[texcalibur]

I know that the Kahr PM9 is a superior handgun from the quality standpoint, but with Kel-Tec P11s getting more and more reliable, wouldn't you want the Kel-Tec for the increased mag capacity (between 10 to 15 rounds if you trust some of the SW mags - but at least 10 rather than 6 in the Kahr flush mag) if you needed one of these for a pocket or deep concealment handgun?

[Felonious Monk]

Yep.
No contest. Twice as much money for not as much gun,
or a P11...hmmmm......hard choice...NOT!

[coldshot03/04]

Tex, Thats only what the KT bashers say or someone who has never owned a KT. Im a Kahr basher I hate Kahr handguns. I have owned one and hated it. Traded it in on a Springfield 1911. Im a little happier. But not that much happier.:(

My vote is for the KT P11.
PS
Where are the other small poly guns? Taurus, S&W,etc?

[WonderNine]

The PM9 is small enough to be a true pocket gun while the P11 is not. You can always carry spare mags for the Kahr. Personally I think I'm going the MK9 'elite 98' route.

[gbelleh]

My PM9 is

smaller
more accurate
more reliable
has a better trigger

than my P-11.

I wouldn't trust my P-11 for CCW because of a failure it had that completely locked up the slide (it took a gunsmith 10 minutes to get the slide open).

I'm not saying all P-11s are bad, or all PM9s are great, but between the two I own, I would trust the PM9 for defense, I wouldn't trust my P-11.

The P-11 does hold 3 to 4 more rounds, and is almost as small. If I had a P-11 that worked perfectly, it would be a harder choice.

[mlk18]

I voted Kel-Tec P11, very small gun easily capable of pocket carry and equal to Kahr in quality but much lower in price. And just like coldshot, I have had bad experiences with Kahr. Get the P11.

mlk18

[WonderNine]

That would be the first time I've heard a Kel-Tec being described as "equal quality as a Kahr".

[Dorrin79]

I own a KT P11.

I fully recognize that it is a well-made, clever little gun. I have about 500 rounds through mine, and it has jammed twice (probably user error), both times in the same magazine-load.

However, it is very unpleasant to shoot, and impossible (for me, anyway) to shoot accurately.

I would definitely shoot the KT before buying one. I bought mine largely because of its strong following here, and while I don't doubt that its proponents are happy with theirs it is not the right gun for me.

As always, YMMV

:cool:

[denfoote]

As I have stated here before, I have had occasion to shoot the Kel-Tec product. The trigger was so bad that I was unable to keep shot on POA!! Neither could the owner!! I then had him shoot my MK9 Elite. Justin Moon has a new convert!! :D

[mod12]

have never owned nor fired a kahr.however i really luv my p11!

[9x19]

P-11

Kel-Tec does it right, IMO. I've owned mine for several years and they have proven to be exceptional psitols in their size and price ranges.

Mine have never bobbled and are accurate enough for their intended uses.

My P-11 trigger pulls are very similar to the Bersa and Makarovs in Double action.

[mlk18]

Wondernine: "That would be the first time I've heard a Kel-Tec being described as "equal quality as a Kahr".

You're right, my bad. Actually my P11's have been far superior to any Kahr I have fired or handled. The P11's have all been completely reliable and very accurate. They are not quite as accurate as my G26 was but much easier to carry/conceal. Yes you do have to have moderately strong hands to deal with the trigger pull, get one of those squeezy balls it will do wonders.

mlk18

[coldshot03/04]

And we're tied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D Go!!!!!!!!! Kel-Tec!!!!!!!!!!:evil:

[GoldenLoki]

Kel-Tecs low price attracts a lot of "first time", or "low budget" gun owners. I believe this less gun savy crowd contributes greatly to the high number of reported problems. (proper grip, clean, lube, break-in, etc.)

In the hands of a competant gun handler who is marginally skilled at tuning a pistol, a Kel-Tec is a solid performer. Of course any and all companies let a few clunkers out the door.

GL

[hnm201]

I own both a PM9 and a P-11. I have good and bad things to say about both, but the P-11 has won out and I sold the PM9 to buy a second P-11 and ammo for practice.

- Concealment - obvious Kahr wins this but I think the P-11 does exceptionally well there too. I do not prefer pocket carry except with a limited number of the pants in my wardrobe. My preferred method of carry is www.smartcarry.com. I have large hands and the PM9 was actually getting a little lost in the waistband. The P-11 is the perfect size for the smartcarry. And it works when I need to carry in a pocket. Normal carry for me now is a P-11 in the waistband with the belt clip or in the smartcarry and a p32 in the pocket. No extra magazines, just a NY reload.

- Shootability - the Kahr trigger is a world apart from the P-11, but I didn't start to shoot the Kahr really well until after I had mastered the P-11. The KelTec trigger is a major turn off for some people. I went from hating it to loving it. Learn to shoot your P-11 well and any other gun that you pick up will shoot 10 times better in your hands than it did before. Seriously. Shooting the P-11 is a workout and it strengthens your hand, your finger and your fine motor control. It's exercise man!

- Reliability - Had issues with all three of my kahr guns. The PM9 and the P40 both had to go back to the factory. The P-11 had to go to the factory and came back with a bungled night sight installation. If everyone could make a 9mm as small as these two guns and pull it off without a hitch every time then everyone would make them. The PM9 was ammo sensitive (feeding problems with long cartridges) and P-11 would feed anything. The P-11 mags rattle if you have 9 rds in them but don't rattle with 10 rs or less than 9 rds. That's annoying.

- Price - well, that's obvious. You can buy two P-11s used or new for less than one used kahr PM9.

- Options - there are a zillon more holster options for the P-11.

[Rick Blaine]

I carry the P-40 version of the P-11, which is about a quarter inch longer. For me it is a pocket gun that I carry in a pocket holster. I have a plus one mag extension so I'm carrying 10+1. I gave it a minimal fluff and buff when I got it, and I've had zero problems. GoldenLoki pretty much said it right. An experienced shooter should really enjoy a P-11, or a P-40 if you can still find one. I highly recommend the finger rest mag extension because a three finger grip might contribute to limp wristing. Also get a Hogue Handall Jr. Grip it and rip it.

[pistolwhipped]

Interesting.
I can't say anything about the P11 as I have never held one. I do own and shoot a P40 and a PM9 . I will say that I'm very happy with the PM9. And I agree with above posters that when you learn to shoot a KelTec , most others seem like cake. I know that after years of shooting a P40 (without problems) , any short barrel weapon is shootable.
Is that a word ?

[yzguy]

love my P-11, but then again I have modified it, and I've never owned a Kahr

[coldshot03/04]

KT is winning by an extra point. (Football season is in the air):D

[mod12]

GO BUCKEYES!

[sensei]

I carry a Kel-Tec P-11 every day. I couldn't be happier with it.

Lighter than my Glock 30, easy to conceal, Goes BANG everytime I pull the trigger. What more could you ask for?

sensei

[concerned citizen]

GoldenLoki said it perfectly.

I like the pm9 for every reason gbelleh said except the reliability part, the two I owned worked.


:cool:

[WonderNine]

The P-11 mags rattle if you have 9 rds in them but don't rattle with 10 rs or less than 9 rds. That's annoying.

Why would you load a ten round mag with 9 rounds???

So there seems to be some sort of concensus that Kahr PM9's don't like to feed anything larger than 115gr.? Are the MK9's the same way?

[hnm201]

Why would you load a ten round mag with 9 rounds???

Who said I loaded a 10 round mag with 9 rounds? I load it with 10 and chamber a round and voila, the mag rattles when you walk. Naturally I could eject the mag and add a round but then I am going to have a loose round to keep track of when I have to unload the firearm for locked storage. Personally I choose to not keep firearms loaded except when they are on my person. I have small children in the house. Don't lecture me on why I should keep the guns loaded in a locked safe.

**Actually, I do keep the P-11 stoked to 10 +1 when carrying it, I just find keeping track of the 11th round annoying, though necessary both to kill the rattle and to bring as much of my army to the fight as possible.

My PM9 had no trouble with 124 gr golden sabers, which is the only > 115 gr ammo that I fed it. I don't know about the MK9s.

[coldshot03/04]

Uh Oh.......:uhoh:

[WonderNine]

Who said I loaded a 10 round mag with 9 rounds? I load it with 10 and chamber a round and voila, the mag rattles when you walk. Naturally I could eject the mag and add a round but then I am going to have a loose round to keep track of when I have to unload the firearm for locked storage. Personally I choose to not keep firearms loaded except when they are on my person. I have small children in the house. Don't lecture me on why I should keep the guns loaded in a locked safe.

Ok then....

:D

[PCRCCW]

Admittedly, I have much more experience with the Kahrs. For all of you guys who have had (cough :scrutiny: ) Bad guns....bummer. Weve got about a dozen in my family and their great. Its not easy for a new company...not even 10 years old yet, to reach the level of excellence, reputation and design the Kahrs have. Regarded in MOST circles as another Sig or HK in quality. Sure their are bad ones...but their are bad SVI's too.

The Keltec is a sleeper...IMO, KT should have charged another 50$ for the gun and done the FluffyBuffy at the factory and put steel sights on it. Just my opinion. Ive shot a couple and one had a nice trigger....it cost him 100$ according to him....1/2 of the cost of the gun? OUCH!

Im jaded....I have a killer history with Kahrs and a good but limited history with KT's....

So Kahrs win..............Shoot well

[makdaddy03]

Kahr to dang expensive for me.

KT got my vote. Netheir one even comes close to the MAKAROV.:neener:

[coldshot03/04]

Heck I wouldnt be ashamed a Mak is a very reliable gun. 2000 rds through mine no problems period.

[mod12]

the mak does not take a 9mm parabellum does it? what cartridge does fire?

[Snowdog]

Kel-Tec makes a better pistol.

LMAO! :D A good laugh, I needed that! Maybe Jay Leno can use that one?

I've fired a firend's P-11 on several occasions and am impressed with it, as I am with my P-32.
Also, my experience with the Kahr P series is extremely limited. However, the Kel-tec doesn't hold a candle in even the calmest weather to any K series Kahr.
All the Kahr owners I know personally have had nothing but flawless performance and mind-numbing accuracy with their K series, particularly the K9.

Regarding the PM9 in question, I know of no one personally that owns a P series, so perhaps it's a different cat than the venerated K series.


the mak does not take a 9mm parabellum does it? what cartridge does fire?

9x18 (though some have aftermarket barrels chambered in .380acp)

[wunderkind]

Snatched up a used P11 for less than 200.00 at a pawn shop a year ago. The gun was in good shape, and performed as it was supposed to. But the long trigger pull, combined with a stiff break, led to a hard-to-shoot pistol. Either the long pull or the hard break would be somewhat OK on their own, but together...

Many, many boxes of WWWB 115 gr. later I still couldn't warm up to it. So it was traded, almost straight up, for a holster-worn S&W snubbie. Good trade.

NYPD hardly authorizes anything for backup/off duty. I believe it is a short list of Glock 26, S&W 3913, and the Kahr P9. That should say something.

The price disparity is only 200-250 in my area. What's a month or two extra on layaway for a superior tool?

[PCRCCW]

Flyer,
Hey have a smile with that coke....:D

You keep the KT's...Ill keep the Kahrs and when/if we ever have to use them...I hope they both work flawlessly.

I KNOW THE KAHR WILL :evil:

Now go be harmonious.......

Shoot well

[jdege]

I've owned a P-11 for a number of years. Put several thousand rounds through it.

I never found it comfortable to shoot.

The recoil is painful, and the trigger hurts my finger, with or without the trigger shoe.

As for the trigger pull - the biggest problem is that it's inconsistent. The pressure required increases, as you pull, and doesn't increase smoothly, but with a noticable "knee".

And one thing that does bother me is the lack of a safety. I don't mean lack of an external safety - I understand the choice of not having an external safety. Revolvers have worked that way for more than 100 years.

The P11 lacks any semblence of an internal safety, as well. The only thing that is keeping the firing pin away from the primer is the spring. It's a design that is prone to drop-fires, and while that doesn't bother me in a target gun, it does bother me in a carry gun.

On the other hand, it's always been absolutely reliable for me.

The PM9, on the other hand, is smaller, nearly the same weight, is a bit easier to carry, and much more comfortable to shoot.

It's more accurate, the trigger is far easier to control, and it has a firing pin block that makes it impossible for it to discharge when dropped.

I'm not going to slam the P11 - it's a remarkable little gun for the money. But to me, the PM9 is worth the extra money.

[Demon440]

can you get all the cool accessories, with the Kahr? Like differnt grip colors, belt clip, trigger shoe, flashlight mount, mag extensions? Also how is the Kahr warranty?

[yzguy]

The P11 lacks any semblence of an internal safety, as well. The only thing that is keeping the firing pin away from the primer is the spring. It's a design that is prone to drop-fires, and while that doesn't bother me in a target gun, it does bother me in a carry gun.

MANY guns with a saftey are as bad or worse thant he P-11 in drop fires... older 1911's are among them (the origonal design did not have a FP block).

[makdaddy03]

You can keep your Kahr and Keltec. Ill keep my Mak.

"and hope they all work when and if needed". I know my Makarov will.

I do find it interesting that the two guns (Kahr & Keltec) are so close in the voting, its just to close to call.

Coldshot good call. Over 3000 rds through mine. Just changed springs yesterday. No Problem! I just did it.;)

[Watch-Six]

I'm not a big fan of Kahr or KelTec, but I do own a PM9. It was too much money for what you get, but it works great and can indeed be carried in a pocket with a real 9mmP. Sorry, but the 9mm Mak isn't in the same power class as a 9mmP. I have seen a local guy do very well in IDPA shooting with a KelTec P11. In fact, I was amazed. Still, the KelTec is NOT of equal quality of a Kahr. I had a KelTec P32 that was a lemon. My opinion of KelTec was seriously damaged by it. After three trips back to the factory it still did not work. If you get a KelTec that works they are a bargain. If they don't work I am not impressed with their repair service. Fast, but ineffective. Just my opinion. Watch-Six