Exploding Targets: Tannerite


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CherenkovBlue
May 23, 2008, 01:21 PM
a friend of mine recently told me about a product called tannerite
it sounds too good to be true (or legal)

could someone tell me more about this product?
such as, what is it exactly, how does one go about getting it? and is it legal, and if so, will it stay legal?

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Lex
May 23, 2008, 01:23 PM
http://www.tannerite.com/

JesseL
May 23, 2008, 02:02 PM
It is legal, kinda pricey, and enough fun to make you giggle like a schoolgirl. Your cheeks will hurt from grinning too much.

You get targets that contain the bulk of the explosive and a container of the catalyst that must be added to sensitize the targets to make them work. Either compound alone is totally stable, and mixed it's still incredibly stable. Nothing less than a rifle round will detonate it.

You can order it over the phone or from the website.

Go get some before they figure out how to ban it.

taliv
May 23, 2008, 02:07 PM
tannerite rocks

GigaBuist
May 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
Ry Jones, assistant at Boomershoot, had something to say about Tannerite the other day: http://blog.ryjones.org/2008/05/22/wishing-doesnt-make-it-so/

I don't think I'll be ordering any.

Vicious-Peanut
May 23, 2008, 02:52 PM
I remember seeing something about the size of Gatorade bottle caps that were similar to tannerite, but much cheaper and they had a couple of sensitivity levels, like .22, centerfire handgun, and centerfire rifle. I wish I remembered what it was...

H2O MAN
May 23, 2008, 02:55 PM
Sub sonic ammo won't set it off ...

Vicious-Peanut
May 23, 2008, 02:59 PM
Tannerite, or what I was talking about? If what I mentioned do you remember what they were?

Found them, but they are actually more expensive unless you get the little .22 ones - http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=359180&kwtid=272230

DoubleTapDrew
May 23, 2008, 03:06 PM
It's legal. They need a centerfire round to be set off so I don't think it's much of a concern to the ATF. It's not like someone will bring a few pounds of the stuff on an airplane then pull out an AK-47 to set it off.
Vicious: I remember what you are talking about but can't find them right now. The two I found are: Bullz-I (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=10929)(definitely not the one I'm thinking of), and True Shot (http://www.true-shottargets.com/) (might be the ones).

RyJones
May 23, 2008, 04:07 PM
Hi,
Ry Jones here, Assistant Director of the Boomershoot (http://boomershoot.org/). The ATFE definition of explosive does not include the detonation method; that an explosive is or is not impact sensitive does not matter when it comes to laying out rules for handling, transport, or storage. For that matter, it doesn't matter when it comes to prosecution, either.

Please choose your battles with the ATFE wisely. If you want to read the "bible" of federal explosives law, read the Orange Book (http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/index.htm). DoubleTapDrew, you're from Oregon; here is what appears to be the law that applies (http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/480.html):
480.210 Certificate of possession required; exceptions; display of certificate upon demand; defenses.
(1) A person may not possess an explosive unless:

(a) The person has in immediate possession at all times during the possession of the explosive a valid certificate of possession issued to the person under ORS 480.235; or

(b) The person is licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to be a manufacturer of explosives, a dealer in explosives or the authorized agent of such a manufacturer or dealer.
(2) A person in possession of an explosive shall display a certificate of possession upon the demand of the issuing authority, a magistrate or a law enforcement agency, public fire department or fire protection agency of this state.

(3) It is a defense to a charge under subsection (1) of this section that the person so charged produce in court:

(a) A certificate described in subsection (1)(a) of this section that was valid at the time of the arrest of the person; or

(b) Proof that the person is licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to be a manufacturer of explosives, a dealer in explosives, or the authorized agent of such a manufacturer or dealer. [1971 c.518 3; 1999 c.980 3; 2007 c.71 159]

I don't know how a plain reading of the law squares with your statement that "it's legal". Yes, if you have an ATFE license, it is legal. As I said on my blog, those $295 DIAS in Shotgun News are legal, too.

PTK
May 23, 2008, 04:20 PM
And if you have an explosives user permit (which is needed to legally use Tannerite), there are cheaper and more fun things than Tannerite. :)

JesseL
May 23, 2008, 04:48 PM
I don't know how a plain reading of the law squares with your statement that "it's legal". Yes, if you have an ATFE license, it is legal. As I said on my blog, those $295 DIAS in Shotgun News are legal, too.

IANAL, nor am I licensed in any capacity regarding explosives, but that is a gross oversimplification. There are a whole lot of "explosives" that I know are legal in numerous states without any BATFE concern. Everything from those little paper wrapped snap caps to fireworks. Tannerite may not be as legal as Mr. Tanner claims (I'm inclined to believe it is, as long as it's used as soon as it's mixed and not transported after mixing), but that snippet of law certainly doesn't prove much either way.

Vicious-Peanut
May 23, 2008, 05:10 PM
Tannerite is a Binary explosive, as it has two parts and neither one of them is explosive without the other, therefore it isn't regulated by the BATFE if I remember correctly.

One of my other hobbies is high powered rocketry and we have igniter dips that are also binary explosives and the BATFE cant regulate them like they do everything else.

.cheese.
May 23, 2008, 05:27 PM
we have igniter dips that are also binary explosives and the BATFE cant regulate them like they do everything else.

same for ematches used in fireworks displays. To buy them pre-made, you need a license, the same kind you need to use 1.3G display fireworks.

However, you can make a very nice display with 1.4G fireworks, but the tricky part is in ignition. To use an ignition system with 1.4G fireworks, you need to pair ematches to the visco fuse. You can't buy ematches, for reasons I just mentioned. You can however, order dip kits that are binary to make the needed pyrogen for ematches, after that you just attach some nichrome wire to leads, dip the nichrome in the pyrogen, and let it dry. More or less the same thing as the ones you'd buy with a license.

As far as I know, it's legal.

Disclaimer - this information is provided for purposes of a legal discussion of the Tannerite product on THR. It is not intended for usage in any illegal or destructive fashion! Do not use this information for manufacturing illegal products, explosives, or any other illegal purpose. If you do, you accept full responsibility for your idiotic actions. I'm not joking. The law is serious business.

Vicious-Peanut
May 23, 2008, 05:36 PM
Exactly, you would probably even use the same products that we use!

Mind if I steal you disclaimer? lol

.cheese.
May 23, 2008, 05:37 PM
go for it.

RyJones
May 23, 2008, 05:43 PM
PTK:
And if you have an explosives user permit (which is needed to legally use Tannerite), there are cheaper and more fun things than Tannerite.

Amen.



JesseL:
IANAL,
Nor I
nor am I licensed in any capacity regarding explosives,
Got you beat there
but that is a gross oversimplification. There are a whole lot of "explosives" that I know are legal in numerous states without any BATFE concern.
Yes. Medicines are explicitly exempted in Washington state, for instance.
Everything from those little paper wrapped snap caps to fireworks.
Oh. Those aren't explosives; they are regulated by the ATFE, though. Just under a different set of rules.
Tannerite may not be as legal as Mr. Tanner claims (I'm inclined to believe it is, as long as it's used as soon as it's mixed and not transported after mixing)
While you may wish this to be true, it is not. In a perfect world (one where the ATFE doesn't exist), you're right. And I completely disagree with the ATFE existing or having any right under the Constitution to regulate squat. Doesn't change things.
, but that snippet of law certainly doesn't prove much either way.
You're welcome to read the surrounding sections. I gave you a link to the law.



Vicious-Peanut:
Tannerite is a Binary explosive, as it has two parts and neither one of them is explosive without the other, therefore it isn't regulated by the BATFE if I remember correctly.

Unmixed, this is partly true. Once mixed, it is regulated by the ATFE. Before it is mixed, the AN part of the equation is regulated under a new law (new this year) about controlling access to AN. However, it is a paperwork shuffle on the licensee's end, not yours.

One of my other hobbies is high powered rocketry and we have igniter dips that are also binary explosives and the BATFE cant regulate them like they do everything else.
I don't want to get into what the ATFE can or cannot regulate, as it seems every day they find a way to regulate something new. However, the ATFE seems to think (http://xtratime.net/LEUP/CodeAnalysis.htm) it has the right to regulate high power rocketry. As for the fuse you're talking about, I couldn't find it in a quick google. Rocketry Planet (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,33/Itemid,72/limit,50/limitstart,0/) provides links to ATFE letters on club activities, as well.

To be super-explicit here, I'm on the side of "the ATFE has no right to exist". However, until they're gone, they're the law of the land. Many states do not further regulate explosives beyond delegation to the federal level; lawmaking through reference is annoying, but it happens all the time. Another, more plain way of saying this is the state law will say "federal law in this area applies as if it were state law" and that's the whole law.

Killermonkey21
May 23, 2008, 07:13 PM
Go to the Boomershoot. (read my sig)

Ry Jones and Joe Huffman do not disappoint.

On the subject of this, though. I would highly suggest doing a LOT of legal beagling before venturing into this territory. Seriously.

Carry on.

Jeff White
May 23, 2008, 07:44 PM
I don't know much about how explosives are regulated. But I do know that Mr. Jones certainly does. He's in the business. I think you ignore his good advice at your peril. The days of going to the hardware or farm supply store and getting some dynamite and caps to blow some tree stumps on your property are over. A lot of things changed after Sep 01.

Jeff

zxcvbob
May 23, 2008, 08:02 PM
The days of going to the hardware or farm supply store and getting some dynamite and caps to blow some tree stumps on your property are over

That's my cue for a joke:

Caleb had recently graduated from the forestry college at Texas A&M. So he set up shop and the first was a call from a farmer who wanted to remove a large tree stump from his section. Caleb loaded up his truck and headed out. As he had never used dynamite before for stump removal he wasn't quite sure how to go about it. So he whupped out his tape measure and stalled for time by making a lot of measurements while he figured out what to do next. Well one can only stall for so long, especially with the farmer looking on. So Caleb put the dynamite under the stump and took shelter at a safe distance so that he could set it off. BOOM. He must have put in a bit too much charge. The stump lifted off gracefully into the air and arced down to demolish his truck's cab. The farmer was impressed. "Hey there young fella. With a bit of practice you will get it to land in the box everytime."

JesseL
May 23, 2008, 08:22 PM
There have been two cases that I'm aware of, in which someone was arrested in direct connection with Tannerite use.

Both arrests were for the way the Tannerite was used (gross disregard for human life and destruction of property with an explosive or incendiary, and negligently placing a device that might cause a fire) and there weren't any charges in connection with the possession or mixing of the Tannerite. I find it very hard to believe that the authorities would hesitate to charge them for this if it was in any way illegal.

In another case, a BATFE EOD expert testified under oath that Tannerite is not illegal.

http://danrileyld.blogspot.com/2008/03/trial-day-5.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/cac/pressroom/pr2007/101.html

RNB65
May 24, 2008, 05:02 PM
Tannerite is great. I've been to several shoot where folks have used it. Nice deep boom and a big white cloud. Good stuff.

:)

Kentak
May 24, 2008, 11:02 PM
Here's a Tannerite use felony case. Anyone know the status of this case and the charges?

http://wcco.com/crime/prairie.island.explosion.2.631915.html

chris in va
May 25, 2008, 01:23 AM
I tell you what. It's almost impossible to find pure AN, even at a 'farm store'. There's some on ebay but $$$.

meef
May 25, 2008, 04:12 AM
Well, check this out. For your consideration......

Tannerite Inc. Says:
24 May 2008 at 9:43

Wow, the ignorance abounds! FYI, the state certificate of possession is no longer issued by the state of Oregon. Their whole state explosives program has been eliminated and the laws regarding possession do not exist.

You see, in 2003, the “Safe Explosives Act” was passed by the ATFE, requiring a federal license to purchase any explosive. However, you may still manufacture your own explosive for personal NON-commercial use, (Read it in the Federal Orange Book). But it must be used the same day it is made in order to be in compliance with storage laws.

Now, Tannerite rifle targets are further exempt from regulatory control. They fall into the same class as Black Powder. Black Powder is regulated as an explosive (1.1D in 100 lbs or over, 4.1 in under 50 lbs if DESIGNED FOR SPORTING USE IN CONJUNCTION WITH SPORTING ARMS.

All states allow the possession explosives in conjunction with sporting use. You are allowed to make your own version of black powder, and you are allowed to mix Tannerite (essentially just another version of black powder…but louder, and more stable/safe)

In 13 years, I just can’t believe how ignorant people are on law. Have you ever seen a person get criminally charged for using Tannerite as a target? I didn’t think so. I have NEVER had a customer get nailed IF they use it as prescribed (a rifle target). Still legal, still has a sterling track record, still available for sale.

Cordially,
Daniel@Tannerite

DammDoggs
August 17, 2010, 09:57 PM
Sorry about raising this one from the dead... but after reading through that thread, I think I'm more confused now than before I read it....


Is it legal or what?

TexasRifleman
August 17, 2010, 10:13 PM
Well the thread has lots of links to the manufacturers site. I don't think anything has changed regarding the legal status of the stuff since this thread started.

The consensus seems to be that it's perfectly legal until it's mixed and then it's a regulated explosive so you should use it right then and not transport it. That's what most people seem to think anyway. The only way to know for sure is be the test case, and no one wants to do that.

belercous
August 17, 2010, 11:19 PM
STAR binary exploding targets are a bit cheaper. I've used both and been happy with the results. Putting a dry 5 lb. bag of all-purpose flour on top of a STAR target (I don't know about Tannerite) creates a fireball the size of a van.
Also, if one were to drill a 1-1/2" horiz. hole into an old tree stump, blocking the hole with a plastic bottle cap, drill a few 1" vertical holes intersecting the horiz. hole, fill the holes with the mixed substance and place about 200 lbs. of unsplit wood on top of the holes, please be at least 60 yds. back before firing. And then you may still have to duck. The stump must be dry or the moisture will dampen the substance.
This post is for educational purposes only. Do not try this at home.
Oh, and The Sportsman's Guide has the .22 exploding targets. No great shakes.
Also, just because federal law does not consider unmixed binary exploding targets as an explosive does not mean your state doesn't either. Reference your state laws regarding their legality.

taliv
August 17, 2010, 11:40 PM
well, i'm not looking to be a test case, but i've gone through a couple cases of it. it's fun stuff, for sure.

and in addition to not transporting, you can't store it mixed either.

zignal_zero
August 18, 2010, 06:55 AM
tannerite is REALLY fun, when you take the last 16 bottles you have, mix it all together into a GALLON jug. 1 gal of that stuff makes one helluva pop :D

there's supposedly a ez mix recipe available for sale online somewhere, which greatly reduces the cost.

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