[coldshot03/04]

What kind of accuracy do you really expect from a mousegun?
I'm thinking that if I can hit my target at 7yds or less, then my mousegun is doing its job. I see and hear folks talking about 25yd groups. And Center Mass? Im thinking Gut, belly, and stick it in their ear shots.

I am talking about very short barrel guns here. Minis, P32, Etc.

So What do you think?

[Snake Eyes]

Short Answer: None.

I qualified on the Nevada CCW test with my Baby Browning .25, but it wasn't easy--or pretty. (go here (http://www.gmj.com/nsca_training_standards.php) if you're interested in the qualification standards)

I did the qualification because I had to if I wanted the gun listed on my permit. I don't really want to carry this gun as my only CCW, but I wanted to have the option.

I wouldn't attempt to use it at anything over contact distance.


Peter

[TheeBadOne]

When talking about defense guns period, you must consider 2 things.

1) Target accuracy

2) Combat accuracy

I consider mouse guns as contact to short range weapons. 7 yards is about what I figure for mouse gun max. I can do quite a bit better while punching paper targets, but they don't shoot back or wait for me to line up for a few seconds on a rest.

(I've found carry methods for my Kahr MK-9 that have left my LWS .32 sitting in the vault, the best of both worlds).

All the best

[coldshot03/04]

Those guns(Browning) are really small arent they? I saw one that a buddy of mine has. I tried to buy it but he wasnt selling.;)

[Snake Eyes]

Those guns(Browning) are really small arent they?
Tiny.

When gripping it, the ONE finger I can get below the trigger guard hangs off the bottom. It's almost impossible for me to get a grip that doesn't give me slide bite.

I know if I ever have to use it in a hurry, I'll end up bleeding. Hopefully only from the slide bite!

Peter

[denfoote]

My mousegun gets sub 1" groups at 10 yards.
It's a Kahr MK9. :D

[ThirdShiftRich]

http://thirdshiftrich.com/dump/arms/2202.jpg

I just point and shoot, I can usually keep it on an 8x10 sheet of paper at 7-10 yards without issues. Using the sights is a waste of time though, and at the price of 22LR nothing is a waste of money with that thing... I use my previous shot to adjust the next...

[mtnbkr]

With my P32, I get 2"-3" groups at 5yds. I can keep it on paper out to 10yds, but the sights are just too crude to do better than that. I mostly point shooting with it.

Chris

[Mike Irwin]

I have a Taurus TP-22.

I can keep 9 shots inside of a fist sized group at 7 yards if I do my job.

[KMKeller]

Okay. Next time I head out to the range with Fed168, I'll take my Beretta 21 Bobcat (.25 ACP) and I'll shoot some groups (rapid and slow fire) for ya as a test. Better yet, I'll shoot the PPC Duty Semi-Auto match COF with it and post the results.

[C.R.Sam]

Partner got a Kel Tec 32 a while back. I got the first magazine worth in a playing card sized group at 10 yds, aimed rapid fire, on first try. Group center was bout two inches off of point of aim.

But, I have years of shooting with issue GI sights on 1911. And years of shooting little guns.

Watched two ol codgers doin a sudden death shoot at silhouette heads at just short of 70 yds. Alternating shooters. Went to the fifth shot before a miss.

The little ones require a LOT of practice.

One caveat.....the little fellers are easy to lose in a pocket. I know an experienced shooter who lost his for several days....and found it in the laundry hamper.:D

Sam

[Mike Irwin]

"Watched two ol codgers..."

Heheheheh...

Truly a case of the ancient pot calling the kettle prehistoric! :p

[coldshot03/04]

C.R.Sam, I lost my P32 the very first day that I brought it home.:o I left it on my bed and had thrown a tee shirt on top of it.:D I like to had never found my new little gun.;) I was about ready to call in and report it lost or stolen.:eek: :o :D

[22luvr]

If I can place ALL of my shots into a paper plate target at 5-7 yards shooting as quickly as I can pull the trigger, that passes for my criteria. What really makes it challenging it to post 2 paper plates and rapidly empty your clip or cylinder while alternating shots back and forth.

[C.R.Sam]

Truly a case of the ancient pot calling the kettle prehistoric!

Yup

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

There's nothing wrong with attempting to achieve decent accuracy with any gun. I have a little .22 like that Sterling that is as accurate at 25 yards as most 9mms - it makes it more fun to practice with.

Realistically, the size of the gun has no bearing on mechanical accuracy. If it is well designed and has a controllable trigger and useable sights, it will hit targets.

Does any CCW gun have to be more than 7 yard accurate, anyway?

[Gordon]

I have a couple Astra 's (er Junior Colt's) that are real accurate IF you can use the tiny sights. The .22 short one can do about 4-5" at 25 yds on a godd day with Winchester HV hollow points(27 grains of death!).

[George Hill]

The .32NAA Guardian that I tested last year was the last mouse gun that I have fired. It was a pre-production prototype.

Printing on paper at about 7 yards was kind fun. After I got use to the shockingly sharp recoil for a .32 I was able to settle it down and print decent groups.
The sights are horrible, and so is the trigger... but with concentration I could print 3 inch groups with it.
I bet that if the sights and trigger were better, I could have made a 2 inch group. Better sights are a factory option now for it. Trigger work could be done or just a lot more shooting would have smoothed it out too.

I think the main issue of inaccuracy in these guns are the fact that they are just really really hard to shoot well with and people just make the excuse that the gun is innacurate. If the gun really is inaccurate, it's probably because the bullet isn't fully engaging the rifling, and if that is the case, try a different load. As long as there is barrel length enough to engage the rifling and put a spin on the slug - length has little to do with accuracy. With really really short barrels, I think the slug is sliding across the rifling instead of spining... this is why some mouse guns can really be just plain inaccurate. Like the little Astra Cub I once had. That thing didn't have much in the way of rifling to begin with.
Think of it like a fast car trying to take a high speed curve on a muddy road.

[Oleg Volk]

Slow fire, P32 is good for pop cans up to 12 yards...with practice and slow fire. Some guns (incl. Sterling 302) are good for a gallon jug at the same range.

[coldshot03/04]

Oleg replied to my post? :cool: Cool!!!!!!!
Nice websites that you have Mr. Oleg Volk.

[clubsoda22]

Bersa = 1 ragged hole at those ranges. With a fixed barrel like any of the walther style pistols, accuracy is nearly 100% shooter. On the nevada CCW course they'd probably yell at me for shooting too fast. Empty the gun in 2 seconds and qualify.

[happy old sailor]

i expect minute of thorax accuracy, rapid fire, at 3 to 5 yards. i have no plans to assume my nra stance and shoot for the eyeball. paper plates at this distance have no chance. same drill for the snubby revolvers.

BG's usually don't come in one's. so, the idea of several plates and alternating shots makes much sense.

practice with what you carry. no quarter when you shoot.

[10-Ring]

I shoot my Jetfire at close distances...21' & less. At these distances, it's a fine performer.

[Deepdiver]

My VZOR 70 does 4 inch groups at 20 yards if I do my part. It's actually a good little personal defense gun in terms of size (for concealment) accuracy, and firepower (8+1) - but a little light in caliber (.32ACP). That being said, I am still a believer in shot placement over caliber as a general rule of thumb.

[DBR]

My Colt Mustang Pocketlite will hit 8" plates at 25yds with boring regularity.

[UnSafe]

A point of concern with little pistols is the tendency to shift in the hand (OK, thumb and two finger grip) from recoil. Makes it tough to maintain shot to shot placement consistency. At a well lit range (That doesn't shoot back), we use the visual feedback of the target holes and sense of the pistol's motion in the hand to adjust point of aim. Good practice, but may lead some to think they can hit COM at ranges far beyond "Belly".
A cheap practice technique is to end your practice session by shooting in low light (About 45 min past sunset or so), staple pie plates over COM or paste over all of the target holes and loosely "Clothe" your silhouette targets with dark shirts or jackets (0.99 thrift store stuff, or that '70's suit with the vest thats been lurking in the closet :rolleyes: ).
Anyway, have a friend set up 2-3 targets at various distances & directions within the range safety fan while your back is turned (Pistol unloaded, slide locked to rear please [Unless P-3AT, my latest interest]). Then load, holster/conceal, turn around, draw and engage all of the targets with whatever pattern you believe appropriate- Double tap to torso, Mozambique, etc. Start slow, work on the "Rhythm" before you try blaze away. It's surprisingly hard to maintain shot to shot consistency without the sensory cues.
It'll keep ya' from getting a big head after an afternoon of punching the COM out of targets with careful aimed fire in good light:eek:
I'm thinking of trying the Agrip stuff to help reduce the shift issue. We'll see how it goes.
Safe shooting!

[makdaddy03]

Put the KT up against the old IntraTec ProTec 22lr. Accuracy was about the same. But the Old Protec functioned every single round.:D :neener:

[PCRCCW]

"Bersa = 1 ragged hole at those ranges. With a fixed barrel like any of the walther style pistols, accuracy is nearly 100% shooter."

Actually, this is not true.

A fixed barrel gun is not inherently more accurate than a locked breech. The barrel is fixed to the frame and the sights are on the slide...which floats on rails like any other gun.
How tight the frame/slide set up is on blowback guns dictates the guns inherent accuracy.
Locked Breech guns that lock up tight in the rails and barrel will be just as accurate.
Typically, the tighter locked breech guns are easily as accurate as the higher end blow back guns....if not more so.

Shoot well

[Apple a Day]

I've got a little Taurus PT-22. I was at the range yesterday, and plugged 100 rounds through it. It had one hiccup because of a bad primer. I popped the round out, rotated it 180 degrees, and it fired. Here is a pic of my target. I just eyeballed and quick-fired, taking out stress. This is a B-34RC target shot at 25 feet.
http://www.msnusers.com/grubepics/Documents/pt%2D22acc.gif
You can see all of the rounds inside the 7 ring, even when blasting away with minimal aiming, which is all I want the gun for. I figure if I can pepper a target at 25' just capping away then it's good enough for a mousegun. The CD is in the pic for size comparison.

[Dr.Rob]

My 1922 mfg'd Colt vest pocket .25 will shoot 6 shot fist sized groups all day at 5 yards. At 7 yards it opens up to palm sized. (and that was before I got a proper Colt magazine for it)

Pretty good for a noisy 80 year old cricket. Sights re pretty small, gun is awfully heavy, needs a re-blue. Shoots just fine. No jams.

[GeorgeH]

I own several mouse guns, and I have to admit that they all shoot well enough to be effective at 21 feet.