The transfer of high capacity magazines. HELP


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dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 06:18 PM
MD residents can buy high capacity magazines in VA or PA and bring them back to MD Legally.


Is this true?

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dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 06:31 PM
So what im trying to ask is, can I as a Nevada Resident make a sale to a MD resident but instead of me shipping the mags to MD (where the buyer is) I would ship the magazines to DE for the buyer to pick up.

Is this legal?

NC Dave
May 23, 2008, 06:31 PM
Maryland High Capacity Magazines

A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 20 rounds of ammunition for a firearm.

Md. Criminal Law Code 4305(b).

This section does not apply to a .22 caliber rifle with a tubular magazine.
Section 4305(a).

Is possession covered under this? It is not clear to me.

NC Dave
May 23, 2008, 06:34 PM
So what im trying to ask is, can I as a Nevada Resident make a sale to a MD resident but instead of me shipping the mags to MD (where the buyer is) I would ship them to DE for the buyer to pick up.

I think that will get you and he into trouble since the MD resident clearly cannot purchase said magazines from you while he is in MD. (See law above.)

What I am not clear on is if the resident can physically be out of the state of Maryland, purchase the magazines, and brings them back into the state of MD.

MaterDei
May 23, 2008, 06:43 PM
Off topic.

Thank goodness I don't live in a state where I wonder about the legalities of buying magazines.

/off topic

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 06:49 PM
Here is the actual reply I got from the buyer.

You will be doing none of those things in the state of Maryland.
It is legal to posess, use, insert in rifle, fire, etc. a 30 round magazine in MD.
You just can't ship them there.

For example, 44Mag.com will ship AR mag "kits" to MD. A MD resident can take that kit into PA, VA, WV, or DE and assemble it.
They can then take them back to MD. Legally.

MD residents can buy magazines in VA or PA and bring them back to MD. Legally.

The sale takes place in NV and the magazines are recieved in DE. Legally, neither of those states have similar restrictions.
You can check in the MD/DE home town forum.

Thanks.


So what do I do guys?

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 06:55 PM
Here is the MD/DE link he was talking about. http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=29

ieszu
May 23, 2008, 07:06 PM
This is an interesting question that came up in a discussion of NYS law with the State Attorney General.

If someone has a pre-ban magazine, strips it of all parts, build a mag kit with each mag kit containing at least one part, the new mag kits are considered pre-ban, as they are merely "rebuilds" (legally).

Seems easy for an endless supply of mags, as each "rebuild" is pre-ban under the law, and can create new "rebuilds" from each of the parts within it, as all the parts take on the pre-ban status.

When I mentioned this to Andrew Cuomo (the NYS AG), his comment was "Since they legally take on the status of pre-ban, then they are considered pre-ban under the law for all purposes...

I wonder if this would work for MD law as well?

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 07:21 PM
I just asked the question in the MD/DE forum.. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=29&t=310466&page=1

mekender
May 23, 2008, 08:20 PM
the better question to ask is... what are you going to do if your local sheriff shows up at your door with an arrest warrant issued by MD?

sure it might be legal, but are you willing to post bond in MD, hitchhike back to NV, then come back to MD every 3 to 4 weeks until you can convince a judge that it was legal?

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 08:31 PM
I wish the buyer would have mentioned before the transaction that he was a MD resident and that I would be shipping the magazines to a different state. I didn't know anything about this until I received the M/O payment days later.

Now im more then likely going to get a negative feed back from the buyer because im sending his M/O back and canceling this transaction. I like simple cut and dried transactions, I dont like to pussy foot around the law. The buyer had not once mentioned one thing about shipping the magazines to a state of which he doesnt reside in.

mekender
May 23, 2008, 08:50 PM
was this on gunbroker or ar-15.com?

either way, i would send an email to someone that can be involved in the sale process and let them know what is happening and that you are concerned about negative feedback because of your unwillingness to participate in something that would be on shaky legal ground at best and possibly illegal at worst...

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 08:56 PM
AR15.com and the buyer doesnt have a state next to his sceen name either. So should I get in touch with a moderator or somthing?

mekender
May 23, 2008, 09:00 PM
:D:D:D:D:D

i love how you stole my question in the arfcom post :D:D:D

thats good stuff :neener:

mekender
May 23, 2008, 09:01 PM
yeah i would get in touch with one of the mods for that sales section... they should be fairly helpful

Gator
May 23, 2008, 09:01 PM
I wish the buyer would have mentioned before the transaction that he was a MD resident and that I would be shipping the magazines to a different state. I didn't know anything about this until I received the M/O payment days later.

Why? Neither you, nor he, are doing anything illegal. If he does something illegal with the mags afterwards, that is his responsibility. There are enough stupid laws to trouble us, we don't need to go around inventing more, or going beyond what the laws actually say.

geekWithA.45
May 23, 2008, 09:10 PM
I'm not a lawyer, etc.

What my understanding is is that the jurisdiction in which the person receives the item is significant.

* Federal law, which -may- have jurisdiction no longer regulates large capacity mags.

* Most states choose not to regulate large capacity mags.

* MD apparently chose not to prohibit importation of large capacity mags.

Therefore, Actor A can go to FreeStateB, where it it not unlawful to purchase ItemC, and bring it back to MD with him.

This is a lawful act, because

“A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 20 rounds of ammunition for a firearm.”


does not apply to acts that take place in FreeStateB.


This is exactly the same "loophole" that allows an NJ resident > 18 years of age to go to any state, purchase a BB gun, take possession of it there and bring it back with him, without a FID or paperwork of any sort

What he can't do is take possession of the verbotten item in NJ, which would be the case if he mail ordered it.

mekender
May 23, 2008, 09:12 PM
i dont know, someone buys something from me, then tells me that they are having me ship the item to a state other than their residence, i would start to suspect that i was getting scammed...

if they then informed me that it was because of the law of the state they lived in, i would start to feel that i had been put into a questionable legal situation...

that would be enough for me to not feel comfortable with completing the transaction

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 09:12 PM
Gator,

If it's questionable, shouldnt I play it safe?

I'm actually not sure if he's correct about driving hi-cap mags back over the Maryland/Delaware border. But, I'm not a Maryland lawyer.

Breaking the law is not something that I want to toy with, even if it's questionable.

If he had come back saying that he lived in Delaware, or that it was a friend, or some other arguable item, that would be one thing. But he didn't---he came back and essentially said "yes, I am going to transfer these into Maryland and use them there." I would never advise anyone to take that risk---back to the worst case scenario, now I know for a fact this is in a gray area.

It's very unfortunate this position im in; I will probably get some negative feedback from this guy, especially if he's active on gun boards. It sounds like he is the type to get indignant that not everyone shares his interpretation of the law.

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 09:15 PM
Mekender, your last post is exactly how I feel. Thank you

NC Dave
May 23, 2008, 09:15 PM
I think that were "Actor A" will run afoul is that he mostly likely did not draw and mail the money order from a state other than MD. He therefore made the purchase "in" MD - not allowed by MD law.

My am not an attorney, but I would not ship mags to this guy for him to pick-up in DE unless the order came postmarked from DE.

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 09:19 PM
NC Dave, yes that is my concern. The MO has a MD address on it!! Oh man this law stuff gives me a headach..

mekender
May 23, 2008, 09:21 PM
thats another good point that i hadn't thought of... and again, this is all speculation on a grey area of MD law, of which none of us are super informed about...

and another thing that has to be considered what if a judge decides that he has violated the intent of the law if not the wording?

sure it might be thrown out of court, but that might take 6 months worth of legal battles...

look at what NYC has done to gun shops here in NC over sales that were 100% legal in NC...

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 09:26 PM
Here is some input I received from a fellow member on another forum im on.

I'm not a lawyer licensed in Maryland, but:

The relevant law says "A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 20 rounds of ammunition for a firearm."

Worst case scenario, a DA decides to say that you conspired with the purchaser to ship the hi-cap mags into the state, or were an accessory to the shipment, both of which are crimes. The fact that you have a question is pretty much a good indicator that something bad might be happening.

If you just didn't notice, or thought the guy was buying a gift, that'd be one thing. But you posted on a website that you thought someone may be trying to evade the law, so your suspicions are more than superficial. The chances of a prosecution happening, realistically, are slim to none. But, if one did occur, Exhibit A is going to be your post, and the DA will use it to show that you were consciously aware of criminal activity (or the substantial likelihood of criminal activity).

My two cents, don't do it unless the guy tells you in writing (preferably, notarized!) that he is a resident of Delaware.

Kharn
May 23, 2008, 09:28 PM
Maryland does not allow >20rd magazines to change ownership within the state, but its residents are allowed to travel outside the state to acquire new magazines and bring them back. Sending MOs to out-of-state sellers and listing a PA/DE/VA/WV ship-to address is the norm (or one could order a box of checks listing an out-of-state PObox). If you really want to cover yourself, ask him to remail the MO to you from an outside-MD post office.

Non-MD residency is not required, since MD law cant govern what MD residents do when they're out of the state.

Kharn

Sunray
May 23, 2008, 09:28 PM
Receive means to take into one's possession.
From here. http://www.lcav.org/states/maryland.asp#LargeCapacityAmmunitionMagazines
Magazine Capacity: The manufacture, sale, purchase, acquisition or transfer of detachable magazines with the capacity in excess of 20 rounds of ammunition is prohibited. Maryland does not prohibit the possession of large capacity magazines, however.

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 10:04 PM
This whole thing seems so titter totter I dont know what to do.

The buyer came across the thread on AR15.com and wrote me this.

"I just read your enquiry in the Hometown Forums and frankly, I'm a little disappointed.
Can I make it any clearer that it doesn't matter one bit where I reside?

I own two AK's and over one hundred magazines for same. All of the 30's and 40's and drums have been shipped to my house in Delaware.
This is necessary to comply with MD law. As I clearly stated in my bill of sale, you can not ship them to MD.
If I physically come to Nevada, you can sell them to me there and I can bring them back to Maryland or Delaware.
You are not breaking any laws and I have specifically instructed you not to do so by emphasizing that you can't ship the goods to MD.

They are legal to possess in MD.
They are legal to transport within MD.
They are legal to place in a rifle and shoot in MD.

I am an honest and forthright person. You have asked me (below) to swear to a falsehood.
At no time have I concealed my identity or residence from you.
You have read the law verbatim and seen the replies of several other MD residents.
This is SOP for Marylanders and fully within the law.

You are selling the magazines in NV; where you receive the money is the place of purchase.
I am receiving them in DE, where there are no restrictions on magazines at all.
All of this is legal, in full compliance with all applicable laws and is routine and commonplace.

If you truly want a "cut and dried" transaction, then close the deal and ship the magazines to my Delaware address,
an action that is legal for both of us. Far more legal than Breach of Contract.

I don't want a hassle. What I'd like is some cool Bulgarian AK magazines to add to my collection.
You have the funds in a timely fashion. I have held up my end of the deal.
I have expended time and money to do business with you in a legal fashion.

What I would like is to have the order satisfied.

Sincerely,"

So what do I do here guys? I was suppost to ship the magazines today. Time is playing a factor here, I just need to know what to do. :confused::confused::confused:

Thanks

Sans Authoritas
May 23, 2008, 10:25 PM
Do your magazines really have "Purchased in Virginia in 2007" stamped on them?

-Sans Authoritas

dasanii19
May 23, 2008, 10:47 PM
Bump to get a tally vote. :eek: "To ship, or not to ship"

Gator
May 23, 2008, 11:00 PM
Ship! I liked the buyer's letter, he laid it all out calmly and rationally, he sounds like a good guy to deal with.

DrewH
May 24, 2008, 01:57 PM
I don't like the implicit threat he makes of "breach of contract". If the buyer was forthright about all these arrangements when he made the commitment to buy the mags, then fine, sell them. If he sprung all this on you with the money order he sent, than I would refuse.

I sold >10 round magazines to a CA resident who had a NV address, but he explained that up front.

As for the legality, I am not a lawyer, but it is probably legal-but I also think their is a small chance that some some could argue that this was all a subterfuge to transfer some >20 round mags to MD.

Kharn
May 24, 2008, 02:19 PM
Ship, the deal as described is standard operating procedure for Maryland residents wishing to expand their collection and is in no way a violation of MD law.

Kharn

ants
May 24, 2008, 05:06 PM
dasanii, my friend. We act as though 'negative feedback' is a big freakin deal. Ha! The moderators will take care of you. We think of negative feedback as though it were a sex offender registry. Get over it. The mods will take care of you.

You are under NO obligation to comply with purchase instructions issued AFTER the deal is struck. He's wrong. Send his money back.

This cancelled sale is NOT breach of contract in our home state of Nevada.
The fact that he's threatening an honest man with breach of contract tells me that he's not Mr. Nice Guy. If he already owns hundreds of magazines, he can go buy more elsewhere. He can go to Bulgaria to get them for all you care.

Here in Nevada, we're free to do as we please. No one from MD can tell you what to do if you're not comfortable with it.

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