[Okiecruffler]

I've down sized my Contender barrels, traded my 223 for a 218, traded my 357 mag for a 32-20. Just outright got rid of my 444, 357 herrett and 30-30AI. All this in an attempt to cut down on my reloading cost. And now I'm wondering as I need a new jug of Red Dot, should I start using the 20 more than my beloved 12? My 12 ga load is 1oz of shot and 18gr of Red Dot. My 20 ga load is 7/8oz of shot and 16gr of Unique. That means I could get 48 more loads from a pound of powder and 57 more loads from 25# of shot if I went to the 20. And the 20 does everything I need it to.

[ArmedBear]

7/8 is a great load in a 12 Gauge, too.

Note that a shotgun is best chosen because of how it handles, not the bore. For example, if you want a trap gun, it will be a 12. But you can still shoot 7/8 oz. in it and it patterns very well. Another thing to use is #8.5 shot. Keeps your pellet count high, and is perfectly effective at closer trap ranges.

[Virginian]

Nope. Just ordered $700 worth of 12 bore magnum non-tox. It hurt like hell, but not as bad as losing ducks and geese.

[TrapperReady]

I'm a big fan of the 7/8oz 12ga loads. They'll smack targets out as far as you're likely to see them.

[Dave McCracken]

Been shooting 7/8 oz loads in my 12s for a few years on clays.

They work.

Used some on preserve ringnecks and chukars, and a few on doves.

They work.

Loaded up a few hulls with 7/8 oz of hard 6 shot. Hunted squirrels with them.

They work.

Loaded some 6 pellet 00 shells as an experimental HD load.

Patterning and effect on water jugs seem to indicate these work also.

6 00 pellets= 3/4 oz.

Any questions?.....

[TrapperReady]

Earlier in the year, I was practicing for some upcoming sporting clay shoots. One of the presentations was a teal, slipping a bit right to left and about 50 yards from the shooter's box.

With permission from the club, I moved back a bit, until I was shooting it around 70 yards. The breaks with 7/8oz of #7.5 shot through an IM choke were consistent and very thorough.

Using those 7/8oz loads for much of my practice targets, I can say that I can't tell any difference in the quality of breaks between them and 1oz loads I shoot more frequently.

I haven't picked up a 3/4oz charge bar for my 9000G, but I'd like to.

[chas08]

Nope. Just ordered $700 worth of 12 bore magnum non-tox. It hurt like hell, but not as bad as losing ducks and geese.

Yep, at $4 a pop I'm shootin' smarter, not smaller. Ain't it awful that we got to choose between spending our hard earned $4 American dollars on 1 shotgun shell or 1 gallon of gas. :fire:

[Sergeant Sabre]

Not down-gauging at all. I use my 12 for everything, since I don't have anything else. I figure the primary difference between the gauges is pellet count, so with my 12 I can use a more open choke and get the same pattern density.

[sm]

Okie,
I have you beat on this "downsizing" bidness...

The last box shot in assisting a new shooter, did not use any powder, wads, or shot.

Primer only 28 ga hulls. *snicker*

Older I get , the more I understand why my Mentors grinned as they did.

[Okiecruffler]

Well, dropping to a 7/8 load in a 12 would save me shot, but not that much powder. If I were set up for it I'd seriously consider a 28ga. That new little Stevens O/U caught me eye.
It's getting so bad the other day I bought a new string and some arrows for my old bow. At least you can reuse them.

[TrapperReady]

I bought a new string and some arrows for my old bow. At least you can reuse them.


You haven't seen how I shoot a bow. :uhoh:

[ilmonster]

I've been reloading and shooting 7/8 oz. 1200 fps loads through my 12 ga. Citori for two years now for skeet and SC's. Low recoil and crushes clays when I'm doing my job. I have been toying with the idea of 3/4 oz 12 ga. loads...

[sm]

Okie,

As you know, still for the benefit of others-

I use primer only shotgun shells to assist a new shooter getting used to a shotgun going off. I also do this to someone that is recovering/recovered from surgery.

Noise adds another dimension, for a new shooter, be they a kid, teen, adult or elderly, or someone that has been through detached retina, neck, back, shoulder or some other injury or surgery.

I start a the lowest level on assisting and work up.

---

Yes prices are expensive for not only new shells, also components to reload.
.410 and 28 ga shells have always cost more.

Skeet shooters are known for downsizing in this regard.
One can shoot a smaller gauge gun for the event they are shooting.
28 gauge allows them to shoot 12,20, 28ga events and of course they have to use a.410 to shoot the .410 event.

Downsizing occurs a lot of ways.
Quite a few folks that uses to shoot skeet, now just shoot 28 ga and 12.
28 g handles upland and small game, the 12 handles home and if they were to use slugs for deer or go duck hunting.

Some do 20 and the .410, as the 20 totes nice, shells are easy to get anywhere if they choose to buy, the gun totes nice, handles what they hunt, including and still works for home.
.410 is a property gun, small game gun and they know its limits and faults - still just out near the pond fishing, or walking the property, they fell few squirrels, or a rabbit, even some doves.

Maturity - they don't have to shoot to hunt, and if they do, they do not have to limit out.

These are the perspectives I come from, when I suggest guns and gauges as I do.
There is no need for any shell longer than 2 1/2" in .410 for most applications, nor 2 3/4" for 12, 20 either.

Folks fuss about the 28 gauge, some call it "snobbish" but if a person is going to shoot to learn on/ teach with, the gun and ammo choice once figured out is less.
Many of us only brought two guns, or barrels , or tubes to shoot skeet - the 28 ga and .410.
On a fun shoot, where only 12 and 20 events were shot, we just shot the 28.
It even covered doubles events, and even pump gun only events.

Less powder, less shot, and being effective as the 28 ga is, less rounds to fell doves...

--

7/8 oz loads in a 12, some do 3/4 oz in 20, 28 ga is 3/4 and the .410 is 1/2.
12 ga ~ 18.5 gr to .410 ~ 13.8 gr.

Some of the folks have found some deals on components, during the winter, and so recipes to fit components is being done.
While many have a preference for components, or hulls, they went ahead and researched what was used , and what is use to load up.

.22 long rifle is still the best teaching caliber for same platform as a centerfire.

Dedicated .38spl guns affords one a handgun from primer fired, to Speer Plastic Training bullets, to Wax bullets, to mild wadcutter loads to on up.
We do a lot of 158 LRN, in standard pressure.
The old cattle folks - these guys and gals, have always put down cows with 158 gr LRN in a standard pressure.
These folks found some UMC(Rem) loads for a good price, and someone else found some of these LRN bullets.


Life is cyclic, and sometimes it is due to economic cycles, so once again folks are downsizing.

They just have not been using them Ultimate Extreme Shotguns with 3 1/2 oz of 00 buckshot in back yard to fell many elephants of late...*wink*

[ArmedBear]

Well, dropping to a 7/8 load in a 12 would save me shot, but not that much powder.

Use faster powder, then. Hogdon Promo is relatively cheap, and works great for 7/8 oz loads. You don't need that much.

Don't use the stuff you'd use for 1 1/8 oz. @ 1250+.

28 won't end up cheaper. You'll have to buy your own shells at inflated prices, and use the hulls. They don't last as long, either. I can pick all the once-fired reloadable 12 Gauge hulls (Remingtons all reload just like STS's do) I'll ever need, free, from range buckets.

I don't do it currently, but that's because I can buy pre-loaded shells at Wal-Mart for the same price as I can reload. I have better things to do with my time than reload standard #7.5 12 Gauge shells. If the equation changes, my reloader will come back out of the corner.

[Hawk]

28 Ga. says "cool" but in the stuff I've looked at it seems they're mostly built on 20 Ga frames. In the specific case of certain Brownings the 28 is actually a couple ounces heavier than the equivalent 20.

If the objective is weight, it seems there's a nice pick up going from 12 to 20 but nothing is gained weight-wise in going from 20 to 28. In specific, presumably rare, cases there's a teensy weight gain going from 20 to 28.

If everything was scaled to the 28, as I'd assume is the case with breathtakingly high priced doubles, I'd expect to see a real savings in weight going from 20 to 28 but I'd have to see a profound change in my income before I'd start researching that surmise.

I'm having a grand old time with my recent 20 ga purchase despite its being possessed of a couple features I would rather not have but there looks to be a point of diminishing returns that lands firmly around "20".

Not that weight is the only reason people have for looking at stuff smaller than 20 but it's the main reason I'd be doing so. The larger gauges seem to accomodate being down-loaded with greater grace than the smaller gauges can be up-loaded but that's only my impression.

The 28 has one advantage: brother Ken at Wild West in Alaska has reported in several threads on the sister forum that anyone showing up looking for 28 Ga accessories is automatically given the red carpet treatment and given the run of the shop. While some might characterize this as "snob appeal" I can't picture it being a bad thing, all in all. 28 gauge is associated with old pros, smart people and connoisseurs - no doubt explaining why one isn't in my immediate future.

[ArmedBear]

It's not uncommon for 28's to be built on 20 Gauge frames and hence gain a few ounces for the trouble. It should be rare, or confined to cheap guns, but it's not.

Among the mid-range O/Us that I saw in the range rack last night, the Brownings and SKB 28's are heavier than 20's by a bit. The Rugers and Berettas (unless combos) are lighter and scaled to the gauge. In the case of the Ruger, that's a damn good thing, since their 20 is in the weight range of most 12's.

And of course the "combo" guns are built on 20 Gauge frames, regardless of maker. For some reason that escapes me, these are popular. Maybe for skeet or something.

[RNB65]

Only if I can find a Sweet 16 in good condition.
-

[ArmedBear]

The 28 has one advantage: brother Ken at Wild West in Alaska has reported in several threads on the sister forum that anyone showing up looking for 28 Ga accessories is automatically given the red carpet treatment and given the run of the shop. While some might characterize this as "snob appeal" I can't picture it being a bad thing, all in all. 28 gauge is associated with old pros, smart people and connoisseurs - no doubt explaining why one isn't in my immediate future.

Uh, not necessarily...

I know at least one smart old-pro connoisseur who sold his 28's. He said they weren't good for anything he couldn't do as well or better with his 20's, especially with handloads.

I think that 28's are associated with buyers who don't consider cost/benefit, just what they want. They aren't heard asking, "Why is the Silver Pigeon III twice the price of the White Onyx when they're damn near exactly the same gun?" or "Why are slightly smaller shells with 1/8 oz. less shot twice as expensive as the 20 Gauge versions?" They're heard saying, "Gimme that one. Gimme those. I've got to get to the airport."

Gun shops like people who aren't concerned with cost/benefit analysis, not people like me who don't think that false sideplates are worth an extra grand.:)

Now I'm not saying that the 28 isn't neat, or has no place. The numbers just don't work out too well if you're working within a budget. So that's what a gun shop guy hears when he hears "28": "no budget."

[sm]

Re: 28 ga on 20 ga frames.

I ran a Citori 3 bbl skeet set with 20, 28 and .410., with fixed 28" bbls, and Pach Decel recoil pad.

I was not the only one with this same gun, or similar by others.

Yes, it is 20, still what came out was "We have an aging society" and this was a long time ago!
It is moreso now!

That 28 on that frame allowed folks with some problems associated with age, arthritis, aches and pains from injury, sickness and surgery to shoot, and do so with less felt recoil.

Some had been under Doctor's Orders, for NO Recoil, and when they could shoot again under orders, they were restricted to .410 only.
That gun, size and weight allowed them to shoot.

Eventually the doctors gave the approval for 28 gauge, and again the Rule of 96 applied.
Some stayed with the 28 and/or 28/410 on a 20 ga frame.

Some had 20 ga, even 12, and when tube sets became the thing, only shot 28 ga.

While many wanted a 28 ga on a 28 ga receiver, some found the Red Label did not fit them, or the expense.

Now take that SKB in 20 and tubes made, and they were set!

Okie being in the medical profession knows where I am coming from, as do others of you.


Downsizing also goes way back in another regard, and that being Slugs.
I grew up with 28 ga slugs being used.
This is similar to a .54 cal.
[.550 for 28 ga]

Now I was born in the mid 50's, so there were Veterans from previous wars, plus those afflicted with Polio.

Add, money and watching budgets, so along with folks making slugs for 12 and 20, they also did 28 and .410.

That Vet, gent or lady, could shoot a 28 ga slug, most often a round ball slug from a 20 bore sized shotgun frame and fell deer, or other critters.

Cyclic.

Why does Ken give the red carpet treatment?
Granted I have not spoken with Ken recently, still my gut says 28 ga shooters are informed, and will spend the money to get what they need to shoot.

[PJR]

The differences between a 28 on a 20 or 28 gauge frame are very small. Having owned 870s in both 28 and 20 on the same frame the 20 gauge is by virtue of the wider, heavier barrel a very different handling gun. Same with the 1100.

The difference is even less when comparing the Beretta o/u. You have to look pretty closely to determine which is on the scaled frame.

I was very skeptical about the 28 gauge claims until I owned a three barrel skeet set in 20, 28 and .410. Through shooting and patterning I concluded that the only thing I got from the 20 that I didn't get from the 28 was more recoil.

Then there is the psychological impact of the 28 gauge. At an annual fund sporting clays shoot I bested my regular nemisis who was on another squad. When we compared score cards he noted that I'd only beaten him by one target but was crestfallen when I said, "Yes but I was shooting my 28." :)

Then there are those times when shooting a tougher course that someone suggests I borrow his 12 gauge for a particularly long target and I shoot better than him with me 28. :)

The 28 has its limitations compared to the 12 but I don't believe for target shooting that it gives up much if anything compared to the 20.

[Hawk]

I think that 28's are associated with buyers who don't consider cost/benefit, just what they want. They aren't heard asking, "Why is the Silver Pigeon III twice the price of the White Onyx when they're damn near exactly the same gun?" or "Why are slightly smaller shells with 1/8 oz. less shot twice as expensive as the 20 Gauge versions?" They're heard saying, "Gimme that one. Gimme those. I've got to get to the airport."

Perhaps, but that sent me poking through the archives for a post of mine from 4 years ago:
It finally all came together at a local shop - good fit, nice trigger, not too shabby of a piece of lumber - Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon III - I was pretty surprised as I could have sworn I'd tried an Onyx and it didn't fit - the catalog shows the same dimensions for both. Oh well, just one of those mysteries of life, I guess.
Well, 4 years later and not a bit wiser, I'm wondering if I was hallucinating the difference or the memory of trying the Onyx was defective. I'll cling to the notioin that printed specs and observed specs sometimes diverge for the time being but I won't be crestfallen if proven wrong. (The SP3 looked like it had more cast but nobody put the tape to it.)

I wound up with my recent 20 due to a minor health hiccup but I'm growing to like it enough it'll likely take over as the main guy - this in spite of being possessed of a few unwanted features. My issue was weight rather than recoil - I hadn't considered that 28 would be that much milder but I suppose it would. One could likely load a 20 to match recoil-wise but that's a bigger pita than simply buying 28.

I did notice that Beretta didn't show a weight advantage for 28 vs 20 in the field model I checked but did show some difference in the sporting model. Odd. Maybe overboring the 12/20 only and omitting on the 28 or due to actually scaling the sporting and not the field?

[ArmedBear]

I compared two White Onyxes (Sporting and Field models) last night with a Silver Pigeon II, all in 12 Gauge, all next to each other. The stock dimensions were identical. Maybe the III is different, but I don't believe so.

I did notice that Beretta didn't show a weight advantage for 28 vs 20 in the field model I checked but did show some difference in the sporting model.

Their US site has a lot of incorrect weights. See the international site for the real numbers.

The White Onyx Field weighs 6.8 lb. in 12, 6.2 lb. in 20, and 5.8 lb. in 28. The 687 Silver Pigeons come in even lighter in 28, the same in others.

http://www.beretta.com/index.aspx?m=74&idc=1&ids=18

The Sporting models tend to be heavier than the Field versions, despite being identical in size and apprearance, so they might be weighted.

However, it's clear that Beretta makes a truly different 28, not just a 20 with smaller bores.

http://products.berettausa.com/images/SilverPigeon_II_12_S.jpg
http://products.berettausa.com/images/SilverPigeon_II_20_S.jpg
http://products.berettausa.com/images/SilverPigeon_II_28_S.jpg

One could likely load a 20 to match recoil-wise but that's a bigger pita than simply buying 28.


You can buy said load from Remington off-the-shelf (STS Managed Recoil). It should recoil less than a scaled 28 does, but the 20 Gauge gun will still work well with large pheasant shot.

That's what I mean by cost/benefit analysis. The 20 is good for more applications. Now if you don't have these needs, or if you have enough money to buy a shotgun for each day of the month, that doesn't matter.:)

Remington also sells a 7/8 oz. 1100 fps 12 Gauge STS load. That will likely have the least perceived recoil of all, since the gun will be heavier.

Regardless, hell, shoot what feels good. I ditched my trap single and got a field O/U to replace it, and my trap scores have been rising ever since. Some guns just work for some people, and some don't. :)

[Hawk]

I compared two White Onyxes (Sporting and Field models) last night with a Silver Pigeon II, all in 12 Gauge, all next to each other. The stock dimensions were identical. Maybe the III is different, but I don't believe so.

I'd bet the rent they don't intend for it to be different - it's just that this particular example seemed different. Who knows? Maybe it fell in the guy's pool and warped the butt stock.

You really need to make the trek to DFW. A couple of hours at the Beretta Gallery and you'll have a whole new outlook on life.

:D

Agreed on shooting what feels good - would've never guessed a year ago that would be a 20Ga with lightening holes in the barrel (can you see the rationalization starting?).