Remington 870p with plastic trigger assembly's

[dasanii19]

Just wanted to pass on some info:

From what ive read, the newer 870 police magnums are now coming equipped with a plastic trigger assembly instead of a metal one now. This supposedly came out of Remingtons mouth.

[Virginian]

Why is this an issue? What kind of "plastic" is it? With all the black plastic pistols about, that everyone seems to be knocking each other down to get to at the gun shows, I am surprised if this is newsworthy. When they first went to aluminum about 50 years ago I seem to recall some 'gloom and doom' back then, but with no internet it wasn't that big a deal.

[dasanii19]

Why is this an issue? What kind of "plastic" is it? With all the black plastic pistols about, that everyone seems to be knocking each other down to get to at the gun shows, I am surprised if this is newsworthy. When they first went to aluminum about 50 years ago I seem to recall some 'gloom and doom' back then, but with no internet it wasn't that big a deal.

Just passing on the news sir. Though I do prefer a metal trigger assembly as i do a milled AK.

[MAX100]

It is "News Worthy". Remington is charging top dollar for the 870P. If it is no big deal why did they put metal trigger guards on them in the first place. When customers pay that kind of money for a basic pump shotgun they want to know they are getting the best and no corners were cut.


GC

[Howaido]

The plastic guard was put on to lower costs over the "old" method of using aluminum when Rem introed the express. If you want the aluminum, you pay for the 870P.

Perhaps now, however many years later, the results have shown that there is not a difference in quality or durability between the two. Perhaps the only real difference is the cost.

[jmr40]

On a nice gun that I want to show off I would prefer steel but I suspect that on a gun intended for rough use the plastic may well be more durable.

[dasanii19]

Why is this an issue? What kind of "plastic" is it? With all the black plastic pistols about, that everyone seems to be knocking each other down to get to at the gun shows, I am surprised if this is newsworthy. When they first went to aluminum about 50 years ago I seem to recall some 'gloom and doom' back then, but with no internet it wasn't that big a deal.

+1 with max100. You also gotta remember that the metal trigger assembly feature was a very argumentative point against the Mossberg 590. Also, the question that should be asked now is, whats the difference between the 870 police and the 870 express? If they changed the metal trigger assembly, what else have they changed? So yes I do think this this newsworthy.

[ArmedBear]

Perhaps now, however many years later, the results have shown that there is not a difference in quality or durability between the two. Perhaps the only real difference is the cost.

Some "plastics" may be more durable than some metals, especially under extreme temperatures, in some applications. Note that similar parts made of composites (generally plastic plus fibers of one or more sorts) are showing up in shotguns that cost a good deal more than an 870P. This gun costs many times as much: http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_competition_guns_main.htm

I'm guessing Beretta didn't use composites to save a few cents on a gun that goes for a few grand, especially when the gun is a unique new design that needs to earn its place in a discerning market where cost is secondary. They probably didn't even do it to save weight, on a 9 lb. trap gun. More than likely, the composites in the trigger assembly are superior to metal for one reason or another.

You also gotta remember that the metal trigger assembly feature was a very argumentative point against the Mossberg 590.

By whom? Remington's marketing team? They're full of ****. Read a catalog of theirs and it's pretty clear.:)

That doesn't mean the engineers are wrong. OTOH Remington sure isn't above producing mediocre or even poor products and charging too much for them.

One way to really find out is to drop each trigger assembly from successive floors of a tall building and see which one breaks first.

[dasanii19]

By whom?

By whom? By the owners and the coutless 870p vs. 590 polls everywhere.

[ArmedBear]

the coutless 870p vs. 590 polls everywhere

How many people have ever had a broken plastic assembly?

Has anyone asked Remington why they changed? (Sure, they might lie, but it would be interesting to ask.)

Wingmasters presumably still have the aluminum assembly. Remington makes both still.

[dasanii19]

How many people have ever had a broken plastic assembly?

Has anyone asked Remington why they changed? (Sure, they might lie, but it would be interesting to ask.)

Wingmasters presumably still have the aluminum assembly. Remington makes both still.

I think its pretty rare for anyone to actually drop any of their firearms just to see if they break. So no, I dont have numbers on how many assembly's have broke.

You and I know this topic can be argued till no end. The only way to truly find out which assembly is dominate is to do a torture test with both assembly's. Not it... :)

[MAX100]

Remington Chose to use plastic trigger guards for profit gain not to offer it's customers a better product. It's sad but true. What will be next IMI extractor, rough blue finish instead of parkerized. There are other parts you could change to IMI or plastic on the 870P and they would probably last but who wants more plastic or cheaper parts on a $549 basic pump shotgun that is suppose to be top of the line.



GC

[dasanii19]

Remington Chose to use plastic trigger guards for profit gain not to offer it's customers a better product. It's sad but true. What will be next IMI extractor, rough blue finish instead of parkerized. There are other parts you could change to IMI or plastic on the 870P and they would probably last but who wants more plastic or cheaper parts on a $549 basic pump shotgun that is suppose to be top of the line.



GC

I agree.

[dfariswheel]

A metal trigger groups sounds really nice until you learn that the Remington metal trigger group is made of compressed powdered aluminum.

The plastic group actually has some advantages.
It won't rust or corrode.
It's self lubricating.
There's no finish to wear off and expose bright metal.
A blow that will break or permanently bend a metal guard will only cause the plastic guard to flex and return to shape.

Some time ago we had a post on one of the forums for people to report broken plastic shotgun parts.
Other than a number of broken Mossberg safeties and one or two broken plastic magazine followers in hard used Police guns, there wasn't anything.
No one has ever reported a broken Remington 870 plastic group except me, and it was a case of a catastrophic accident that would have destroyed a steel guard.

It's the Plastic Age and in some cases, plastic is as good or better then aluminum.
In any event, it helps hold the price of the guns down to reasonable levels.

[ArmedBear]

A metal trigger groups sounds really nice until you learn that the Remington metal trigger group is made of compressed powdered aluminum.

LOL

I'd take modern polymer technology over that old crap any day.

Plastic is not all created equal. There's the cheap stuff used to make 50 cent toys, but there's also the stuff used to make bulletproof "glass" and composites used to build jet fighters.

I'll take jet fighter technology over powdered metal, if that's the choice.:)

[JNewell]

I agree that the plastic TG may actually be a better, more durable part. The question is: if this has changed, what other changes in the PM has Remington made? There used to be a long list of differences between the Express and the PM 870s. How many of these are still part of the PM? It'd be interesting to find out.

[ArmedBear]

The 870 and the 1100 are mostly made of stamped sheet metal pieces inside. Objectively, inside a Remington is a bunch of cheap crap.

And yet, I have both, and they're both really reliable guns, proven over many decades of use in every possible environment. They're arguably the best damn collection of cheap parts ever assembled.

But there's not much in there that could be built any cheaper. Over the years, the cheapest version, the Express, has sold a lot of copies, and no pattern of problems has emerged, right?

They rust when you sweat on the Expresses and don't clean them, and their chambers tend to be unforgiving if your shells aren't sized to spec. That's it. No other consistent problems reported, to my knowledge. And parkerizing solves the rust problem, of course.

Anyone hear differently?

[Ethics]

Well I just found a stash of brand new 870Ps at cost. Maybe I'll snap up a few.

[rugerfreak]

My 7 shot Expess is just fine---spray the finish with Remoil and rub it in good---no rust issues---ever.

Did replace the plastic follower with a solid aluminium plug.

I'd put it against anything.

[Lee Lapin]

AB,

That's probably about as close to genuine ground truth as anyone can get. Stamped sheet metal and music wire springs, can't get much cheaper to manufacture than that.

Still they run and run.

I've been shooting 870s for most of my life to one degree or another, from borrowing my dad's Wingmaster until now. I have yet to buy a new 870, every one I have owned has been used (including the 28 ga. Express I found not long ago).

I've never had a broken part on an 870. Never replaced anything that was worn out. Not bad for a cheap collection of stamped sheet metal and music wire springs IMHO.

lpl/nc

[MAX100]

I got hand it to the Remington 870 fans on THR you are loyal. You could even call it blind loyalty.



GC

[GRB]

I prefer metal, in fact I prefer steel - just a preference. One thing about polymer and plastic parts in firearms is that you need to be very carefl about what you use to clean them. Some plastics, and I think polymers, are badly effected by things like gun scrubber.

All the best,
Glenn B

[.45&TKD]

Well I just found a stash of brand new 870Ps at cost. Maybe I'll snap up a few.

Where?

[Virginian]

I don't see where the Remmy fans are any more blind loyal than the Mossy fans, or the Beretta fans, or the Benelli fans. I do believe emotions play at least as big a role as any data (statistics always lie).
One of two guns that I have owned that I sold and really, REALLY wished I hadn't was an 870. I have 5 1100s now. One of them has a bit of finish scraped off on the trigger guard, and I am going to have to buy some of that Brownell's coating, and strip the trigger group, and paint the bare trigger plate, and then bake it. I was just thinking "I wish they made this out of plastic" (meaning a high quality black composite of some ilk), when I come on here and see this. It's kind of funny really. One man's jewel is another man's garbage.
I never realized Glock's only motivation was cutting costs. I thought they just wanted to strir up the anti-gunners about the sneaky plastic guns getting through the airport scanners.

[dasanii19]

Where?

:evil:Hehehehehe.

[md7]

It is really not an issue for me. I could really care less what a shotgun is made of so long as it works reliably and is durable.My Express has been 100% with a plastic trigger guard. I am sure it won't hinder the performance or reduce the durability of the 870P.

[mljdeckard]

I have a 870 synthetic that I bought specifically to have a cheap gun to abuse, and abuse it I have, I have HAMMERED that gun, (with the plastic parts) for lots of road trips, thousands of rounds of S&B birdshot, cursory occasional cleaning, still functions like new.

I'm not going to do a Mythbusters style torture test with a metal one to see which one would break first.

[Dave McCracken]

"You could even call it blind loyalty"....

Not blind, CG. Loyalty due to 50 years of near perfect service.

870s just plain work and keep on working.

In 20 years of Correctional Service, the only shotguns that handled the abuse, lack of PM and neglect from poorly trained and motivated marginal personnel were 870s. During my tenure the Winchester 1200 and the S&W 870 clones were tried and found wanting. Only the 870 kept going.

I had an agency 870 sent to me once that was so rusted it took a hard stroke with the butt against a concrete floor while holding down the slide release and pumping hard to open. 10 minutes and some oil and it was back in service.

And re the plastic TG, I'm pretty high profile when it comes to 870s. If the part wore out quickly or broke I'm sure I'd hear of it.

Haven't. Not at all.

And, I have nothing to gain by pimping 870s. I don't sell them and the only freebie I ever got from Big Green was a ball cap.

You, OTOH, make aftermarket parts for ChiCom clones and sell them and the shotguns by your own admission..

I'm sure the readers here can tell who's objectivity is more credible....

[Virginian]

I almost hate to ask, but, does anyone know if they are putting plastic trigger plates on 1100s yet? I just copped a new aluminum one on eBay, but maybe....

[Milkmaster]

All of my 1100's have plastic trigger guards on them too. Not one has failed or discolored. Same goes for my Winny 1300's. The term "plastic" is a crude broad brush that does not do justice to some polymers that are tough as nails and serve us well in any number of functions.

I don't think I have ever heard of a trigger guard failing because it was "plastic" The idea of dropping each kind off a building is not a justifiable argument. Neither were meant for that purpose. Lay each kind side by side on a bench and hit them with a hammer. I bet both will cease to function! However, both do a respectable job for what they were designed to do. At least both have for me without fail.

[ArmedBear]

The idea of dropping each kind off a building is not a justifiable argument.

It's not an "argument" at all.:)

The point is, a working shotgun will get dropped. So dropping it is a reasonable, if extreme, test of its durability. In the field, a police shotgun might hit concrete, trigger guard down. But the trigger assembly won't be hit with a hammer.

I've got a Remington with the powdered Aluminum assembly and one with the plastic one.

My bet is that the plastic one would survive the drop, and the metal one would break. The plastic is just elastic enough to absorb some shock, and a tad lighter. The metal is really stiff, and heavier. It would not absorb anything; it would hit hard and bounce. Enough velocity and it will probably crack.

I'm not going to go test this, because I don't have any spares.:)

[MAX100]

Dave, I make parts for the 870 also and the Mossberg 930 SPX, 590A1, 835, Moss 500 Milsgun, Moss 500 Breacher, H&R Excell Auto 5, Norinco 982 and Pardner Pump, so what.

Remington is part of the importation of the "ChiCom clones", your words not mine, The NEF Pardner Pump.


Blind Loyalty is when you make excuses for a company after they down grade their top of the line tactical shotgun that was over price to begin with. One of the reasons why many are attracted to the 870P is because of it's more durable features. It is what it is.



GC

[Dave McCracken]

"More durable features"?....

Cripes, I haven't been able to wear out or break an 870 yet and I've been trying since the 50s. And those are just WMs, not supertactical variants.

Total parts breakages, two firing pin springs on a high mileage 870TB.

Thanks for the clarification on the clones and other shotguns.

And, the company that owns Remington now owns NEF.

I'm not making excuses, I'm saying that 870s are great shotguns and the imitators are not quite at that level.

[MAX100]

The 870 a great shotgun. You probably know that better than me with your years of experience with them. It is a little overpriced though.

Remington has made a bad decisions with the plastic trigger guard on the 870P. In a couple of years the 870P shotguns with metal trigger guards will be highly sought after and the price on them will go.

The ChiCom 870 copies are very well made. I wouldn't waste my time on them if they were not. I believe the changes Norinco made to the 870 design are improvements as a tactical shotgun, not as a hunting shotgun.



GC

[Lee Lapin]

You could even call it blind loyalty.

MAX100,

I'd call it 'eyes wide open' loyalty myself. Any mechanical contrivance that keeps on doing what it's supposed to do for decades with utter reliability OUGHT to inspire some loyalty, IMHO.

And it isn't just 870s. FWIW I feel the same way about Marlin 336s, or Ruger 10-22s, or S&W J-frames. I have most of a lifetime of good experiences with those makes/models. They just work, year after year, doing what they were designed to do. I for one appreciate that fact. And please note that along the way I too have followed the siren's song of the gunscribbler, and gone off following the lure of the newer, the hotter, and the more improved.

I was younger once, too. And more foolish than I am now. Given those experiences, I'll take tried and true. Even if the tried and true are old fashioned according to the scribblings of the modern gunscribe. That breed, it seems, never changes. They always have something newer and better to sell you. And somehow there always seems to be a nice advert from the company making this month's 'newer and better' somewhere in the gunscribbler's spread, too.

Tell me what you have bought with your own hard-earned money and have been carrying and shooting regularly for 25, 30, 35 years or more, the way I have some of the above firearms. Blind loyalty? I think not.

lpl/nc

[MAX100]

I have been a gun owner since I was 10 years old and I am now 46. I have to many guns in my collection to name, well over 100. I have been a dealer for the last 10 years and work on guns for the last 15 years. I make some parts for a few guns I named above. I am not the most experienced with the 870 but I am far from a newbie. I probably have owned, seen, handled and fire more guns than most will in a lifetime


GC

[dasanii19]

Lee, you have owned only Wingmaster 870's right? Doesnt the Wingmaster come equiped with only metal trigger assembly's?

[Regolith]

I have an 870 Express with the plastic trigger group. I have yet to have any problems with it. Whatever type of plastic they made it out of, they chose a very durable one, and I doubt it's any less durable than the powdered aluminum ones. Hell, I thought it was metal the first time I handled it. It does not feel or look like cheap plastic at all.

[Dave McCracken]

Dasanii, Lee has mentioned that a number of Expresses are now based at Casa Lapin.

Lee, I feel the same way about GMs,94s, K and J frames, 10-22s and 03A3s. All of these have been around in part because they just keep on working. Most are easy to shoot fairly well also.

GC, I'm pushing 62 and the longer I do this, the more I tend to use old standbys rather than "New and Improved" or the latest Big Thing.

[Slater]

Hell, the Chicom 870 and Ithaca 37 clones have forged steel receivers and trigger guards made from solid steel. But I don't think that makes the shotgun any better. Maybe a bit heavier, though.

[ArmedBear]

Blind Loyalty is when you make excuses for a company...

I can't speak for anyone else, but if you look around this forum, I've been accused of "bashing" Remington a fair amount. I've even been accused of doing it because somehow I'm jealous of someone who has a Model 700. (This was weird, of course, but I included it to illustrate how much of a blind defender of Remington I'm not.:) )

Remington is a company that far too often puts a lot of its effort into cutting costs, cutting corners, milking its past reputation, and charging too much.

I think it's damn near unforgivable that the company that brought us the Model 32 and 3200 couldn't hack together an aceptable O/U, even though it had low-end finish and it cost more than a nicer Beretta. I've shot a 105CTi and I really liked it, but you can search here for pictures of how poorly they put the things together -- at $1400 retail, to boot.

I like the feel of a Model 7, but I find $800 to be a ridiculous price for a matte blue finish push-feed rifle in low-grade walnut, and it's telling that, when they had a problem with their bolt-locking safety, they didn't go to a 3-position like Savage and Howa, they just removed it. A safety that doesn't lock the bolt down is useless to me here in chaparral country. Ditto for all their hunting bolties.

Incidentally, if a piece of wood is anything above firewood grade, Remington calls it "semi-fancy" and charges extra for it. The "budget" version of the Beretta 686 O/U comes with wood at least as nice as what Remington charges extra for, or at least mine did. Some Marlin lever guns do, as well, and they sell for a good deal less than the cheapest Wingmaster these days.

I was really disappointed in Remington when, rather than cleaning up their own act, they started stamping their name on Baikals. To their credit, they seem to have improved the Baikals WRT barrel regulation, etc. Sad they can't improve their own production.

I have a friend (skilled amateur gunsmith and restorer of old firearms) who, when he needs a hammer, asks, "Hey, would you pass me the Remington Loading Tool." I laugh as much as anyone.

I was bummed to hear that Remington bought Marlin. Marlin still knows how to machine a rifle. I expect that any influence that Remington has on Marlin will result in Marlin's quality going down and prices going up.

Blind loyalty? Hell no!

I just own Remington shotguns with plastic and a metal trigger groups, and I think the plastic one is most likely superior. Modern polymer composites are better than compressed powdered aluminum. Like I said, I'll take modern fighter plane technology over 1950s cut-rate production methods any time.

And I don't hear anyone bitching about Benellis with similar parts and much higher price tags -- because they work. Frankly, Argentinian dove hunting likely subjects shotguns to a lot more stress than any 870P will ever see, too.

"Metal" doesn't necessarily mean precision-machined steel, and "plastic" doesn't necessarily mean break-prone junk. The Remington trigger group is a prime example of both.

[Lee Lapin]

Lee, you have owned only Wingmaster 870's right?

Oh no. Far from it. I have original 870 Riot guns from the 60's that were marked Wingmaster. I have commercial Wingmasters, Expresses and one newer Police gun (1989, IIRC) marked Police Magnum. Most of what are here and currently in use are Express guns though, simply because they keep turning up on the used racks at near giveaway prices. But ALL the 870s here were bought used.

I prefer older model (pre-dimple) Express guns as the best bargains available in used 870s. The latest 12 gauge Express acquisition is a 1987 gun that was in near new condition when I brought it home. It still had factory preservative inside it when I cleaned it. Outfitted with a takeoff 18 1/8" Police gun CYL bore barrel and with its stock trimmed to 12.5" with a new LimbSaver pad installed, it's propped at my left knee as I type. It will pattern the Federal LE127 00 buckshot its magazine holds into less than 4" at 25 yards.

Most recent Express acquisition overall is a 25" VR fixed MOD-choked 28 gauge... and there are two Youth model 20 gauge Expresses here too. Everything else is 12 gauge. I can't even tell you how many of them there are, I lost count. I remember building two out of the parts box on stripped receivers though... .

lpl/nc

[Slater]

I was looking at getting an 870P, but a friend told me "don't bother, the Express will do everything the Police will". Could be, but isn't the Police supposed to be built to generally higher standards?

[md7]

hello slater,

i will tell you what i know about the difference in the express and police models.

the express features the following:

bead blasted blue finish
laminate or synthetic stock
polymer trigger guard
standard magazine springs
standard trigger springs
it is usually a little "rougher" on the slides, chamber, and inside the barrel. (shooting it will slick it up nicely)
the extractor is mim instead of milled steel like the police model has.
magazine dimples that do not allow addition of magazine extension unless removed or you buy the HD express model.

the police model features the following:

parkerized finish
walnut or synthetic stock
aluminum trigger group which may or may not be the case any more
heavier magazine springs
heavier trigger springs
stronger shell latches
they are built on their own area of the plant
they are less "rough" on the insides, and usually are more "slick" like a wingmaster.
they are supposedly hand inspected for quality before they leave the plant.
milled steel extractor.

there may be more differences than that between the two, those are just the ones i know about.

i own the express HD model. i use it heavily on the range, rabbit hunting, and when we are deer hunting with dogs. it has been 100% reliable, has slicked up consiberably, and the finish has had no problem with rust or anything. just wipe it down with CLP and its ready for the next outing.

i appreciate the express for what it is. a no frills, reliable hunting shotgun that doesn't bother me to take it out and use it extensively in the rain, mud, heat, or whether i sweat all over it. it works when i want it to, and that is what counts for me.

[dasanii19]

Thanks LEE. I wish I could come across some of those older riot wingmaster 870's.

[Dave McCracken]

Have faith and keep on looking, Dasanii. Friend Superreverb came across a 1968 Police in unfired condition last year and picked it up, IIRC, ofr less than $250.

And the wood on that was better than most.

Lee, I may print that out and show it to WW. She'll be amazed somebody's got a worse case than I do when it comes to 870s.

[dasanii19]

I found this recently but its a FTF only. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=93&t=548377 seems like a good deal. I wonder what year it was manufactured, any clue?

[Lee Lapin]

She'll be amazed somebody's got a worse case than I do when it comes to 870s.

If it'll contribute domestic harmony at Casa McC, feel free!

It's just a habit, it seems. I haven't figured out yet if it's a good habit or a bad one... always seemed to me like another good 870 in the safe was a better thing than $150 or $175 in the bank. Inflation doesn't seem to affect 870s but it sure shrinks $$$.

lpl/nc

[JNewell]

Well, I will be the exception that proves the rule. I did, briefly, own a Wingmaster that had been shot to the point of not locking up correctly. It was an "agency" trade-in, the agency in question being charged with operation of the local international airport, in which role they used to (may still?) fire a lot of shells at seagulls that do not make go intake for jet engines. It was probably a relatively simple gun to restore, but I sold it back to the dealer from whom I bought it.