[eap]

i'm looking at the kel tec p11 and the kahr pm9 for front pocket carry. i suspect the kel tec is cheaper but i haven't looked. which has a better track record for reliability since i'll carry it everyday?
i must admit the stainless slide of the kahr is nice, but the od green frame of the kel tec tempting too.:D


comments/suggestions welcome.

[DeltaElite]

Kahr, definitely the Kahr.
My Kahr has been perfect and is a fine weapon.

I am a Kel-tec fan, but I have had too many reliability problems with the 9mm versions.
My 32acp Kel-tec has been perfect in function.

YMMV

[Pico]

This one was beaten to death and is still going on at KTOG :

http://www.ktog.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2064

My opinion is the Kahr is an excellent pistol but at twice the cost it is not that excellent a deal. I bought a P-11 and really like it and have had no trouble at all. I really like having $250 or so in my pocket also while owning the same size pistol which holds more rounds. Knowing any issues which arise from the Kel Tec are fixable if needed by the factory with outstanding service forever is a strong incentive to buy one.

If KT's service rep isn't enough to get you to put out $220 - 230, I would try to buy a Kel-Tec from a dealer who will take it back if it's not acceptable. Other than that, I can only suggest you pay hundreds more and buy a Kahr or Glock 26.

Pico

[denfoote]

I would go with the Kahr. My MK9 is a gem!!!

[Rebeldon]

That's not even hard. Kahr!

[Blackhawk]

Neither.

As subcompacts, they're both too big for front pocket guns.

The Kahr is a tad smaller at the expense of 4 rounds capacity.

If the price difference between the Kahr and the Kel-Tec isn't off-putting and you want a 9mm pocket gun, wait until after the SHOT Show in Orlando a month from now. Rohrbaugh's debuting its R-9, a 9mm pocket pistol the size of a Kel-Tec P-32. It will cost about as much more than a Kahr as a Kahr does than a P-11. R-9s are stainless and aluminum weighing less than either the Kahr or P-11.

At the same time, Kel-Tec's debuting its P-3AT, a P-32 size, price, AND WEIGHT .380 ACP.

The two most powerful locked breech pocket pistols will then be the 9mm Rohrbaugh, and the .380 Kel-Tec.

IMO, a front pocket pistol is something that should be able to be drawn in complete stealth mode, i.e., without telegraphing you're producing a pistol by any hand, arm, body, or clothing movements. A bunch of different compact and sub compact pistols can go into pockets, but very few of them can happily stay there all day and be drawn in a flash. The only guns I'm able to make appear as if by magic are mouse guns the size of P-32s or less.

[Zundfolge]

Neither.

As subcompacts, they're both too big for front pocket guns.

Maybe if you wear spandex pants or skin tight jeans.

With slacks or Dockers I can drop my MK40 in the pocket and it dissapears (I imagine it would be even better with a good pocket holster).

[Blackhawk]

Slacks, loose jeans or Dockers here too, but there's no way I'd carry a gun in a pocket that's not in a pocket holster. I don't want it's orientation to change.... :what:

[gwalchmai]

BH - you mean you don't want your orientation to change. :evil:

Resp.
g ;)

[PCRCCW]

Te he he....:D A pocket holster is a MUST for carrying either one...a DAO 9mm with no holster ....a fast reach in to get your gun....your voice could change along with your orientation...:eek:

ALWAYS carry with a good pocket rig......They:

Keep your gun straignt and secure..plus you know where it is for a faster draw if you need it. A gun on the floor (its happened) is not really considered concealed...but it really isnt brandishing.."Is it officer?"

Keep your gun cleaner...s/autos need that to WORK!

Keep your guns weight spread out for better carry.

Keeps your gun from printing and saying "Hey, Im a Kahr"


This is the equivalent to "mexican" style IWB carry....just smaller.

Get the Kahr....Keltec are great guns...but I love Kahrs.

Shoot well

[modifiedbrowning]

Anyone have a picture of the grey frame for the P11? The color is listed as an option on the Kel-Tec website.

[Onslaught]

I really like having $250 or so in my pocket also while owning the same size pistol which holds more rounds.
:confused: The Kahr P9 and the Kel-Tec P11 are ROUGHLY the same size (Kahr is thinner), but the PM9 and the P11 are NOT the same size. They are the same weight though (unloaded).

FWIW, The Kahr MK9 wasn't too big to carry in my front pocket, but it was too heavy. I was going to get a PM9, but I went another route (S&W 642). I tried a P11 for the pocket, and it was too thick and too tall (for me). I was standing in line at the grocery store, and the woman next to me noticed the butt of the gun right at the top of the pocket opening... she went to another line. :uhoh:

If it's pocket carry, I vote Kahr PM9. Unless, like Blackhawk said, you wanna wait a few more months until you can get your hands on a Kel-Tec P32 sized 9mm Rohrbaugh, but at a cost of another $200 over the Kahr.

[Johnny Guest]

I love the trigger pull on the Kahr but it is just a touch too long in the sllide and handle for comfortable pocket carry in most of my pants. Works fine in an IWB holster, but if I go that way, I carry a Commander. The KT is a specialty item for me. I really like the belt clip for shirt tail out carry, and under a light vest.

I will withhold comment on the Rohrbaugh until I actually have a chance to at least handle one. I see no point in waxing enthusiastic over an item I've only read about. It looks promising, IF we can trust the published specs, as does the Kel Tec P3AT. I've carried a P32 quite a bit, and it is small and light enough that even a small increase would be acceptable. As with the .32, though, the .380 is definitely a mousegun, merely the next better thing to being without a firearm.

Best,
Johnny

[TarpleyG]

Well, I bought a P-11 for the cost and warranty. I followed the recommendation from KTOG.COM about performing the fluff & buff before shooting it. I spent about 30 minutes sanding and polishing according to the instructions and haven't had a failure of any sort with CCI ball or Federal Hydra-shok. I paid $214 for it and, at that price, if I lose it or it gets stolen I won't feel too bad. I also bought a Don Hume pocket holster and it sits comfortably in my front pocket. I tried the belt clip for a while and like it if I am wearing shorts without a belt but it doesn't allow for use with the pocket holster. Can't have my cake and eat it too, I guess.

GT

[yzguy]

I have the P-11 and for me it is too big for pocket carry. Yes it will fit in the pocket, but I can not draw it very quickly or discretely, but love it IWB or in a belt holster.

[NJ3]

I have to agree that neither is a true pocket pistol.

The problem with the PM9 is not the size or weight but the rear sight.

I do carry my PM9 in my pocket, but when I do I have to pay extra attention to drawing it. I have to draw with my thumb over the rear sight. That way the sight won't snag during the draw. The downside is I have to adjust my grip afterwards. It's not as smooth as my S&W j-frame.

The Rohrbaugh R-9 appears to be more of a pocket pistol from what I've seen. The R-9 seems to have a better sight set-up and no sharp corners. The price will be higher than a PM-9 though.

[eap]

thanks for all the info.:) i might just stick with the smith 642. after proper fondling at the gun show ofcourse.:D

[Blackhawk]

BH - you mean you don't want your orientation to change. Exactly! :D

I've been quite happy with my orientation since I discovered I had one....

[Kahr carrier]

Kahr:D

[New_comer]

I prefer Kahr...

But would not hesitate to carry a Kel-tec should it be the only one available. ;)

[Oleg Volk]

Has a P9 and a P11. Kept the Kahr. See old TFL threads comparing the two.

[sm]

I use a holster with the P-11 99.9% of the time.

My experience comparing the two. Mine, my gunsmiths's and another instructor has never had a glitch. Students with Kahrs have had some problems and those requiring service from Kahr-more dissapointed than happy, especially for the money spent.

Its a matter of personal preference, after all its your bacon when choosing platform and caliber. I prefer a 5" 1911 -however- my P-11 fills a niche, has been totally reliable, and I'm responsible for my bacon. Spending more $ than a Keltec I'd prefer a 1911 or a mod 19...but we are trying to fill a niche...back to smaller platform.
I use 9mm as MY smallest caliber.

[killjoy]

I'd buy the Kel Tec P11. Mine works flawlessly and for the price you can get TWO. If your Kahr breaks I'd be willing to bet that by the time their service dept. has even looked at your pistol Kel Tec would have repaired or replaced it and you'd be at the range checking with a big smile on your face. IMHO:D

[JMax]

Kel-Tec P11. Love it.

[Onslaught]

thanks for all the info. i might just stick with the smith 642.
Funny... after trying the MK9 and the P11, I ended up with a 642 in my pocket as well.

Even though it's wider than the semi's, the unusual lines look more like a wad than a block in your pocket, and to me, that doesn't say "GUN" nearly as bad. Mine looks more like a lump of keys or something.
If your Kahr breaks I'd be willing to bet that by the time their service dept. has even looked at your pistol Kel Tec would have repaired or replaced it and you'd be at the range checking with a big smile on your face.
It has been my EXPERIENCE that, if you do have a problem with your Kahr (never happen with a K or MK) Kahr picks up the shipping... Kel-Tec won't. So by the time you've sent your KT back to the shop a few times, you've really whittled down the difference in price.

If I could afford either, I'd buy Kahr (no P's though, haven't heard any bad things about the PM yet). If I couldn't afford the Kahr, I'd be quite happy with the Kel-tec, but I still couldn't get it in my pocket :D

But that's just me.

[yzguy]

actually KT will reimburse you for up to $20 in shipping with a receipt. they don't automatically, but have been known to if asked. I don't really knock them for not offering to after having so many shipped to them with nothing wrong with them (P-40's).

[Blackhawk]

That's interesting, yzguy!

I'll have to remember that if anything ever goes wrong with any of my Kel Tecs that requires sending the gun back to KT.

[Onslaught]

I stand corrected... Thanks YZGuy!

Of course, Kahr doesn't always offer right away either. They will reimburse, but most of the time, they've just sent out a "call tag" and had fed-ex pick it up at my house. ( :cuss: P9... :cuss: P40...)

[eap]

after a lengthy discussion with my gunsmith, the posts here and over at KTOG, i'm going to stick with the smith 642. lightweight, sleek and stone cold reliable.

the problems both guns experienced, sending it back to respective factories and size contributed to my decision.

the kahr's price put it off for me. the kel tec seems like a good design but a "cheap" gun. i would prefer KT to put another $100-150 in their pistols to bring up quality/reliability or maybe a "premium" line.

thanks to all those that replied.