FN FS2000 vs PS90 vs Sig 556 vs AR vs Masada


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silentpoet
May 26, 2008, 09:04 PM
This year I want to buy one nice carbine before 1 of the 3 democrats running gets into office. I have handled all of the ones I want except the Masada of course. The FS2000 is the one I really like but it is on the high end. I can get an AR set up like I want it with optic for the price of the FS2000. The PS90 is kinda of at the back of the pack, but it is very compact.

The gun would be for fun and maybe home defense. Absolute accuracy is not super critical as long as it is reliable and fun to shoot. Ammo availability has me leaning to one of the 5.56/223 rifles. Taking AR mags would be nice. The FS2000 takes metal ar mags but not 20 rounders and PMAGs. But it does fit me nicely.

On the Sig I would likely get the commando model with the folding stock. But even the base model would be nice.

For the AR I have looked at the SW MP15 that is a flat top with both front and rear flip up sights. Also looked at a mark 12, bushmaster I think, flat top. I would consider a wilson combat if the price/quality was similar.

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GunNut
May 26, 2008, 09:12 PM
Only one?

Heck, I have a PS90 on layaway and will be buying at least one to two more "high" end semi-autos in the next 6 months.

In the last 10 days I have picked up a GSG-5(.22lr MP5 German made clone) and a milled Arsenal SA-93 AK47.....:D

I've got an AR already, but am considering getting a LMT or Colt sometime in the very near future.

I can't afford all of these guns, but if the worst happens, I can't afford not to have them. :evil:

The PS90 and FS2000 would be the easiest guns for a dem President to ban as they are totally imported and all it takes is an executive order. If either of those are on you list, then I recommend buying them first.

Daemon688
May 26, 2008, 09:15 PM
Well you can rule out the Masada since they're delaying it until 09. Personally, just to save some cash I would get the 556 or the AR. Otherwise FS2000 goes to the head of the pack because it's a bullpup, few people have it, and it looks like a space gun :D

GunNut
May 26, 2008, 09:23 PM
Also, don't forget one of the AUG clones or possibly a real Steyr AUG which should be available later this year.

I have always wanted an AUG and will probably pick one up over the FS2000.

trbon8r
May 26, 2008, 09:31 PM
I would disagree that just because the Masada is delayed until '09 that you should rule it out. Keep in mind that even if Hussein Osama is elected, he won't take office until January of '09. He as well as the rest of the Dummycrats will still have other pesky "minor" problems to deal with like the war, economy, housing market, health care, deficit......etc. It's not like banning all AWs will be priority number one in Hussein's administration and everything will automatically be banned come January 2009.

This isn't to say you shouldn't buy what you want now and prepare for the worst. I have. I'm just saying that even if we lose, we still have a minimum of a year, and likely a bit longer to go before legislation could be passed and implemented.

taliv
May 26, 2008, 09:46 PM
if you don't have an AR, get one. a good one. and another one just like it. then get the toys

silentpoet
May 26, 2008, 11:12 PM
I looked at the MSAR aug once, I prefer the FS2000 and the FN is cheaper.

What I didn't like about the PS90 is it seemed a little short stocked for me. Also mag changes seemed a little akward. But I do like having 50 rounds on tap.

The FS2000 really fit me well and is compact. The only possible concern would be the availability of spare parts. It does accept 30rd AR magazines.

I just have never really warmed up to ARs. I think I would have to get one with one of the magpull stocks or a standard a2 stock.

This rifle will be my primary rifle. So I want to make a good choice and also pick a top of the line rifle that I can be happy with for years to come.

GunNut
May 26, 2008, 11:16 PM
I looked at the MSAR aug once, I prefer the FS2000 and the FN is cheaper.

That's not true. MSAR Aug's can be had for around $1500 in an optics ready setup. Which puts it $500 less than the FS2000.

I do like the FS2000 but i like the more sleek look of the AUG more. I have a dealer who will sell me a FS2000 for cost, it's the one with the factory optic, but it will still cost me $2100 out the door.

Good luck in deciding, I really think you need a part time job so that you can buy one of each.......:neener:

trbon8r
May 26, 2008, 11:28 PM
Not to offend the FS2000 or PS90 folks, but in my opinion those two rifles fall into the high priced toy or novelty category. In other words they are items to be bought once you already have a basic rifle that is your go to piece. I've handled the PS90 and it felt like a clunky kludge of a weapon. I've never heard anyone in the know that proclaims either of those rifles as contenders for an "only" rifle. Not to mention the PS90 fires and oddball caliber that will cost a lot to shoot.

The AR is a battle tested piece, and you can't go wrong with buying an AR from one of the top of the line vendors.

Some people seem to be happy with the 556, but I don't see what it does that an AR doesn't. The Masada/ACR is a wildcard. Who knows how that will turn out once it is eventually released. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

TexasRifleman
May 27, 2008, 12:02 AM
The PS90 is in the toy category. I have one and it's mainly a toy because of the 5.7 round.

In it's current civvie legal form that round is just not quite up with 5.56 in the other rifles.

Something to keep in mind if you're looking at any defensive use.

silentpoet
May 27, 2008, 12:53 AM
On the aug I was just going by prices at my local store. I may end up getting an AR, but like I said they just never really seem right to me. I know it is a proven platform, but they just seem off to me. Like glocks, I know they are very good but glocks just don't fit me. The AR has a lot going for it, I am just not yet convinced it is for me. Maybe I just need the right setup and the right stock.

Right now I would rank what I am most likely to buy to least likely to buy. This is of course subject to change.
1. FS2000
2. Sig 556
3. AR

George Hill
May 27, 2008, 01:05 PM
"Some people seem to be happy with the 556, but I don't see what it does that an AR doesn't."
Increased reliability in all conditions and quicker and easier to clean. What's not to like about that? You can mount everything on a 556 that you can mount on an AR. The 556 is the gun I wish I had in the Army. And it is a battle proven design, taking from the 550 series... so it's not a virgin like the ACR or FS2000.

Clean97GTI
May 27, 2008, 01:38 PM
Don't forget the Robinson Arms XCR or M96.

taliv
May 27, 2008, 02:00 PM
ergonomics on the sig556, if that's what you're talking about, are teh suq

trbon8r
May 27, 2008, 02:10 PM
Increased reliability in all conditions and quicker and easier to clean.

More reliable? I'd like to see some testing above and beyond the useless stuff found in gun rags that would support this claim.

elmerfudd
May 27, 2008, 02:17 PM
This isn't to say you shouldn't buy what you want now and prepare for the worst. I have. I'm just saying that even if we lose, we still have a minimum of a year, and likely a bit longer to go before legislation could be passed and implemented.

This is true, but if the 'rats win in Nov the prices will rise dramatically the very next day and they'll keep rising until legislation is passed.

Z-Michigan
May 27, 2008, 02:29 PM
#1) Get two AR-15's for the price of any one of the others. Get an M4-clone and a longer barrel one (20" or 24") with a stainless 1-8 barrel and nice trigger. So many options to choose from. AR's are reliable for anything you're likely to do. Spare parts and magazines will never be an issue. And almost nothing semiauto is more accurate than a quality AR.

#2) Get the Sig 556 if you don't want an AR or wish to blow all your $$$ on a single rifle. It's older tech, but is very nice. I looked at one and started drooling, and I own several AR's and a Robinson M96. (However, I probably won't actually buy one because I can't find that it is really better than the M96 I already own.)

I have had a chance to inspect an FS2000 pretty closely and I wasn't imrpessed. It is a bullpup that ejects to the front. It is clumsy, poorly balanced, feels cheap, has a questionable trigger, no last shot hold-open, etc. etc. I would buy one for $700, maybe. I wouldn't think about it for the $1900 or so they actually go for.

The PS90 is basically a toy with civvie ammo. To make things worse, only FN makes and sells ammo right now. Yup, one supplier. It's cool, but not a pick for SHTF.

The Masada/ACR will probably be great when it comes out. Whenever that is. Could be a while. Dates always seem to slip. If you're going to wait that long, I would get the Keltec RFB, another near-unicorn with a similar future and floating delivery date.

Not on your list but worth consideration is the Robinson XCR.

Wes Janson
May 27, 2008, 02:40 PM
Or buy a Kel-Tec RFB when it comes out! ;)

Leif Runenritzer
May 27, 2008, 04:24 PM
How about a combination? I'm tempted to get an AR-57 (http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35&products_id=338), and the price of the ammo isn't horrendous.

Too bad there isn't an F$1000.:D

Jason_G
May 27, 2008, 05:08 PM
PS90:
I absolutely detest the way the PS90 handles. Too short and simply does not feel natural to shoulder, at least in my hands, YMMV. You have to search for the sight/optic/whatever you want to call that pitiful excuse of an aiming device :barf:. Optics are available, but would almost be a necessity rather than an optional modification. The PS90 would however be a good weapon for someone in enclosed spaces like a vehicle to have vs. a pistol or full length rifle. Otherwise, it's a less than substantial rifle other than being a conversation piece. If you want one just to own one, then that's a horse of a different color. Personally I could find much more use for a full length rifle.

FS2000:
Handles better than the PS90, but I still wasn't super-impressed with it. I don't particularly like the way the rifle operates. Seems like a jam would be a real PITA to clear, and I don't care for the way the cases are "ejected" (crapped out is more like it). Most folks that own one seem to like theirs though.

SiG:
Never really handled one, but on paper I like 'em. They look like a great rifle IMO, but like I said, I haven't shot one to know for sure.

AR-15:
I would either go with a good AR or the Sig out of the choices you've laid out. An AR can obviously be fitted with different uppers for more versatility. Optics abound, as well as other possible mods. You are really unlimited on this platform in terms of different things you can do to it.


Jason

Coronach
May 27, 2008, 05:58 PM
My personal opinions:

FS2000: I shot one once, and I thought that it handled better than it looks. However, that ain't saying much, and I still think that the ergos were substandard. I think you could get used to them, though, and I freely admit it is not a fair comparison since I only handled one once.

PS90: I like the general ergonomics, but the sighting system is bleh and the cartridge is bleh squared.

Sig 556: I like the action and I would love to love this rifle, but man, it somehow manages to be unwieldy out of all proportion to its dimensions. Again, I've only fiddled with one, so one could easily grow to love it, but IMHO it handles like a pig compared to an AR.

AR15: I really hate to say it, but in smallboreEBRville, the AR is still the standard by which others are judged. I know they jam up and are so fragile that the gossamer wing of a butterly fluttering in the adjoining township can cause one to break, but I must be lucky, with mine still running like a top.

Masada/ACR: Right now, this thing is perfect. But only because we haven't managed to get our grubby mitts on one to find its faults. Like the Sig556, I want to love this rifle. But we'll only see if the reality can keep up with the hype.

Mike

PS You forgot the XCR, which may very well be the only one of the next-generation EBRs to make it into widespread circulation, depending on what happens next year.

taliv
May 27, 2008, 06:47 PM
well, it's hardly 'next-generation' but the microtech aug might be my next purchase. (after i buy a few CD ARs, of course)

Tarvis
May 27, 2008, 07:58 PM
AR15: I really hate to say it, but in smallboreEBRville, the AR is still the standard by which others are judged. I know they jam up and are so fragile that the gossamer wing of a butterly fluttering in the adjoining township can cause one to break,

Boo this man!

but I must be lucky, with mine still running like a top.

Thats what I'm talkin about ;).

Friend of a friend came out to shoot one day with a fancy new M&P ar15. Looked really nice, but I smirked when he said he paid $1200 for something I can build for $700-$800 depending on the handguard.

I really like the concept of the PS90, only thing keeping me from buying it is the price. I hate buying anything I can't get the cost out of, wether I plan on selling it or not. The 5.7 cartridge is weak sauce in comparison to 5.56, but what platform offers 50 round standard mags in a platform that small and handy? Besides, no one complained about the energy/performance of the 17 hmr when it came out. As far as the standard sights go, agreed they are pretty weak, which is why you should get the tri rail and put on what you like.

XCR looks really cool and I'm sure is really reliable and very modular. Problem is, I'm not rich. A salesman at a recent gunshow told me it is the ultimate battle rifle, capable of firing almost any practical cartridge. Problem is, it is on the same basis as the AR in the fact that .308 size cartridges require a different lower. I haven't figured out what the platform has to offer that is leaps and bounds, put another way, worth $700+ a homebuilt AR with a piston system has to offer.

Masada, see above. Really cool, really expensive.

FS2000, not really sure. Looks cool, uses AR mags which is cool, can hold 3 spent cases without ejecting or jamming which is pretty much only good for committing crimes which none of us do, not many people have 'em which makes you cool if you have one, so it gets an A+ in the cool department. Function wise, what does it do a piston AR doesn't?


My vote: build a few AR's in the calibers of your choice, put a piston on one and a 22lr conversion on another and the problem is solved.

Coronach
May 27, 2008, 08:04 PM
The cost of the XCR and the Masada (depending upon final configuration and price point) is somewhat mitigated by the capabilities that they bring to the table. Assuming you're looking for something that can do what the XCR and ACR can do (switch calibers, switch barrels, fold stocks, have rails everywhere, etc etc etc), you're probably about even or ahead by going the XCR/ACR route as opposed to buying an AR and tarting it up. This assumes, of course, that you want/need the extra capabilities that the nextgen rifles will allegedly have. If you're looking for a basic EBR .223 rifle, you're money ahead buying an M4 and calling it a day.

Mike

taliv
May 27, 2008, 08:24 PM
heh, probably coronach, but it depends on what replacement/wear parts cost for the xcr/acr, too. over the lifetime, the tarted up AR might yet pull ahead :)

Z-Michigan
May 27, 2008, 08:26 PM
I really like the concept of the PS90, only thing keeping me from buying it is the price. I hate buying anything I can't get the cost out of, wether I plan on selling it or not. The 5.7 cartridge is weak sauce in comparison to 5.56, but what platform offers 50 round standard mags in a platform that small and handy? Besides, no one complained about the energy/performance of the 17 hmr when it came out. As far as the standard sights go, agreed they are pretty weak, which is why you should get the tri rail and put on what you like.


The 17 HMR is intended for squirrels and gophers. No one sells it for self-defense. I would rate it a good SD round if zombie squirrels are a worry. Step up to the 5.7x28mm and zombie groundhogs should be in danger.

The comment about caliber adaptability on the XCR and ACR is good, but XCR caliber conversion kits run something like $500, not far from just buying a new AR (and as much or more than a new AR upper with barrel). I like the looks of both of them, but they will be (ACR) or are (XCR) pricier than the AR options that you can buy today.

Well-Armed Lamb
May 27, 2008, 08:32 PM
If you want a shooter, a Sig 556 or an AR. Stock up on AR mags.

If you're collector-minded, however, go PS90. The reason I say this is: notice the proliferation of US-guns-flooding-Mexico media stories? Two weapons, without fail, are mentioned in every single one. These weapons are the Five-seveN pistol and the .50 BMG rifle. For the Five-seveN, the media is hitting the "cop killer bullet" angle, giving that as the reason the pistol is so popular in Mexico. (For some reason, they never mention the restrictions on ammunition enabling that feature, probably because it'd spoil their angle.) The .50 BMG is, of course, the Lightning Bolt of Doom, and I've read several articles stating it's been used in several high-profile assassinations of Mexican government officials. (Annoyingly, the American media coverage of Mexico being as dreadful as it is, the only time I've ever seen this reported is in the stories with a pro-ban slant. It's as if the media thinks that massive drug wars with the potential to lead the country to our immediate south into an out-and-out civil war couldn't conceivably be of any interest to us.)

I think these stories are laying groundwork. We've seen, again and again, the demonization of particular weapons used to prepare the ground for hoped-for legislation to ban (and, for the ATF, increased funding to better fight) those *particular* nasty, bad, evil, guns. I suspect that the ban-'em-all crowd is learning from their mistakes. Popular guns have a lot of defenders, because people use them in all sorts of ways. Look for the gun banners to agitate against weapons with a relatively small constituency -- i.e., *guns that not a lot of people own.* Expensive guns shooting expensive ammunition are a prime target. They'll be going after the 5.7x28 mm and the .50 BMG -- and they'll be hoping that if they keep a narrow focus, most mainstream gun owners won't be too annoyed.

So, if you want a PS90 or a .50 at some point, you might want to buy soon.

(I like shooting the PS90, but its magazines are annoying to load and the sights flat-out stink. It is a fun plinker, though, I'll give it that.)

shep854
May 27, 2008, 09:20 PM
My solution to this dilemma was a Kel-Tec SU-16C. I also want to build an M16A1 civ clone. I figure that once I get the lower receiver (the "gun" part), I can pick up the rest of the parts at leisure and assemble them.

For the undecided, I hear Saiga makes some good rifles.

benEzra
May 27, 2008, 09:44 PM
I'd suggest a 16" AR with all the bells and whistles and a nice optic, and use the money you save over the FS2000 to buy plenty of magazines, and ammunition (it's not going to get any cheaper, the way metals prices are going). You could also get a spare bolt, firing pin, extractor spring, etc. with the spare change.

Ammunition for the PS90 is always going to be rare and expensive compared to .223/5.56x45mm, the FS2000 doesn't have much of a track record yet, and I have heard that the Sig 556 is fantastically well made but rather heavy even without optics.

If the Masada were already on the market, it'd be in the running, but if you get an AR now and have the opportunity to buy a Masada later, the magazines and ammunition you buy for the AR will work with both guns.

Coronach
May 27, 2008, 09:56 PM
If the Masada were already on the market, it'd be in the running, but if you get an AR now and have the opportunity to buy a Masada later, the magazines and ammunition you buy for the AR will work with both guns.BINGO!

When the Masada concept was first publicized, I was torn between completing a few AR builds or keeping my one AR and waiting on the Masada. The current situation (economy unstable, Dems looking at a victory, Masada/ACR starting to do the usual Bushmaster/Magpul "it will be a few months" dance) has led me to not hold my breath on the ACR and to complete the AR builds now. If I can get an ACR that doesn't suck later, great. But I'll have some ARs that don't suck in the meantime.

Mike

trbon8r
May 27, 2008, 10:19 PM
Another thing to chew on, is that with a built up AR lower receiver there are a world of options out there.

If somehow the production of new EBRs were banned, I could envision some smart company coming out with a redesigned upper that is totally different than anything we have seen in the AR world in terms of an operating system, yet is compatible with the thousands of AR lowers that are out there. Picture if you will, a newly designed upper with upgrades to some of the minor quirks in the AR system. Possibly something with a redesigned bolt, barrel extension, and a new gas system. Yet this brand new design would fit perfectly on a standard AR lower. Picture sort of an XCR upper that is compatible with a standard AR lower.

Even if a ban were to happen I think there will still be quite a bit of development in the world of AR compatible uppers. If they can make .50 BMG uppers that fit on a standard AR lower, a newly designed 5.56 AR upper shouldn't be too much of a stretch. :)

Coronach
May 27, 2008, 11:43 PM
You assume that any future ban will be like the last one, and allow production and use of new uppers. I would say that this is a dangerous assumption.

Mike

trbon8r
May 27, 2008, 11:50 PM
You assume that any future ban will be like the last one, and allow production and use of new uppers. I would say that this is a dangerous assumption.


I would say the odds are better than even money that any future ban would not include a ban on new uppers. I don't claim to have a crystal ball that can forecast this with any certainty, but if I had to bet I think we will have a good supply of uppers for years to come.

Kind of Blued
May 27, 2008, 11:52 PM
You've GOT to have a decent AR. Even a plain jane 20" Standard A2 is a beautiful tool. One of these and a dolled-up carbine can both be had for about the price of the FS2000.

After that, I think a FAL or an M1A is absolutely necessary, but we're talkin' poodleshooters here. :)

silentpoet
May 28, 2008, 12:08 AM
I'll have to see an AR with a better stock before I am convinced to buy one. None of the ones I have looked at with the standard 6 position stock have seemed right to me. There is a gunshow coming up here in June and maybe there I will get a chance to try one out then.

TexasRifleman
May 28, 2008, 12:54 AM
I would say the odds are better than even money that any future ban would not include a ban on new uppers.

Go read HR1022. If something similar to that passes then it will pretty much outlaw the sale of all AR accessories.

You might lose a lot of money on your bet.

It outlaws "A conversion kit" which is defined as:

Conversion Kit- The term `conversion kit' means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon, and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Any threaded barrel is on that list, among many many other things.

Be careful assuming it will all work out OK.

trbon8r
May 28, 2008, 01:52 AM
Go read HR1022. If something similar to that passes then it will pretty much outlaw the sale of all AR accessories.

You might lose a lot of money on your bet.


I've read 1022, and am not assuming anything, in fact quite the opposite.

The hacks in D.C. can propose virtually anything, but what matters is the finished product. Bear in mind that by the time most bills are amended dozens of times over, and compromises are made; the final product rarely resembles what was initially proposed. If the past is an indication, the antis have usually shown a distinct lack of creativity.

Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball, but my money is still on parts such as uppers being available for the foreseeable future. All I was trying to say to the OP was that should things play out this way, it wouldn't surprise me if in spite of a ban there would still be further development in AR compatible uppers that we can't even imagine at this time. If gun makers are prevented by law from selling a newly designed weapon system, it would only make sense that they would put R&D money into modding and updating the AR. If it doesn't go this way and parts are banned as well, the OP would still have an AR which is a perfectly capable weapon anyway. :)

I do agree with the sentiment of not taking anything for granted. I've already bought what I need in terms of weapons, mags, spare parts, and then some. :evil: Write letters, call your congress critter, and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Tomac
May 28, 2008, 08:44 AM
Sorry, gentlemen, I've got to play Devil's advocate here in defense of the PS90. First of all, it wasn't designed to compete with or replace the 5.56 for frontline combat any more than any pistol-caliber carbine. It's a PDW (personal defense weapon) and in that light and as a suvival cartridge it does have some advantages. It's very short/manueverable (26" OAL) and can be aimed/fired effectively w/one hand (5.56 rifles?), is easily fired from prone (5.56 rifles?), is fully ambidextrous (5.56 rifles?), ammo weighs half as much as 9mm or 5.56 so twice as much can be carried for the same weight, has mild muzzle blast and no muzzle flash (5.56 rifles?), 50rds before reloading and quality 5.7 ammo is actually cheaper ($.35/rd delivered) than some quality 5.56 ammo nowadays. Yes, both the factory ringsights suck but then it's very easy to replace them w/the optic of your choice (I use the Aimpoint ML3). Having the FN Five-seveN pistol that fires the same rd for simplified logistics is just icing on the cake. Just my $.02 worth.
Tomac
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofPS90withAimpoint019.jpg

24kshooter
May 28, 2008, 09:26 AM
From you question I recommend you identify your goal (s) and get focused on it (them). As mentioned, you have niche rifles mixed with everyday workhorses. What are you trying to do ? I also assume you have a 30 cal battle rifle or two stuck away - if not I suggest you are asking the wrong question.

ny32182
May 28, 2008, 11:48 AM
If you are starting from zero, in my opinion, you should buy at least two high quality AR15's (a carbine and a rifle) before you even think about buying any of the current or proposed "toys" out there. That is the platform with millions and millions in circulation, with parts available from a huge number of companies, and will remain that way longer than anything else.

"The stock isn't right"? I don't understand. :confused: If you just don't like the ergonomics of the standard style carbine stock, there are a million good options out there for putting something on that is more to your liking. See the paragraph above. That is a total non-issue.

Once you are into the "toy" market, the XCR is peerless, and here is the kicker: You can actually buy it.

MarcusWendt
May 28, 2008, 12:18 PM
I toy with this same issue daily. For me it's between the 556 and the AR. These two are the most affordable for me. I am a huge fan of Sig and everything I hear about this rifle from actual owners is great.

On the other hand as numerous posters have suggested, for the price of...

AR parts are everywhere. In a real SHTF scenario you'd have the best chance of making repairs and or replacing your AR over any other weapon. You'd already be familiar with the system god forbid you had to pick one up from a fallen troop.

My heart wants a 556, but my brain tells me to get an AR.

I already own a M1A standard so I'm covered in .308

If I thought 556 rifles would be available aplenty I'd buy the 556 first, but I'm leaning more toward the AR now, and if I can, in time, I'll buy a 556.

Jason_G
May 28, 2008, 03:42 PM
It's very short/manueverable (26" OAL) and can be aimed/fired effectively w/one hand (5.56 rifles?)
It is very short, too short IMO, except for some very specific roles. Unless I knew I was going to be in cramped spaces, I'd pass. The PS90 makes me feel like I'm scrunched up when I bring it up to the shoulder. From a resting position, I can shoulder and bring up the sights of most full length rifles much faster than I can with the PS90. The addition of optics can make it even more cumbersome depending on whether they add height to the rifle. I think folks assume maneuverability because the thing is small, but IMO it is very cumbersome to aim compared to almost every standard battle rifle I've handled. Not knocking the PS90, it's size is perfect for what its intended role is, but it's a very specialized role, and the thing doesn't handle like a well balanced standard rifle does.

is easily fired from prone (5.56 rifles?)
Surely you aren't saying that a standard battle rifle can't be effectively used in the prone position are you? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[5.7] has mild muzzle blast and no muzzle flash (5.56 rifles?)
You can buy ammo that uses powder other than what's used in NATO surplus ammo and have little to no flash in pretty much any caliber. The blast thing is a definite trade-off. Less recoil usually equates to a less powerful round, so pick your poison.

Again not, knocking the PS90, just reiterating to the OP that it is a very specialized weapon for very specialized roles, and wouldn't make a very versatile gun IMO.

Jason

Tomac
May 28, 2008, 09:28 PM
1) It's not too short for me (I'm 6'1") and while I didn't care for bullpups until I first handled a PS90 I find it faster on-target than any other rifle I've handled and keeping the weight closer in towards the body reduces shooter fatigue. The shorter length does make it more manueverable in tight spaces.
2) The PS90 has no large magazine protruding under it thus making it easier to shoot from prone.
3) The PS90 has no muzzle flash regardless of factory ammo used (reloads are another thing altogether) so no special effort has to be made selecting ammo for that characteristic. As an experiment I discovered I could fire 10rds from the PS90 w/o hearing protection before I experience discomfort. Inside an enclosed space the muzzle blast from the PS90 would be far more tolerable than from an AR.
I agree it's a specialized weapon that's not for every person or every application. However, for my particular needs nothing else comes close.
Tomac

TexasRifleman
May 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
It's not too short for me, I find the PS90 ergonomics to be wonderful.

I find that when I go to the range or general varmint/critter shooting it's the first thing I grab.

50 rounds is really nice and I like the little bag that hangs underneath to catch my empty brass.

The sighting system isn't really that bad in my opinion, keeping in mind the intent of the rifle. I have the TL2 light/laser combo and that works great at night in the above mentioned varmint/critter role.

That said, the 5.7 is just too weak for reliable stopping power in a defense situation plain and simple. I think the round is great, I reload it and I shoot the heck out of it. I am not however naive enough to think that it is a good man stopper in it's current form.

But, it's one of the most just plain "fun to shoot" guns I've ever owned and if I had it to do over again I'd buy another without a second thought.

Jason_G
May 28, 2008, 09:42 PM
It's not too short for me (I'm 6'1") and while I didn't care for bullpups until I first handled a PS90 I find it faster on-target than any other rifle I've handled and keeping the weight closer in towards the body reduces shooter fatigue. The shorter length does make it more manueverable in tight spaces.
Maybe I'm just old school, being raised on hunting rifles, but the PS90 is just awkward to me, and I am a little shorter than you. Obviously different strokes for different folks.

The PS90 has no large magazine protruding under it thus making it easier to shoot from prone. I understand, but unless you are shooting high (i.e. out of spec) capacity magazines, most conventional battle rifles can be fired from prone without issue.

The PS90 has no muzzle flash regardless of factory ammo used (reloads are another thing altogether) so no special effort has to be made selecting ammo for that characteristic.
Isn't there only one supplier of 5.7 ammo out there? How much is a box of ammo? I should hope there is no flash.
As an experiment I discovered I could fire 10rds from the PS90 w/o hearing protection before I experience discomfort
Please don't do that to your ears again.
Inside an enclosed space the muzzle blast from the PS90 would be far more tolerable than from an AR.
Probably so.
However, for my particular needs nothing else comes close.
Well then you have the perfect rifle for you it seems, but most folks' needs would be quite different I'd assume. I wouldn't mind having one, but it would be a plinker/conversation piece, and IMO it's far too expensive for me to spend that much on a conversation piece. JMO, YMMV.

Jason

Tarvis
May 29, 2008, 11:11 AM
the 5.7 is just too weak for reliable stopping power

The P90's real power came when you placed 15 rounds on center mass firing full auto. It can be controlled one handed on full auto, so I'd imagine that staying on target with two is no problem. It's a trade off between muzzle jump and energy. For example, the 458 socom is the ultimate in short range energy; which is awesome until you fire it on full auto. In the video I watched, 10 rounds of 458 on full auto almost knocked the guy over.

To quote myself:
The P90's real power came when you placed 15 rounds on center mass firing full auto.
Someone could reply that the PS90 is not full auto and thus not capable of filling the roll the P90 does. However, if S ever does HTF, I don't think I'll be contemplating the chances of the ATF coming after me because I filed off the disconnecter on all my rifles.

TexasRifleman
May 29, 2008, 11:18 AM
I'll be contemplating the chances of the ATF coming after me because I filed off the disconnecter on all my rifles.

That won't make a PS90 even remotely close to full auto.

Take the trigger pack out and look at it. Not a chance. :)

mr.trooper
May 29, 2008, 12:38 PM
This is just me, but i would buy an MSAR first, then a GSG-5 :)

Tarvis
May 29, 2008, 01:54 PM
That won't make a PS90 even remotely close to full auto.


Never had the opportunity to look at the guts, so I dunno. You get the idea, stop killing my dreams :(

TexasRifleman
May 29, 2008, 01:56 PM
You get the idea, stop killing my dreams

LOL sorry. The guts are pretty bizarre in that thing though.

Girodin
May 29, 2008, 05:07 PM
Ammunition for the PS90 is always going to be rare and expensive compared to .223/5.56x45mm

You are correct about rarity but in quality ammo (not wolf which it seems so many ARs cant shoot) 1000 rds of 5.7x28 can be had for less than 1000 rounds of 5.56.

Now reloading may be a different ball game as it seems that the 5.7 may not be friendly to reloaders.

The PS90 is a very fun gun but its cost is inhibitive for some folks. Not only is it expensive mags are too. Like all guns it has trade offs and excels more in some areas than others.

I beilieve it is not appropriately compaired to ARs etc because they were made for very different roles.

It is a weapon that I find it very easy to put a lot of rounds on target very quickly with. It is not my main HD weapon but I wouldn't feel too bad if all I had was the PS90 with a topped off 50 round magazine.

In many ways it makes more sense to buy an AR before buying the PS90 but I dont think you would ever regret owing the PS90 either.

I would say the best thing to do is clearly lay out what you want/need and what are the priorities and then adress them as funds allow.

Tarvis
May 29, 2008, 07:38 PM
Whats the trigger pull like? Heavy and sloppy? Seems like there isn't a good way to move the trigger forward of the sear without incurring some friction.

TexasRifleman
May 29, 2008, 07:45 PM
Whats the trigger pull like? Heavy and sloppy?

Yep, not real great. Long take up and the break isn't very clean.

Now reloading may be a different ball game as it seems that the 5.7 may not be friendly to reloaders.

Actually it reloads pretty well. There is a coating on the brass that acts as a bit of a lubricant for the SMG and that coating comes off over several tumblings in corn cob media.

I have brass that's on it's 5th reload and it still works fine in my semi. I suspect the heat and speed of the SMG might require this coating more than the semi so it may not matter that it wears away.

Word around the 5.7 forums is that the handgun doesn't care at all, it's just the SMG/carbine that need the coating so if you have the handgun you could still reload easily even if the carbine needs the coating but I think the jury is still out on whether it even matters.

Over time I'm keeping track of it to see what happens but so far it's no biggie.

It's nice to reload financially anyway; small primers, not much powder, and cheap bullets.

Tarvis
May 29, 2008, 08:02 PM
Damnit. The more I think about the PS90 the more I want one. My problem is I won't buy anything unless it's a deal (partly why I got into building AR's) and the closest to a "deal" I've seen was $1600 which is 2 AR's and 40 magazines for me. I think I need to find a used one.

RockyMtnTactical
May 30, 2008, 05:19 AM
Ar15

Tomac
May 30, 2008, 07:56 AM
Damnit. The more I think about the PS90 the more I want one. My problem is I won't buy anything unless it's a deal (partly why I got into building AR's) and the closest to a "deal" I've seen was $1600 which is 2 AR's and 40 magazines for me. I think I need to find a used one.

I just purchased a new PS90 w/the black reticle USG ringsight for my son for a little over $1,600. Sold the ringsight in less than 30minutes for $450 (so price for sightless PS90 was appx $1,200) which was nearly enough to pay for the Aimpoint ML3 & TROS ultralow Aimpoint mount setup he wanted.
Tomac

shep854
May 30, 2008, 08:43 AM
Are we seriously discussing tools, or excuses to buy new toys? While the $1000+++ guns are awesome (and yes, I would like some of them myself), do they go bang any better than the $400-600 sticks? How many of use are really good enough to take advantage of whatever increased absolute accuracy the high-end offerings provide?

In reality, most of us are far better served buying a budget rifle, and investing the rest of the money saved on quality range time. I know that I'm a long way from wringing all the potential out of my SU-16.

Tarvis
May 30, 2008, 01:29 PM
Well, the PS90 isn't all the hype because it's super accurate and can kill a running yak at 1500 yards, it's cool because it holds 50 rounds in a standard mag and is super compact. Besides, it will be one of the first rifles banned, or at least the magazines will be. On top of that it is frickin cool.

STOP TRYING TO KILL MY DREAMS!!!



do they go bang any better than the $400-600 sticks?

As a matter of fact, yes they do.

shep854
May 30, 2008, 05:36 PM
Tarvis, Live the dream, man!!:)

The PS90 is waaay up there on the cool meter. I saw whatshisface with one on Stargate: SG-12, and it really looks sharp. It is very definitely on my "nice to have/wish I had one" list.

silentpoet
May 30, 2008, 10:13 PM
The reason I want one of the higher end carbines is that I might not be able to get one in the future. I am aware you can do alot with cheaper rifles/carbines, but they are not the end all be all of rifles. Let's face it it we basically have 3 democrats running for president. Ain't a one of them our friend. So while I will fight any ban, I will do my best to prepare for one as well. I am really hopeful that the coming supreme court decision might be very helpful and make all this talk of bans moot.

As for my choice, it really depends. I know what I want, but am not sure what I can swing. I also have to place it in the context of my overall plans. I mean I would also like to get a saiga 12 and another pistol or two. So I might have to choose say my second choice rifle to get the other stuff.

mr.trooper
May 30, 2008, 10:39 PM
The 17 HMR is intended for squirrels and gophers. No one sells it for self-defense

Taurus makes a snub-nosed revolver in .17 HMR, and American Arms sells their micro-revolvers in it as well.

The 5.7x28 cartridge can push a 55 grain solid copper hollow point at a fair velocity. While its not a battle rifle cartridge by any stretch, its a FAR cry from the 17 grain frangible bullets you see in the .17 HMR.

shep854
May 30, 2008, 10:54 PM
Silentpoet, I am with you. Hopefully, I will be able to pick up some of the guns being discussed. They are WAAAY cool!

That said, of the rifles I own, my "bug out rifle" would have to be my Kel-Tec. If it came to that, I would remove the bolts from my other rifles and hide or discard them, if I could not find a Good Guy to give them to.

Z-Michigan
May 31, 2008, 12:14 AM
Mr. Trooper, yes Taurus does make revolvers in .17 HMR and I think even .17 Mach II. And CDNN has been trying to sell them on clearance for over a year now. If they were a good idea, CDNN would have sold them all a while ago. Out of a snubbie I would put either .17 in the same category as .25 ACP as not very useful.

Anyway, that hardly matters. I think the point has been well made that 5.7x28mm is a lot more effective in a full auto P90 with AP ammo than in single shot mode with semi-neutered politically correct ammo. The angle to put 55gr FMJ in the round is interesting, but it's not offered from the factory, and what I've read about reloading this cartridge scares me off.

mr.trooper
May 31, 2008, 12:16 AM
Reload!

55gr Solid Copper X-bullet would do far more damage than Military AP anyway. ;)

Coronach
May 31, 2008, 01:25 PM
Are we seriously discussing tools, or excuses to buy new toys? While the $1000+++ guns are awesome (and yes, I would like some of them myself), do they go bang any better than the $400-600 sticks?Depends. Are we talking about your average casual shooter, or someone who seriously trains? For your average joe who hauls his AR out to the range once or twice a year and puts a hundred rounds or so through it, there is virtually no advantage to dropping $1600 on a top-end AR (or whatever) vs going with the used DPMS his buddy just put up for sale. However, when you start going to carbine classes, carrying the rifle on duty, or otherwise dumping 1k rounds in a weekend, multiple weekends per year, the wheat starts to separate from the chaff. How many of use are really good enough to take advantage of whatever increased absolute accuracy the high-end offerings provide? For the most part, they don't offer increased accuracy so much as increased durability, modularity and the ability to do nifty things that the base-line AR does not (switch barrels and calibers, fold buttstocks, etc).
In reality, most of us are far better served buying a budget rifle, and investing the rest of the money saved on quality range time.I don't disagree with this.

Mike

shep854
May 31, 2008, 02:59 PM
Coronach, thanks for that post. You amplified my thoughts perfectly. Are you a mind reader or something?:cool:

anapex
May 31, 2008, 08:26 PM
I'm not sure if it was mentioned already (I didn't see it). If you're still thinking about the FS2000 FN is having a promotion where if you buy one before Aug 21 or so you can send in for a free C-more sight.

Coronach
May 31, 2008, 09:53 PM
Coronach, thanks for that post. You amplified my thoughts perfectly. Are you a mind reader or something?Your lost car keys are beside the fridge, and yes, you really should call your mother. Now do me a favor and think about your credit card number and expiration date.

Mike ;)

shep854
May 31, 2008, 10:27 PM
Well, now I KNOW you're not a mind reader :D. That's a relief.;)

BrianB
May 31, 2008, 10:33 PM
That Masada sure looks interesting. Have to wait and see, though.

variablebinary
June 3, 2008, 03:26 AM
FN FS2000 vs PS90 vs Sig 556 vs AR vs Masada

I'd take the AR15 over any of them....

Masada isnt out, and we have no idea when we'll ever see it. It may look cool on Future weapons and in magazines, but few has any idea what the Masada is all about in the real world.

Riktoven
June 15, 2008, 03:17 PM
The Masada, with it's aesthetic similarities to the M-41A Pulse Rifle make it an instant desire.

That said, AUGs are the bee's knees if you don't mind a dirty cheek :-)

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