AR15/M4 platorms?


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PlayMaker
May 12, 2008, 05:59 PM
Who makes the best AR15/M4 platform closest to military specs for the civilian market?

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Cougfan2
May 12, 2008, 06:05 PM
I would say Colt, but I'm not sure the guns they sell to the civilian market, ie the HBAR series, guns are mil. spec. I believe Bushmaster and Rock River are mil. spec.

Onmilo
May 12, 2008, 06:16 PM
Colt is the licensed manufacturer for the M4 carbine.
Lewis Machine and Tool is a sole source provider for Special Operation Group carbines.
Either would fit the bill.

Number 6
May 12, 2008, 06:49 PM
Colt or LMT. Bushmaster and Rock River are not as close to mil spec. If you are looking for an extremely high end AR then you can also try Noveske.

RockyMtnTactical
May 12, 2008, 11:04 PM
Noveske, no doubt, better than anything you can think of including Colt and LMT. However, they are very pricey and don't give you much more practical improvement over an LMT.

Get an LMT if you are looking for the best quality for the money.

taliv
May 12, 2008, 11:08 PM
noveske may well make a better rifle, but i doubt they are closer to mil spec

Darthbauer
May 12, 2008, 11:11 PM
I also say LMT.

RockyMtnTactical
May 12, 2008, 11:12 PM
Noveske makes stuff that exceeds milspec.

Colt doesn't make a milspec rifle though. LMT is probably closer to milspec, since they use milspec pin sizes and trigger groups.

In reality, no commercial rifle is truly 100% milspec.

taliv
May 12, 2008, 11:29 PM
i'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that "exceeds mil-spec" is pretty ambiguous. for example, "Jewell triggers exceed mil-spec." yeah, if you're talking about how crisp they are. not by a long shot if you're looking for reliability.

you could say the colt accurized rifles exceed mil-spec, same for LMT as they do some "improvements" to their BCGs.

RTFM
May 13, 2008, 07:41 AM
Learn how to search....
Ben there - done that on this issue a bizzilion times here and on the net.

Search is your friend.

H2O MAN
May 13, 2008, 07:56 AM
Colt or Noveske or LMT

RockyMtnTactical
May 13, 2008, 08:35 AM
i'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that "exceeds mil-spec" is pretty ambiguous. for example, "Jewell triggers exceed mil-spec." yeah, if you're talking about how crisp they are. not by a long shot if you're looking for reliability.

you could say the colt accurized rifles exceed mil-spec, same for LMT as they do some "improvements" to their BCGs.

I don't think it is ambiguous. We are talking combat rifles. In that category, Noveske is simply better.

Jewell triggers do not exceed milspec because they are not made for combat.

If we were talking about varmint/target rifles, "milspec" doesn't really apply...

H2O MAN
May 13, 2008, 08:43 AM
RockyMtnTactical
We are talking combat rifles.
In that category, Noveske is simply better.

Why Noveske over Colt and LMT ??

Don't Tread On Me
May 13, 2008, 09:03 AM
Colt 6920

Colt 6520

Colt 6721

LMT comes in a close second. Forget the "pin size" nonsense. The Colt does have more mil-spec quality than LMT. It wouldn't make sense to not go with the higher quality rifle just because it uses slightly larger trigger pin that has zero consequences. I don't know why people cite this as a reason to lower Colt in the ranks of good AR's. There's always those people that emphasize the non-important things. Which is more important? Mil-spec steel grade and treatment or a pin size? If you go by the purist's logic, then forget everything unless you can grab a true M4 off the rack of your local Army base. The thread ends and so does your search.

Novesky is good, but remember - it is a custom AR. It really isn't an assembly line type AR like the Colt or LMT. They are basically a custom shop that makes AR's for duty/combat. That means their concern is usefulness for real-world operators and reliability. Whereas, most other custom shops make AR's for action shooting sports or total accuracy (Wilson, Les Bear, JP etc.)

Expect to pay a lot more for a custom shop rifle.

That means the Colt is the best value for getting the high quality parts, build and QC for the money.

H2O MAN
May 13, 2008, 09:16 AM
Don't Tread On Me Colt 6920

Colt 6520

Colt 6721

LMT comes in a close second. Forget the "pin size" nonsense. The Colt does have more mil-spec quality than LMT. It wouldn't make sense to not go with the higher quality rifle just because it uses slightly larger trigger pin that has zero consequences. I don't know why people cite this as a reason to lower Colt in the ranks of good AR's. There's always those people that emphasize the non-important things. Which is more important? Mil-spec steel grade and treatment or a pin size? If you go by the purist's logic, then forget everything unless you can grab a true M4 off the rack of your local Army base. The thread ends and so does your search.

Novesky is good, but remember - it is a custom AR. It really isn't an assembly line type AR like the Colt or LMT. They are basically a custom shop that makes AR's for duty/combat. That means their concern is usefulness for real-world operators and reliability. Whereas, most other custom shops make AR's for action shooting sports or total accuracy (Wilson, Les Bear, JP etc.)

Expect to pay a lot more for a custom shop rifle.

That means the Colt is the best value for getting the high quality parts, build and QC for the money.


Got it !!


Noveske is to the AR type rifle what Smith Enterprise, Inc. is the the M14 type rifle.

RockyMtnTactical
May 13, 2008, 02:26 PM
LMT comes in a close second. Forget the "pin size" nonsense. The Colt does have more mil-spec quality than LMT. It wouldn't make sense to not go with the higher quality rifle just because it uses slightly larger trigger pin that has zero consequences. I don't know why people cite this as a reason to lower Colt in the ranks of good AR's. There's always those people that emphasize the non-important things. Which is more important? Mil-spec steel grade and treatment or a pin size? If you go by the purist's logic, then forget everything unless you can grab a true M4 off the rack of your local Army base. The thread ends and so does your search.

Wait, so LMT doesn't use milspec steel? Is that what you're saying?

If you're gonna comapre LMT to Colt, use specific examples that contrast those two. Making claims about Colt vs. RRA or some other company when people assume you are talking about LMT is misleading.

Another reason LMT is better than Colt is that they make more accurate barrels. They are one of the only companies that overbores their barrels prior to chrome lining them. This makes for exceptionally accurate chrome lined barrels.

Not milspec, but still "better".

In what way is a Colt "better" than an LMT? Oh that's right, they use tapered FSB pins and dual guard heat shields. :rolleyes:

The only reason I care about trigger groups being milspec, etc.. is because these are commonly upgraded and or replaced part(s). You need uniformity from a combat weapon, and it's much easier to find/buy a milspec sized trigger group than the large pin garbage.

BCM is another AR15 manufacturer (small though) that is pretty darned close to milspec, as is Sabre Defense.

teombe
May 13, 2008, 04:12 PM
I know the Colt-heads will hate me for saying this, but after getting our first LMT lower shipped to us - and inspecting the quality and craftsmanship (as compared to Colt and BCM parts) - there's no way in hell I'd pay my own money for (what Colts go for these days) a Colt when LMT appears in all rights to be its equal... at $300 for a lower, and just over $500 for an upper.

Now, Noveske - All I can say is wow! I may just have to get one of their uppers later this year, if I can stomach the price :)

PlayMaker
May 13, 2008, 05:37 PM
Thanks ALL for your input. It is really appreciated. Sorry 'bout bringing this subject up again, but guessing from the responses it'll never get old. Thanks for settin' this noob straight.

Bartkowski
May 13, 2008, 08:59 PM
LMT makes a great gun. The only thing I don't like is that I don't believe it's parkerized under the FSB. They very nicely made, accurate rifles. Mine was $1000 with tax and transfer for a complete factory built gun.

Customer service is great too.

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