[cslinger]

I am a reasonbly good shooter all around. I am very comfortable with picking up and shooting just about any rifle or handgun and can pretty much be combat accurate with most of them.

My question is that I want to become a better precision shooter with iron sights and would like some advice on bench rest shooting. I would like to see what kind of groups I can eventually get at 100 yards with iron sights with an AR-15.

As it stands I can keep all my shots in a paper plate at that range off hand and can tighten up a bit benched but I am no MOA precision shooter. I would like to know some tricks to tightening up my groups at 100 yards.

I do not reload so that is not an option at this time.

I want to use iron sights.

I prefer bone stock rifles without match triggers and gear and what not. My skill doesn't justify the cost of these additions.

What is a good rest to use. What kind of breathing techniques or trigger pull techniques do you suggest. Any good reading material on this? What is a good inexpensive spotting scope to use at ranges of say 100-200 yards.

Thanks for any input.

Remember I am not Jo Sniper and am by no means at a point where telling me to load my ammo to X specifications is going to make a bit of difference. We'll call me a beginner who is Minute of As.......ahhh I mean Minute of Badguy accurate. :D

Chris

[bogie]

My question is that I want to become a better precision shooter with iron sights and would like some advice on bench rest shooting. I would like to see what kind of groups I can eventually get at 100 yards with iron sights with an AR-15.

First, make sure that the rifle is capable of the degree of accuracy you expect - put a scope on it, and check it out. Otherwise, you may spend forever trying to get 1MOA groups out of a 2MOA rifle...

I do not reload so that is not an option at this time.

Ought to - you'll get to shoot more.

I want to use iron sights.

I prefer bone stock rifles without match triggers and gear and what not. My skill doesn't justify the cost of these additions.

Your skill may greatly improve, given a decent trigger. Trust me - If you've got an AR, put a Jewell trigger in it - best $$ you'll ever spend on accuracy. That's the prime point of the shooter/weapon interface.

What is a good rest to use. What kind of breathing techniques or trigger pull techniques do you suggest. Any good reading material on this? What is a good inexpensive spotting scope to use at ranges of say 100-200 yards.

Practice position shooting - heck, take up high power competition. If you MUST use a rest, use something like a rolled up blanket from a prone position. This sorta shooting isn't _meant_ for a benchrest-type of rest.

Also, keep an eye on what the wind is doing - that'll tighten your groups horizontally.

[Biff]

Believe it or not, most AR's can come close to MOA accuracy given the right ammo and a solid rest. Most of us shooters are not up to the accuracy potantial of the rifle. The best place to learn to shoot the AR to its full potential, I believe, is Service Rifle competition. I shoot a stock Bushmaster, and right now my 10 shot group for rapid-fire Sitting Position is about 6" for 200 yards...and I am not a great shot.
For a High Power program near you, check out this web link:

http://www.orsa.nxs.net/orsa/programs_hp.cfm

The people there will be more than happy to help you out!

[DMK]

The other guys here will give you great tips on form and technique.

I can tell you however, what is helping me the most while trying to be a better rifleman shooting from a standing unsupported position.

1) Listened to the advice given here, used the search engine, studied old posts, printed some out for further study.

2) I went through a couple .22 rifles until I found one I really, really enjoy shooting, is reliable and is very accurate. I'm now using BRNO Model 1 (early model CZ-452), previously was using a $50 Romanian 1969 trainer.

3) I take it out and shoot it at 25 yards (you might want to use 50 or 100 yards) at least once *every* week. Sometimes I go out after work, sometimes on the weekends, but even if I can only get out for a half hour, do it once a week.

4) I shoot for precision on paper targets when practicing the .22, I don't just plink. Some plinking to break the routine a bit is OK and benificial, but get the homework done first before you have your fun time.

[Steve Smith]

Limiting yourself in equipment and investment or both time and money will only hinder your progress to your goal. You can save bucks, but if you skimp on the important things, or discredit yourself, you will never get GOOD. People who shoot Highpower generally believe that rifles don't get interesting until you get pat 200 yards, and more specifically 600 yards. At 200 and more, you DO need good equipment (like a spotting scope) to help you determine wind changes and your hits. Learning is hard without this and a few other tools.

You probaby already know what I'm going to tell you, but at least I'm not the first one to say it this time, lol. Shoot Highpower. I was pleasantly surprised that Bogie recommended that. (Thanks Bogie!) There are some near-requirements for being competitive, but it will be worth it. The answers to your post lie in Highpower.

Oak Ridge is an excellent range.

[cslinger]

So before I do a formal search what is involved in shooting high power? Equipment etc.

What kind of ranges and courses of fire are we talking. Can I do this with a relatively stock rifle and grow into it if I wish.

Thanks
Chris

[Steve Smith]

I've written a lot about it here and at TFL, a search for "Highpower" will turn up a lot. Breifly, it is a competitive rifle sport, embraced by both the NRA and CMP, wherein an individual fires an iron sighted rifle at ranges of 200, 300, and 600 yards from field positions. (200 Standing, 200 Rapid Fire Sitting, 300 Rapid Fire Prone, and 600 Slow Fire Prone.) There are two main divisions, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. Both fire the same course, but Service Rifle has more equipment and procedural rules. You may only fire an NRA Service Rifle type rifle in a CMP Excellence in Competition match (a similar course but for a seperate set of awards).

[kotengu]

Agreed - for really practicing the basics of rifle shooting (position, sight alignment, and trigger control), nothing can beat shooting Highpower. Ideally, find a clinic that's being put on near you, and don't be afraid to tell them you're a newbie (even if you're not at a clinic) - you'll be bowled over with people trying to help you.

Don't worry about "minimal" equipment. I shot a stock FAL with surplus ammo for about a year before I started tweaking my gear, and although I caught some good-natured ribbing from the mousegunners, they understood I was only out there to improve my skill (not really trying to win the game), and helped me in every way they could.

I don't recall exactly where you are, but if Oak Ridge is an option for you you might not be too far from me (in Cookeville). I shoot at a pretty informal reduced (100yds) Highpower match at Bend of the River just about every month, and it's a great way to learn the basics and course of fire without having to worry about all of the stuff that comes with going to a "real" match (target pulling, heavy competitors, mulitple shooting lines, big wind, etc.).

Don't hesitate to contact me if you want to shoot -

Matt

[AK103K]

I agree with Steve and Bogie, high power is a great place to learn. Lots of things to learn form more experienced shooters. You dont need a lot of equipment or a fancy rifle. Personally, I think a lot of the equipment used in the matches isnt necessary to making you a better shooter. It may help an experienced shooter attain a higher score, but it wont make you a better shooter overall if you dont have the basics down and have a good idea of how to shoot. A good spotting scope is a big help and a shooting mat adds to your comfort. The shooting coat to me is a crutch and not necessary, you dont shoot anywhere else with one, so to me its like shooting off a bench. Practice in the clothes you normally wear and learn to shoot in a tee shirt or a winter coat, you will be better off and a better shooter for it. Shoot all year round in all weather too. As far as a rifle goes, get a "decent" rifle with a good sling and your set. You dont need a match gun to shoot or compete. A stock gun with a stock trigger will shoot if its "decent" gun and you use known, consistant ammo. I'd stick to the major makers and avoid the "kit" or "lesser maker" guns. Not that some wont shoot, but you really do usually get what you pay for. As was mentioned, reloading will let you shoot more and is well worth the time and effort. Consistant ammo/loads to me is more important than gear. If you constantly switch ammo, your in for a lot of aggravation. Find a "lot" of ammo that shoots well in your gun, or a load of your own that does, and stick with it. Buy as much of that "lot" as you can if you dont load your own. The more you shoot, the better you get. Practice is everything. When you can call where your rounds are going, your well on your way. Dry firing also goes a long way at helping you keep your skills and muscles in tone.

[Steve Smith]

AK103K, I must argue your "shooting coat crutch" statement. (Sorry to semi-hijack this, CSlinger).

The coat is mainly used for comfort of the competitor, not to provide support. Any good Highpower competitor will tell you that it is your position, not your coat, that provides the support. Depending on the coat for support is a foolish thing to do, and the scores will show it. Beginners often fall for this theory. When they start to figure out that the coat doesn't do the work, their scores go up dramatically. Most of us dry fire without a coat and our holds are just as good.

[Biff]

Equipment-

For starting out, one AR with a 20" barrel,and fixed handle (removable handles are not allowed in service rifle class, and do not allow enough elevation adjustment for 600 yards), 80 rounds of ammunition, and a desire to improve yourself. If you have the removeable handle, no biggie...you just have a "Match Rifle". The class difference only matters when you are shooting CMP sanctioned matches, trying to get LEG points.

Try to find a reduced distance course to start. (See Kotengu's post)

A stone stock AR should be good enough to take you up to Expert, or very close to it. As your proficiency improves you will want to start with the accuracy modifications: DCM Float tube - $150 Match Trigger - $100-200
1/2 or 1/4 minute sights - $80-120. The thing is, you do not have to do all this at once. After about 10,000 rounds you may decide its time for a match grade barrel. You do not have to be in a hurry.

Other equipment:

Shooting Mat- I use a 4'x6' piece of carpet. It saves your knees and elbows.

Spotting Scope: Usually a beginner is paired with an expert or master class shooter who will share his with you. If you decide to continue the game, save up for one, or leave catalogs open to the right pages aroung the house before Christmas.

Coat: Start with a sweatshirt under a field jacket. Canvas USMC shooting coats run about $50 from Maes Co. They have pads in the right places, but no back support for standing position. Leather and Cordura coats with back support and multiple buckles and zippers are over $300. I figure that I'll stick with my canvas coat until my scores hit master level...then I'll start dressing like a master!

Glove: To protect your hand from the sling, you can spend 30-50 dollars on a shooting glove or just scrounge around the closet for an old ski glove.

[Steve Smith]

BTW, I agree that one can start with a stock gun and build as your desire to improve builds, however, that, in the end, is the more expensive way to go.

I also concurr with the idea of shooting reduced course matches to begin with. They will hone your position without you having to worry about wind.

[ACP230]

If, after reading about high power, you still want to learn about benchrest shooting you might take a look at www.rimfirecentral.com. There is an e-mail rimfire .22 benchrest match run from there and lots of good info about rifles, ammo and benhrest accessories.

I used to shoot high power and enjoyed it a lot. Unfortunately, I am not in shape to deal with the positions now. The e-mail .22 matches have kept me competing and are cheaper and easier to do. I am a much better shot off the bench now than I was two years ago when I started.

[goalie]

Read this book:

"Sight Alignment, Trigger Control, and The Big Lie" by M/SGT James R. Owens, USMC

It is a great read that can only help.

[AK103K]

Steve,
I'll take your word for it about being for comfort, although I never found any of them comfortable, cloth or leather. I've shot with both and I'm not convinced they are not a crutch. I personally think to much emphasis
is put on gear rather than actually learning to shoot without it. Then again, its the same in any sport I guess, and if it works for you and you have the money to spend, hey, knock yourself out. I still think the true test of a rifleman is to draw a club gun(of equal ability) from the rack, get three sighters, then shoot the match in the street clothes you wore there. Nobody ever seems to want to take me up on it though. I wonder why? :)

[bogie]

Oh, and I don't know what other areas call it, but my club runs "High Power Silhouette" matches... Never have shot at one (hey, I don't crawl around on the ground, thankyouverymuch...), but they look kinda fun - same sorta silhouettes as the pistola folks shoot at, only bigger, and you get your butt whupped if you bring AP ammo along.

[Biff]

Hey Bogie-

Silhouette is shot from STANDING position...200-500 meters range. So you can giuve it a try, and not have to crawl around in the mud! :D

[Steve Smith]

AK103K, I would, as my favorite match is a CMP EIC match, which does not have sighters. I seem to do fine.

BTW, my comments were not meant to slight you. My comments were based upon my personal findings, coupled with the findings of other Highpower shooters.

[Jack19]

Strange to say...but the thing that helped my bench shooting was to take a Tac Carbine class with the AR.

Weird I know, but my concentration improved.

[kotengu]

FWIW - here's a pic of a guy that shoots with us all the time, has been shooting here longer than I have, and whips my butt every time we shoot - even though he shoots "as-is" and I'm in the corsett and oven-mitt (shooting jacket and mitt) crowd, with a tricked-out spacegun and handloads.

AFAIK, his AR is pretty darn stock, and he shoots plain jane store bought ammo. His "shooting coat" is a field jacket, and IIRC his "glove" is a plain old leather work glove. He won the expert class last match.

It really is the shooter.........


http://webpages.charter.net/cpardue/hp030703.jpeg

[Jon Coppenbarger]

lol

[EchoSixMike]

I've shot stock barreled AR's into the 480's, and stock barreled M14's into the 470's. You don't need a .5 minute rifle for this sport. Your money will be best spent on a good trigger(Jewell or Kreiger-Milazzo) and good sights(John Holliger's White Oak Precision rear is the best, and a good sharp front post of whatever size fits your eyes) and most importantly, practice ammo. There is no shortcut to getting good, you must practice. Dry firing is good, 22LR is good, but when it comes down to it, you need to be out there shooting the full yardage. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

[Steve Smith]

Ken, you and I always seem to agree (wonder why that is?) ;) I've seen so many people focus on the equipment side of the game. Some of the equipment is very beneficial, but the key ingredient is lots of perfect practice. If you equip an indiot with everything money can buy, all you have is a well-equipped idiot. BTW, Ken, I made MA.

[echo3mike]

Biggest breakthrough I had was, after trigger control and not leaning into the rifle, was learning how to call my shots consistantly... no flinch, no eye blinking, knew precisely where the sights were when the shot broke.


Everything else just fell into place afterwords.


FWIW,
S.

[El Tejon]

1. Dry practice;
2. Go to skul.

Good shooting is not magic, however it is hard work.

[EchoSixMike]

BTW, Ken, I made MA.

Congrats, time to come play with the big dogs. Next you have to get that Hmmmm card. As in "Hmmm, what the heck do I do now?" S/F...Ken M

[280PLUS]

that guitars and guns are quite similar in a lot of respects

one similarity i find is a great guitarist can take a crappy guitar and make it sound great

while a not so great guitarist can take the best guitar there is and make it sound crappy

know what i'm sayin'?

:D

heh, and then there's ted nugent

there's a guy who can make a crappy guitar sound great and a great gun shoot crappy...

:p