44 mag. vs. 454 Casull


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aerod1
May 15, 2008, 02:24 PM
What is the difference in power between a 44 mag and a 454? There is a discussion among friends. One saying the 454 is around 1.5 times as powereful and the other saying the 454 is 2 times as powerful as the 44 mag.
What is the best overall measure to determine the power of a specific cartridge?

Thanks for the help.

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SoCalShooter
May 15, 2008, 02:27 PM
Well 454 is as its name implies .454 and a .44mag is a .42 and if I remember correctly a 454 casull is loaded with more powder than a 44mag and the casing is definetly larger.

Both are good cartridges but as for overall specifics you would need to know the ft/lb of forces it can exhibit on an object and the FPS and to be fair to both cartridges you would have to use a standard factory load to compare them.

Rachen
May 15, 2008, 02:32 PM
.454 Casull is much more powerful, twice the muzzle energy of the standard .44 magnum factory load. Very good hunter...that is if your wrists can handle it.

Speaking of "magnum" and "wildcat rounds", there really is no need to invest so much in something just because it is brand spanking new and packs "ooh, I just sh*t my pants" muzzle blast and recoil.

A .44 magnum can do everything that a .454 Casull or .500 Smith And Wesson can do. And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.

Which makes me want to quote an old quote from the old frontiersmen days. "In the end, it is really not about the gun, but about the shooter".

mjrodney
May 15, 2008, 02:59 PM
Hardly quantitive by any means, but this past weekend, a fellow took up a position to my right with a .44 Mag long barrel revolver.

Along comes another fellow, to my left, with an equally as long revolver in .45 Casull.

The range has no dividers between stations.

Boom goes the .44 Mag.

Barrooom goes the Casull.

Whoa horse.

Forget it. I went and sat down until the guy on my left was through. The flame that belched out of that cylinder gap would have lit my cigar.

another okie
May 15, 2008, 03:14 PM
Both cartridges have such a wide range of loadings that they can overlap, but the .454 can be loaded much hotter. It's basically a stretched or magnum .45 Colt.

I never really understood ballistics until I started reloading. (I reload .44 but don't have a .454. Yet.)

Once you are choosing bullet weight and powder it really starts to sink in what's happening when you pull the trigger.

Here's some info from the Lee loading manual:

Using a 240 grain jacketed bullet:
.44 magnum loads range from 1150 feet per second to 1500 feet per second
.454 1200 to 1700 fps

Using a 300 grain lead bullet:
.44 - 1000 to 1300 fps
.454 - 1250 to 1430 fps

TAB
May 15, 2008, 03:41 PM
companys like buffalo bore have 44 mag loadings that are very simlar to the thier 454 loadings.


example

340 gr. LBT-LFN GC . (1478 fps / M.E. 1649 ft. lbs.) is one of thier "heavy" 44 mag loadings.



325 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. (1525 fps /M.E. 1678 ft. lbs.) is a 44 mag loading.


same bullet type, 15 grain diffrence in bullet weight, but not alot of diffrence in the two other wise.

Kitchen_Duty
May 15, 2008, 04:12 PM
well other than energy and power don't forget this: 454 is more expensive, never forget money except if you reload.

aerod1
May 15, 2008, 04:59 PM
I just saw a chart from the 2004 SAAMI pressure chart.
44 mag average maximum pressure is 36,000
454 Casull average maximum pressure is 50,000 cup
Question:
Using this data , does it not make sense that the 454 Casull is a little less than 1.5 times as powerful as a 44 magnum?

dairycreek
May 15, 2008, 05:04 PM
Hard to make an accurate comparison because of bullet weights, powder loads, and stuff like that. However, given all of that the 454 would (on the average) be about 40% more powerful than a comparably loaded 44 magnum. I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot of air contained in that comparably loaded phrase but suffice it to say that the 454 is a more powerful round than a 44 magnum.

tblt
May 15, 2008, 05:06 PM
You guys left out the 41 mag great specs

Farnorthdan
May 15, 2008, 05:25 PM
I have a Ruger Alaskan in .454 casull and it really isn't that bad recoil wise as I thought it would be. This revolver has a 2" barrel and Its main purpose is for bush carry against large bears (brownies). Its not so much the recoil as it is the cost of factory loads...around $2 per round. The nice thing is I can shoot .45 colt at the range for practice and save the heavy hitters for the field.

zxcvbob
May 15, 2008, 05:40 PM
I just saw a chart from the 2004 SAAMI pressure chart.
44 mag average maximum pressure is 36,000
454 Casull average maximum pressure is 50,000 cup
Question:
Using this data , does it not make sense that the 454 Casull is a little less than 1.5 times as powerful as a 44 magnum?


It might if they were the same size. But the 454 has about 15% (IIRC) more bullet base area to push against, and more case volume.

When loaded to about 25000 CUP, a .45 Colt is about equal to a .44 Mag at 35k to 36k CUP. So I'd guess that the 454 is closer to double the power of a .44, or maybe slightly more than that because it has more case volume than the .45 Colt.

27000 CUP .45 Colt loads are as much fun as I can handle. :) I like the idea of a .454, but not sure I could take it.

aerod1
May 15, 2008, 06:37 PM
Well I would certainly like to thank everyone for the replies. We have some smart folks on this site.:cool:
I have shot a 454 several times and it isn't something I really enjoy.
Of course, more comments are welcome because I will continue to sneek a peek at this thread for a while.:D

RecoilRob
May 15, 2008, 07:01 PM
Per Alliant's website using the same weight (300grns) Hornady HP/XTP bullets and 2400 powder:

44 Mag uses 15.9 max for 1190 fps@35,000 psi

454 uses 28 max for 1700 fps@58,100 psi

Not quite double the powder charge...but close. And with the increased surface area of the greater bore diameter....the 454 wins by a pretty large margin.

pharmer
May 15, 2008, 07:53 PM
If I need something bigger than a .44 mag, I'm going to a 12 gauge or rifle. After all nothing that big is going to fit under my shirt. Joe

DoubleTapDrew
May 15, 2008, 08:00 PM
Re: Ruger Alaskan
This revolver has a 2" barrel and Its main purpose is for bush carry against large bears (brownies).
Makes me wonder in the case of a short barrel bear protection gun like those if there is a bigger gap between .44 mag and .454.power-wise.

MagnumDweeb
May 15, 2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks to S&W there is the .460 which can fire the .454 Casull and .45 Long Colt. I imagine that since the gun can fire .460 Magnum, you can load the .45 Long Colt to similar performance levels. The price differences between the .454 Casull and .44 Magnum are not that great unless you are getting a used one then the .44 Magnum tends to be cheaper. My next purchase, after I buy a reloading setup, will either be a Glock 20 or .460 Magnum in 2.75" with an eventual .460 Magnum after acquiring both in 5". Also want to fit a Glock 29 somewhere in there. It may take me a few years but that's how I see it.

.38 Special
May 15, 2008, 11:29 PM
A .44 magnum can do everything that a .454 Casull or .500 Smith And Wesson can do. And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.
Good to know. I was going to take my 5 shot Bowen Bisley .45 after cape buffalo, but now I can just bring my S&W model 19.

The things you read on the in-ter-net. ROFL.

dubious
May 15, 2008, 11:46 PM
I'm a big strong guy and I can't accurately shoot my hotter .44 mag loads in my heavy as heck 5.5" Redhawk. It makes me wonder how accurate anyone but a pro could be with hot .454 loads. .44 Mag has offers a plenty wide spectrum of power for reloaders.

zxcvbob
May 16, 2008, 12:22 AM
I'm a big strong guy and I can't accurately shoot my hotter .44 mag loads in my heavy as heck 5.5" Redhawk. It makes me wonder how accurate anyone but a pro could be with hot .454 loads. .44 Mag has offers a plenty wide spectrum of power for reloaders.

But a .454 *rifle*...

Puma makes one that I've been drooling over for about a year, but I there's several other guns higher on the list first, and not much money for gun buyin' lately.

mewachee
May 16, 2008, 01:05 AM
What is cool about a casull, is that you can load .45 colts to 44 mag levels. Then if you want more, you can go to the casulls. I have the Alaskan, so I am limited on accuracy and velocity, but for its size you can't beat it with a 44 mag.

Using Hornady's factory ammo, with 240 gn. HPs, I get 1550 fps out of a 2.5 in barrel. On The other hand, that same load screams out of my buddies 7 in at 2,000 fps.

mewachee
May 16, 2008, 01:06 AM
Bob, I want it to.

Redhawk1
May 16, 2008, 08:18 AM
A .44 magnum can do everything that a .454 Casull or .500 Smith And Wesson can do. And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.

Yea right.....
What data do you have to support you clam?
It is obvious you know nothing about ballistics.

Next you will say a 22 Mag can do anything a 357 Mag can do... :banghead:

Jst1mr
May 16, 2008, 10:57 AM
[/QUOTE]A .44 magnum can do everything that a .454 Casull or .500 Smith And Wesson can do. And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.

Glad .38 Special and Redhawk1 jumped all over that!! And lets all remember, though a S&W .460 is indeed a hand cannon, it only approaches what a .308 rifle round will do...not serious big bear medicine in my mind (but better than nothing in an emergency!)

Redhawk1
May 16, 2008, 11:02 AM
Jst1mr, I have some 575 gr. bullets for my S&W 460 Mag. I think they might foot the bill. :D

Gordon
May 16, 2008, 11:18 AM
I have a Linebaugh .454 conversion Ruger Bisley 4 5/8th that I can barely hang onto with full loads.I'll save it for Alaska bear country.I regularly carry a 4" 629 .44 mag.

Jst1mr
May 16, 2008, 11:21 AM
Just took delivery on mine...believe I'll start out somewhat short of 575 gr, though!! Is there still room for powder??

Majic
May 16, 2008, 02:18 PM
And it has been proven, from time to time, that the .357 can do everything a .44 magnum can do.
Well why did the silhoulette shooters choose to use the .44s over the .357s in their sport?

Redhawk1
May 16, 2008, 04:12 PM
Just took delivery on mine...believe I'll start out somewhat short of 575 gr, though!! Is there still room for powder??


Most people do. I use 300 gr the most in my 460 Mag. As for the 575 gr. there is plenty of room for powder. :D

stalkingbear
May 16, 2008, 04:51 PM
Rachen-I honestly don't know where you formed your OPINIONS but a .357 WON'T do the same job of a .44 and a .44 WON'T do the same thing a .454 or .500 can do!:banghead:

feets
May 16, 2008, 05:26 PM
Operating pressures are not linear. While the 454 has a substantially higher operating pressure than the 44 you can't draw a straight line.

Also, the pressure is in square inches. There's a large difference between the frontal area of .429 and .452 cases. The larger case will require a larger volume to equal the same pressure.
If you really want to get picky, you can look at the increased circumference and find out what additional force is required to overcome the additional drag.

DWFan
May 16, 2008, 06:14 PM
Uh, Majic, the revolvers of choice when silhouetting was at its peak were the Dan Wesson M40 and the Freedom Arms 353...both are .357. To give an idea of how powerful the .454 is, look at the .445 SuperMag. The SuperMag uses a 1.605" case compared to the 1.29" case of the Magnum and 1.38" case of the .454, and the .454 still outperforms it by a considerable margin.

Lazuris
May 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
Whoa Whoa Whoa. Where did you get the 575g loads for the 460. the biggest i've been pushing is the 395g GC from cast performace.

As far as .44 vs .454/460 the 454 is much more powerful in terms of ft/lbs than a .44

From Hornady's web site 1st number velocity, 2nd energy in ft/lbs

44 240g "Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
1350/971 1231/807 1134/685
"
.454 240g "Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
1900/1923 1678/1500 1478/1163
"
nuff said.

MCgunner
May 16, 2008, 06:31 PM
I don't need a .454 here. I don't NEED a .44 mag. I don't own one, but do have a .45 Colt Blackhawk that I can load pretty danged hot. It'll take anything in my neck of the woods that a .44 would take. A .454 seems like overkill, but I will have a Freedom Arms in .454 someday, it's on my list for when I have a little more income. I don't NEED it, but need is really not an issue with me. I'll hunt with it, though, when I do get it, probably with .45 colts, LOL!

sheephearder
May 16, 2008, 06:34 PM
While it should be obvious that from the ballistics that the 44 is more gun that a 357 or a 454 is more than a 44, the better question is what is the most gun that you can shoot effectively and shoot enough to become proficient with it. For some there is no limit but for others a 357 or a 44 may be the most they can handle. I have shot 4570s and 444 in TCs as well as 454 revolvers but prefer to stay with 44 or 45s. For me the hand gun is a defencive arm and I chose to hunt with a rifle or shot gun. In my neck of the woods black bear and cougar are common and a 44 or 45lc is my choice. :) Bill

Ultima-Ratio
May 16, 2008, 06:41 PM
SoCalShooter
Senior Member



Join Date: 10-03-06
Location: That's for me to know and not you!
Posts: 2,592 Well 454 is as its name implies .454 and a .44mag is a .42 and if I remember correctly a 454 casull is loaded with more powder than a 44mag and the casing is definetly larger.

Ya see SoCal, this is how rumors get started and Everyone in the thread parrots the same misinformation!

The 454 (No Decimal!) in a true .4515 and the 44 Maggie (No Decimal!) is a .43 cal

Redhawk1
May 16, 2008, 07:36 PM
Whoa Whoa Whoa. Where did you get the 575g loads for the 460. the biggest i've been pushing is the 395g GC from cast performace.

Lazuris, I reload, I get the bullets from Ranger Rick out of Homer Alaska.

Redhawk1
May 17, 2008, 12:38 PM
I made a mistake when I said 575 gr. bullets for the S&W 460 Mag, they are 535 gr. My 500 Mag uses the 575 gr. bullets. Sorry about that, but they still are big bullets. :D

fixxervi6
November 3, 2008, 04:42 PM
I have a 454 and 44, both have a wide range of loads that look to me like they overlap, they make some very very tame 454 loads and you can get +P+ loads for the 44.

I shoot full load 300 grain bullets all the time in my 454, if I wanted 44 mag ballistics I would have bought a 44 mag.

shooting various loads against watermellons and various objects I can tell you the 454 has a LOT more punch than a 44 mag.

The most accurate handgun I have is my 454, I can shoot it better than all the rest and I'm far from being a pro. I can bust pie pans at 50 yard in my sleep with it open site, if I take a rest at 15 yards I can punch the same hole over and over.

One of my worries about the gun when I got it was, am I going to be able to hit anything with this monster, about 50 rounds into the gun I was shooting full load 300 grainers, yes it kicks and kicks hard but its not going to dent forheads unless your a 90lbs woman that doesn't know how to shoot a gun or a total idiot.

If I lived in bear country I would carry a 454 snubbie, not that I hunt bear.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 3, 2008, 04:48 PM
What is the difference in power between a 44 mag and a 454?

Babbling brook vs. Niagara Falls

:D No, not that big but pretty significant. Full house .454 Casull is about all the recoil I care to handle without a serious brake, and that's with Taurus's excellent rubber backstrap.

The 454 (No Decimal!) in a true .4515

Ultima, are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure is a standard pistol bullet size - .451 -.452. You're saying that it is *neither* fish (.452 pistol bullet) *nor* fowl (.458 rifle bullet)??? :confused:

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=17804&categoryString=9315***652***19785***9015***7563***

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=8&tabId=1&categoryId=17804&categoryString=9315***652***19785***9015***7563***

Perhaps you mean .4155, not ".4515"??

Ultima-Ratio
November 4, 2008, 12:34 AM
PS-

A longtime ago three sorta famous gun culture types bumped heads and designed what they thought would be the perfect gas checked hard cast bullet for the early Freedom Arms revolver chambered in the 454 Casull. Dick Casull, Roger Barnes (different) Roger made perfect custom cast bullets and of course Veral Smith who cut perfect bullet moulds and so.....
the 305gn gc modified LFN (long flat nose) was born and was designed to be sized to .4515 to best fit FAs tight chamber throats as well as their custom special twist barrels.

A separate thread could be filled with the many sizes of the .45 Colt in the various manufactures, the Casull started life as a hot triplex load in the old Colt case.

Just being a smart aleck here PS but
No, not that big but pretty significant. Full house .454 Casull is about all the recoil I care to handle without a serious brake, and that's with Taurus's excellent rubber backstrap.

There's full house and then there's FULL HOUSE Casull ammo PS, when Taurus arrived there was still the old blue box FA ammo and SAAMI had not defined pressures on the Casull cartridge. I witnessed two fragged Raging Bull revolver cylinders here in Bo-Hunk Alaska..heard about many more.

Harley Quinn
November 4, 2008, 01:29 AM
.4510= .451, then it goes up from there to the .4515, to .4519, then it is .4520=.452:uhoh:

The midway catalog shows the .451 and .452 Bullets... It could read .45199 before it gets to .45200 ;)

44 mag are .429 and .430 I would shoot the smaller in the higher FPS in my 44 mag, if it were me. Same with the .451 or is it .454:):confused:

Hope this helps

ArchAngelCD
November 4, 2008, 02:59 AM
What is the difference in power between a 44 mag and a 454? There is a discussion among friends. One saying the 454 is around 1.5 times as powerful and the other saying the 454 is 2 times as powerful as the 44 mag.
What is the best overall measure to determine the power of a specific cartridge?
IMO the best way to measure the overall power of a cartridge is the energy the projectile delivers to the target.

This is directly from the Remington site:
.454 Casull 300gr Core-LoktŪ Hunting round
Muzzle Velocity - 1625 fps, 1335 fps @ 100 yards
Energy - 1759 ft/lbs @ the muzzle, 1187 ft/lbs @ 100 yards

.44 Magnum 275gr Core-LoktŪ Hunting round
Muzzle Velocity - 1235 fps, 1070 fps @ 100 yards
Energy - 931 ft/lbs @ the muzzle, 699 ft/lbs @ 100 yards

According to those numbers the .454 Casull is just about twice as "powerful" as the .44 Magnum. Of course you can achieve much higher numbers in both with handloads but I used factory ammo just as known constant.

Buffalo Bore lists their .44 Magnum 300gr round @ 1350/1215 and their .454 Casull 300gr round @ 1650/1840. Those numbers put the .454 Casull at only 1.5X the "power" of the .44 Magnum but that's only because BB had their .44 Magnum rounds loaded really hot.

It looks like both answers of 1.5X and 2X are correct!! LOL

saturno_v
November 4, 2008, 04:37 AM
Glad .38 Special and Redhawk1 jumped all over that!! And lets all remember, though a S&W .460 is indeed a hand cannon, it only approaches what a .308 rifle round will do...not serious big bear medicine in my mind (but better than nothing in an emergency!)

Nope

The regular commercial rounds for the .460 tops at 2300 ft/lb, a .308 is at about 2700-2800 average...not quite the same power class..

Yes there are particularly hot .460 rounds out there from small manufacturers that can go over that figure, but you can hot rod a .308 too you know....

If you add the fact that a .308 rifle bullet has much better aerodynamics, BC and sectional density, at 100 yards a.460 pistol round will lose in proportion much more energy compared to the .308

After all you do not shoot your game at the muzzle...

P.S.

You cannot extrapolate the power differences between two rounds comparing the pressure values....there is not linear relationship between them

Redhawk1
November 4, 2008, 08:06 AM
Nope

The regular commercial rounds for the .460 tops at 2300 ft/lb, a .308 is at about 2700-2800 average...not quite the same power class..

Yes there are particularly hot .460 rounds out there from small manufacturers that can go over that figure, but you can hot rod a .308 too you know....

If you add the fact that a .308 rifle bullet has much better aerodynamics, BC and sectional density, at 100 yards a.460 pistol round will lose in proportion much more energy compared to the .308

After all you do not shoot your game at the muzzle...

P.S.

You cannot extrapolate the power differences between two rounds comparing the pressure values....there is not linear relationship between them

There is more to take into consideration than just speed. Bullet weight is also a factor.
Go to a ballistic chart and plug in the numbers, you will be surprised at how close a 308 and a S&W 460 Mag are. Now use the same bullet weight.
A S&W 460 Mag with a 200 gr. bullet is go 2300 fps, and a 308 with a 200 gr. bullet may reach 2350 to 2400 fps, not much of a difference there.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
November 4, 2008, 09:23 AM
.4510= .451, then it goes up from there to the .4515, to .4519, then it is .4520=.452

Lol, Harley and Ultima Ratio, you are right and I was experiencing brain freeze there - ha. Duh, sorry. .4515 IS .451 (obviously). For some reason I was thinking that he was saying ".455x", not ".451x". One decimal place off. Ignore everything I said. What can I say - I'm an idiot. :p :)

Anyhow, Ultima, point taken about full house vs FULL HOUSE. I was talking about Hornady factory, which is probably a pipsqueak load compared to the old F.A. loads.

Interesting discussion and thanks for the good info.

Bigger is Better
November 4, 2008, 10:27 AM
When I owned the SRH, I enjoyed myself to reload hot charges. One of latest loads was a cast 345 grs fired at 1726 fps from my 7.5" SRH and at 1840 fps from my friend's 10" Freedom Arms: means more of 2250 fpe from mine and 2560 fpe from FA!!! Cost? Recoil broke our arms like a stick stroke

saturno_v
November 4, 2008, 12:21 PM
There is more to take into consideration than just speed. Bullet weight is also a factor.
Go to a ballistic chart and plug in the numbers, you will be surprised at how close a 308 and a S&W 460 Mag are. Now use the same bullet weight.
A S&W 460 Mag with a 200 gr. bullet is go 2300 fps, and a 308 with a 200 gr. bullet may reach 2350 to 2400 fps, not much of a difference there.


Of course bullet weight is a factor....however for the .308 200 gr is not the ideal weight for that caliber.

I did look at several data from the major manufacturers (Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc...) and on average, at 100 yards a 180 gr .308 retain more energy than a ~260 gr .460 at the muzzle.

And this with all the penetration advantages of the .308 bullet (better sectional density)

Between the two, with proper bullets I would take a.308 rifle over a .460 revolver against dangerous critters any time of the day...

Redhawk1
November 4, 2008, 04:19 PM
saturno_v, yes you are right to a point. The 200 gr. bullet is not the ideal weight for that caliber (308 Win). But you cannot compare apples to oranges either.

Myself, I would take a big hole over a smaller hole. But then again, I am more of a handgun hunter.

saturno_v
November 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
I'm just comparing penetration capability which is fundamental to reach vitals of large thick skinned predators...and in that regard the .308 has a significant edge...
And energy is very important too

philbo
November 4, 2008, 11:05 PM
But a .454 *rifle*...

Puma makes one that I've been drooling over for about a year, but I there's several other guns higher on the list first, and not much money for gun buyin' lately.

bob's right on this one. I have a Ruger SRH in 454 and it's almost too much of a good thing. With full power loads it's hard to control, and seems to be at it's best loaded at about 45,000 psi. But, when I picked up a Puma in 454, I discovered what a great round this can be in heavy brush. Got rid of every other lever action I had. The 454 really shines with enough gun to hang on to.

Harley Quinn
November 4, 2008, 11:31 PM
Is it as good as a 45-70 Guide:uhoh:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/026495016500.html

;)

Redhawk1
November 5, 2008, 05:40 AM
saturno_v, can you tell me where you have data to prove that. Maybe you need to go to a Linebaugh seminar. You will be surprised at the results.
http://civic.bev.net/shawnee/digress.html

saturno_v
November 5, 2008, 06:55 AM
saturno_v, can you tell me where you have data to prove that. Maybe you need to go to a Linebaugh seminar. You will be surprised at the results.
http://civic.bev.net/shawnee/digress.html

It's math

More energy and better sectional density = more penetration...you do not need a seminar ;)

Redhawk1
November 5, 2008, 08:08 AM
saturno_v, energy does not give you better penetration. It is bullet design and velocity that gives you penetration. With the proper bullet design and the right velocity (Not To Much) you will get penetration.

When you actually understand ballistics come back and talk to me. ;)
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

saturno_v
November 6, 2008, 05:04 AM
Proper bullet design is a given....I didn;t even mentioned...

You said "It is bullet design and velocity that gives you penetration"...then you got it...speed kills said Roy Weatherby long time ago...

Energy, speed, bullet design, sectional density and then mass give you penetration...

Sectional density and the total energy give you the measure ratio of energy delivered per mass

Because of my degree I know a thing or two about ballistic ;)

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

Here some math for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density

Redhawk1
November 6, 2008, 07:58 AM
saturno_v , degree or not, quoting wikipedia shows me nothing. I know all the numbers and formulas for ballistics, but doing the math is not reality. Go out and do some penetration tests for yourself. I have, and know what the reality of it is.

If you do have a degree in whatever it is, you did not mention. You would know there comes a time where velocity actually takes away from penetration. It is called resistance. There is a point of diminishing returns.

Just look at the penetration tests I posted, and you will see how most handguns will out penetrate rifles. And the rifles have some times twice the velocity.

It has nothing to do the Math.


http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

saturno_v
November 6, 2008, 12:31 PM
At some point velocity, if is too high, becomes a liability because the bullet structure, no matter how stout it is, in some cases can deform or break away....typical a case when a grizzly in Alaska was shot basically point blank with a 300 Win Mag (and premium bullet), the bullet broke away after very little penetration.

The only penetration test I performed with friends, mind you, not very scientific or accurate however you get the overall idea, was some time ago comparing a cheap Mosin Nagant 185 gr FMJ round, a premium hardcast .454 and a partition .454 (at that time my friend just got his Ruger revolver)

The rifle round went completely clean through a reasonably sized oak and a thick wood plank behind that, the two pistol rounds didn't even get through half tree (Bullet shape plays a part too of course).

If you search through the site you will find an old post where the same cheap Mosin round outpenetrated (again a unscientific test similar to mine) a .500 S&W Mag XTP.

The Wikipedia source of that article is "Modern Exterior Ballistics: The Launch and Flight Dynamics of Symmetric Projectiles" by McCoy, a university level tome for ballistics coursework.

Chuck Hawk article confirm this

Redhawk1
November 6, 2008, 03:17 PM
saturno_v , I am done with this discussion, you obviously think you know, and have all the answers. So there is no use trying to talk about it with you.
Believe what you want, I just know facts.
Have a nice day.

saturno_v
November 6, 2008, 04:15 PM
I just reported a fact that I saw with my eyes ..a.30 cal rifle bullet penetrating as much as 3 times in wood compared to a premium ultra magnum revolver bullet...fact no data on paper

Have a nice day too

Harley Quinn
November 6, 2008, 04:45 PM
Here is one for you shooting into steel 3/8 plate, my 22-250 will make holes in it, try that with a revolver:uhoh:

Redhawk1
November 6, 2008, 11:27 PM
I don't shoot animals wearing armor platting. :p

corpsmanup!
December 21, 2008, 12:26 PM
Sorry to bring up an older thread but how does 45-70 stack up against a 454 or 44 mag or 480 ruger?

anymanusa
December 21, 2008, 01:23 PM
go to the Federal website and download their 'Federal Ammunition and Ballistics Catalog'. I have the 2007 version on my computer, and it will graph numerous Federal load vs. others and give you a really good starting point for factory loads. It will give you many options and allow different inputs and use of their different loads, and then it will graph them for velocity, energy, wind drift and drop. You can compare six load simulaneously.

Thats how I know so much about ballistics.;)

Seriously, in general, for the Federal loads; 460>500>454>480>44mag.

Of course you can find powder loads and bullet weights to make the outcome different.

Redhawk1
December 21, 2008, 01:47 PM
Sorry to bring up an older thread but how does 45-70 stack up against a 454 or 44 mag or 480 ruger?

The 45-70 can out perform all you have mentioned.

My 45-70 has dropped 3 black bear, one a 15 yard recovery, one a 5 foot recovery and one dead in it's tracks. No matter what you shoot, shot placement is key.

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