Which would be more accurate: 1911 vs. CZ


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Orion8472
May 24, 2008, 09:20 AM
This accuracy question is for both large frame guns and small frame guns, and for 9mm cartridge.

Question 1

A similarly priced 1911 (any brand ranging from $800-$1,000) vs. CZ 75 SP-01

Question 2

A small 1911 (Kimber Aegis or SA EMP) vs. CZ Rami?

*Yes I know I could buy 2 Ramis for the price of one Kimber or SA.*

Thanks!

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Treo
May 24, 2008, 09:26 AM
I'd go W/ the CZ

TX1911fan
May 24, 2008, 09:53 AM
I think it's too hard to answer the question. Accuracy has as much to do with how the gun fits your hand, the rounds you are using, the caliber of the gun and so forth as it has to do with the equipment itself. I am more accurate with my 1911s than my CZ because they fit my hand better, but that's not to say that the CZ is not an accurate pistol. I couldn't shoot my Walther P99 to save my life, but others report incredible accuracy. It's just too subjective. Both are capable of great accuracy, so I wouldn't worry about either.

Frank Ettin
May 24, 2008, 10:18 AM
There's really no answer. It depends on the particular gun (and, if you're talking about practical accuracy, as compared with pure mechanical accuracy) how you shoot it.

A particular example of Brand X 1911 may be more or less accurate than another. And a particular example of a CZ 75 may be more or less accurate than another. So one 1911 may be more accurate than a CZ, just as another CZ may be more accurate than that 1911.

Both the 1911 design and the CZ design should be capable of equivalent accuracy. How accurate a particular example is will depend on how well it's fitted and how well how manage it (the trigger, the sights, etc.).

LotI
May 24, 2008, 10:27 AM
I have both, but the 1911's are .45Auto.

It may come down to the trigger. The 1911 is the "standard" and are very tunable. The safety model CZ's can be worked on but they cam the hammer over with the trigger, increasing the distance the trigger moves.

If you're looking at the P01, it has a decocker and the triggers are tougher to work on and not as nice. I have a SP-01 Tactical(decocker); great, accurate gun but the trigger hampers accuracy. I have a two 1911's and they are easier to work the trigger, but no more accurate...mechanically.

19-3Ben
May 24, 2008, 11:23 AM
What's faster, the comparably priced Porsche or Ferrari? Day to day and driver to driver the answer will change.

Sorry not to be more help, but it'll be a wash with accuracy.

Orion8472
May 24, 2008, 12:46 PM
I should state that the full size to compare is the custom one that you have to order from CZusa.

The ammo used would be good quality stuff. I've known Golden Sabers to be pretty accurate.

Also, for this discussion, both guns fit my hand well.

Let me know if I need to give more information for this question.

I have been asking, in the recent past, about the Rami and the EMP, but would also consider a full sized 1911 or the CZ 75 SP-01, that you have to order from their webpage, for mid $800s.

nwilliams
May 24, 2008, 02:00 PM
IMHO.....Depends on the shooter.

I'm more accurate with a 1911 because I like the trigger better. There is no yes or no answer to questions like this because what may be more accurate for you may not hold true for others. Everyone is different and everyone has different skill levels, if you are looking for a gun that is the most accurate for you then only you can answer that question.

I happen to be more accurate with my 65 year old 1911a1 with its tiny little sights than I am with my friends brand new CZ-75B with night sights and less recoil, it just the opposite for him.

My suggestion would be to try and shoot both and see which one feels more comfortable to you. If you go by what others say then you are destined to be disappointed in the end. Everyone may say CZ and you go with that and think its pretty accurate. Then by chance a little later you try out the 1911 and find out you are far more accurate with that, or vice versa. The fact is if you go by what others say is more accurate then you take yourself out of the loop and in the end you are the biggest factor in the accuracy of any gun.

BamBam-31
May 24, 2008, 02:58 PM
I have a CZ SP-01 in 9mm, and it would take a semi-custom 9mm 1911 to outshoot that puppy. IOW, you'd need a fitted Kart/Bar-sto barrel, and that would prolly go over your stated budget.

That's talking the pistol's inherent accuracy, tested off a rest. If we're talking which pistol would be more accurate for you, then ergos come into play. Gotta shoot each and see which platform performs better for you.

bluetopper
May 24, 2008, 10:11 PM
If the decision is troubling you just get a CZ made 1911.
They make the arguably the best production, non custom 1911's available.

They bought out Dan Wesson Arms.

Which is more accurate? The 1911 platform dominates all types of pistol competitions in this country.

MCgunner
May 24, 2008, 10:50 PM
Accuracy is why I like revolvers.

I have one 1911, an AMT Hardballer, that would shoot about 2-2.5" at 25, most accurate I've fired including a Gold Cup. My Ruger P90 will put 5 rounds into a little over an inch, pretty amazing. Don't know about CZs, just that 4" or less groups at 25 for a carry auto is plenty accurate IMHO. I prefer better, of course, but for self defense, that's plenty good IMHO. Most service sized guns will do that.

CWL
May 24, 2008, 11:07 PM
What kind of shooting, fast, slow, timed? What distances? Targets? Ammo?

Too many variables.

railroader
May 25, 2008, 10:57 AM
I have a kimber custom 45 and 2 cz75b's. One of the cz's is single action only. Accuracy wise all three guns are very close but the out of box trigger is better on the kimber. Also the cz stock sights are just ok for me but they work. As for ordering the cz from the website, that gun should really run good. My cz single action has fiber optic sights and I did some trigger work on it. That gun shoots fast if I do my part. I would go for that cz over a stock 9mm 1911. Mark

jdc1244
May 25, 2008, 12:23 PM
Refreshing to see the 1911 platform compared to something other than a Glock. But the same problem exists: you canít compare a general platform to a specific brand.

As already noted accuracy has more to do with the shooter than the gun.

Question 1

A similarly priced 1911 (any brand ranging from $800-$1,000) vs. CZ 75 SP-01.

I can say that I am as accurate with my Colt S 70 reissue as I am with my SP-01, but thatís essentially meaningless. When I am inaccurate it has nothing to do with either gun, if that helps.

Are you asking because you have an upcoming gun purchase or just curious about how the platforms and sizes compare?

FEG
May 25, 2008, 03:21 PM
Let make another comparison:

I would bet what little reputation or credibility that I have left that any CZ 97B (.45 Auto) within spec will outshoot a 1911 of the same price point (@$500).

The CZ 97B is just that accurate out of the box. The design is superior in the sense that it was designed around modern manufacturing processes. In other words, the CZ 97B was designed to use MIM and investment casting. A 1911 of a similar price has been reverse-engineered to accomodate these methods.

That said, the 1911 trigger has many, many times the potential of even a SA CZ with a proper triggerjob. (OTOH, you can't ruin your CZ triggerjob by accident, either.)

I wouldn't be too surprised if a tuned 9mm CZ could outperform a tuned 1911 in 9mm, but I would expect a tuned 1911 in .45 ACP to beat it every time.

Some of the advantages of the CZ do not translate to organized competition. A CZ 75 pattern pistol is incredibly easy to control in rapid fire, but most competitons don't have a "mag dump" category.

CWL
May 25, 2008, 03:36 PM
I'd be willing to bet that if you put any modern handgun on a Ransom rest and fired them into a target at 10 yards and 25 yards using the same ammo from a single box, the groupings would be so similar that no one could tell the difference.

This quest for 'accuracy" is typically by people who don't understand that most of the work relies on the 'operator'.

FEG
May 25, 2008, 04:07 PM
I'd be willing to bet that if you put any modern handgun on a Ransom rest and fired them into a target at 10 yards and 25 yards using the same ammo from a single box, the groupings would be so similar that no one could tell the difference.

My parents' neighbor actually has a Ransom rest. (Obviously, he doesn't have every insert known to man). Long story made short: you could even distinguish which 1911 was which in our limited testing. This wasn't a large sample size, and we were comparing 2 Springfield Mil Specs to a DW PM-7, an early Gold Cup, and a Caspian build. The group sizes were closer than you would think with UMC 230 gr ball, but each gun had "tendencies" that were easy to recognize. Also, there was a direct correlation between price (or value in the case of the Colt) and performance, with noticable diminishing returns. For example, the Gold Cup didn't shoot twice as small of groups as the Dan Wesson, etc.

Again, a sample size of 5 doesn't tell you much. (The comparison is also unfair because it compared heavily customized pistols to bone stock ones.) I tend to agree with your basic idea, but I would also expect certain makes/models to outperform others as a group.

The Ransom Rest, however, does tend to demonstrate that most "features" are purely subjective aids to shooting. That is, they might help you to be more comfortable, see the sights better, etc., but they certainly don't affect inherent accuracy, at all.

Orion8472
May 25, 2008, 06:44 PM
CWL,

What kind of shooting, fast, slow, timed? Most of the time, slow, but would like something that would shoot with the least amount of recoil for times I would do some faster shooting. Nothing timed or in competition, but I'd still like something that will be able to compete.

What distances? Typical distances: 7 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards

Targets? Mostly paper (spatter targets). I hope to be able to go to a shoot where they're using metal though.

Ammo? Practice ammo. Winchester white box. Maybe some higher quality ammo occasionally.

mljdeckard
May 25, 2008, 07:05 PM
CWL is absolutely right. With modern handguns, including enrty-level 1911s, accuracy is not an issue unless you get one that was manufactured badly. Especially since now, it's so easy to drop in a match barrel, link, and bushing, there's no excuse for manufactures to not ship accurate guns.

I think with the guns named, where ONLY talking about accuracy, you could put them in a Ransom rest, shoot a variety of ammo through each, and not be able to tell the difference between each target, at anywhere from 10-50 yards.

Orion8472
May 25, 2008, 07:57 PM
So it would come down to triggers, I guess. Perhaps the type of sites.

I was just on the Para Ordinance site and thought the 9mm hi capacity 1911 looked pretty good. I wonder how the trigger would be on that gun as compared to a Custom SP-01 (feel, lb pull)?

It may be that the SP-01 Custom shop gun would be more to my liking, if I thought the Rami felt good in my hand, that is. It may be the way to go.

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