[jlangton]

I'm looking at a few options here for a .223 rifle for range duty, plinking, defense, etc...just a good all around rifle.
I think I've narrowed it down to a couple:

Ruger Mini-14
Some kind of AR-15

My budget is approx $700.
I know I can buy a new Ruger for this(and a used one for less than that easily), but I do like the flexibility of the AR-15 for magazines capacity, spare parts availability, etc...but I don't want to end up with a $700 AR-15 with el-cheapo non mil-spec parts that will cause reliability issues in the case of a SHTF situation. Any input?
JL

[fletcher]

Personally, I would go with the AR-15 for the mentioned flexibility. You can get used ones or assemble one yourself using a stripped lower and del-ton "rifle kit" for ~$600. There are also econo-versions from DPMS and CMMG (I think) in that price range.

[briansmithwins]

The biggest consideration in choosing between the Mini-14 and AR15 for me would be magazines: price Mini-14 mags vs AR mags.

Any price advantage the Mini-14 has will be gone by the time you buy a half-dozen mags, assuming you can find reliable mags for the Mini.

Add the modular flexibility of the AR and the choice is clear.

BSW

[ArmedBear]

While I prefer the Mini to the AR for some things, range duty isn't one of them. My Mini has been a good gun for everything but range duty. Not accurate enough for paper punching. You don't know if it's you or the gun that's all over the paper.

[guntotinguy]

Add the modular flexibility of the AR and the choice is clear.

+1

Having both its sometimes a hard position,it depends on the person's preferences.I like the RRA LAR-15 over the Mini-14,but the wife is 'in reverse of this' (go figure)she likes the Mini over the AR.Yep,mags for the AR much easier (and cheaper too IMO but...)

[jlangton]

I'm not gonna be competition shooting with it,mostly just plinking and varmit extermination with an occasional trip to perforate paper.
And of course...if there's a break-in of some sort....
Looking at Mags-I see 30 round AR mags for approx $18.00 each with good reviews,and I see Mini 14 mags with good reviews for approx $30.00 each. That's only $70 difference in magazines if you buy a half-dozen.
When I'm referring to an AR-15, I'm not referring to a non-mil spec gun that has cheapie parts..and I'm certain that a good AR-15 that has reliable mil-spec parts in it will far exceed the $700 budget,or am I looking in the wrong places? I don't care about a collapsible/adjustable stock or any of that mall-ninja add-on junk, I'm just after a simple, functional gun that might get a scope or other optical device mounted at a later date.
JL

[Furncliff]

I've decided to have a local AR15 specialist build me one. My needs and yours appear to be similar and from what I have seen your budget is reasonable for one that's put together for you.

[gotime242]

Saiga.

[ArmedBear]

I'm certain that a good AR-15 that has reliable mil-spec parts in it will far exceed the $700 budget,or am I looking in the wrong places?

I believe you are.

Get a lower for $125 or so. DoubleStar lowers (same company as sells this kit) are good; I have one with lots of rounds through it now. Get this kit: http://jtdistributing.net/store/more_k_c16k.html with a removable carry handle (+$65).

$660 plus a $12 for a roll pin punch set here: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/GNS043-55723-902.html and a little time to put the parts in the lower, (instructions at AR15.com) and you'll have a fine carbine. I have their 20" HBAR rifle set up like that (flattop with removable carry handle) and it's worked quite well. Accurate, too.

Or get the rifle version if you don't mind the extra size and weight. Everyone wants a carbine with a collapsible stock since the ban expired, but the heavy barrel AR-15 rifle is a great shooter. I prefer shooting with the solid rifle stock, but, like everyone else, I got a collapsible M4 stock for another lower, because now I can.:)

[Curiousity]

Tell him to get a Saiga!

[Tarvis]

I saw a NIB 189 series mini 14 ranch rifle go for $560 at a gun show last weekend. I can build a 20" AR for $550. Either is an excelent choice. Overall, I'd say go with the home assembled AR for what it sounds like you want. There are parts you can buy for a mini to upgrade it, but the selection and price for AR parts is far better including magazines. Cheap mini mags can be crap, where as cheap milspec ar mags are $10 from the CMMG bargain bin and work very well (from my experience).

[Z-Michigan]

I have an Ameetec put-together that was about $700 total including the FFL transfer of the lower. It would be slightly more today. I just saw in some magazine that the DPMS "Sportical" has a sticker of $699, so presumably you could buy one for less. It is an AR, but the upper is extruded and missing some standard features that aren't essential (e.g. brass deflector).

You could also consider a Saiga or an STG-2003-C from inter ordnance. Magazine reviews of the STG are great, but the few individual posts I've read are not so glowing.

I would get an AR for magazine and parts availability.

[offthepaper]

I'm looking at a few options here for a .223 rifle for range duty, plinking, defense, etc...just a good all around rifle.



Ever consider a Saiga?

[jlangton]

Ever consider a Saiga?
No,and I won't.
JL

[skinewmexico]

I'd rather have the option of shooting good targets when I punch paper, so I choose AR.

[rangerruck]

Saiga, nuff said. or if not that an STG-2000 c, it is like a saiga, but allready
converted.

[sarduy]

No,and I won't.
JL

why?

i mean, have you had any BAD experience with those? because mine is GREAT.

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/18967/2308686980095461090S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2308686980095461090RagQMH)

[Rex B]

CMMG bargain bin rifles start at $579

Mine is just fine right out of the box

[roscoe]

Saiga.

It is simply the best value for your money, no questions asked.

[aaronrkelly]

I would buy a SAIGA before I would buy the Ruger.

[Girodin]

I think the saiga is a much better buy than the ruger and I am rather curious as to why you would never buy one.

In a contest between an AR and a mini I would get the AR even if you end up going slightly over your budget initially. As stated the price of mags can quickly eat up the price advantage of the mini. There are options that will keep you pretty near $700 though.

[armed85]

If what you want is milspec parts, you'll have to spend quite a lot more than $700. Colt Defense and Lewis Machine and Tool sell milspec rifles which start at over $1,200 plus tax or shipping and FFL transfer. There are some other companies too, but they're just as expensive.

I have an LMT 16" carbine that is milspec with the exception of a 16" barrel (as opposed to 14.5") and no full auto parts. I bought it for a little over $1,300. It only has a peep sight and no fancy optics.

A less expensive way would be to buy a rifle from DPMS, Stag Arms, Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, etc. and then replace the bolt carrier group with a milspec bolt carrier group.

LMT and BCM sell milspec bolt carrier groups for $130. You'll get a milspec bolt carrier with properly staked carrier key, bolt, extractor, cam pin, firing pin, etc.

I've seen a Stag Arms Model 2 on GunBroker.com new in box for $780. Add $130 for an LMT or BCM bolt carrier group and the total is $910. You'll need to factor in around $40 for shipping and around $25 for an FFL transfer if you buy the rifle off the internet.

So in other words, expect to pay a little under $1,000. Maybe an AR isn't the best option for you right now?

[jlangton]

Saiga=Foreign made import. Not gonna have one for that purpose. There's no negotiation there-period. I don't mind having imports for historical collections and fun shooting, but for everyday guns, no.
Ragsdale85 answered the question(s) I had-thanks.
JL

[offthepaper]

Budget,reliable semi-auto .223 rifle

I'm looking at a few options here for a .223 rifle for range duty, plinking, defense, etc...just a good all around rifle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me for making such a miserable suggestion of a Saiga.
Your stated mandates in the original post included:
a) Budget
b) reliable
c) semi-auto .223 rifle

to be used for:
a) range duty
b) plinking
c) defense

Hmmm...
I don't think anyone involved in this thread was aware of your feelings of Foreign made FA's until post # 23. Perhaps including those details in your original post would be helpful and would help avoid you from receiving unwanted suggestions.
Just a suggestion.

[Girodin]

CMMG bargain bin rifles start at $579


They dont have them available online anymore.

[Girodin]

Perhaps including those details in your original post would be helpful and would help avoid you from receiving unwanted suggestions.
Just a suggestion.


Although I think his reasoning is silly and based on a poor understanding of economics and globalization, he did clearly state that he had narrowed it down to the mini or the AR.

Others suggested a third option and what is likely a better choice for his inteded use. No harm there. He explained why that choice didn't interest him. No harm there either or need to get uptight on either side.

Go with the AR even if you need to save up a little longer. Considering the rifle will last longer than you it is worth a little extra $$$ upfront to get what is IMO a much better riffle.

[Red_SC]

Hey Rex B, I was just on CMMG's site, and didn't see any AR's in the Bargin Bin. Hope they're not a thing of the past, I was going to suggest one to someone.

[SSN Vet]

Add the modular flexibility of the AR and the choice is clear.

not to mention the accuracy thing....

[SSN Vet]

if it's not going to be "service duty", I fail to see a need for the "mil. spec. parts" requirement.

An AR is by definition a Mil. Spec. rifle as far as geometry, materials and finish are concerned.

What distinguishes LMT and Colt (in addition to being of very high quality manufacture) is that the critical parts are magnetic particle tested to weed out the one in 10,000 part that "might" fail under extreme conditions.

Heck....Rock River Arms rose to fame winning the ATF M4 contract, and I may be mistaken, but I've never heard any one claim that their critical parts meet the mil. spec. testing requirements. I suspect the ATF feels they purchased quality and reliable weapons.

I've also never heard any one say that their products are in any way cheap. Unless you count the endless rants on AR15.com by guys trying to justify the extra $ the spent on a Colt.


And since your comparing to a Mini...

How much mag. particle testing does Ruger do on their civilian arms?

[armed85]

The Rock River Arms BATFE contract is only for some of the rifles the BATFE purchased. RRA did not "beat" Colt Defense as some people believe. Rather, Colt Defense is making some of the rifles and RRA is making some of the rifles.

There are other things one may or may not be concerned with as far as the "milspec-ness" of a particular AR.

For instance, DPMS, Stag Arms, Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, etc. don't stake the carrier key properly. DPMS doesn't stake at all opting to use loctite on the carrier key nuts rather than staking. Staking should deform the metal around the carrier key nuts to the point where the nuts wont back out. Most of the manufacturers do a poor job staking and sometimes the metal doesn't touch the nuts at all.

As another example, Smith & Wesson has made magazine wells in lower receivers slightly too small. Magpul Pmags wont fit in these lower receivers.

As SSN Vet said, most of the lower cost manufacturers don't magnetic particle inspect barrels, bolt carriers, or bolts. Most don't shot peen the bolt. Furthermore, most of the lower cost manufacturers use 4140 barrel steel rather than milspec 4150.

Keep in mind that not everything about the military spec is awesome despite how tacti-cool it may be. There are some things about the military spec that I really don't care for.

For example, a milspec chrome lined barrel isn't going to have the same accuracy potential as a match grade barrel.

As another example, while the milspec trigger is tough as nails, it's also heavy and full of creep. I've fired my fair share of M16s and my own LMT and they all have heavy creepy triggers.

The milspec magazine is not made of good materials. The thin aluminum is very easy to dent or break. Magpul Pmags and steel magazines with Magpul followers are far better despite not being milspec.

[jlangton]

As for the Saiga...I have my reasons for not wanting a foreign made gun,some may agree, some may not. That's fine with me, I'm not gonna argue with them when they have a differing opinion than I do about something like that. It's their money-they can do whatever they choose to with it.

I had narrowed it down to either a Mini-14 or an AR-15. I can find used Mini-14's for a fair price, and like the little gun-even with it's flaws. But, I'm not totally against an AR-15 due to the modular design, and the availability of parts that are in every little gun shop on every corner in the US. That's the BIG plus with that gun. If I do get an AR-15, I plan on having full mil-spec parts just because that's the only way I'll have one(whether anybody else thinks they're needed or not-frankly it's none of their business).You have to remember, mil-spec is how the M16/AR15 was originally designed and engineered to function without failing. Does that mean it won't fail? Heck no-but it's alot less likely to happen with mil-spec parts in it. I know that somebody is going to argue that some companies make non mil-spec parts that have fired uber-gazillion rounds without fail, and that true mil-spec parts are not necessary, blah, bah, blah, blah...I simply DO NOT CARE how many rounds they have fired,or if they've made millions of these parts with no failures-that's not the point.
I know that Ruger Mini-14's are ALL made with the same components, they're from one supplier, are all identical in spec and engineering. Whether the parts are mag-tested or not is irrelevant-if the parts are all OEM Ruger, then the guns are stone-cold reliable-I've never seen one have problems or failures that weren't caused by an outside issue.
I might buy both....but the AR I'll have to save up for a little longer to get WHAT I WANT.
JL

[armed85]

Well if you do get an AR, do yourself a favor and sacrifice the milspec trigger for a good trigger. Timney makes a good drop in replacement AR trigger.

Life is too short to own a rifle with a crappy trigger.

[jlangton]

I agree Ragsdale85-trigger is not IMO one of the critical parts for durability like the bolt and carrier are.I'll probably start with the mil-sped stuff,and upgrade that later on. Or possibly build one with the mil-spec parts I consider "vital" for durability. It all depends on what I can find when I'm ready to drop the cash-it may be a complete rifle,or a few parts kits. I'm very patient and tend to be irritatingly thorough in my research and shopping for anything I purchase.
Chrome lined barrels, IMO are not necessary-I'll probably end up with a good aftermarket heavy barrel that's made for accuracy.
JL

[JohnBlaze]

www.classicarms.us has an AMERICAN-MADE ar-15 using Colt lowers for $599. Check it out.

and no, I don't work for them, but I have bought plenty of guns off of them dirt cheap, and they deserve the free advertising.

[briansmithwins]

Depending on where you live in TX, that chrome lined barrel may be a good thing.

The chrome was first added due to chamber rusting locking up rifles in Viet-Nam. I wouldn't have a rifle w/o a chrome bore for possible SHTF use. Modern chroming doesn't effect accuracy that much and is much easier to keep clean. Carbon and crud doesn't stick to chrome near as much as steel.

Also, I'd think twice about aftermarket triggers. The stock trigger is pretty reliable and not that bad. Most (all except one) of the triggers I've seen fail were aftermarket.

I'll not own a rifle I can't get 'essential' spares for: firing pin, extractor, hammer and trigger. Good luck getting those spares out of Ruger.

BSW

[walkenbear]

Gotta chime in on this issue.
I like the mini 14, I really like the mini 14, small, light, accessories, folding stocks lots of good points.
But......one major flaw, other than accuracy which can be improved.
Parts, in particular firing pins. Ruger will not sell them to you. They must be factory fitted on an exchange basis. Technically you can't even get a spare made if you send your rifle in for a broken pin, they will replace the broken one but not fit a spare pin. Do firing pins on mini 14's break? Yes, and it seems to be random. Some go forever without a problem, some go 1000- 1500 rounds.
Seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. Some blame wolf ammo (hard primers). There are after market pins, but of unknown quality and availability.
At any rate to send a mini 14 mini back to Ruger for a firing pin is:
$20 pin + $20 Labor + about $30 for shipping & 4-6 weeks wait.
So about $70 & 4-6 weeks.
Ruger MAY replace a pin on warranty, but not likely for a older series or a used rifle.
Sorry, but that is a deal breaker for me, on that one item alone.
AR firing pin is about $10, if it ever even needs it.

Like I said I like the mini, but the Ruger policy of only factory fitting a pin that any gunsmith should be able to do (they will not sell a pin even to a gunsmith), just :cuss:'s!

L8R
W B

[jlangton]

briansmithwins-good input,and something I'll consider. The AR15 is all research right now-I'll read and study for a long time to make up my mind.
JL

[jlangton]

walkenbear-I do not like Ruger's position on the spare parts issue,so we're in agreement there.
JL