[coloradokevin]

Hey guys... Hoping for some help here.


Went out today and shot my first ever batch of handloads.

They shot fine, cycled fine, groupings were decent (beating factory ammo overall). I loaded these based on "starting" load specs, and I'm a bit worried in looking at some of the casings, as I think they may have been over pressure.

See what you think:


Three cartridges in question... worried about the brighter colored area over the case head:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/coloradocop/Copyofshooting5-16-08006.jpg


Looking at primers on three cartridges. The left one in this set is a factory loaded piece, shot through the same AR-15 (I threw it into this picture for a point of comparison):

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/coloradocop/shooting5-16-08007.jpg


Here is a closer look at two of my handloads (obviously one is fired, one isn't). Primer looks a bit flat to me:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/coloradocop/Copyofshooting5-16-08008.jpg




Here were my loads specs:

Brand new Winchester Brass
CCI Small Rifle Primer
1.751" trim length
55gr FMJ BT bullet
25 grains H4895 powder (every load was scale verified)
COAL of 2.195"
No crimp

I double checked, and everything seems in-spec based on my data. Starting loads per Lee and Hogdon both list 25gr powder, max of 26gr.


First, do I look like I am over pressure? It sounds like it based on the "signs" I've read about... but as a new handloader, it is kind of hard to have a point of comparison. Also, if I am over pressure, where might I have gone wrong?


Thanks for the help!

[dmftoy1]

There will be others who'll chime in with MUCH more experience than me . ..but I don't think you're overpressure. Did you measure the shiny part vs the "factory" load? Is it bigger? (Not the same brass so it's not a completely fair comparison but I'm just curious)

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

[dmftoy1]

Oh, and one other thing . . .did you happen to chrono any of the loads? I"d be curious what FPS you were seeing relative to what you "expected" given the load data you were using.

[dagger dog]

Kevin,

Are there any other signs, is the bolt handle hard to lift, recoil seem harder than factory? I don't remember the rifle you are shooting, but if it has a fixed blade type extractor look on the base around the head stamp and see if you can make out the extractor cut out in the bolt face imprinted on the case. These are other signs of over pressure.

Measure the case head of a factory round and your handload after being shot. Take the measurment in the area just above the extractor groove about 1/10" above the base, any expansion over 0.0001" is an overpressure sign.It would be better if the same brass is used .

I shoot a Savage .223Rem. some of my loads have flattened primer look of yours but I have had no trouble.

I would venture to say that they look OK as long as no other signs are present.

I'm sure other may have different opinions.

[ranger335v]

Those are good photos but still only photos so we can't be sure. That said, I don't think you have any high pressure problem. The primer is only slightly flattened and that amount is USUALLY due to a slight headspace problem.

If you FL sized the brass according to instructions to have the FL die touching the shell holder you may well be moving the shoulder back a little too far. If so, when you fire, the cartridge is pushed forward until the shoulder hits the chamber and the primer is blown back against the bolt's face. As pressure builds inside, the case is then stretched back over the primer in such a way as to leave a more square shoulder than it had to start with, so its not always a high pressue sign. In fact, with modern flat face primers, it is rarely a reliable pressure sign, it had much more meaning 50 years ago when many primers had a convex face.

When shooting bolt rifles it is better to adjust the die so the case just barely fits the chamber but that isn't always a good thing to do with autoloaders.

[Ol` Joe]

Without a hands-on I can`t say for sure but, things appear fine to me. The shiny area around the case head is the point where the web ends and the thinner case wall expanded to chamber diamentions when under pressure, this is normal. The primers have a touch of radius on them and are not "ironed" flat which would definately be a high pressure sign.
I agreew ith the others you are OK with these a long as other signs aren`t present, stiff bolt lift, extraction, higher vel then the book found, ect.

BTW, the "ring" that forms around the case head is normally a sign of case stretch not pressure.The brass flows forward when as another poster stated and the case thins at this point on the case. This can occure with mild pressure as well as high pressures, it takes little to move brass. The amount can be largely controled by proper resizeing. The use of a neck sizer or setting your dies to partially resize the case will greatly reduce the amount of brass flow. The 1st fireing will usually show it with new cases, that can`t be helped but, the folllowing fireings wont add to it as much if done right.

[The Bushmaster]

Look just fine to me...hard bolt lift and pull will be your first sign that you have a problem. The flat primers just indicate that the primers are not crimped into the pocket. Your FC factory sample has a crimped primer therefore won't back out a bit when ignited and then get slamed back in (reseated) when the powder ignites which is what flattens primers. Not over pressure.

[Mal H]

Like the others here, those cases and primers look perfectly fine to me.

I've got 22-250 cases with 15 firings under their belt, so to speak, that have had the same "ring" from round one.

The bad "ring" you should look for is lower down - closer to the rim and will be shinier than the brass next to it. That's when the thicker part of web itself has stretched, and that's not good.

[Ritchie]

To expand on the comments of Mal H, continued reloading may allow the brass to stretch to the point that it forms a ring where it is thinner. It this continues, the case head will seperate there. Before that happens, each case can be checked with a piece of coathanger wire that has a smooth tip bent down 30-45 degrees, and a loop handle on the other end. Use this to feel inside the case for the thinned ring, the tip off is when you pull the tip back from the case head, and it feels like it's going "downhill". Whether this happens, and how quickly, ultimately depends on how the case is resized.

[rcmodel]

Here is a sectioned .223 case:
Note where the thick case web ends and the thinner wall section begins.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/-2.jpg

The swelling in your photos is normal and is caused by the thin case wall case expanding to fill the chamber.

As already pointed out by Ol'Joe, a bright "stretch ring" about 1/2" foreword of the rim is what you need to be concerned about.

If you full-length size your cases, and push the shoulder back further then necessary, you are in effect, creating "excess headspace" in your rifle.

Then, when the rifle is fired, the firing pin pushes the round all the way into the chamber, it fires and pressure quickly expands the case to tightly grip the chamber walls.

Then, the rear of the case has to stretch enough to tightly contact the bolt-face again. Since the front of the case is stuck to the chamber by pressure, it can't move, so the case has to stretch to make up the difference.

Each time it stretches, it gets thinner right at the point where case friction in the chamber cannot hold the case in place, and a shiny ring is seen.
Eventually it will crack & fail at that point.

rcmodel

[coloradokevin]

Thanks for the reply everyone!

To address some of the questions that were asked of me:

The rifle I was using is a Bushmaster AR-15 copy, 20" HBAR, 1:9 twist.

No signs of brass flow on the extractor groove

My FL sizing die was adjusted per Lee's instructions, which involved having the die touch the shell holder. Is there a better way for me to adjust this, given an autoloading rifle?

[lgbloader]

I use Redding small Base Dies for my gas guns.

[rcmodel]

More then likely it is O.K., but if maximum brass life is the goal, you can probably fine-tune it a little to your rifle.

You can try backing off the die slightly until you notice the bolt locking harder when hand cycling empties.
When you reach that point, you went too far!

Just pull the upper off and use it as a case guage while adjusting the die.

rcmodel

[The Bushmaster]

The easiest way to set headspace for any bottle neck cased rifle...I know of no easier way then what rcmodel stated above. I moved the shoulder forward by .030" for my mod 94 by doing that. Solved the primers from backing out...

[RustyFN]

Great picture RC, thanks.
Rusty

[stubbicatt]

24.5 grains of H4895 and Hornady 55 grain Vmax bullets is my prairie dog load. Reliable and accurate and it shoots good at low pressures.

I wonder did you jam the rifling with the bullet? Those primers look a bit flat to me.

[rcmodel]

I use Redding small Base Dies for my gas guns.A small base die would make coloradokevin's problem with case expansion appear even worse then it already is.

BTW: Not to beat a dead horse, but:
There is no reason to use a Small Base die with a 5.56 NATO chambered AR-15, ever.

I have been shooting AR's and reloading for them since 1970, and I don't own a Small Base die in any caliber, let alone .223!

rcmodel

[Bullet]

Congratulations on your reloading. Looks like your on your way. I recommend you get a RCBS Precision Mic to set your sizing die. I take a fired case and measure it with the mic. Then size the case .003 or .004 smaller than the fired case measurement. -
The brighter colored area over the case head looks to me like where your sizing die stopped.This is normal.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=477756&t=11082005


.

[flynlr]

COAL of 2.195"
I am too lazy to go get my load books at the moment. But I do know I have never had a COAL less than 2.225 in my ar and usually set my 55gr loads at 2.230 and my 62gr loads at 2.250 where 2.260 is max COAL for an AR magazine. not sure if this has anything to do with your problem though.

[coloradokevin]

I am too lazy to go get my load books at the moment. But I do know I have never had a COAL less than 2.225 in my ar and usually set my 55gr loads at 2.230 and my 62gr loads at 2.250 where 2.260 is max COAL for an AR magazine. not sure if this has anything to do with your problem though.

I wondered about how short I should go too...

SAAMI specs in one of my books shows a min COAL of 2.165", and the same max you mentioned of 2.26".

For my first loads, I tried to replicate (as closely as possible) one of the Federal XM193 loaded cartridges I had laying around.

I trimmed to the recommended 1.75" (actually, I ended up at 1.751", but still within spec). I then tried to seat the bullet so that the caneuler (sp?) was placed just at the point where it met the case neck.

This yielded a round that was fairly close to my factory load, and measured out to 2.195".


I am learning that I need to do some more learning :)

Some of this talk about "measuring headspace" and "measuring off of the bullet's ogive" has left me with more questions than I can answer... In some ways I get the idea, in other ways I'm still learning.

It's a process, I suppose.

Thanks for keeping my going guys!

[flynlr]

^^^
Just an FYI this morning I went and measured some of my factory ammo.
I used 10 rounds of each of the following to get an average. usually within .002 of each other.
FED XM193 LC-05 Lot121 2.245 COAL
FED AE223 LC-05 2.205 COAL
REM UMC 2.225 COAL
above all 55GR LOADS
so its all over the map.

[rodregier]

Cart OAL 2.260 max is AR15 pattern box magazine limit (or a bit less). Projectiles with a cannelure for .223 Rem should be seated with the midline of the cannelure at or close to the case mouth. That normally results in a cart. overall length below 2.260.

The SAAMI spec drawings for the cartridge will typically show max and min lengths. Seating too deep can create pressure and/or feeding problems.

[Bullet]

SAAMI’s cartridge drawing for .223 Remington lists the minimum OAL at 2.165 and the Max OAL at 2.260.

[lgbloader]

Quote: rcmodel says:

A small base die would make coloradokevin's problem with case expansion appear even worse then it already is.

BTW: Not to beat a dead horse, but:
There is no reason to use a Small Base die with a 5.56 NATO chambered AR-15, ever.

I have been shooting AR's and reloading for them since 1970, and I don't own a Small Base die in any caliber, let alone .223!


Good for you, Mate. But if you never owned one, how do you know all about them? By what you have read? or heard? or think?

Listen, you sound like you know quite a bit. So you obviously know enough to know that you don't know everything, right?

Here is one thing you should know: You have your opinion and I have mine. I do things my way just like you do things yours. I am cool with that. Maybe you should be, too.

Here is another thing you should know: This forum is public so maybe you should learn a bit more people skills and be more respectful on how you make your replys to other MEMBERS.
We appreciate your knowledge and pretty pictures so, Please, don't ruin it. End of discussion.


* * My appologies to the OP and to all fellow HR members.

Peace...

[Bullet]

lgbloader

Since you use a Small Base die could you explain the difference between it and a regular sizing die?

[strat81]

lgbloader, rcmodel's post didn't seem disrespectful at all. Relax.

To the OP: your pics and load data look fine. Beware of the FC .223 brass. It's junk and has lousy primer pockets. Recycle it.

[lgbloader]

Bullet,

This is not the thread, my friend but if you really want to know, Look it up on the Redding site or RCBS. I didn't tell the OP (or anyone for that matter) to use them, I was only stating what I use.


Strat81,

Maybe I did over emphasize and again, I appologize but when I start seeing !'s behind what people are saying on posts directed my way, it pisses me off. Next time, I will post that I am offended, short and sweet.

rcmodel,

You offended me.

I admit, not everyone uses small base dies but, then again, not everyone uses a RCBS Chargemaster combo and I am sure that people have been fine without them since 1970 too. Am I out of line for using and owning this too???

I use small base dies and if someone else doesn't, different strokes, Mate.

No more hijacking, lets get back to the original posted thread, This is a waste of time for all involved.

Peace and cheers...