[Gunsby_Blazen]

Are there any good over and under shotguns (12gauge) that wont cost you both and arm and a leg? Even the Ruger Red Labels are fairly high up there. Not that I don't like Rugers, but they are usually the company I turn to when I want something that isn't overly priced. What is there out there?

[Jimmie]

CZ (Huglu) makes some nice stuff.

[Ethics]

O/U's are the most impractical shotgun, imo.

[RNB65]

Depends on what you're planning to do with it. A high quality O/U will outlive several semi-autos in high volume shooting such as clay shooting. No moving parts to jam, break, or wear out. The life of an O/U is usually measured in the hundreds of thousands of rounds while the life of a semi-auto is usually measured in the tens of thousands before major repairs/rebuilds are necessary.

I clay shoot with both a Browning 425 O/U and a Beretta 391 autoloader and I enjoy both equally. I've never had a single failure of any type with the O/U in 20,000+ rounds fired thru it. The same cannot be said of the autoloader in which I routinely have 1 or 2 cycling failures per 1000 rounds.

I'd avoid Huglu/CZ for anything more than light field use. Nice looking shotguns, but they don't have a very good track record for heavy use.

[ArmedBear]

Are there any good over and under shotguns (12gauge) that wont cost you both and arm and a leg?

Nope.

An O/U worth buying starts over $1000. Get used to that idea. Don't go looking for one until you are used to it.

People think they can get one for $500, and everyone I've known who did that has ended up buying two shotguns instead of one. Might as well save the $500 up front.

That said, check CDNN's deals on Winchesters right now. $899 is a steal.

SKB makes a nice gun for a good price. Their 12 Gauges aren't light, but they're not as overweight as Rugers or Citoris. I've got a 30-year-old SKB I hunt with. Works like new. That's part of what you pay for with a decent break-action.

I'd rather have something around 7 lbs., not 8. I think the Beretta
White Onyx is a great gun and worth the price. If you want to go real light, Franchis are beautiful and less expensive than the Berettas.

What do you want it for?

O/U's are the most impractical shotgun, imo.

And I don't shoot anything else much, any more. O/U's work really well for me, they feel great, and they're one of the safest guns to use in the field with other people around.

Depends what you do with it, I guess.

[Gunsby_Blazen]

Yeah, i wasn't looking for one sub 1k, but most i have seen, that I like are 2k and up. Even used ones are extremely high. I am wanting one for trap. I have just started fooling around with shotguns a few months ago. All I have is a Stevens pump trench gun (it looks like a browning though). I think it was made during the 1940s and is still in great condition considering its age. But now I am looking to maybe buy one that I can dedicate to trap. I am a college student and I have limited funds so there is my problem.

[ArmedBear]

I feel your pain.

That Stevens sounds like a neat gun!

It ain't pretty, but I shoot trap as well with an 870 Express as any gun I've had and better than a "real" trap gun I had and sold in frustration.

Pumps make great trap guns with 28" or 30" barrels. Even old Model 12's are available cheaper than O/U's. Can you borrow some and see what you like?

If you are happy with function over form, you can get or put together a great American Trap gun for a few hundred bucks. Maybe a bit more, if it's pretty.

WRT the nice-looking Turkish guns... The Mossberg International can be had, new, for under 500 bucks. However, everyone I know who has bought one in 12 Gauge has had firing pin failures, some over and over again. For 500 bucks, you can get a gorgeous used 870 trap gun, Model 12, etc., and those guns will last forever.

Food for thought... (And per William Blake, a Song of Experience)

[RNB65]

More clays have been broken on the trap range with the Rem 870 than probably all other shotguns combined. An 870 express with a long barrel should fit a college student's budget without too much pain. Then start saving your pennies and dimes for a more expensive gun in the future.

[Snarlingiron]

CDNN and Academy both have the Weatherby Orion Upland O/U by SKB for about $995.00. This thing is build like a tank. I can't imagine you would ever wear the thing out.

[Hornet 6]

The good things in life are never cheap.
A decent O/U will last you a lifetime, and then some.

Neil.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y208/neilclay/Miroku1.jpg

[Gunsby_Blazen]

Thanks for the advice, I am getting to think I should make this purchase down the road when I am more financially secure and get a gun that I would really want. I am thinking that I might take the advice and look into a 870 with a long barrel for now. That actually sounds like the best plan for both the short and long run for me. You cant have too many guns anyway.
Thanks for all of the advice guys.

by the way, thats a fine looking shotgun you have there, Hornet

[bannockburn]

Gunsby Blazen

Don't rule out something used, even in an O/U, that could serve you well enough for trap shooting, and still not set you back a couple grand. One gun show I was at, there were a couple of older, but in excellent condition O/U's that would have been great for trap; one of them was actually a Charles Daly trap model (back when they imported them from Japan). The only drawback to either of these two shotguns was the fact that they had fixed chokes; Full and Modified. But since that's all you need for trap, they would have been just fine.

[Dave McCracken]

The O/U design does not lend itself to cost cutting manufacturing.

Getting the barrels impacting in the same Zip Code takes good machining and tight tolerances.

The Beretta White Onyx is only cosmetically different from Beretta's high dollar 680 series O/Us and runs less than $2K in the sporting model. The field model is both lighter and cheaper.

My WO Sporter has maybe 8K rounds through it since I got it 16 months past. No glitches, lots of broken clays.....

Other good mid grade O/Us include....

The Winchester 101.

Miroku's various models.

SKB, making fine O/Us since the 60s.

Mariocchi.

Browning's Citori.

Any of these are quite cheap on a cost per use basis. All will last longer than we will.

[Hornet 6]

Originally Quoted by Gunsby_Blazen
by the way, thats a fine looking shotgun you have there, Hornet

Thanks, I like it too :cool:
It is a Miroku Mk70, new they are out of my price range at around £1000.00.
I spent a while looking and found this one, which is 6 years old but little used, with decent oil finished wood, instead of the new style varnish on pale wood, that the new ones seem to get for £650.00.
So don't give up, keep looking.
My job was made 20 times harder because I wanted a 28g, which over here are like hens teeth.

Neil. :)

[TX1911fan]

Go to Academy and look at Yildiz. If you are not shooting high volumes, this will be a great entry level O/U. Right now I believe it is $450 or so. I've had one for two years and it's done me just fine. At some point I'll spend the cash and get a Beretta, but for now, my little Yildiz is all I need.

[Gunsby_Blazen]

What do you guys say about those inexpensive Stoegers and Mossbergs? The prices are not even in the same zip code as the Brownings and lower end Berettas. What about them makes them so much more less expensive? They all seem to be about the same weight. Are they less accurate? less durable? Workmanship that much worse?
Thanks for your help,

[ScottsGT]

Want a Boito? They are built in Brazil, were made for K-mart and sell for almost nothing. I'll ship you one for $200 to an FFL. Interested, I'll get you photos.

[Dave McCracken]

Gunz, cheap O/Us are nigh universally a bad idea. While some folks swear by them, round counts from these folks are quite low.

IOW, if you use them to any extent, they break, shoot way off or otherwise glitch.

The best way to gauge actual cost of a firearms is by cost per use.

My Beretta cost less than $1800. About 80K rounds from now, it'll need new locking lugs fitted. After another 80K rounds, I may need some other parts.

There's good reason you see lots of these in the hands of folks who shoot 20K rounds each year.

If I sold it today, it'd move for $1500.

OTOH, you can pick up a Mossberg for less than $600. If you somehow avoid the firing pin and lockup issues, you can run maybeso 20K through it before it gets loose. At any point, you can sell it for $300 if you're lucky.

Cheap O/Us are money pits. Don't jump in.

[TX1911fan]

Dave, I agree with you if someone is going to put up that type of a round count. I won't shoot 80K rounds in my lifetime. Not even close. If I shoot 1000 rounds a year I'm lucky. So my little Yildiz works just fine for me. I hit with it and it works.

Do I want a Beretta some day? Of course. But until I can justify spending a couple grand on a gun I use once or twice a month at most, I'll stick with the cheapie. I bought my Yildiz for $350. Even if I sell it for only $50, I've lost as much as you would on your Beretta, so in dollar terms we are no different, except that your cash outlay was much higher. Sure, you retained a much higher percentage of value, but in real dollar terms it made no difference.

[ArmedBear]

If I shoot 1000 rounds a year I'm lucky.

Once or twice a month, let's say 1.5x per month. 18 times per year. Let's say you shoot 4 rounds of trap or skeet, or equivalent 5-stand or clays, depending on what your range offers. That's 100 rounds.

100 x 18 = 1800

Now the Yildiz may be a better-built gun than others, but I've never seen one, so I can't make any comments about it.

I can only discuss what I have seen, and that's this:

Our local sporting goods chain sells Mossberg Silver Reserves. The MSR is known for breaking after 2000-2500 rounds. That means that, if you buy one and practice every 3 weeks for a year, then go hunting, it will break while you're hunting with it.

Hell, sometimes even a casual shotgunner blows a brain fuse trying to get a 50 patch or something and shoots 1000 rounds in a weekend.

People think that 2000 rounds is a lot, but it turns out not to be. With a hunting rifle it would be, but not a shotgun.:)

[freakshow10mm]

I have a cheap Stoeger Condor 20" 20ga O/U. Paid $350 new. I don't shoot much, just hunt. Needed a light quick handling shotty for uplands in very thick habitat. Price was right, what the hell.

My dream shotgun is a Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon Sporting 20ga 26" with matte finish barrels.

[Ash]

A Savage 333 or 330 made by Valmet, or 440 or 444 made by Fabarms can be had in the $500 range and they are excellent shotguns. They are naturally used, but for the price, they are far better than the Turks on the market now. Because of those, I disagree that one has to spend a grand to get a good shotgun.

Change that to spending a grand to get a good new shotgun, perhaps, but one can get a really great over/under for less than that. And, even if you want to get removable chokes, the total cost of installation would still be less than $800.

Ash

[ArmedBear]

Like I said, $899 will get you a Winchester Select from CDNN right now.

My point about the $1000 is this: if you think "500", you're thinking wrong. If you think "1000" and you find a gun for $500, then your critical thinking skills will get put into play. You'll ask, "Why?" If the answer is good, you get a good deal. But you won't expect a good gun for 500 bucks or less, so you won't be as tempted by a bad deal.

I'm not saying nobody ever got a good gun for 500 bucks used. I did, actually. However, I've also gotten screwed when I bought a gun for $600, because I wasn't being skeptical enough. For $1100, I could have just bought a new one rather than paying tuition at the University of Hard Knocks.

Those Valmets are nice. I haven't seen many for sale here.:) Used SKB's can be had for a decent price, too.

Buying a used gun if you aren't really knowledgeable about what to look for is a crap shoot. In the long run, I'm glad I got screwed. Now I can see where the good deals are, and where they aren't. But the OP is in college and can't afford to get screwed, just for the lessons it teaches.

I'd say that someone learns more about shooting trap by buying an inexpensive 870 and a bunch of ammo and tickets, instead of an O/U he can barely afford, and having little cash for shooting it. Worked for me, anyway -- not that I'm a great trap shooter, but I'm better than before I practiced anyway.:)

[TX1911fan]

Armed Bear, I agree with your logic and your calculations. I'm just saying that for a casual shooter, one who shoots a few rounds a year, there is no need to pay a lot for a shotgun unless they want to. The OP has said he is a college student and doesn't have a lot of money. That means to me (1) he can't afford a lot for a gun, (2) he won't be able to afford a lot for ammo and targets, and (3) he probably doesn't have a bunch of time. I could be off base here, but my guess is he'll get out a couple times a month, at most, and probably shoot two rounds. A lower priced shotgun would fit the bill nicely there. If it lasts him 3 or 4 years until he is done college and can afford a nicer gun, then it has worked. Better that than to wait and not shoot at all.

I've not heard that Mossbergs only last 2000 rounds. That clearly is unaccceptable. I've got about that in my Yildiz and have experienced no problems other than a stuck ejector because I hadn't cleaned well enough. Most other Yildiz owners are reporting similar results.

[Hawk]

Agreed that the OP mentioned budget constraints, college, etc. but he slid this into a subsequent post:
I am wanting one for trap.
'Oh, oh' says I, 'trap'. If the addiction strikes he's doomed. High volume for sure.

An older 870TB seems the easiest intro and it'll run forever. But if there's a budget trap double I haven't seen one. It seems as often as not the bargain is simply a 500.00 speed bump on the way to coughing up the funds for a more established product and little is recovered from the 500.00.

I'm sure there are exceptions and looking for "just as good as for less" is one of the great American pastimes and fun all on its own.

[ArmedBear]

looking for "just as good as for less" is one of the great American pastimes and fun all on its own

True enough, but my $250 1100 turned out to be "soup from a stone.":)

Also, when I was in college, I didn't have a well-equipped garage, either. Home gunsmithing would have been very difficult, acquiring tools would have been expensive.

Some of the projects that a guy with a 3-car garage, a machine shop and poor judgment, might take on are not the best idea for someone in college who just wants to shoot trap.;)

[Hawk]

Looking's fun but I haven't connected with one of these bargains yet.

As far as bargain trap O/Us go, I only hear about "just as good as for less" but it's like travelling in bigfoot country. You don't expect anything but carry the camera anyway.

In clay games I think old dad had it right: "Might as well start off with what you're going to wind up with - cheaper that way".

[SN13]

$100 Chinese CAI Imported O/U.

Shot 23/25 Trap Clays Last night!

29.5" 2 3/4 w/fixed Full/Mod chokes.

Does the job with Federal Value Pack Target load.

O/U: $100
Ammo: $0.20 EA

Breaking more clays than the guys with the $3000 Citori & $3000 Cynergy: Priceless.


Remember, no amount of money will break the clays for ya, you still gotta do your part.


Now, after all that, i will say that the Cynergy and Citori guns are MUCH NICER to point, shoulder, aim, carry, open, and close than my Bargain O/U.

[ArmedBear]

Shot 23/25 Trap Clays Last night!

You almost qualified for our club's "24 damn it!" patch. Seriously, we have them.:)

the Cynergy and Citori guns are MUCH NICER to point, shoulder, aim, carry, open, and close

Really? Your O/U must REALLY be cheap.

Well, okay, some of the Cynergy guns do point well.

I had a Browning that opened and closed easily. That's because it was shot-out, totally trashed by a Friday-night clay games shooter with overpressure rounds. That will loosen a gun right up. The barrel flapped up and down on the hinge, when it was locked closed.:uhoh:

It pointed about as well as a length of 4x4. Maybe those lightening holes in the barrel improve things a bit on the new ones...

Lessons learned....:)

[SN13]

LoL well I only handled one Cynergy, and it was tight, but much smoother than my O/U.... and it did point well with the raised comb.

BUT, I'll keep my money and stick with the Cheapinese O/U rather than spending alot more for very little improvement.

[Hawk]

It pointed about as well as a length of 4x4. Maybe those lightening holes in the barrel improve things a bit on the new ones...
Why, AB, one would almost think you didn't care for relatively high profile receivers or perforations.

I never tried the Cynergy's stablemate but the Cynergy doesn't seem far off from the Beretta. I actually found myself wondering if a composite field Cynergy could be trap-ified what with that adjustable everything on the stock. That might constitute something of bargain although certainly not in the same league with the 100.00 Chinese O/U.

The holes aren't for lightening, they're for "flow-through". Reduces resistance to swing in longer barrels much like ventilated barrel connectors.
;)

[ArmedBear]

the Cynergy doesn't seem far off from the Beretta

It's not. I really like the way the Cynergy points. The first time I tried one, my reaction was, "This feels a lot like a SxS." AFAIK that's why Browning developed the Cynergy.

I wasn't being entirely serious above...:)

I think the problem with the Browning I described was that it was an old Invector barrel. The new overbore barrels with Invector Plus chokes, whether or not they offer any real ballistic or pattern advantage, feel a LOT better. More lively, better balanced.

Reduces resistance to swing in longer barrels much like ventilated barrel connectors.


LOL

I wonder why there aren't any free-floated O/Us...:p

[SN13]

Quote:
You almost qualified for our club's "24 damn it!" patch. Seriously, we have them.

My best before 23 was 22... and that was 20/20 the first 4 stations and 2/5 on the last one /sigh.