[Traviam]

There are a number of law-related personnel around these boards, so I thought I'd bring this question here. Here's the setup:

A guy gets a great deal on a nice gun, and through the course of negotiating a price, discovers that it's not actually registered. Due to the lack of smarter people in the room, he buys it for cash and takes it home. While cleaning it thoroughly, he (finally) discovers that the serial numbers have been crudely scratched out. It's pretty clear at this point that this gun is what they call a "crime gun", and he should find something civically responsible to do with it.

Here's the question:

What should this idiot do with this thing? Three consequences that are unacceptable are: a) keeping it b) giving it to criminals c) being arrested.

Only one serial number was scratched out, and incompletely, so identification is definitely possible, but it's been thoroughly cleaned.

[AZRickD]

Despite what Hollyweird would like us to believe, there are very few jurisdictions in the US which require guns to be registered. Where was *this* gun located?

How do you know it's not registered or has to be?

On what portion of the gun was the serial number removed? The barrel? Buy a replacement barrel. Throw the old one in the sea.

Rick

[tiberius]

What state are you in? Is there really gun registration? If the S/N is still there, just scratched, is this really a problem? Maybe you could just get it cleaned up or something.

[Preacherman]

A few points.

1. Your "hypothetical friend" needn't worry about Federal law if he bought the gun "unregistered" - there is no Federal requirement for gun registration, and private party transactions in the same state are legal. However, the state where he lives may have registration requirements, and that might make the transaction illegal in that state.

2. On the disfigured serial number, that's a BIG no-no. It's a Federal crime to deface a gun's serial number, and can mean a couple of years as the guest of Uncle Sam at Club Fed. Also, because it involves a gun, this would automatically raise the prisoner's "risk profile" with the Bureau of Prisons, and he'd do his time in a high-security penitentiary, along with some of the most unpleasant and anti-social people in the country. Trust me, your hypothetical friend does NOT want to go through this...

3. If the serial number is in more than one location, check which one has been altered. Federal law requires the FRAME of the firearm (on a pistol, the part onto which the slide fits; on a revolver, the frame containing the cylinder and firing mechanism) to bear a serial number. If this is not defaced, I'd say your friend is still legal. I'd take a Dremel to the other number (I'm assuming it's on the barrel or slide) and complete the removal, then re-finish the weapon. However, if the frame's number has been defaced, this is now unfixable except through the BATFE, which is likely to be highly unamused at the situation. There are a couple of possible solutions for your friend in the latter case:

(a) Contact the BATFE through his lawyer, giving FULL details of when, where, how and from whom he bought the gun, and explaining that he did not detect the altered serial number until after he brought it home. If he has good relationships with local law enforcement, he could do this through them to the ATF - but DO have his lawyer involved from the beginning, just in case. Document and/or record every single step of the process, in case he has to defend his position in court.

(b) Discard the weapon, preferably in a permanently unusable condition, somewhere where it will never be found (bottom of a dam?).

(c) Ask the seller for the money back, and return the gun (if the seller will do this). Do NOT threaten the seller with legal consequences via the BATFE - if the seller isn't totally honest, a "threat" like this could lead to very unpleasant consequences, perhaps involving a fight. If the cops come to a fight and find a gun with an altered or defaced serial number, they're going to ask "Whose is it?" Guess who's now in deep doo-doo?

[BowStreetRunner]

im with preach on that one
BSR

[Edward429451]

I'm with preach on everything but dropping a dime on yourself to the feds. I think you could be creating a bigger problem for yourself if they turn on you.

Your friend *ahem* has already messed up by not being careful. Tell him to take the financial hit of the price paid, and burn it smash it drill it pound it unuseable throw it in a lake and the sea and bury it under a mountain and never speak of it again.

I'm all for doing the right thing, but with the track record of the officials turning on good people even when they're trying to do the right thing, I can't imagine how calling the feds could be even close to being the right thing.

I can hear it now...

"Officer, I accidently bought an illegal weapon, would you help me to do the right thing?"

"Sure. Stay where you are, we'll send a car right over..."

You don't have to put yourself on the chopping block to do the right thing. Think about it. And lastly, doan take my advice, I doan know nothin';)

[TearsOfRage]

Don't destroy it - bury it for the time when all guns are equally illegal, or for the use of someone who's already in trouble.

[MJRW]

Lot's of these lately. Odd questions by new forumers. How are all you doing?

[six 4 sure]

I proposed this same question to a dealer friend a few weeks ago. I actually asked what if you “found a gun in a field” without a serial number.

His response was more or less the following.

You will need to bring it to a dealer or somehow get it to the BATFE for two reasons. One you may need a new serial number issued (this is a big pain in the butt). Two if the gun was defaced (serial number’s scratched out) the gun can be x-rayed to determine the original serial number. The x-raying (according to him) is very effective in determining the serial number. If the original serial number can be determined it will then be run through NCIS to establish if the gun has be used in a crime, stolen, or lost.

If the gun comes back clean it’s yours no crime no foul. They will (most likely) require a gunsmith (or someone else) to restamp the original serial number (or newly issued one) on the firearm. Now you have a legally registered firearm.

If they run the serial number and something bad is found you will loose the gun, but since you “found it in a field” you didn’t do anything wrong.

For the record, I have never been lucky enough to find a gun with or without serial numbers “in a field” or anywhere else for that matter.

six

[MJRW]

Ya know, the more I think about this. Let's go ahead and assume this not to be "hypothetical." I only believe it to be hypothetical to the point that I think this is a completely fictitious story from a troll. So, lets ahead and take a look at it.

1. The person apparently thinks they "know" firearms. They claim to be smarter than the room full of people in which they are negotiating a private firearm sale.

2. The person does not know about firearm registration. If they did, they most likely would have included the pertinent information (state). Their state is, by the way, mysteriously missing.

3. The person who claims to know firearms never checks a serial number during the course of the transaction. Even though they apparently know how to take a gun apart and find the serial number if it is one of those weird under the grip jobbers.

It looks awfully trollish to me.

[Baba Louie]

The joys of buying a firearm from a non-FFL...

Could be an expensive lesson.

I hope your friend learned to inspect certain aspects of any firearm before he/she purchases one from a private citizen again. Little things like numbers matching when they oughta (non-military), hoping and praying that said piece is not too warm.

Sometimes ya gotta know when to say no to a good deal, doncha?

If it's got other numbers that match all but the obliturated numeral... who cares?

What jurisdiction requires registration in your friends neck of the woods? County, State, City?

Did your friend get any type of receipt? If so, hang onto it. Ahem, tell your friend to hang onto it. Might want to jot down a note as to place, time, etc as to the particulars of the selling party as well.

Then again, you may not.

Myself, I check out several aspects of a potential purchase, much to the annoyance of said sellor upon occasion. I always ask the products temperature. If I even suspect heat, I carefully remove my grubby little fingerprints and find a reason to be elsewhere.

My dad always told the same old story about buying his first M1 Garand... cheap... and later turning it over to my uncle (who was a city cop and had a friend in the FBI who found out that some armory in OK was missing a rifle that fit the description) and the subsequent visit by the federales to ask him, who, where and when. Lessons learned.

"You play with a hot piano, you get your fingers burned" Barney Rubble to Fred Flintstone

Adios

[hillbilly]

I agree with some other posters here.

"New Member" asks a question about a potential illegality and yet doesn't know basic facts about gun "registration."

I'm betting that this New Member is a troll, perhaps even an anti-gunner troll from someplace like Democrat Underground, or the Million Moms trying to get a bunch of so-called "gun nuts" to tell him or her all sorts of illegal things to do with a shady firearm.

But then again, I have often been accused of being a paranoid hillbilly.....

hillbilly

[Malone LaVeigh]

I believe this person, if real, has an obligation to report the piece to the authorities and give any information they may have on it. What if the gun had been used in a crime? This piece of evidence might be all that's needed to solve the case.

[gunsmith]

whomever sold a gun with a scratched off serial# is an idiot.
Whats the point?
Someone has been watching stupid TV shows.
it is easy to find the serial # with modern tech.
Find a police buyback and get at least a little $$
for it....
do not turn your ex friend in cause the police won't guard you 24/7
FIND NEW FRIENDS

[tiberius]

Yeah, you're right, It's a troll.

S/He must be disapointed though...Those of us who bit either questioned the merits of the issue or offered very safe and sound advice. One or two jokes aside, I don't think s/he got what they were after.

[HBK]

All this talk of registration makes me cringe, or at least want to barf. I know everyone here knows, with the possible exception of Traviam, that there is no requirement for guns to be registered in the US. Furthermore, history shows that registration is merely a prelude to confiscation which renders the public defenseless.
:barf:

[fallingblock]

Merits saying again:

"history shows that registration is merely a prelude to confiscation which renders the public defenseless."

If you don't yet accept that premise....have a look at what's been happening in Australia.:barf:

[Hal]

[soapbox/on]
Ahem. Gentlemen. Calling troll on a new member is questionable at best. I've always enjoyed the live and let live attitude displayed by members of both TFL and THR in regards to "asking stupid questions". None of us were born with complete knowledge of all firearm laws/procedures and know how. I vastly prefer the open "when in doubt of the veracity of the poster, go with the idea they really are for real" attitude as opposed to the shrieking and childishness of forums like DU and the other so called liberal boards.

It's important to remember, the fight is for the middle ground, not the extreme end. If we allow ourselves to be dragged down to the level of the opposition, what kind of message does that present to the on lookers?
The poster above may be or may not be legit. A fair question was asked, and fair answers given. Should be 'nuff said. Leave unfounded suspicions and accusations to the other side.
[soapbox/off]

[Art Eatman]

By the date/time of the first post, it's an "Evening Internetter". So, the "troll thing" oughta be resolved this evening, right? Anything before then is speculation...

:), Art

[gun-fucious]

Kind of an atypical first post

it at least warrants a handsignal
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=444778

[bogie]

There are a number of law-related personnel around these boards, so I thought I'd bring this question here. Here's the setup:

One thing you have to also understand here is that a lot of law enforcement folks DO NOT know firearms law. Us "gun nuts" HAVE to know the law, and know it well, so that when we run into some person who DOESN'T know the law, it doesn't reach up and bite us...

[Kharn]

Two if the gun was defaced (serial number’s scratched out) the gun can be x-rayed to determine the original serial number. The x-raying (according to him) is very effective in determining the serial number. If the original serial number can be determined it will then be run through NCIS to establish if the gun has be used in a crime, stolen, or lost.

It depends how the serial number was removed. If it was stippled (hit with a hammer and punch, I might have spelled it wrong), it's probably gone for good, but if it was just filed/dremeled/milled off they can probably recover it. They check for the serial number by using an acid to etch the metal and then looking at it under a microscope, which highlights the grain boundaries and they can see where the metal was compressed (by the punch that stamped the serial number) which is why stippling over a serial number pretty much prevents its recovery. Obviously, this wouldnt work with a gun with a laser-engraved serial number, which is now an approved process for marking firearms and the ATF has issued a regulation saying the minimum depth each letter must be engraved to in order to be legal.

One thing is to check for multiple serial numbers, strip the pistol and see if it was marked under the grip panels or mainspring housing. I doubt criminals amateur enough to only partially remove a serial number would attempt to field-strip their pistols, so a serial number under there might still be intact.

Kharn

[Ebbtide]

OK, if you are really worried that you broke some kind of law, take it to the police and explain how you got it. Given the little info you gave us it would be hard to offer complete answers.

As others stated, it is unlikely you did anything illegal. But check with the local authorities.

Hope this helps,

ehenz

[Leatherneck]

TraviamHere's the setup:
Yeah, that's about it. Good job, guys. :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Keith]

Whoa!

That gun is likely stolen and belongs to somebody! I don't know how it works in other states, but in Alaska you can call your local PD and have the number run against a stolen guns list - with no questions asked. If it's stolen, you can then get the gun back to the owner and (presumably) your money back from the guy who sold it to you.

Keith

[Traviam]

Trying not to turn into a troll post. Loved the hand signal.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this guy's in Pennsylvania, where "No person shall possess a firearm which has had the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver altered, changed, removed or obliterated." (18 Pa. C.S.A. § 6110.2 (a)) and "A person who violates this section commits a misdemeanor of the first degree" (b). Misdemeanor 1 is up to five years.

Furthermore, let's say the seller just moved out of the state, or is otherwise unavailable.

To flesh out this imaginary fellow, we'll imagine that he (male) has no prior criminal record, and has good standing in the community, with the notable exception of a handful of retired cops who still hang around the station. He gave them a hard time about their lousy moral fiber once, and had some carefully chosen words about the way they trained new recruits. Also, he used the term "hippie-stompers" in a fairly negative way.

[Traviam]

Semantic note: "Lack of smarter people in the room" means "Nobody to talk him out of it and/or tell him he's a nimrod." Sorry for any confusion.

[Edward429451]

has no prior criminal record, and has good standing in the community, with the notable exception of a handful of retired cops

All the more reason to play it safe. He should protect his criminal record b/c it will be with him for life. Stand offish relationship with the local LEO's? Why wouldn't they charge him? They are not his friend and could reasonably be assumed to react in his life in a negative way, to put it mildly.

OTOH, that doesn't mean he shouldn't do the right thing by the community. Render it inoperable, disassembled as much as possible, spread thin and deep. Everybody wins, Clean record for your friend, John Law gets a lighter shift, and one less gun that could fall into criminal hands.

I'd do it fast. Every second that that thing is in someones house is exposing everyone there to all kinds of danger from the law. Not a nice thing to do to someone.

Godspeed.:)

[Orthonym]

Borazon (Boron Nitride) disc in circular saw is good, muriatic acid, maybe VERY hot fire? Make the problem go away.

[KP95DAO]

Preacherman,

"2. On the disfigured serial number, that's a BIG no-no. It's a Federal crime to deface a gun's serial number, and can mean a couple of years as the guest of Uncle Sam at Club Fed. Also, because it involves a gun, this would automatically raise the prisoner's "risk profile" with the Bureau of Prisons, and he'd do his time in a high-security penitentiary, along with some of the most unpleasant and anti-social people in the country. Trust me, your hypothetical friend does NOT want to go through this..."


Sorry, Preacherman, you have given yourself over to a bit of hyperbole. As you know, or should anyway, the fact that a firearm was part of the crime does not, in and of itself, raise the security level of a BOP prisoner so that they would end up in a Penitentiary as apposed to a FCI. Actually, you have to have been a fairly bad boy to get into a Pen anymore, to say nothing of staying there.

[Preacherman]

the fact that a firearm was part of the crime does not, in and of itself, raise the security level of a BOP prisoner so that they would end up in a Penitentiary as apposed to a FCI. Not so, good buddy. We have several at the Pen where I work who are there precisely for this reason. All their other "points" are at FCI level: the one and only factor that puts them in the higher-security institution is the fact that a firearm was involved. I don't mean using a firearm in a crime, either: the mere illegal possession of a firearm, or legal possession of an illegal firearm, was enough to make the difference. I can think of at least a dozen cases offhand...

[Johnny Guest]

Let us presume for just a moment that the original question was asked in good faith, and disregard the possible trolling aspects of it. (Yes, it sounds that way to me, too, but let's treat it as a square deal.)

The poster tells us the serial number is NOT completely obliterated. And yet some of you are counseling him to go ahead and completely deface, alter, or obliterate the manufacturer applied number?

Well, STOP IT NOW! Telling others to break the law is NOT taking the High Road, and is NOT acceptable on this board.

Traviam, if you're for real, and have gotten stuck in such a situation, and really want to get right with the law, you'd be well advised to get with the local authorities, or even the feds, show good faith, tell how you came into possession, request an opinion on the legality of the gun as it is now. To start with, you state While cleaning it thoroughly, he (finally) discovers that the serial numbers have been crudely scratched out. Then a few lines later, you write, Only one serial number was scratched out, and incompletely, so identification is definitely possible, but it's been thoroughly cleaned. Make up your mind, huh? I have a least two pistols with numbers on slide and frame. If the number on the frame is intact, it is legal, even though the slide number is ground off for cosmetic reasons. The slide could also be changed, and the pistol remains legal.

If you are not sure which is which, you need assistance anyhow. If you are nervous about your relationship with the local constabulary, consult an attorney. There's bound to be at least one such active in a local gun club who'll listen and give a bit of advice to a fellow shooter. (No, don't look for him/her to make a court appearance to represent you without being paid.)

As mentioned by others:
1. That gun belonged to SOME legitimate owner, at SOME point. If it had been stolen from you, YOU would want to get it back, right? And you expect some honest purchaser to try to have it returned to you if the situation was reversed.
2. It should be a simple matter to restore enough of the defaced number to verify the others numbers.

When you submit the gun to the agency for examination, they will probably want to retain it for checking. Obtain a receipt for it so you can get it back when the checking is complete, if it cannot be shown to be stolen.

If the weapon might indeed be a "crime gun," how could a person of good conscience obstruction of recovery of evidence which could aid in solution of the matter?

Friends, there has been much discussion of how to treat threads where members counsel violation of the law. THR Staff is somewhat divided on hypothetical discussion of "civil disobedience," but general consensus is that advocacy of felony activity potentially harmful to others is not acceptable. Look for such posts to be deleted and the reasons stated.

Johnny Guest

[Keith]

I just hope that if I ever have a gun stolen, it doesn't end up in the hands of most people here.
The honorable and ethical thing is to return stolen property, not destroy it, tuck it away as your own, etc.

I'm really surprised at lack of ethical standards revealed by this thread.

Keith

[Orthonym]

with honest people. I just think that I and some others here don't trust the govt boys to act in good faith and do the right thing. I recall an occasion when I called the police for help and the officer threatened to arrest everyone (to avoid having to listen, as far as I could tell). I had been assaulted, had property damaged, my SO was threatened with violence.

So, yeah, the way things actually are, I would regretfully counsel complete obliteration of the piece in question. (Especially because this is only hypothetical, right?:rolleyes: )

Edited for spelling

[Keith]

That's just paranoia. It's perfectly legal to make a private purchase of a handgun.
If you later discover that the serial number has been tampered with you have nothing to fear in taking your suspicions back to the seller, or to the police.
This is almost certainly a stolen gun and if you keep it you are trafficking in stolen guns. If you destroy it, you are allowing gun traffickers to get off the hook.

Why be part of the problem?

Keith

[Orthonym]

1.CAVEAT EMPTOR !

2. "...nothing to fear.." ROFL!

[Newton]

Just show us a picture with the serial # carefully obscured.

I'm thinking that your digital camera may be in for repair :scrutiny:

[geekWithA.45]

All too sadly, honest men and women get themselves into all sorts of trouble naively wandering into police stations with dubious firearms.

Most LEO type folks operate in good faith, but plenty enough don't.

Get a GUN LAWYER. That's what THEY'RE FOR.