[Treo]

I went to the range yesterday, put maybe 100 rounds through my carry piece. Came home last night cleaned it, put it up & went about my business. ( stick W/ me I'm going somewhere).

Ok long story short I took a second look at it today & it looked dirty so I cleaned it again, filthy.

I also pulled a couple of 1911s out of the safe and cleaned them haven't shot them in months , filthy.

So what's the deal does the cleaning solvent continue to pull carbon out of the barrel after you put the gun up? (like the Army says)

or is there nothing that really get the carbon out?

Or am I just a lousy gun cleaner?

PS I used Hoppe's & Otis ultra bore

[Wildfire]

Hey There;
Sounds more like lead fouling to me. Unless you are useing jacketed ammo only. But if you used any lead ammo, it is like lead fouling. If so it can be removed. Solvents are not always the best way to remove lead.
There is a currly looking brush made of stainless. It is for removing lead. Works very well. If not use a bronze brush and just keep brushing. It will come out sooner or latter. 50, 60 or more strokes is not too many.

If it is not lead. And all you use is jacketed ammo. There really should be no reason for any thing other then copper fouling. Same deal. But there, a good copper solvent will help a lot. Some times soaking over night will help if it's really bad.

[another okie]

It's hard to get a bore clean without a brush.

[Treo]

Bronze brush, copper jacketed bullets letting it them soak in Hoppe's right now

BTW according to the manual that came W/ my M-16 CLP/Breakfree will continue to draw carbon from the "pores" of the metal after you clean it ( of course the also told me I'd have free medical for life) any truth to that?

[geekWithA.45]

Guns are like that.

To get them returned to "nothing but metal", you need several applications of something noxious like brake cleaner over the course of a couple of days.

Few people see the value in going to such lengths.

[Wildfire]

Hey There;
If it is clean , it is clean. Don't worry too much about it. A really bad build up can be a not so good thing but in the right lighting you should be able to see if there is any copper fouling in that bore. Copper solvents will keep drawing out any copper left behind.

[Grizfire]

does the cleaning solvent continue to pull carbon out of the barrel


If you let it sit, and there is still some layer of solvent, and carbon left in the barrel after you put the gun up, then the solvent will continue to work on the carbon in the barrel and break it up. So when you cleaned it again, more came out. You could clean your barrel first, set it aside as you clean the other parts, then come back to your barrel. :)

[Sir Aardvark]

You could try the Outers Foul Out electric bore cleaner.
It will get out all the lead and copper.
Here's a write-up done on it by Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=593

[sm]

Barrel Cleaning Information

http://www.schuemann.com/

My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...

Good luck,

Wil

[Treo]

Nope I aint buying that SM I use Otis Ultra Bore & my bore looks really shiny but when I punch it the patch comes out black & not just black but BA-LACK.

BTW generic factory reload gunshow ammo.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
is there any greenish blueish color to it ? If so that would be copper.
But just Black . Thats weird you keep getting it. I have fired a lot of .45 acp and never had that happen. Copper yes.

[Treo]

OK here's what I got 2 Guns 1 is a CZ75B in .40 S&W 2 is a RIA in .45 ACP.

Both copper jacketed FMJ rounds

Both used both approx. 10 years old (bought both used have no idea how they were maintained before me)

When I shine a light down both bores they appear clean

but when I put a patch down the Bore it come out black & I can see some copper in the bore & the patches have green on them.

I am leaving both really wet W/ Hoppe's tonight & clean them again tomorrow

[Wildfire]

Hey there:
That's it. Copper. It will take you a while too get it all out. Keep doing what you are doing. it will come out . Lots and lots of brushing will help.
There are many copper solvents out there , some are very strong and others are not so strong. Faster is not always better.
that copper may have been in there long before you got then guns.
i am not a big fan of the really strong solvents. I'd rather brush more. But soaking over night a few times will help.
you are getting there.
have fun and shoot straight.

[10-Ring]

Patience, elbow grease, your favorite solvent and patches...lots & lots o' patches :D

[For Freedom]

Yes it does.

[Omnivore]

Brush with lots of #9-- get it good and wet, then soak for 20 min or more.

The soaking is what does it. It took me years to learn this.

Clean the brush - copper solvents attack the copper in the brush too (bronze brush).

Brush again.

Patch with solvent a few times. Use a jag/patch combo that's good and tight in the bore.

Clean the brush.

Patch dry. The patches will now in fact come out reasonably clean after just a few swipes. If not, you have a really fouled barrel or one that's pitted. A pitted bore never seems to come clean. I had a CZ-52 barrel that was pitted. Replaced it. No more trouble. Shoots straighter too.

Schillen recommends not trying to remove all traces of copper fouling from their rifle barrels, on the theory that your first shot or two are going to put that copper right back (precision rifle shooters are known to fire a "fouling shot" prior to shooting for the money, as it puts their POI/POA where it will be for the next several shots. The first shot from a clean bore will shoot to a different POI). They and others have said that overly intensive cleaning is more often the cause of undue wear than is under-cleaning. My Springfield M1A user's manual says that too.

[BlackBearME]

Heh, I saw the thread title and thought to myself "I wonder how many posts it takes for sm to come in here and say 'what's bore cleaning?'"

[EBRDude]

I use a cotton mop with Remington Bore Cleaner. It is like a very mild abrasive I guess, but it removes all fouling and dirt.

[Stump Water]

I'll have to agree with what sm said/quoted... for rifle barrels anyway.

Sure, I run an oily patch down the barrel if the rifle is going to be put away for any length of time, but using all of those solvents to completely strip a barrel will reverse the break-in that I so painstakingly did.

[Treo]

I soaked both barrels in Hoppe's all night I could actually SEE the green in the .45 before I swabbed it. the .40 looked ok but I could still see some copper in the grooves.

I think at this point I've got every thing I can get out of those barrels, with out damaging them.So I'm gonna call it good

[grimjaw]

I just use a nylon brush, don't bother with brass. No gun that I actually LIKE stays clean in my house for long, anyway.

jm

[Guntalk]

You might want to try some M-Pro 7. Very good solvent.

[the naked prophet]

How clean does the bore ever REALLY NEED to get? As long as you aren't trying to do 500+ yard precision shots, just keeping the layer of gunk off the barrel is fine. A few scrub-a-dubs with a brass brush and solvent, then some dry-oiled-dry patches, and you're good.

[RTFM]

Hey TOM!
Love your shows sir - all of em - Keep up the good work.

I use Mpro-7 and it is good stuff. But try this, get your gun as clean as you can with Mpro-7 and then run a patch with the Otis cleaner down the hole.

Like you never cleaned it once.

Told the boys at Mpro and Otis my findings at the SHOT show 07 and it baffled them both. Although the Otis guys liked it more....

It does not work in reverse though, clean a bore with Otis then go to Mpro... and it stays clean.
Start with Mpro and got to Otis... black black and more black.

[nplant]

I don't see why you'd want to remove every last trace of any fouling in a barrel. What's the point? Are you going to be that much more accurate? I'd argue that for every minute past ten that you spend cleaning your bore, you're wasting your time. At worst, you could be actually microscopically destroying your bore, and at best, you change your point of impact a tiny fraction of an inch at 25 yards, and then after two shots, it will return to where it was before you spent ten hours cleaning it.

So really, what is the point?

[Robert Hairless]

My own observation is that the bore gets clean whenever the person doing the cleaning decides to stop.

[sm]

I stop before most folks do.

*wink*

I do not do barrel break in either, as I subscribe to Gabe McMillan's take on that , and Mentors were sharing this, before I knew who McMillan was.


Lead-a-way is needed for "some" lead bullet use, then again, if the loading is correct, one does not get all "leaded up".

Some folks have to push the limits, use the biggest, mostest, hardeset, fastest...

Less is More.

One mind find they do better with loads the guns were spec'd for, with bullet weights they were designed to shoot, these shoot POA/POI and provide longer barrel life and accuracy.

Fact is, lead is a mechanical deal, not a chemical deal.
Get the Lead-a-Way, or Lewis Lead Remover.

Copper
Hoppe's No. 9 even the new formula, is still be best.

Haste makes waste.

i.e. dried egg on a plate.
Get in a hurry, using harsh chemicals, scrubbers, improper methods and all, to get that dried egg off and - maybe scratch the plate, chip the plate, even drop and break the plate cutting yourself and having to deal with being cut, blood in the sink, sharp shards in the sink, water, concerns of someone else getting cut...

Just set the plate into the sink with a stopper or dish pan, and let it soak with soapy water.
Go do something else, enjoy life, play with the kids, the dawg, read a book, take a nap...

That egg will come right off, rinse right off, and not hurt the plate, less work,and less fuss.

Life is too short to work at making something easy - difficult.

*yep*


I had one barrel from a 1911 of mine that only had about 1 1/2" of rifling left near the muzzle.
It was still combat accurate in this Bone Stock Colt 1911.
Just I had another bone stock Colt barrel and thought it was neat I had one I had shot so much to look through, so I/we stuck the new one in.
Old Gov't model, built as they did in the old days.

Yes, it takes a few rounds to shoot a barrel to where the rifling is gone.
Lots and lots of 200 gr Lead HG#68 bullets, and lots and lots of 230 gr hardball, Flying Ashtrays and whatever else.

I would change from Lead to Jacketed from time to time.
This gun was being shot a "little" , just load up 100 7 rd mags and go shoot.
For a bit, I was shooting no less than 500 rds a day and most times 1,000 times a day.

Plus shotguns being shot from 100-rds a day to 250 rds a day - thereabouts, I had slowed down some on shotguns for a bit.

WE were all doing this, we did not have time to clean - inspect and maintain we did, chamber, extraction and mags we did...
bores? Nope, not unless it got wet, or muddy then whatever to get that out.


Serious Situations.

That clean bore you can eat off of will keep you alive.

1. Two Police show up, the armorer is the only one that can keep these guns up.
They had been on a prowler call, and later APB for a shooter the night before they arrived to shoot duty guns.

One handgun fired one shot, the other gun two shots and the shotgun only one time.

You could eat off them barrels!
Those chambers had NOT been attended to.
Nor had any of the mechanism that lets a gun run.

These cops turned white as a sheet!

2. Fella got shot, he came out of his deal all right, he was lucky.
He cleaned his gun after he only shot it one mag.
He cleaned that gun with every new gun solvent ,and oil and whatever else that came out.
He cleaned a clean gun all the time.

a. his chamber was not attended to, nor feed, extract and what makes the gun run.
b. he improperly did so, at some point just before evil showed up.

You could see the prettiest lands and grooves, pretty colors looking through his bore.
His gun had no scratches, it was "perfect" except when he needed to deal with a threat, it would not do so.

He got lucky, real lucky.
I was in on this deal being looked into and me and looked that gun over real well.


I don't worry about bores, I carry a dirty gun, and I do not top off mags.
My choice, as none of you have ever been with me, when shots were fired at me and I doubt if any of you will be there if I am being shot at again.

[moooose102]

i posted a while ago about cleaning solvent going bad with age. it DOES! i dont know how old yours is, but if it has been a while since you bought new, do it. but to get a barrel REALLY clean, it takes a LOT of time. i bought a kel tec 380 a little while ago, and during cleaning it (remember, this was a brand new gun that i had just put 150 rounds through) it took me 4 hours the first night, and three the next day. copper burns into the barrel pretty hard. the last thing i did (but i have not had a chance to duplicate it, so i dont know if it was just luck or not) was soaking the barrel in a shallow pan of copper solvent (hoppes no 9 bench rest copper solvent) for 1 hour, then scrubbing it with a bronze brush. i THINK that SUBMERGING the barrel allowed the solvent to penetrate UNDER the copper which aided in its removal. THEN, THE BARREL WAS CLEAN! fyi, same barrel, same cleaning session, i tried the hoppes elite and sweets 7.62 copper solvents, i noticed nothing spectacular about their cleaning abilities. i will try soaking a barrel in both as i did with the hoppes no 9 b.r.c.s., but the sweets, can only be soaked for 15 minutes at a time. give it a try, i hope it works! p.s. nplant does have a point, about the next time you shoot it, after 2 shots (i think it will take more) there will be copper deposited again anyway. but, leaving that copper just cant be good for it either. i have started experimenting with moly bullet lube, for just that reason. at least with moly, what is being left behind is a lubricant.

[Guntalk]

>But try this, get your gun as clean as you can with Mpro-7 and then run a patch with the Otis cleaner down the hole. <

Good info. Thanks!

[sixgunner455]

I wipe out bores, but I do not worry about getting them terribly shiny any more. When I had armorers looking at my M16, yeah, I went for as clean as I could, but that bore is chrome lined -- it's pretty easy to get it shiny.

Anything that will dissolve copper will remove chrome, so if you have a chrome lined chamber and bore, you don't want to let that stuff sit in your barrel. Don't need it, anyway. Just some regular solvent and patches or a bore snake will get it as clean as it needs to be.

Pistols, I do clean the bores, but just to make sure there's no build up. I don't fuss it too much. If I've shot a lot of lead, I'll check for leading, and the Lewis system comes out -- much easier than scrubbing up and down with a brush. Just pull the Lewis screen through it and be done with it. Usually not a problem, anyway.

I understand that a lot of copper build-up is detrimental to benchrest levels of accuracy, but that's not my game, so I'm not worried about it.

[chriske]

It used to drive me crazy, never ever to get guns absolutely 101 %
clean. It got to me so badly, I used to spend more time cleaning than
shooting.
During a recent rather hectic 5-month period, however, during which I had to choose carefully what to do with the little spare time I had, I discovered to my amazement that NO gun self-destructs if it gets used when dirty.
I still clean, although no longer obsessively, worry less & shoot more.

[Treo]

Well as an up date I left both bores wet W/ Hoppe's for about two days & swabbed them out W/ a good tight patch last night (both came out bright green) and both bores looke fine.

The issue wasn't OCD cleaning, both bores had a BUNCH of copper in them if I can look into the bore & see it it's (IMO) excessive.

I've been using Otis Ultrabore on my pistols for a while & what I'm finding is that it gets the carbon out but doesn't touch the copper. so I'm gonna stick W/ the Hoppe's

[berkbw]

It is really NOT rocket science. Except for in the holes in the steel of micron size, which you can not see without LOTS of help, anything which does not bond with/into the gun can be removed. Anything.

It helps to 1st determine what it is that needs to be removed (I know.. DUH). Basically, the usual suspects are 1) Carbon, 2) Copper, 3)Lead. Unless you shoot a mix of lead and jacketed/coated ammo, you will need to only worry about one or the other. If you shoot cheap, dirty, crap ammo, the money you saved by buying it will be a trade-off for cleaning the carbon crap it leaves.

Lead and copper need different solvents for removal - as, in general, does carbon. There are THOUSANDS of serious shooters whose bbls are cleaner than anything we eat off of.

You might try using clean ammo/powder + a single type of bullet mat'l. Preferably, don't use a brass brush if you will be using it a lot - causes wear. Weapon Shield is a nice carbon cleaner/lube, but there are a zillion others, going decades back to the introduction of TriFlo, CLP, etc. Militec-1 helps keep the other parts of your gun easier to clean. Take a bbl snake to the range to use when you're done shooting.

Feel free to email me if you continue to have these problems.

b-

[tkkr]

I believe schuemann claims not to use certain commercial brands of bore-cleaners on stainless barrels. It doesnt state which kinds but im sure a trip to google would fill in the blanks, Im going to go ahead and trust schuemann on this one.

http://www.schuemann.com/Content/clean2.htm

[Shrinkmd]

How about shooting surplus, though? I worry about the corrosive salts getting trapped under layers of carbon fouling and copper, so it seems to make sense to try a little harder to avoid that. Then again, the guy on Box o' Truth cleans milsurps with not much more than Windex and calls it a day, right?

I usually let foaming bore cleaner sit for a couple hours, then some Mpro7, one or two 10 minute rounds of Barnes Copper, then another of Mpro7 to wash it out. My bore seems pretty shiny and clean (and this is after 100 or so rounds of nasty corrosive surplus)

To each his own, I guess.

[Treo]

TO BERKBW: Thanks for the info & the offer of help, I may just take you up on it.

TO SM:
Question, are you saying that cleaning the bore is unnecessary or undesirable? I caught the part about cleaning the moving parts being more important but don't you think it's hard on the gun to let it get that nasty?

[mindwip]

My dad had a friend that was a gunsmith and shot a lot, competitions and such. After non corrosive ammo came out and became common place the gunsmith told my dad that there was no real reason to clean your barrel with good ammo, the act of bullets going down the tube with keep rust and stuff at bay. Now if its long time storage throwing on some oil will not hurt.

I follow that rule for all my weapons, i have had no problems and the bullets still land where i point. The only thing i do clean is the action as that is the only place where stuff does build up and when it does it effects your gun. I do have boresnakes for my weapons that i run through after a bit, more to make me feel like i am doing good then actuality for any real cleaning reason. More so to verify that the gun is empty before i put it away.


A question to ask, has anyone took a rifle with modern day clean ammo and fired it and not cleaned it for 3,000 rds verse taking a super clean rifle and fired it after it shot 3,000 rds. Who is more actuate? Which one has more wear and tear?

I have heard that after cleaning a rifle the shots do not go where they normally do, but after a few it goes back to where it was. So does that mean that now after 3 shots your bore is getting dirty and its back up to being POA. So why clean so you can have 3 shots that get dirty.

Then theres all that scrubbing and steel on steel action when cleaning? I have heard of more weapons ruined by cleaning/ cleaned wrong then i have from dirty barrels shooting modern day ammo. I mean will lead eat your barrel? will copper? it would seem if anything it would protect it from moister in the air?

[sm]

TO SM:
Question, are you saying that cleaning the bore is unnecessary or undesirable? I caught the part about cleaning the moving parts being more important but don't you think it's hard on the gun to let it get that nasty?

No sir.

There is no nasty, instead the bore just gets shinier and shinier.

Exceptions would be not using good ammunition.
Lead or copper bullets if too soft, too hard, or trying to hot round a round can cause problems.


treo,

I get these brushes from the auto parts store, NAPA carries these, other franchises do , as well as hardware stores.
They go by the name "acid brushes" or "test tube brushes".

These are available in different diameters, to fit different calibers.
These are on twisted wire with a small loop on the end.

Think a bore brush on twisted wire, except the brush part is at least twice if not three times as long.
I am not real sure what the brush is, it is not bronze or brass, nor nylon.
Just a stiff brush that feels like a stiff bristle brush (hair).

With the barrel removed, I smush the loop and stick a piece of cotton T shirt, in that loop.
I twist and turn that brush to clean chamber, then punch on through.

I also have one I bend to fit when I do not take the gun apart, so it fits when the slide is racked back.
I twist and turn to clean chamber.

I know from shooting a gun, what it wants after so many rounds as far as clean, inspect, maintain, and lube the important parts to allow the gun to feed, shoot, extract, repeat.
Meaning I run the gun, and look after so many rounds a long with taking note as to what gets dirty and where and how in fire control and other important areas.

I am serious, I may run 100 rds through my Kel-Tec P-11, and just pipe clean the extraction, breechface, and chamber (not even use the aforementioned acid brush,) top of mags and a wee bit when depressed, drop of oil on rails...
Folks think I have "cleaned" my gun.

If I take it apart to access the barrel, and while apart just wipe off with a cloth, use a pipe cleaner and toothbrush, and someone looks down the barrel, they think I spent a lot of time to clean that barrel.
It only takes a minute, still they think I spent a lot of time with brushes , and patches .

I've run that same gun 500, even 1000 rds in day, and treated the bbl the same way, and folks thought the same thing.
Heck , some will see me do this, and cannot believe it.


I am not being lazy, instead I focus on that which makes the gun reliable.

[Hook686]

May 12th, 2008, 06:13 PM #4

treo wrote:


... Bronze brush, copper jacketed bullets letting it them soak in Hoppe's right now

BTW according to the manual that came W/ my M-16 CLP/Breakfree will continue to draw carbon from the "pores" of the metal after you clean it ( of course the also told me I'd have free medical for life) any truth to that?


Well I think you might have a chance at the free medical for life if you are service connected injured. Otherwise I guess it depends upon the U.S. financial position. Currently upwards to a trillion dollars in debt does not make free medical look all that promising for non-service connected vets ... recall the Walter Reed scenario where wounded troops from Iraq were living in uncared for filth.

I hope it works for you man. Service connected injuries are a debt we need take care of, as a people.

[NeveraVictimAgain]

On the bottle of Hoppe's it says something about for really dirty guns you coat it with bore cleaner, then let it sit overnight, then clean out the bore again.

[NeveraVictimAgain]

One time there was a report of shots fired in the neighborhood. The cops knew I had a pistol ( just one at the time ). They asked when was the last time I shot it and I replied "At the range a couple of months ago." The cop, who apparently had heard I'm fairly intelligent, said "And you cleaned it after you used it" and I replied "Yes". He inspected my gun and I offered to break it down for him. It was a Makarov with a chrome plated barrel. The barrel was so clean it looked like a mirror. The cop thanked me for my cooperation and left.

[moooose102]

you know, i just had another one of those "scary thoughts" of mine. i wonder if it would help in you lubed copper bullets with, say, liquid alox. it is supposed to be so good for lead. i wonder if it would work for copper. the biggest reason you get metal fouling, of any type, is because of the metal to metal contact. the very fine pours and jagged edges of the bore grabs @ peices of the bullets as they pass down the barrel unlubricated. i know, that is the way it has been for a long, long time. and it works ok, it just leaves copper or lead behind. since there HAS to be friction because we NEED the bullet to spin in order to be accurate, it is something we HAVE to live with. i just like to minimize the friction as much as possible, if i can. maybe some of those "tubbs final bore finishing bullets" are not such a bad idea. if the bore gets smoother, there would at least be less jagged edges to grab at the copper / lead.

[Treo]

My biggest concern W/this was that I could SEE the copper along the edge of the lands in both barrels. I would think that would really increase the pressure in the barrel through friction.

[texas bulldog]

depends...

if i'm cleaning it, yes the bore gets clean...with lots of time and brushing/swabbing.

if my wife's cleaning it, no it does not get clean...until i go back and re-clean it for her later.

there is a drastic difference between the bore on her SKS and the bore on mine, even though mine has been shot about twice as much.

[sm]

I have been ordered to drop my weapon in a serious situation, once when a neighbor, a US Marshall, hollered at me for assistance and others to call "officer needs assistance.

She and I both in jeans, and all. LEOs rolled in, various agencies, hard and fast.

She was able to drop her gun on the grass, mine hit the hard asphalt.
Both of our guns were dirty.
We had just come back from shooting them at a private range.

US Marshal partner of hers rolled in, and vouched for us.
Still before she did, we both were cuffed, on the ground while everyone got sorted and "These guns are dirty and smell like they have just been fired".

US Marshall kept her mouth shut, and I followed her lead.
She and I got the two Rookies Cops, and they sure were looking to make a arrest and make their bones.

It was cleared up, and hell hath no fury like a seasoned US Marshall lady chewing rookies butts about fingers on triggers and poking folks with muzzles.

Then the Rookies heard it again and again from other LEO agencies, and then their Bosses.

--
I was assisting with folks on a private range.
I did not want a instructor cert or license, on purpose , assisting with CCW and other things we did.
There are reasons I do not, nor did the other person , a lady did not.

We had a couple of smaller ranges we used for more private matters, like a shoot house.

So some CCW students, ladies group, had been through the lecture part, and all and time for range stuff.
WE had guns.
What do you want? WE had it.
Students tried various guns, same guns with different stocks, (like 8 Model 10s all with different stocks for example) calibers, holsters and all.

I had been doing stuff with another bunch, and in a truck, needed to drive down to where these ladies were going to be...

I have over 4 dozen guns, mostly handguns, and shotguns, and not a one is clean.
I have my CCWs, the cab has guns, the truck bed has guns, and I have holsters and ...

I get Barney the Rookie , out of his jurisdiction.
It seems my truck was involved in a armed robbery.
I was only on the main road for about a 1/2 mile all I needed to be.

I got guns, ammo , holsters, and canvas bank bags with ammo, armored car company canvas bags with more fun stuff , and hulls and ...

I look great sitting on my butt, on hart asphalt with large gravel, behind a truck after I handcuff myself to the bumper.

Does he believe the business card, call anyone, anything?
No.
He is going on about all these guns and I keep my mouth shut, though I wanted to stick his shotgun bbl up his butt as I got fed up with him pointing it at me, with his trigger on the finger.

My bunch comes looking, and find me.
Now I have a retired SWAT buddy of mine laughing but suggesting Barney just shoot me and it will look great when the Mayor gives him a key to the city, and promotes him to Chief of Police for busting such a dangerous criminal.

I have other "friends" some in LEO, going on how it must have been one hell of an armed robbery as none of them guns were clean.

This gets cleared up...upset Barney...

About 2 weeks later Barney shows up as he needs to shoot quals in a few days and needs practice.
He is carrying on how his gee-whiz gun is the bestest thing since sliced bread, he ...only he...can clean and inspect his gun, unlike anyone else on the force whom has to let the armorer do theirs.

I really like one way mirrors, I really do, as I am watching and listening to all this.

He goes out to shoot and his gun will not fire but one round.
Our folks look at it, and one could eat off the bore - after the case was knocked out.
His Back up gun does not go bang at all...

I ease out, and he turns white as a sheet.
I on purpose eased out with a Old Colt 1911, that is dirty, I mean touch it and your hands get dirty, we had run about 400 rds through it earlier.
I rack the slide and add lube, and it rubs off this black goo.

I run about 3 mags fast, the gal runs 3 mag, and some others shoot this dirty gun.

His chambers were so gritty and dirty they would not feed and extract.
WE had to knock the cases out with a dowel.

You could eat off his bores though.

He wrote another check that day with his mouth his butt could not cover.
Revolvers suck being old fashioned, especially snub nose like J frames , and girls cannot shoot.

SWAT buddy showed him what Model 19 will do at 50 yard, as he had to shoot at 50 yd for quals back in his day.
The owner's wife, that was a heck of a shooter, and had decided to be the best she could with a J frame , and is.
Beat this fella using J frames, in times, scores using his issued gee-whiz semi autos.

Don't toss this gal a Glock,or HK, or Sig, oh she can shoot one, she hates them.
She has her preferences, and one is a J frame.

She beat the local whiz kid lady instructor with some frigging official "gun school" that opened up and then closed real fast with a Glock 26 one time.
Ms know it all had a whopping 4 years of firearm experience and had been to gun schools.
Our gal was raised around guns, and how to shoot, and never attended a known gun school and had stopped a threat.

What is the adage about experience trumps bull manure?

[mindwip]

Straight from Marlins manual .22/.17 edition page 5 free to download from there website


Cleaning the Bore

Since modern ammunition burns very clean-
ly, with normal use it is not necessary to
clean the bore of your rifle. However, if it gets
wet, or if any foreign material gets into the
action or barrel, cleaning as described below
is recommended.

[moooose102]

Straight from Marlins manual .22/.17 edition page 5 free to download from there website well, for the most part. .22's have very well lubricated bullets, and drive down the barrel at good velocity and pressure.
but when you get into magnum rifle and hi performance pistol cartridges, with copper jacketed bulles, with multiple tons of force, i think they NEED cleaning!
a couple of months ago it took me nearly a WEEK of cleaning my guns to get all the copper out, which had built up for several years.
so, imo, centerfire rifles and handguns NEED to be cleaned periodicly. maybe not after every shoot, but every so often. depending on how a person shoots.
a person that shoots large strings at a time, is going to need to clean more often than a person with a single shot of the same caliber.
again, imo, because of all the extra heat allowing the pores to open up in the barrel and collect tiny peices of copper, which when the barrel cools off, becomes imbedded into the barrel. every string adds more, and more. eventually, it messes up the rifleing and accuracy falls off. and probably, pressure increases.

[sixgunner455]

How about shooting surplus, though? I worry about the corrosive salts getting trapped under layers of carbon fouling and copper, so it seems to make sense to try a little harder to avoid that. Then again, the guy on Box o' Truth cleans milsurps with not much more than Windex and calls it a day, right?


The ammonia in the Windex neutralizes the corrosive elements, and the amount of liquid kind of rinses them out. When shooting corrosive milsurp ammo or blackpowder, you have the same issues, and hot soapy water, or Windex, is used for the same reasons -- to get all the hygroscopic and acidic elements that are burned out of the barrel.

It's BP history, and early cartridge gun history, combined with military tradition and training, that has folks convinced that you have to clean a gun immediately upon finishing using it or you're risking the integrity, function, and lifespan of your weapon.

I have a Yugo SKS that I had to replace a part in the gas system (the gas port that has a cutoff for shooting rifle grenades) because it was eroded by corrosive ammo not being cleaned off it. Sure, the barrel and bolt were cleaned, you can tell and they're in great shape, but it was doubling and jamming all the time, and I figured that the eroded gas port was the culprit. So I pulled it out and stuck in a new one, and it's been perfect since. I don't shoot corrosive ammo through it, so it should be good for my grandkids to play with (my oldest kid is 11).

Not shooting corrosive ammo? Not a problem. I clean my .22 pistol when the action gets sluggish, usually at about 2000 rounds. Check the bore, clean the chamber, breach face, bolt, extractor, and clean out all the crud that has built up around the chamber. Usually end up using a toothpick to scrape it all out.

When I first got it, my first gun, I would clean it every time I fired it. But then I got more guns, and I started cleaning one gun a day after a range trip, and then started going to the range with dirty guns. They still work. Defensive pistols get checked carefully, wiped out, but the bore? Not really.

The only one that I have trouble with leaving dirty is, believe it or not, my AR. And it's not because it doesn't work dirty -- it does. It doesn't mind being dirty at all, if it has enough lube on it. Run'r wet, she don't mind being a little dirty. Has a chrome-lined bore, anyway, so running a bore snake down it takes care of cleaning the bore, if its got anything it in. No scrubbing necessary.

It's just that military training starts making me feel ... wrong ... about leaving any dirt on it, so I don't usually leave it dirty after several hundred rounds. But if I only shoot a magazine or two through it, I just add a little lube and leave it.

If the shooting range was dusty, wind blowing dirt around, of course they all get cleaned after. But just shooting? Nah, there's nothing in the ammo that will hurt them.

[Treo]

QUOTE: "I have over 4 dozen guns, mostly handguns, and shotguns, and not a one is clean."

sm,
I notice that you say this frequently, What I'm not getting is are you saying that cleaning the gun is a waste of time (except for the actual moving parts) or are you saying it's flat out bad for the gun?

The only weapon I've ever actually fired in combat was a 198 towed howitzer ( think very large single shot breech loading rifle) I KNOW we put at least 5000 rounds through that pig during the ground offensive and never cleaned it one time. We did however have to ream the primer hole a couple of times. Point being that even with extremely corrosive & filthy ammunition that cannon did in fact go boom every single time I pulled tail.

[rbernie]

What I'm not getting is are you saying that cleaning the gun is a waste of time (except for the actual moving parts) or are you saying it's flat out bad for the gun? A clean gun is an anomoly. A gun is only clean for one shot; for all other shots it's in some state other than clean. It runs differently than a dirty gun, in many cases.

More to the point, many folk take their weapon apart to clean it and when they reassemble it manage to jam something up the wrong way. It's now unreliable at best and broken at worst, and the person carrying it has no way of knowing it until they need it. Hopefully, they don't need it until the next range session.

Never carry a clean weapon. If you've not shot it to verify it's proper functioning since its last cleaning, it's not been proven worthy of SD use.

I suspect that is what sm is trying to say. If not - I said it. :D

I'll generally wipe down a weapon after use; getting carbon off exposed surfaces. I'll often open the action and run a bore snake down the barrel one or twice a month to knock off the carbon. But I'll never carry a weapon that's been field-stripped or detail-stripped for cleaning.

[Treo]

QUOTE:"Never carry a clean weapon. If you've not shot it to verify it's proper functioning since its last cleaning, it's not been proven worthy of SD use."

Now that makes perfect sense.

[sm]

I suspect that is what sm is trying to say. If not - I said it.

Yep.

I was born in the mid 50s and some of my mentors were in the Military, some even Gunny's, ( I had more than one "gunny") and others were LEOs.

I am dead serious, when I share Gunny would take down his 1911, clean, inspect, including the USGI 7 rd mag, and then put it back, do a function check, then actually shoot the gun with the mags.
When done, he would insert a full 7 rd mag, chamber a round, and Cock & Lock.

LEOs carried Model 10 or Model 19s when I coming up.
Revolvers, had the stocks removed, and side plates left on , they inspected, cleaned , lubed, and still fired a cylinder to know for sure, the gun worked.


I am a product of my raisin' and times.

Bores were attended as needed, with proper technique and tools.

Gun were only broken down to (a) skill sets we had of that gun , (b) just what was needed.

Do not ask me the last time I took a 1911 all the way down, I could not tell you.
Nor could I tell you when I removed a sideplate off a revolver.

Heck, it has been so long, I would most likely have to read, or watch a gun smith gal, or guy I know do it.
I am not ashamed to admit this.

I inspect and maintain, and from shooting a gun dirty, I know what a gun will do after so many rounds, and it becomes an extension of me, so I know when it needs attention.

I was raised to not mess with what is not broken.
There is a balance of every thing working together, so if one thing is messed with, that affects something else, and that affects something else and - Domino Theory.
That is why I personally do not (a) use a 1911 smaller than the Commander size , (b) add duck butts, and full length guide rods, ambi safeties, polish feed ramps and the like.

I might smooth the back of a hammer, smooth (dehorn) any rough spots external and my very special tweak, is a gold bead front sight.


A firearm is a dangerous tool.
It is also a serious tool, and to me and mine, and those that mentored me, that gun has to run!

I have had folks arrive to the range, draw and a CCW they have carried, and the gun will not run.

I have my life experiences, and while mine are not as numerous, or serious others, mine were real, and I own them.
My dirty gun fired, it ran, and it stopped a threat.

That is what it was supposed to do, and it did.
I am typing because that gun(s) were fired after being inspected, maintained, lubed, no matter if the gun just had the top taken off, or a gunsmith took it all the way down.
Those gun were fired, with mags, before I carried it.

I personally cannot let go of how I was raised.
I am still around because I did/do how mentored.

I carry a dirty gun, I do not top off mags , a round is chambered...

[Treo]

QUOTE: " personally cannot let go of how I was raised.
I am still around because I did/do how mentored."

Understood, unfortunately the Army kinda beat the whole " the weapon must be immaculate to function properly" into my head and it seems to be very hard to let go of.

QUOTE: " I do not top off mags"
Just out of curiosty, is there a rationale behind that, or is it simply a prefference?

QUOTE: " , a round is chambered.."

That's a given.

[sm]

treo,

I had some interesting mentors.
Everybody did the same thing if you will.

Today, I am in places where I have to drop mag, rack gun, show clear and stow a gun.
I put the round that was in chamber, back into mag.
I know where that round is, and so do the folks stowing the round.
For us both it is a safety concern and offers peace of mind.

I run with folks of like mind, or I admit I pass forward to folks as I passed to.
My circle is tight, and I have some trusted folks, just as I always have.
One of the gals can toss me her gun, and I know it will run, and I know that gun was not topped off, so I know that 1911 has 7 rounds, as we run 7 rd mags.
I know a Kel-Tec P-11 has 10 rds total, is another example.

So if a P-11 needs to be busted down by one of the ladies, I drop mag, rack slide, put the ctg in the mag and she knows where all her rounds all - we all know where those rounds are.
Around new shooters, the kids, anyone, we know that gun does not have a loose round somewhere.

Safety is one reason, another is reliability on a 1911 for instance the platform was designed to take a round off the top of the mag.
The mag is part of the running of the 1911 platform, and it goes back to if I change something, it can/might/ will change something else, and I don't want the Domino Theory.

I am 53, and set in my ways, I have fired a 1911 too many times and that gun fires 7 times.
When I fire number 6, I drop mag, insert fresh mag and don't go to slide lock - If I do my part.

Repetition becomes habit - habit becomes faith.

I prefer to carry single action (1911 , BHP) , Revolvers, so in essence Double Action Only (DAO) and some years ago when asked to test and evaluate the P-11 I did, and that is nothing more that a plastic double action revolver that gets fed by a mag.
That is a niche gun, mine has always been reliable, and I shot only that gun for sometime to be as one with it.

When I shoot, my thumb will "snick" off a safety, even if I am shooting a Revolver, or P-11.

Another quirk I picked up from mentors if you will.
If matters are serious, or I am hurt, or whatever reason I am under stress, motor skills are degraded - I don't want to have to think if the safety goes up, or down , or is this gun a Decocker, or DA/SA...

Safeties snick down on a 1911, even on a revolver, or P-11 , my thumb is going down...

Weak handed, my index will go down as well.

I have nothing against new guns, and folks having a variety, heck I have an attachment to Beretta small caliber Tip-Up guns -
Minx, Jetfire and Bobcat.

My concern is folks are safe, have guns that fit them, that run , and have the skill sets to shoot that gun effectively.

These do not have to be the same guns I prefer, or even like.

I will not be at your gunfight - Awerbuck

Wise words, and Awerbuck shares with that, after he shares the pros and cons of various shotguns /guns period, get what fits you, know it like a body part, and what it takes to keep it running.

The bore might not attention to run, that fire control might though.

[Treo]

QUOTE:" I don't want to have to think if the safety goes up, or down , or is this gun a Decocker, or DA/SA.."

Thank you for validating my decision to only carry one gun, one way. CZ75B decocked. Pull , point , shoot.

DW carries a CZ- 82 decocked, in the unlikely event that we switch guns there's no learning curve to get behind.

[sm]

treo,

It is all good.
To thine own self be true.

To me, there is no "us vs them" amongst firearm owners.
Bore cleaning should not divide firearm owners.
Still it does, as some I know do not agree with me.

To thine self be true.
So if only one person that reads this thread gets to thinking that perhaps a little less time on that bore, but more time spent on feed, chamber, fire, extract repeat - then to me it is worth being thought ill of by however many.

I care, I don't want anyone getting into a serious situation, and if they do, I want their gun to run.

[mindwip]

sm

Thanks for the tip and reasoning behind cleaning your weapon then shooting it before you put it back on duty. So far i have always cleaned my pistols after a range season or on a long weekend, now i will plan on cleaning them right before i head out to the range. You learn something new every day:D

[Hungry Seagull]

Hm.

I have been cleaning the weapons a little and wiping off the outside a bit. Before they go to the range.

I suppose all things considered the weapons do well without excessive :scrutiny:

Now, Im a concerned about bronze brushes. Do I need to switch to stainless brush? Or just carry on hauling lead out of there with cotton pads?