[.cheese.]

I was at the Southern Class Gun & Knife show (or as it said on the Expo Center sign - Gun and Knief Show - I don't know what a knief is, but I want one).

Anyways, on the door, there was a sign stating in essence that private sales of firearms is now prohibited in Dade County. The only way a private sale can be conducted is if the buyer has a concealed weapons permit, otherwise the sale must go through an FFL and have the required waiting period.

When did this happen? It totally flew under my radar.

[kentucky_Dave]

Isn't it interesting how this crap slips into place with relatively no notice?

Makes me crazy

Were you in West Palm or down south?

[.cheese.]

down south at the Miami Fairgrounds.

I live in Broward. Maybe it never made it into the paper? I just was surprised I hadn't heard about it, and yet it had just taken effect.

[jimmyraythomason]

What they don't know........:rolleyes:

[CZ-100]

I have been looking, but can not find it yet, I thought that Florida State Law prohibited local government agencies from enacting more restricted laws than the state.

[Picard]

You guys living in Florida should check if this law is even legal. Politicians tend to slip in anti-gun legislation like this so that the pro-gunners can't lobby against it.

[CZ-100]

I found it:

http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/ch0790.htm

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.--

(1) PREEMPTION.--Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void. This subsection shall not affect zoning ordinances which encompass firearms businesses along with other businesses. Zoning ordinances which are designed for the purpose of restricting or prohibiting the sale, purchase, transfer, or manufacture of firearms or ammunition as a method of regulating firearms or ammunition are in conflict with this subsection and are prohibited.

[divemedic]

That law is null and void:

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.--

(1) PREEMPTION.--Except as expressly provided by general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances are hereby declared null and void. This subsection shall not affect zoning ordinances which encompass firearms businesses along with other businesses. Zoning ordinances which are designed for the purpose of restricting or prohibiting the sale, purchase, transfer, or manufacture of firearms or ammunition as a method of regulating firearms or ammunition are in conflict with this subsection and are prohibited.

Entire law here (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC33.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2033#0790.33).

ETA Oops- you posted while I was...

[.cheese.]

There isn't a way to challenge a law without having a test case come up that violates it is there?

I think a letter to the paper is in order.

[El Tejon]

cheese, have you contacted the Office of General Counsel at the NRA?

[GHF]

Contact Marion Hammer using USFinfo@aol.com.

Ms. Hammer is the person that got concealed carry, castle doctrine, carry in cars put in place.

There is a state premption, and she may want to thinking about dropping the hammer on this kind of behavior next year.

[camacho]

This is from the dade-county ordinances, it does not appear to be new (had a date of 1998) but maybe they decided to enforce it now. Who knows?!

(d) Sale and delivery of firearms; mandatory criminal records check. No person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access within Miami-Dade County until all procedures specified under section 790.065, Florida Statutes, have been complied with by a person authorized by that section to conduct a criminal history check of background information as specified in that section, and the approval number set forth by that section has been obtained and documented. Upon the repeal of section 790.065, Florida Statutes, no person, whether licensed or unlicensed, shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or deliver any firearm to another person when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access until all procedures specified under any other state or federal law which requires a national criminal history information or national criminal history check on potential buyer or transferee of firearms have been complied with by any person authorized by law to conduct the required national criminal history or background records check and any required approval under such state or federal law or rule has been obtained. "Person" for purposes of this subsection shall include any person, including, but not limited to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer and any unlicensed person.
In the case of a seller who is not a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, compliance with section 790.065 or its state or federal successor shall be achieved by the seller requesting that a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer complete all the requirements of section 790.065 or its state or federal successor. Licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers may charge a reasonable fee of an unlicensed seller to cover costs associated with completing the requirements of section 790.065.
(e) Exemptions. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by state law and holders of an active certification from the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission as a law enforcement officer, a correctional officer, or a correctional probation officer as set forth in state law shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.
Sales to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.

[MGD 45]

According to that statute, this only applies when trying to sell in a public building, etc.....it looks like private party sales are still legit if you do it in your own home, or the buyers home, because those aren't open to the public.

[KyJim]

There isn't a way to challenge a law without having a test case come up that violates it is there?


This is usually done by way of a civil action asking for an injunction. You'll need a lawyer. That's where state and/or national organizations can help. Before this, you may want to write the Mayor or head of the county government to find out if they enforce the law. If they recognize the law is unenforceable and put that in writing, there's no problem. If they say they will enforce it or won't write back, then proceed.

[Trueno]

"According to that statute, this only applies when trying to sell in a public building, etc....."


The statute isn't specific to a "public building". Under common law, "public" includes parking lots of stores etc etc etc...any place that the general public is allowed legal access to.

Yes, there are finer points such as "public place" which is normally defined by capacity...such as any structure that can accomodate 10 or more members of the general public. This definition is usually used in city ordinances.


I don't see the Dade County law flyin' whatsoever, it's about as legal as the current try by Philly to trump PA law in the case of Mayor Nutter banning this and that.

t

[csmkersh]

Then Florida is NOT a preemptive state? Every county the Noo Yawkers have invaded are having Noo Yawk ways foisted upon them?

[Sicari]

The place is run by the Cuban Exile government.
And that's not a "diss"- it's the truth.

Anyway, the measure allowing counties to ban "private gun show sales" was I believe, the result of the passage of a state-wide referendum.

[divemedic]

CSM- Yes, Florida IS a preempted state. Again, there is no law prohibiting FTF sales, or even allowing a local government to do so. I challenge anyone to find a state statue allowing local governments to do so.

The state DOES allow a county to adopt a waiting period ordnance, but that waiting period only applies to sales by dealers. Read the chapter here:
(http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC33.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2033#0790.33)

[divemedic]

Upon further research, there is a portion of the Florida Constitution that allows localities to prohibit FTF transfers at gun shows. This restriction does not apply to CCW holders:

Art 8, section 5(b)

b) Each county shall have the authority to require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring within such county. For purposes of this subsection, the term "sale" means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration for any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by general law shall not be subject to the provisions of this subsection when purchasing a firearm.

Since the only place the public has a RIGHT to access is a Government owned property, this does not apply to businesses or homes. In those cases, you have a license of access, not a right.

ETA: Any lawyers out there want to give me an opinion on this: Since this law requires a criminal background check, but the NICS does not allow privatre individuals access to the system, does this have the effect of outlawing FTF sales, or would this make the law unconstitutional?

[Vader]

2) LIMITED EXCEPTION; COUNTY WAITING-PERIOD ORDINANCES.--

(a) Any county may have the option to adopt a waiting-period ordinance requiring a waiting period of up to, but not to exceed, 3 working days between the purchase and delivery of a handgun. For purposes of this subsection, "purchase" means payment of deposit, payment in full, or notification of intent to purchase. Adoption of a waiting-period ordinance, by any county, shall require a majority vote of the county commission on votes on waiting-period ordinances. This exception is limited solely to individual counties and is limited to the provisions and restrictions contained in this subsection.

(b) Ordinances authorized by this subsection shall apply to all sales of handguns to individuals by a retail establishment except those sales to individuals exempted in this subsection. For purposes of this subsection, "retail establishment" means a gun shop, sporting goods store, pawn shop, hardware store, department store, discount store, bait or tackle shop, or any other store or shop that offers handguns for walk-in retail sale but does not include gun collectors shows or exhibits, or gun shows.

Law says maximum 3 working days, yet here in Miami-Dade County the wait is 5 working days, isnt this a violation of the statutes?

[.cheese.]

interesting. I didn't know state law specified the waiting period.

It is 5 days in Miami-Dade.

[lacoochee]

I believe and someone will need to look in their Florida Gun Laws book by Gutmacher (my Father-in-law has mine) that counties? local municipalities? can regulate two things gun wise in Florida.

The first being that they can prohibit the sale of guns at gun shows (and only gun shows) by private individuals.

The second thing they can do is impose a longer waiting period to purchase a firearm , unless the purchaser has a concealed weapons permit (exempting them from any waiting period anywhere in Florida).

[divemedic]

That is what I was saying- Page 12 tells of the Constitutional amendment that allows local government the ability to ban private sales on property (and require a 3-5 day waiting period) where the public has a right to access, but exempts a purchaser that has a CWL.

He notes that a "right to access" only occurs on government owned property. Commercial property grants one a temporary license to enter, granted by the owner. Many localities are erroneously attempting to apply this law to commercial property such as FTF sales in parking lots. He seems to feel that such a law could be successfully challenged. Perhaps we could push to have gun shows moved to commercial property instead of convention centers?

That also means that Florida has no "gun show loophole"

As to the local option waiting period, that is found on page 38. A 3 three day wait is allowed for localities, with an exception for CWL, handgun trades, people who can prove they own another firearm, cops, and Any individual who has been threatened or whose family has been threatened with death or bodily injury, provided the individual may lawfully possess a firearm and provided such threat has been duly reported to local law enforcement.

Note that possession of a CWL exempts you from both.

[obiwan1]

guys....... that is AT THE SHOW. No one cares what you do at your house.

[blackcash88]

guys....... that is AT THE SHOW. No one cares what you do at your house.

Alrighty then. Have fun either having a complete stranger come to your house or you going to a complete stranger's house to do a simple transaction involving FIREARMS and, potentially, a substantial amount of MONEY. Now someone knows where the other lives. Last I heard, Miami isn't the safest of places by a LONG shot. Good luck with your "home transactions". :rolleyes:

[camacho]

That also means that Florida has no "gun show loophole"


I am not sure about the entire state of Florida. Dade certainly has no "gun show loophole". Since it is left to the Counties, I bet there are counties where individual sales at gun shows are not outlawed. I live in Broward, and I have seen many folks selling privately at the gun show here, and I have never seen the signs that .cheese talked about. Maybe Broward does not have such ordinance (which will be shocking since the local government is rather anti-gun).

[camacho]

A 3 three day wait is allowed for localities

It is up to five (5) now per that constituional amendment.

[divemedic]

the three day wait applies to gun stores, the 3-5 day wait for sales that occur upon land that the public has a right to entry.

[camacho]

the three day wait applies to gun stores, the 3-5 day wait for sales that occur upon land that the public has a right to entry.

That's correct; I should have clarified that.

[RustyShackelford]

I'd check with the state AG's office or maybe the FL Div of Licensing, www.myflorida.com . They may know more. To my knoledge in Florida, handguns may be bought and sold by owners w/o a FFL holder or shop involved. In PA, it's a misdeamnor, :rolleyes:.

Rusty

[divemedic]

Correct, unless it is done on property that the public has a right to access AND the county in which the sale takes place has an ordinance prohibiting same. See Art 8, section 5(b) of the state constitution.