[Kino74]

With my AK and AR15 collection coming along nicely, I'm looking to add two more rifles to the collection. Rifles such as the Bushmaster ACR, FN SCAR, XCR, Microtech AUG and 556 are all being considered at this time.

Although just from reading the specs, I favor the ACR and most certainly will get one barring another ban. Money available would be enough to get another rifle so that leaves the AUG, SCAR , XCR and 556.

I have handled the AUG but that is all the experience I have with that rifle.
I have no experience with of the above rifles whatsoever other than internet lore.

What do you recommend?

[retgarr]

all of 'em. No, for me if I already had AR15's an ACR, I'd want to go for something a little less conventional. SO I'd get the AUG, just because it's different. Diversity is good.

[Kino74]

The AUG is definitely unique. The rifle I handled felt very easy to manuever although I was not the biggest fan of the optic it had on it. I wish I could have shot it though.

[spaceCADETzoom]

In your situation, I'd say AUG. If for nothing else, it's a novelty. That's how I feel ab out my FS2000. I'm not that big a fan of the gun. Terrible trigger, crumy ergonomics, shots louder and inexplicably harder than .223 should. But it is unique...has its own place in my collection.

I have the 556. I really like it...handles great, shoots in a fun enough manner. Confident in its reliability. I initially thought it was a bargain in comparison to all of the other semi auto .223 rifles coming out. But that's all relative....$1300 is still steep! I'm okay with it because it's already been paid for (i never regret purchases after the cash is already gone).

You also can't go wrong by stockpiling AR15 lowers :)

I agree on ACR being a first buy though.

[Kino74]

I c, how is your Sigg556? Can another buttstock be put on their like a PRS? I owned SIG pistols and was impressed by the craftsmanship on on them, hows the SIG 556 in that regard?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've shot the Steyr AUG (full-auto even) but not the Microtech version. The AUG is a remarkably handy little weapon; but a little hard to get accustomed to ergonomically if you have built up a lot of familiarity with ARs.

One plus about the XCR, ACR, and SCAR is that they essentially use the same control layout as the AR with minor variations (and most of those minor variations are an improvement - like the charging handle).

[El Tejon]

What do you intend to do with the weapon?

If you want to collect and hold it for "investment", get the AUG clone. It will be on Obama's list in '09 and not many will be made.

If you want to shoot it and use it, it is my opinion that Magpul has reinvented the wheel and the Masada is an actual step forward. I got to handle the Masada at the NRA Meeting in Louisville and believe that you can believe the hype (if the gun runs).

The 556 is a solid weapon but I do not believe it was designed by shooters. The weapon is front heavy (even without all the Tommy Tactical crap people stack on them) affecting the flow of the weapon and hurts to shoot (especially that awful grip, it pinches worse than an AR and would be the first thing on the weapon I would trash can).

The Title I .223 SCAR that is coming is goofy. The 20" barrel throws off the balance and makes it a little less "utile" than a 16". The lack of AR compatibility would concern me as we do not know if FN will leave us high and dry.

I like the .308 SCAR but FN at Louisville said that a Title I .308 is "down the road" and Obama will surely close the door by then.

The Magpul rep at Bushmaster's display said 4th quarter of '08. Wait and see.

*The above reflects the opinions of El Tejon and ET alone. As always, the subjective is objective.

[Coronach]

So now it's 4th quarter, not second? Dammit. Nothing going down to the wire.

Mike

[El Tejon]

4th quarter 2008. This is what I was told by the Magpul rep at the Bushmaster display on May 17, 2008 Saturday afternoon when Fritz and I were walking the Expo Hall.

If they are smart they will release it earlier and amaze the gun culture.:D

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually, someone else from the NRA show just commented in another thread (El T's NRA Thread) that they were told January 2009 and $1800-2000 by the Bushmaster rep.

I sure hope that isn't the case; though if Obama is waiting in the wings then with a Democratic majority they will probably be able to sell all they can make at $2k.

[Darthbauer]

I c, how is your Sigg556? Can another buttstock be put on their like a PRS? I owned SIG pistols and was impressed by the craftsmanship on on them, hows the SIG 556 in that regard?



Yes you can put the PRS and other AR stocks on it. It shoots great and has a very smooth trigger. There is alot of slop between the upper and the lower but it doesnt effect the way it shoots. Most think its alittle heavy up front but most of that weight is in the bolt so its pretty balanced when the bolt is back unless you have a heavy stock on it like the PRS. The stock hand guards are alittle weird but easily replaced with a Surefire dedicated weapon light forend. Oh yeah and the stock iron sights are crap.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

My opinions:

1. XCR => HIGHLY favorable!

2. ACR/Masada => Unknown

3. Microtech AUG => Unknown

4. SCAR => Unknown

5. 556 => Slightly unfavorable (not good ergos for *me* and overpriced for what you get).

I'll throw in a couple more:

6. FS2000 => Marginally favorable

7. Standard AR => Generally favorable with research into choice

8. Gas piston AR => Generally favorable with research into choice

I'm getting an XCR within 6 months of the inevitable new D party administration in Nov.

[GRIZ22]

I used an AUG for 6-7 years in the late 80s and early 90s. Initially I thought it was a great rifle but over time I found several problems with it.

1. Tendency to slam fire with non mil spec primers. I'm not talking reloads but commercial factory ammo.

2. Insert magazine in well and tap the bottom with your palm as you do with everything else to ensure it's seated and the 2-3 rounds pop out of the magazine requiring you to clear the weapon and start all over again.

3. The augs we originally got had the trigger where you squeeze for semi and kind of jerk the trigger for auto. Problem is if you happen on a target at close range and jerk that trigger...you get auto.

4. The soulution to #3 was fitting a safety that would had three positions. Push to the first click and it's semi, push to the second for auto. If you're on safe and acquire a target at close range you'll push that safety all the way to auto position.

5. The AUG never worked well after a few hundred rounds (can't always clean a weapon duting a firefight). The AR is light years ahead of the AUG in this respect.


Never handled the others you ask about. Still happy with the AR.

[tacweapon]

I have the XCR and love it. I have only had a few minor issues with it and they have been quickly resolved by RA there customer service is great and the weapon is just as good.

I think the only thing that the ACR has over the XCR is that is supposdly can use the AK mags.

If you want some more info on the XCR go to the XCR Forum

Here is a pic of me and my XCR

[Eightball]

At the NRA convention, I was told Q1 09 for the ACR by a bushmaster rep, so i'd take it out of the running. The AUG is the most "different" from your AR collection, and would be worth looking into, IMO--nice weapon that will be limited availability before swearing in of the POTUS....and look at the prices of the old ones at this point, they're $$$.

[ny32182]

The original release date on the ACR was Q2 '08, right? So it is getting delayed. No telling at this point how long that will be.

The 556, eh, I don't know. I shot one... its reliable, has a nice trigger, but that weight is something else, and it is, after all, a Sig 55X series, which has been on the market for decades. Nothing new, technology-wise. When I look for a next generation rifle that does things that ARs and AKs can't do, The 556 doesn't really qualify for that. It may be a fine investment at this point, but if you are looking for a SCAR-spec rifle, you are looking for something else. There is one SCAR spec rifle on the market today, and that is the XCR. Given the way in which production delays go, combined with the changing political climate, the XCR might be the only true SCAR spec rifle you *ever* have the chance to own. Buy one now. Just do it. If the FN SCAR and/or ACR ever make it to market, it will be months down the line, and you can buy one of those too if/when it happens.

[LaEscopeta]

Not to hijack the thread, but since a few people with AUG experience posted…
What is proper trigger discipline with the unconventional trigger guard on the AUG? Index finger on the side of the receiver like a conventional firearm, or do you have to do something different to keep your middle finger off the trigger?

[GRIZ22]

What is proper trigger discipline with the unconventional trigger guard on the AUG? Index finger on the side of the receiver like a conventional firearm, or do you have to do something different to keep your middle finger off the trigger?

Alongside the frame, your middle finger sits below the trigger without any problem.

[sinistr]

never handled the aug clone,but a steyr aug does not stack up to an fs2k.the fn's trigger also gets considerably better with more rounds through it(at least mine did)

[Kino74]

I hope for a McCain presidency and pray that if even the dems get into office with a filibuster proof Senate that hopefully those dems are at least pro second amendment.

I hope to get a ACR as it is my number one choice but we'll see come next year. I hated living through the first AWB and I feel the next one if there is a next one will not just hurt the assault weapons owners but cause a further rift amongst gun owners reminiscent of the 1986 ban but on a much larger scale.

Looks like I can't go wrong or too badly at least with the current choices so this will be a tough decision that would not surprise me that the first one I get is the one available. Course having all of them sure would be nice :)

[LoadedDrum]

I am a big fan of the XCR but since you are set on the ACR I would say the AUG to have something different or a 556 since a US company is going to be making conversion parts to make it more like a 551.

[George Hill]

I am full on digging my SIG 556. I love it. The other options? All good... there is no bad choice between these.
1. XCR => My personal least favorite.
2. ACR/Masada => When it comes out, will it offer anything better than the others to warrent the hype? I doubt it.
3. Microtech AUG => An improved AUG, if you like the AUG platform... this is the way to go.
4. SCAR => Fantastic rifle, this is why the SOCOM adopted it... but when it actually comes out, how much it is going to actually cost, and if demand doesn't outstrip availability... should be a winner.
5. 556 => Fantastic weapon, does everything right. Bad ergos? The mag ejection button is a bit further away, but I can hit it with my middle finger instead of my trigger finger. Is this a problem? No, it's a SIG. SIG moves things around, like the slide release and decocker on their pistols. You have to get used to the difference.
6. FS2000 => Too funky, I question reliability with that forward ejection and weird dust cover over the ejection port. I don't like the mag well's rubber things inside to hold the mag. I don't like the ergos... I'm not an Anime Tentical Monster, so it doesn't really fit me. Cool, yeah, but too alien for me.
7. Standard AR => Crap. Fits well, lots of after market, familiar, but crap.
8. Gas piston AR => Still has the AR's star shaped chamber which I hate, but fixes almost everything else wrong with the AR. This is a step in the right direction, but if you want a gun like this... why not get something different that fixes all the AR's issues?
9. HK SL8-6. Great rifle... G-36 genetics. Retarded Unich Mags, no options for a hi-cap unless you modify your expensive rifle with an expensive kit so you can use cheap AR mags. This is like modding your Mercedes to fit a Ford engine under the hood. HK needs to pull their heads out, mag the SL8s use G-36 mags, and import a ton of those mags. Free retrofit to G36 style.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

How come you don't like the XCR?

[lvcat2004]

I had a chance to handle the LEO/military SCAR at 2008 SHOT show and it was amazing. I would say that was my favorite rifle at the SHOW. They told me 2009 1st Qtr., about $1400 ish, according to FN reps there.

[Quiet]

If you want to get one before the next president goes into office, get the Robinson Arms XCR.

If you can wait, get the FN SCAR.

[Coronach]

Actually, someone else from the NRA show just commented in another thread (El T's NRA Thread) that they were told January 2009 and $1800-2000 by the Bushmaster rep.

I sure hope that isn't the case; though if Obama is waiting in the wings then with a Democratic majority they will probably be able to sell all they can make at $2k.Yep. Concur.

That just sucks. Bushmaster has never really amazed me with their customer service or responsiveness, but I was willing to waitandsee if they would meet the 2Q08 date they set for themselves. Looks like they're not going to make it. :( ...which begs the question: what dumbarse says you're going to field something in 2Q08 and then quickly lets it slip to 1Q09? I mean, you have some troubles and it slides to 3Q08...hey, I'm cool. Feces Occurs. But...9 months? C'mon. The economy is slowing down and you have a cash cow sitting in front of you that will friggen sell it's own darned self. Other industries would kill for this opportunity in our current situation. Get off of your collective butt and get it to market. If you invest a bajillion bucks setting up your assembly line and marketing crapola and you get 2 months of sales before they slam the door in your face, you have NO ONE to blame but yourselves.

The XCR is looking better and better.

Mike

[def4pos8]

I'll limit my response to the 556 as I've not fired the others.

Prior experience with .223 combat rifles is limited to the M-16, AR-15 and Mini-14. I have fondled the AUG, FN2000 and others but not fired them.

My SIG 556 is the best .223 I've fired to date. I purchased the folding stock/16-inch barrel version. Out of the box, it fired a roughly 1.5-inch group at 100 meters off of a crude, sandbag rest using Hornady 55-grain hardball. Using a pet load worked up in another rifle the groups were just less than one inch.

My optic is Trijicon's ACOG 4x32.

I like the 556's trigger. The adjustable/folding stock is wonderful! I like a bit of forward weight bias. Felt recoil just isn't there. This is my first "Kalashnikov". I like the ease of cleaning versus that wonderful AR-15 bolt carrier assembly.

I think that the overall quality of the 556 is outstanding! It isn't the least expensive rifle out there but I believe I received good value for my dollars.

[variablebinary]

In order of preference

1: XCR -Amazing carbine. Spot on ergos, handling, features. Very innovative. American made. I like the AK47 action as well. The bolt is far beefier than the 8 lug AR15 bolt. The long stroke piston is very reliable as well

2: 556 - Needs work. Getting better. However what you buy out the box is as good as it gets. Because the upper is the gun you cant SBR, or swap out uppers or do caliber conversions. Ergos are rough as well, and forget getting spare parts from SIG. If you want a new barrel, expect your carbine to take a trip back to the factory... What it has going for it is a rock solid action that is 30 years old.

3: AUG - Shot it, took it down and played with it. No real interest. I'm not a bullpup kinda guy so I have a bias. If I was I would get an FS2000

[blitzen]

George Hill,

why the bad rap on the XCR? It is everything that's good about the AR and everything that's good about the AK. Just asking.

[Mp7]

a SCAR in 7.62 x 39 ?

This way you should acquire a high precision
waepon that fires your ak ammo piles.

(...of course 7.62 Nato would pack more punch!)

envious :)

[Tyris]

STG-556 with 16" barrel.

This is why...

One of these is an SBR with a $200 tax, the other is NOT.

http://image.bayimg.com/bajcaaabn.jpg


Trigger problems with the original Steyr AUG are all resolved here. My microtech stg556 has a 1 stage trigger with what feels like a 6-pound clean break. I run mine with commercial 223 ammo, and it has been very happy clean or dirty.

-T

[tacweapon]

The 7.62 x 39 XCR rifles and conversion kits are shipping June 15. So now the option for 5.56, 6.8, and 7.62 is available for the XCR and 6.5 is on the way. I do not think that any of the other Weapons Systems can offer that.

[C-D-P]

Anything so long as it is not the SCAR.

[buck00]

Enough said! :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=74295&stc=1&d=1204907232

[HorseSoldier]

a SCAR in 7.62 x 39 ?

This way you should acquire a high precision
waepon that fires your ak ammo piles.

A big part of the accuracy issues with 7.62x39 AKs is the crap ammo people run through them. I doubt SCAR would do much better than an AK with decent sights on it when it's firing ammunition that has a 2-300 fps velocity spread within the same batch and all the other QC issues with stuff like Wolf.

[C-D-P]

There is no SCAR in 7.62x39. Right now you have the MK16 (5.56x45) and the MK17 (7.62x51). There was at one point a requirement that said the MK17 was supposed to be able to also fire 7.62x39 as well as x51, but when problems arose they dumped that idea.

[Joseph85]

Granted I own an AR, it's nice to see all these new platforms that are not just yet another AR. Sharing AR magazines is a very well appreciated bonus.

Masada/ACR, Massoud, XCR, and SCAR just to name a few :D

Everyone seems so sure that another assault weapons ban is going to become law and Obama is going to ruin the country in a few months after winning the election in 2008. While I don't doubt he is bad for the country, I would bet it's going to be 2010 before any of the Democrat pet projects become law.

2009 is looking to be a very, very interesting year!

A new president along with a lot of very interesting new firearms.

[variablebinary]

There is no SCAR in 7.62x39. Right now you have the MK16 (5.56x45) and the MK17 (7.62x51). There was at one point a requirement that said the MK17 was supposed to be able to also fire 7.62x39 as well as x51, but when problems arose they dumped that idea.

Once FN started saying there is no 7.62x39 conversion planned, I started to lose interest a bit. Without that...the FNSCAR is just another 5.56 spitter, of which there are many, which makes it a little less interesting for me.

Robarm and the XCR are proving to be more agile when it comes to taking advantage of the SCAR spec features...

Though, wasnt there only a parts commanality requirement for x51 NATO?

[C-D-P]

Once FN started saying there is no 7.62x39 conversion planned, I started to lose interest a bit. Without that...the FNSCAR is just another 5.56 spitter, of which there are many, which makes it a little less interesting for me.

Robarm and the XCR are proving to be more agile when it comes to taking advantage of the SCAR spec features...

The first version that was planned (never implemented) said that there was to be one SCAR variant. It was supposed to be able to fire 5.56 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. This was all going to be done by simply changing the bolt and barrel. The individual operator was supposed to be able to do this himself without an armorer.

They realized that would not be feasible so they came out with the SCAR L (MK16) and the SCAR H (MK17) at that time the MK 17 was supposed to be able to fire both 39 and 51 with nothing but a change to the bolt and chamber. Then they dumped that. Now it is just two different weapons each firing only NATO.

Each variant had three barrels. A CQB barrel, a full length barrel (for DM applications) and a heavy barrel (to turn her into a LMG). These changes can not be done without an armorer.

It has been a while since I have had hands on either variant (almost a year now), but I have heard that they dumped the heavy barrel for the MK16.

The whole program was junk last time we tested them.

Though, wasnt there only a parts commanality requirement for x51 NATO?

Last I heard, yeah kind of sort of. IIRC simple parts like buttstock, and accessories.

[HorseSoldier]

The whole program was junk last time we tested them.

Rumors I hear is that SCAR has gone from a done deal to a maybe in the last 12 months or so, anyway. SOCOM's supposed to be watching to see which way Big Army jumps on the future of the M4/M16 first.

[C-D-P]

Part of that I think is because of us. Like I said in another thread, USASOC and AFSOC tested em and loved em (they were testing in nice weather). A few months later, we tested the same exact rifles (in piss poor weather) and hated em. NAVSPECWAR tested em a few months later and also hated em.

There are better platforms out there right now, but they are more expensive, and were developed by independent companies with no bid from SOCOM. We will see what happens.

All this being said, I have heard rumor that DEVGRU has some guys down range with them, and love em. So we will see.

[Tarvis]

Thought on the ACR: I wouldn't be suprised if they pushed the ACR back due to the election. They may be waiting to see if a Dem gets elected, at which point they could likely put the line on hold until a ban comes through, which wouldn't specifically name the ACR as it isn't being produced yet. They could also put the product on hold indefinitely so they don't waste capital setting up the production line, only to have the rifle banned. Thoughts?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They may be waiting to see if a Dem gets elected, at which point they could likely put the line on hold until a ban comes through, which wouldn't specifically name the ACR as it isn't being produced yet.

Doesn't seem like a very effective strategy since past AWBs at the state and federal have included a feature ban and this has been much more effective than banning products by name.

I think the problem is that Magpul suggested last minute changes to the ACR and Bushmaster is reluctant to slow AR production to spin up the ACR when it can already sell every AR it makes and has a backlog.

[aubie515]

Don't forget about this AUG clone http://www.tpdusa.com/ Best part is this bullpup uses AR15 mags.

I also hear that Steyr will be releasing the AUG A3 version sometime in October of this year.

I have been wanting the ACR since it was announced by Magpul, but I'm not too impressed that they teamed up with BM. Although I like my BM AR15, I just don't feel that the company is what it used to be.

[Kino74]

I was looking at the TPDUSA AUG. It looks like nice and I like that it takes AR15 mags. I checked with Atlantic Firearms and they had a Microtech AUG but it was olive drab. I can't do green. :( I need one in black. One other thing I can't seem to find any of those around.

[Coronach]

Thought on the ACR: I wouldn't be suprised if they pushed the ACR back due to the election. They may be waiting to see if a Dem gets elected, at which point they could likely put the line on hold until a ban comes through, which wouldn't specifically name the ACR as it isn't being produced yet.I'm pretty sure they get the same internet we do. I think they know about itThey could also put the product on hold indefinitely so they don't waste capital setting up the production line, only to have the rifle banned. Thoughts?But then you lose all of the development money that Magpul sank into the rifle, all of the tool-up costs Bushmaster is supposedly sinking into the rifle, and Bushmaster loses all of the money they had to pay Magpul up front just to get their grubby mitts on the design. This on top of Bushmaster possibly losing all domestic civvie sales of AR-15s doesn't sound like a good marketing strategy.

Besides, the ban won't happen over night, if it happens at all. It will take your usual 6 months of grandstanding and handwringing.

Mike

[Tarvis]

But then you lose all of the development money that Magpul sank into the rifle, all of the tool-up costs Bushmaster is supposedly sinking into the rifle, and Bushmaster loses all of the money they had to pay Magpul up front just to get their grubby mitts on the design. This on top of Bushmaster possibly losing all domestic civvie sales of AR-15s doesn't sound like a good marketing strategy.

What I was getting at is that BM could be waiting to see if a Dem gets elected so they don't lose more money on the platform. I don't know what the numbers really are, but suppose it looked like this: Additional tooling/setup required: $10 million Lost sales of AR15's due to backorder: $2 million This is what they stand to spend/lose when they complete the ACR line. $12 million which they would have to earn back at the very minimum if they continued the line from this point on. If they scrapped it right now, they would lose their initial investments, but it's better to lose $20 million than to lose $30 million. Now, if they did continue the line, they would have to sell enough rifles before a ban was set in stone to equal $12 million in NET profit so as to make it worth while and not a greater loss of capital than they already experienced. So if they sell the rifles for $2000 and $600 of that is profit, they have to sell 20,000 rifles in order to re-coop the cost of continuing the project after they put it on "election hold."

Please remember this is just a theory and the numbers are imaginary (like my girlfriend). This scenario is what my brain cooked up and is merely for thought and/or to make me look like an idiot when it's shot down ;).

[Coronach]

Yeah, but when they bought the design, they knew what was coming. Unless one thinks that they're playing a high-risk game of buying the design with an eye to securing gov't contracts (which is risky because the AR is and has been "good enough" and the small niche for a nextgen rifle can already be filled by FN's SCAR), it makes little sense for them to buy the design only to sit on it and have the Dems slam the door on civvie sales.

Mike

[Tarvis]

Good point. So what is really on their minds? Did they buy the contract for reasons other than civilian sales, or were they carrying on business as usual despite the presidential election? I suppose if a Dem is elected they are up the creek weather or not they bought the design. Maybe they're going to try and make it ban compliant, or at least have a ban compliant version?

[Coronach]

Since we/they don't know what a ban will look like, I can't imagine that they have any hope of making a ban-compliant version. Personally, I suspect that any future ban, if it happens, will be a ban on all semi-auto rifles, period, and all "high capacity" magazines, period. Anything else turns into the circus that was AWB 1.0, and they don't want to retrace those steps. The likelihood of this happening depends on how strongly the makeup of 2 of the 3 branches of government tilts left this November.

As to what Bushmaster is doing, I think they've bought the ACR design with an eye for marketing it for civilian sales, and with secondary hopes of getting some .gov business after the design proves itself. Unlike Robarm, they have a track record of filling .gov contracts, so the ACR should not meet the same fate as the XCR if another contest comes along. However, they're doing a typically Bushmaster job of it, with the delay from 2Q08 to 1Q09, which translates in to 2or3Q09, which is really starting to get close to the earliest possibility of a ban. If a ban happens and they want to at least break even, they better hope that they can roll it out quickly.

I think they took a risk, but a pretty sane one, if one considered that the design would sell like hotcakes at MSRP or above for at least one year prior to the earliest possible legislative action. They've now dithered that year away.

Mike

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There is also the converse - if McCain gets elected or we win more pro-RKBA seats in Congress, a lot of the impulse for the crazy buying levels we have been seeing lately will evaporate.

[Tarvis]

Yeah, it must be an internal problem at Bushmaster. I don't know what sort of problems they are facing, but when it comes to business decisions I'm a trigger puller, no pun intended. If something needs to happen, you set it up so it will and figure out "how" along the way.

There is also the converse - if McCain gets elected or we win more pro-RKBA seats in Congress, a lot of the impulse for the crazy buying levels we have been seeing lately will evaporate.
Don't hold your breath.

[Kino74]

While alot of the Dems taking office are "proguns" they are still juniors with far left leadership to contend with. I do not forsee a permanent ban but we could be faced with another 10 year ban. If Obama takes office, I have no doubt that HR 1022 will be passed and anyone opposing Obama will be ostracized since Obama is given deity status by MSNBC and other networks.

Gun manufacturers are taking a extremely risky chance waiting till 2009 to release rifles.

[George Hill]

My problems with the XCR? It's not with the rifle its self. I think the design is quite good. My problem is the manufacturer. The company is rather flaky and the rifle would be full of win if anyone else was making it.
I would suggest Kimber or Springfield buy the design and manufacture it... two companies that don't have a rifle already in that category. I think they would do much better with it than RobArms is.
Better customer service.
Better consistency in quality.
Better marketing, promotion and dealer programs.
They don't consistently piss people off who had been helping them sell guns.
Heck, I'd love it if TAURUS was building the XCR.

[everallm]

George,

With all due respect you said exactly the same thing 6 years ago and RA are still out there doing the XCR thing.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116942&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Robinson Arms might go under
I can't tell you how I heard it, but a little bird to me that Robinson Armaments might go under.
These are the guys that make the M96 and import what are probably the finest AK variants ever.

I can't say this news was surprising. The head honcho Alex himself is insistant on being involved in every single move the company makes... this isn't so bad, but Alex has a way of turning people off. Seems Alex's caustic charms are not the only issues, rather that it has become in this last year difficult to get things from R.A. such as repairs... or other customer service services. Thats not cool. Alex may know guns, but I don't think he really knows what he is doing when it comes to selling the guns and creating a loyal customer base.

If I was WILSON COMBAT or KIMBER or ROCK RIVER... I would be looking at buying out RA and taking it over. Because they (R.A.) do have good product.
__________________
MAD OGRE
Last edited by George Hill : 06-12-2002 at 04:37 PM

[PercyShelley]

Whoah whoah whoah!

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=28&t=161050&page=5


Please bother to read the quote above you post that we made eariler.

Magpul is the cause of the delay due to design issues not some tin foil conspiracy from a Bushmaster.

[LoadedDrum]

My problems with the XCR? It's not with the rifle its self. I think the design is quite good. My problem is the manufacturer. The company is rather flaky and the rifle would be full of win if anyone else was making it.
I would suggest Kimber or Springfield buy the design and manufacture it... two companies that don't have a rifle already in that category. I think they would do much better with it than RobArms is.
Better customer service.
Better consistency in quality.
Better marketing, promotion and dealer programs.
They don't consistently piss people off who had been helping them sell guns.
Heck, I'd love it if TAURUS was building the XCR.


Better Customer Service:what::confused:

RA customer service absolutely rocks.
Between Terra and Allison all problems get solved. To suggest Taurus's CS is better than RA's is absurd IMHO.

[George Hill]

"With all due respect you said exactly the same thing 6 years ago and RA are still out there doing the XCR thing."

And they are doing no better than they were then. They are still there... but not only have they not grown... they've shrunk. No more people know what the M96 rifle is then they did 6 years ago. They have even lost one of their best distributor channels. They lost the VEPR II line. Sure the XCR is a bit (but not much) more popular than it was then, but there is no net growth. IN SIX YEARS.
Yeah, they are doing well.... I'm rolling my eyes here. Your comment proves that I was right then just as I'm right again now.
I don't say this gleefully... but regretfully. Because I think the guns are great. I just wish the company had some mojo going on. They don't. Instead they have a guy that promotes bitterness with those that were or could have been allies. That's no way to run a business.

If they improved customer service - great. Color me impressed. Now improve service with DEALERS who sell the guns.

[ny32182]

The XCR is far more popular than the M96 ever was.

And when it comes to SCAR spec rifles, they are the only game in town. Its a fine rifle, and a fine company. They could use some improvement in their marketing strategy, but I buy guns for the guns, not the marketing strategy.

[C-D-P]

Then don't buy a SCAR!

[variablebinary]

Sure the XCR is a bit (but not much) more popular than it was then, but there is no net growth. IN SIX YEARS...

...Your comment proves that I was right then just as I'm right again now...


...Now improve service with DEALERS who sell the guns...



I dont know, my last XCR is in the 2500 range. Taken at face value that is about 1200 XCR's sold a year since intro in late 2006. Quite a jump from the M96 days when they were doing 500 guns a year according to the ATF stats. What's that like? A 40% increase in sales

As for dealers...all the ones local to you dont have a negative word to say about them.

Besides, to be technical, they would have died in 2002 if you were right. Here we are 6 years later with the XCR selling better than the M96 and Vepr. Thankfully for the American arms industry, consider most arent doing anything worth a damn when it comes to new carbines...

[George Hill]

I thought you worked for them... every post of yours have been blowing XCR sunshine. Alex paying by the hour or by the post?
Or are you Alex?
I know a couple dealers that would say otherwise.