Would you trust your life to a .380?


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Orion8472
May 27, 2008, 11:54 AM
The question is, would you trust your life to the .380 caliber?

Interestingly, I have an F.I. Industries Model D in .380, my brother has a FEG 63 in Makarov, and we put each of those up next to a 9mm luger, and it is fun to see the millimeter difference in shell height for each one. Yet, is 2mm less room and a slightly lighter projectile all that less "potent" than a a 9X19?

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Uncle Alvah
May 27, 2008, 11:59 AM
I pondered buying a .380, but the availability of very compact 9mm's disuaded me.......

MaterDei
May 27, 2008, 11:59 AM
Would I trust my life to a .380. Heck yes. I'd trust it to a steak knife if I didn't have something better. Would I prefer to trust it to something that starts with a 4? Sure.

conw
May 27, 2008, 12:08 PM
Well, if you look at really "old school" ballistic thinking on rounds, no one was worried about "one shot stops." It was, and still is, all about shot placement and common sense (and practice). In that sense, a .380 is pretty decent - as long as you can hit the target. When even the .32 was introduced, it was thought of as powerful.

That, and the .22, and other "marginal" rounds have been used for a lot of self-defense over the years. In one sense someone who practices with a .380 to hit multiple times accurately and fast IS more deadly than someone who expects a super-duper one-shot knockdown stopperoo from their bigger caliber.

Me, I don't necessarily see the point of using the caliber when it's so much more expensive than 9mm and my 9mm is smaller than most .380s, and does offer better ballistics...but again, if you have it and had to use it, don't worry about the numbers.

Spenser
May 27, 2008, 12:32 PM
I've had the pleasure of working a couple of righteous self-defense shootings lately. One bad guy was one shot with a .45, the other with a .380. The wound tracks were about the same, as were the results. The aggressors rapidly assumed room temperature.

They'll do the job, as long as you hit what you're aiming at.

woad_yurt
May 27, 2008, 12:57 PM
Yup, I would and do trust my life to a .380. I don't know about hollowpoints; I use FMJ to be sure of sufficient penetration. I carry a P3AT 24/7.

BTW, isn't (or wasn't) .380 a fairly common police caliber in lots of places?

XDKingslayer
May 27, 2008, 01:29 PM
Yes I would. I already do.

EShell
May 27, 2008, 01:41 PM
I carry one myself.

It's as much about having anything at all (even a steak knife) vs not being able to carry anything big in hot weather. A .22 short in the pocket beats a .45 sitting home in the safe.

Would I rather have a 6" Model 29 with 180 JHPs? Yes. Could I conceal it in T-shirt weather? No.

Anna's Dad
May 27, 2008, 01:49 PM
Every day!

Ltlabner
May 27, 2008, 01:57 PM
As I've answered on a litney of "is .380 ok?" threads...

Yes.

It's the minimum I'd carry (my normal cary is a Glock 23), but I do carry a Beretta 85 from time to time and don't think about it for a second.

jocko
May 27, 2008, 01:57 PM
beats a rock all to hell. Carried one for over 3 years with confidence, but now my 24/7 is my kahr pm9. It can go 99% of the places my 380 went. I do think the 380 caliber is at the very low end of the power pole but proper placement has to be #1 with any caliber. a 50 caliber flying right by a person is not near as effective as a 380 in COM..

Lashlarue
May 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
My AMT backup was the original jammomatic with anything but ball ammo, so when it was my primary it was loaded with ball ammo. Took me forever to use up two boxes of jhp's at the range.

DougDubya
May 27, 2008, 02:02 PM
If it doesn't jam, and it fits my hand, yes.

RX-178
May 27, 2008, 02:05 PM
Yes.


I often trust my life to a NAA mini-revolver in .22lr in El Paso's oppressive summer temperatures.

jdc1244
May 27, 2008, 02:06 PM
A .380 works for me just fine.

presspuller
May 27, 2008, 02:10 PM
A .22 vent hole in a bad guy is gonna take a lot of the fight out of him.
Is it what I would want if I needed to vent said bad guy? Not really but its better than nothing.
The .380 is even better. I carry a 9mm but if I ever have to use it I am gonna wish it was a .44 mag.

legion3
May 27, 2008, 02:12 PM
BTW, isn't (or wasn't) .380 a fairly common police caliber in lots of places?


Yes and not just a cop round it was also a very common military round.

conw
May 27, 2008, 02:21 PM
Jocko wrote:

t can go 99% of the places my 380 went. I do think the 380 caliber is at the very low end of the power pole but proper placement has to be #1 with any caliber.
Exactly!

a 50 caliber flying right by a person is not near as effective as a 380 in COM.

That depends on whether the .50 ricochets...

tinygnat219
May 27, 2008, 02:22 PM
I carry one as a BUG, in addition to my S&W 3913 9MM pistol. Would I carry one as my sole gun? Well, I did for a bit, but discovered that compact 9MM pistols are more fun to shoot.

fletcher
May 27, 2008, 02:24 PM
I carry .32 more than anything else, so I'd certainly trust .380. I'll only use FMJ, though.

DrLaw
May 27, 2008, 02:25 PM
yes.:D

Baneblade
May 27, 2008, 02:29 PM
Shot placement is everything. My LEO partner at work killed a knife weilding suspect with a 380. Single shot to the chest with his off-duty gun.

I regularly carry a Kel-tec P3-AT off duty and I feel that as a defensive weapon it is adequate.

Statistics still show that the 22 LR has killed more people in the USA than any other caliber.

Orion8472
May 27, 2008, 02:45 PM
Why do some of you say that you'd only use FMJ? Wouldn't a Golden Saber be a better choice?

Also, I may be keeping my F.I. .380 as a "collectors piece", so what other small .380 would you suggest? I know there are a few out there like the CZ83, Bersa Thunder, and the like. What would be a good gun to get that would cycle reliably with FMJ or HPs, and that would be okay riding in a pocket?

ScottyT
May 27, 2008, 02:50 PM
My wife trusts her life to a .380, and I trust it enough to have bought the gun for her.

fletcher
May 27, 2008, 02:51 PM
Why do some of you say that you'd only use FMJ?

First, a good reference: http://www.brassfetcher.com


Second, the explanation:
For the smaller (lighter weight) rounds, penetration is a big issue. While JHPs are your ideal round, they may not do much in the way of damaging organs with the light-weight projectiles as they penetrate less (might not even make it to the heart/lungs/etc). To help ensure that a hole of some size makes it to the internal organs, many use better-penetrating FMJ.


Personally, I carry a Kel-Tec P32 in the pocket loaded with plain white-box FMJ.

Orion8472
May 27, 2008, 03:48 PM
Maybe I'll just stick with the 9mm for carry. :scrutiny:

I'll just have to save up a little extra for that EMP! :D

Anonymous Coward
May 27, 2008, 04:12 PM
The question is, would you trust your life to the .380 caliber?


No. It's better than nothing, but I'd expect to get hurt if I drew it out. Maybe the other guy will die in a hospital, but I might be right there next to him.

Yet, is 2mm less room and a slightly lighter projectile all that less "potent" than a a 9X19?


Uh, yeah.

Spenser
May 27, 2008, 04:59 PM
As far as other .380's, I'm all about the Sig 232 and Walther PPk. The PPK and PPK/S's are going to have their detractors, but I've always liked mine.

I'm really eager to try a Ruger LCP.

searcher451
May 27, 2008, 05:04 PM
I carry a Walther PPK/S daily. Great gun with a more-than-sufficient round.

ImARugerFan
May 27, 2008, 05:09 PM
I trust my life to the fact that I will likely never need to have a gun on me.

thunder173
May 27, 2008, 05:15 PM
I use a KelTec P3AT when nothing else can be carried,...wife uses the Bersa Thunder .380. I prefer a .45 ACP myself,...but yes,...I do trust the .380 for up close and personal...

camper
May 27, 2008, 05:15 PM
Yes, NAA Guardian 380 daily.

MaterDei
May 27, 2008, 05:39 PM
Yet, is 2mm less room and a slightly lighter projectile all that less "potent" than a a 9X19?

Size doesn't always matter so much. The terminal ballistics on a 9mm is better vs. a 380 than the size difference might indicate.

Anonymous Coward
May 27, 2008, 06:34 PM
I carry a Walther PPK/S daily. Great gun with a more-than-sufficient round.


Yeah, as long as you don't plan on shooting anyone.

ashtxsniper
May 27, 2008, 06:59 PM
I have carried one before and prefer bigger. Am I confident with a 380 acp, not really but with 7 of them coming at you things change a little. Nowdays I usually dont carry anything unless it at least breaks the 400 fpe level and prefer something that breaks the 500 fpe level.

McCall911
May 27, 2008, 07:08 PM
Yes. I have trusted, and still would trust my life to a .380.

Anonymous Coward
May 27, 2008, 07:10 PM
hmm.

makarovnik
May 27, 2008, 08:23 PM
Every day.

don95sml
May 27, 2008, 09:01 PM
fletcher said:
First, a good reference: http://www.brassfetcher.com
Second, the explanation:
For the smaller (lighter weight) rounds, penetration is a big issue. While JHPs are your ideal round, they may not do much in the way of damaging organs with the light-weight projectiles as they penetrate less (might not even make it to the heart/lungs/etc). To help ensure that a hole of some size makes it to the internal organs, many use better-penetrating FMJ.
I use the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok Personal Defense ammo, which is a hollow point. On the brassfetcher.com reference site that round in the test gun penetrated 12 to 12.5" of ballistic gelatin and expanded to .469" diameter - that's a pretty big hole! The test gun was a Kel-Tec with a 2.75" barrel, whereas I carry a SIG P230 with a 3.6" barrel. That should increase the velocity and provide even better performance. Needless to say, I don't feel undergunned.

jhco
May 27, 2008, 09:06 PM
yes when i need to

MICHAEL T
May 27, 2008, 09:10 PM
Bersa Thunder and Corbon DPX HP .

wristtwister
May 27, 2008, 09:11 PM
but there's probably a reason that the Mossad used to use Beretta .380's as their "gun of choice".

.380's are also known as "9mm short" rounds, and they've more than proved themselves over the years... so while there are bigger rounds out there, if you're any kind of a shot, a .380 would probably get the job done for you.

I carry an SR-9 or model 92FS, but more for the magazine capacity than the caliber. I'd feel perfectly comfortable if I could find a .380 that carried 18 rounds, but I'd probably go broke shooting it, considering the difference in price for the ammo. I bought 500 rounds of both 9mm and .380 at the last gun show. The 9mm was $97.50, the .380 was $122.50, so it's not only a bigger round, it's cheaper to shoot and the guns have higher magazine capacities. Both my .380's only carry 7 round magazines.

I could probably go to a CZ .380 and get more in the handle, but there again, it's "spend more money" to get the same thing. I really would like to see a high-capacity .380 on the market, however, because once the novelty wore off, they'd start trading in the used gun market, and I wouldn't have to sell the farm to get one. I'd settle for a high-capacity makarov, but I haven't found one available when I had bucks, but the 9mm mak is one of my favorite guns... and the .380 is very close in how it shoots as well.

When I go "big bore carry", I carry S&W model 4006 w/ 11 round clips... but I'd love to have a high capacity .380 to take to the dance. Unless you're shooting at body armor, a .380 will work every time.

WT

Northalius
May 27, 2008, 09:23 PM
The question is, would you trust your life to the .380 caliber?

Of course... when fired from a 15+ inch barrel, no problem.

:D :neener:

But seriously, would I choose to carry only that caliber as my primary and ONLY one? Nope. I prefer bigger, faster, heavier loads, like DoubleTap 10mm from a G29 and/or G20. That's good power, simplicity, durability, reliability AND capacity, all in one. Don't know what more one could as for. ;)

Would I carry a .380 mousegun? Maybe as a 3rd pistol, behind another more powerful backup pistol (like a G33 in .357 SIG). :D

P.S. before we get into the whole "shot placement" type argument, and which I agree with to an extent: Perfect shot placement isn't always going to be available... yes, even with a lot of practice. The world is very random and chaotic like that, to where you can practice so much, it'll still turn out different than you expected. So, with perfect shot placement being equal: the bigger, heavier, faster bullet wins, hands down. With not-so-perfect shot placement being equal: the bigger, faster, heavier bullet STILL wins hands down.

It's that plain, and that simple. You NEED every seemingly tiny advantage in a life and death situation! Don't skimp on "stopping power" (it does exist, just not in "magic-bullet form," as others'd like to believe), just for more "physical comfort" in carrying a tiny gun. You can dress around bigger guns, and get used to carrying them. DO IT!

MCgunner
May 27, 2008, 09:25 PM
Do if I HAVE to, but my little 9mm Kel Tec is small enough that I rarely feel the need. I just worry about penetration and adequate wound channel with the little pip squeek. I consider it barely adequate. JMHO, though. Folks carry .32s, even .22s, but I prefer more. I sure wouldn't wanna be shot with one, before anyone asks. :D

usp9
May 27, 2008, 09:39 PM
Yes.
I do, as well as .32acp when carrying my pocket gun.

2nd 41
May 27, 2008, 09:40 PM
My house gun is a SigSauer 230sl

ceadermtnboy
May 27, 2008, 09:51 PM
I think one would have to ponder this question. Would you deliberately pick a 380 over a 9mm, 40, or 45 caliber if you knew you would have to protect yourself or family from another armed individual that same day? For me the confidence starts to fade below 9mm.

Jim PHL
May 27, 2008, 10:43 PM
I had a Kel-Tec .380. Nothing carries more easily, I'm sure. Lots of people on this and other boards seemed to have reliability problems with them but mine always ran 100%. I did sell it, though, as I decided not to trust anything less than a .38 special for a carry gun. I feel more confident with a heavier load. When I carried the .380, I carried ball rather than JHP. My S+W 342 carries very easily in my pocket and I'd rather have a treasury load than any .380 offering.

Marshall
May 27, 2008, 11:00 PM
I would rather trust my life to something larger and more powerful but yes, I would trust my life to a .380 and carry one once in a while.

Daemon688
May 27, 2008, 11:11 PM
I do........when I'm at work. In fact that's exactly the reason why I got a p3at, deep concealment.

cookekdjr
May 27, 2008, 11:59 PM
I find myself in alot of situations where I can't carry thr .40 cal I usually have with me. For those situations, I carry a .380 or .32 of some sort.
-David

Maia007
May 28, 2008, 12:30 AM
Since the 70's, I've carried either a (German) Walther PP or a Remington 51. Both are finely made, exceptionally reliable pistols that I can shoot quite well. The ease of carry, particularly pocket carry, is my primary criteria. I am always more comfortable knowing I can discreetly put my hand on the weapon inside a pocket rather than having to draw from the belt. So the .380 fit the need. While I have a J frame .38, I am just not as comfortable with it, nor as skilled in its use.

These days I am experimenting around with 9 mm's of similar size/weight. I wasn't sure that the polymers were here to stay and would ultimately prove themselves out.

Shade00
May 28, 2008, 12:36 AM
My favorite gun is my PPK/S with Corbon Powr'ball. I think the .380 is perfectly adequate. I practice with my PPK/S and feel comfortable that I could put as many of my 7 shots into the kill zone as necessary. Would I feel better with 9mm? Well... I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. I'd love to have a shotgun or an AR, but I'm limited by size. One day I might get a Kahr 9mm, but until, .380 will do.

choochboost
May 28, 2008, 02:57 AM
Yes, with FMJ.

Zoogster
May 28, 2008, 03:14 AM
With FMJ and really good shot placement.
Yet, is 2mm less room and a slightly lighter projectile all that less "potent" than a a 9X19?
A 9x19 is far more effective because it has enough energy to work well with expanding projectiles. High expansion on a .380 might keep it from penetrating enough.

Eightball
May 28, 2008, 03:18 AM
Planning on picking up a .380 for discreet carry, so to answer your question--I plan to.

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 03:34 AM
When I was looking for a pocketable pistol to complement my ordinary full size carry (a .40) I asked myself that same question....

I tried several guns in my pockets and, eventually, I got a Kel-Tec P-11 9 mm.

Sure some of the mini .380s are a bit smaller but my P-11 fits very well already with my clothing style....I do not plan to go around in a speedo anyway:neener::neener:

So I asked myself: Why I should go below the 9 mm power level for the same "concelability" factor and basically the same price?? And I can carry 12+1 in my P-11

I wish they still made the P-40 (retired because frequent malfunctions) so I would not need different ammo from my full size carry

Sure I could have get a Kahr in .40 but I didn't want to spend $600+ for a pocket backup polymer gun.

Some people like the .45 pocketable Kahrs, but IMHO they kick and bark too much and, if I have to limit myself to 5 shots, I would rather get a snubnose .357 small revolver in my pocket for total unquestioned reliability.

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 03:53 AM
9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense

By Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times.

"If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm."

Entire article and test results at:

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

McCall911
May 28, 2008, 04:12 AM
By Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times.

"If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm."


I doubt whether the .380 is going to go obsolete just because of what one gun writer says. The fact is, there are some people who don't shoot a 9mm comfortably due to disability, physical limitations, or just plain flinching. The .380 just may be the better choice for these people.

And the fact remains that the .380 has proven itself to be an effective self-defense cartridge. It's not an ICBM but it works for its purpose.

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 05:36 AM
Posted by McCall911:
And the fact remains that the .380 has proven itself to be an effective self-defense cartridge.

Your statement is false.

The .380 was phased out several decades ago as a duty weapon. Even in the "old days", the cartridge never saw much use in the U.S.

There's probably not a unit or agency on either continent that currently issues the .380 as a primary carry sidearm.

The Euros upgraded to the 9mm long ago, and in the U.S. even the 9mm is being phased out in favor of the more powerful .40 S&W.

The .380 is NOT an effective self-defense cartridge. Never was, never will be.

jocko
May 28, 2008, 05:44 AM
I thought the kahr pm45 was 6 shot??????

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 10:21 AM
I thought the kahr pm45 was 6 shot??????

Yes, sorry, the PM is 5 + 1

I still would prefer a .357 snubnose...:D:D

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 10:28 AM
Your statement is false.

The .380 was phased out several decades ago as a duty weapon. Even in the "old days", the cartridge never saw much use in the U.S.

There's probably not a unit or agency on either continent that currently issues the .380 as a primary carry sidearm.

The Euros upgraded to the 9mm long ago, and in the U.S. even the 9mm is being phased out in favor of the more powerful .40 S&W.

The .380 is NOT an effective self-defense cartridge. Never was, never will be.

It is, somewhat, true.
I'm originally from Europe (Italy) where the Beretta 34 in .380 (9 mm corto in Italian) was the standard Police and Armed Forces sidearm till the end of the 70's and, in some cases, very beginning of the 80's.

The pistol was often bad mouthed because of its marginal stopping power....it had several good aspects, reliability, accuracy, easy maintenance, relative small size which was good for concealement for plainclothing police work.....but its nickname was "peashooter" for a reason..

And not all major European armed forces used .380 pistols anyway.

XDKingslayer
May 28, 2008, 10:48 AM
The .380 is NOT an effective self-defense cartridge. Never was, never will be.

Can I shoot you with one to prove your point?

Fish828
May 28, 2008, 11:00 AM
I do. And my carry weapon is proof of that. Plus, the blowback design give you a little better accuracy coming from a small carry pistol.

fletcher
May 28, 2008, 11:08 AM
9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense

By Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times.

"If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm."

Entire article and test results at:

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

The conclusion isn't that great. It's a big "duh" that in the same size package, take 9mm over .380. However, as affordable 9mm pocket pistols comparable in size to the P3AT, LCP, P32, and so forth are not available, .380 will continue to have a place. This article completely skipped over .380's niche, and just compared medium-frame/subcompact pistols, which do have readily available and inexpensive offerings in 9mm.

Just to compare their test pistol, the PT111, in size to the P3AT:
PT111:
Length: 6.125"
Width: 1.125"
Height: 5.125"

P3AT:
Length : 5.2"
Width : .77"
Height : 3.5"

That's a pretty big difference. I didn't choose my P32 because of the caliber, and I'm sure most people with .32s and .380s didn't either. They chose the platform, and took the best caliber available.

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 11:17 AM
The conclusion isn't that great. It's a big "duh" that in the same size package, take 9mm over .380. However, as affordable 9mm pocket pistols comparable in size to the P3AT, LCP, P32, and so forth are not available, .380 will continue to have a place.


It is true, because of the blowback design, a .380 pistol can "shrink" a little bit more than a 9 mm....the fact is do you really need that extra "shrinkage" for conceability?? When you need anything smaller than a Kel-Tec PF-9??? (which you can buy for $250 or less, on par with the small quality .380 and .32 ACP out there)
As I said before, unless you plan to go around in a speedo :neener::neener::D:D

On top of that consider that the .380 ammo is more expensive, in general, than 9 mm....

Yesterday I was walking my dog around a lake with a pair of light shorts and a t-shirt with my P-11 in my pocket....no more "external print" than a cell phone...

fletcher
May 28, 2008, 11:22 AM
the fact is do you really need that extra "shrinkage" for conceability??

Yes, I do. In a pocket holster, a P32 is the largest thing I can carry. Any larger will either look suspicious/absurd, or will be so large in the pocket that I won't have enough room to wrap my hand around it quickly for the draw. I have held/tried/fired a PF9, and it was too big. When I'm afforded the luxury of being able to carry a larger pistol, I go to 9x18 or 9mm. But for the purpose(s) I carry the P32, it's as large as I can go.

Even the PF9 is a good bit larger than the P3AT: 0.65" longer, 0.8" higher (the most critical dimension), 0.11" wider.

DawgFvr
May 28, 2008, 11:38 AM
There is no doubt that the 9mm is a far superior to the .380. The OP's original question, however, was, "would you trust your life to the .380 caliber?"

I, for one, have carried the P3AT in my pocket when I was unable to pocket carry my 642 or in situtations where I did not wish to carry a larger caliber IWB/OWB, e.g., sunday-go-to-meeting-suit, tuxedo, etc. If I did not trust my life to it...I wouldn't carry it...eh? One must always be prepared to back up a side arm with fists, blades or running shoes. Why? Because all side arms are extensions of your fist...all are poor human stoppers.

OBTW....the .380 makes lots of noise which can cover your retreat to a better weapon.

Anonymous Coward
May 28, 2008, 11:39 AM
Whatever makes you "feel" protected.

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 12:38 PM
Posted by saturno
It is, somewhat, true.
I'm originally from Europe (Italy) where the Beretta 34 in .380 (9 mm corto in Italian) was the standard Police and Armed Forces sidearm till the end of the 70's and, in some cases, very beginning of the 80's.

The pistol was often bad mouthed because of its marginal stopping power....it had several good aspects, reliability, accuracy, easy maintenance, relative small size which was good for concealement for plainclothing police work.....but its nickname was "peashooter" for a reason..

And not all major European armed forces used .380 pistols anyway.

The statements in my previous post are completely true, and I'm well aware that not all major European armed forces used the .380.

However, it saw significant use in law enforcement in a number of European countries, because the bureaucrats liked it for the "good" aspects you mentioned. However, the officers in the streets weren't impressed with it---giving it derogatory and very appropriate nicknames like "peashooter".

Posted by saturno
On top of that consider that the .380 ammo is more expensive, in general, than 9 mm....

A good point, and very true. .380 ammo is noticeably more expensive. Somebody who wishes to use a puny .380 for self-defense would need to practice frequently with it. Thus in a relatively short time, the .380 would actually turn out to be the more expensive weapon. And if you shoot a lot, in the long run it would turn out to be considerably more expensive than a 9mm.

SuperNaut
May 28, 2008, 12:59 PM
I'm not a good enough shot to trust a .380.

I loved my PPK/S, but after shooting the 2x4 frame of a target stand I made, and the FMJ's failed to penetrate, well I had to rethink a bit.

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 01:14 PM
Posted by DawgFvr:
There is no doubt that the 9mm is a far superior to the .380. The OP's original question, however, was,

"would you trust your life to the .380 caliber?"

No, I absolutely would not trust my life to an anemic cartridge like the .380. I wouldn't even use one as a backup.

Posted by DawgFvr:
Because all side arms are extensions of your fist...all are poor human stoppers.

Solid upper torso hits from large caliber handgun cartridges like the .45 ACP are actually excellent "human stoppers". Certainly not 100% reliability, but not far from it.

Since rifles and shotguns cannot be concealed on your person, large caliber handguns in popular defensive cartridges like the .45 ACP, .40 S&W etc., are far and away the best thing available.

DougDubya
May 28, 2008, 01:18 PM
Defensory, just let us fools who like the .380 die when our chosen caliber (or backup caliber) fails and quit beating the drum of "no caliber unless it starts with 4."

You've said your piece, the .380 is only good for getting yourself murdered. Move on.

Daemon688
May 28, 2008, 01:33 PM
It is true, because of the blowback design, a .380 pistol can "shrink" a little bit more than a 9 mm....the fact is do you really need that extra "shrinkage" for conceability?? When you need anything smaller than a Kel-Tec PF-9???

When you can get fired. When the option is carry the smallest gun possible or none at all, I'll choose the gun. Thanks. Like another poster said earlier, would you like to stand in front of me and let me shoot a .380 at you to prove your point?

If I'm going to be carrying a pistol the size of the PF-9, I might as well carry my .40. Then maybe I can deride you for your choice in the puny 9mm?

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 01:37 PM
Posted by DougDubya:
Defensory, just let us fools who like the .380 die when our chosen caliber (or backup caliber) fails and quit beating the drum of "no caliber unless it starts with 4." You've said your piece, the .380 is only good for getting yourself murdered. Move on.

I don't see "Moderator" or "Administrator" under your screenname. It's not your place to bully members and tell them to "Move on".

My posts in this thread have been completely on topic, and within the bounds of all forum rules.

Have a nice day! :neener:

SuperNaut
May 28, 2008, 01:37 PM
Like another poster said earlier, would you like to stand in front of me and let me shoot a .380 at you to prove your point?

This keeps getting repeated and sorry but, it's not the slightest bit compelling.

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a slingshot, bb-gun, or loogie either, so what have we proven?

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 01:46 PM
Posted by SuperNaut:
This keeps getting repeated and sorry but, it's not the slightest bit compelling.

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a slingshot, bb-gun, or loogie either, so what have we proven?

They've proven their poor logic.

I agree with you completely.

I'm not going to sit there and let somebody shoot me with even a CO2 powered BB pistol, which proves only that I have common sense. It does NOTHING to establish a BB pistol as an "effective" man stopper.

Ghostrider_23
May 28, 2008, 01:58 PM
Yes a 380 will do the job as long as you do your job and hopefully you will never need to find out. When did we as people get so caught up in size???
I went to the U-Haul the other day and they said I need an Excursion to tow a bicycle trailer. I exaggerate, but people perception of what will work and what won't are sadly based on B.S.

The Tourist
May 28, 2008, 01:59 PM
I think the debate is backwards. However the premise is valid.

I have already placed my trust in a .380 ACP, I went out and made a purchase and utilize that firearm.

The true debate should be, "Do you trust your life in attacking me?"

In other words, have you done your homework? Have you read gun magazines on this topic, especially the volatile ones on "mouse guns"?

Do you reload? Have you perused energy tables and bullet weights? To that end, what bullet do you use?

Then there is the manner and structure of the man holding the .380 ACP. Do you believe that within your experience, talents and mindset that you could defeat him when facing this pistol?

I think it's one thing to ventilate a block of ballistic gelatin. However I believe it is quite another argument in facing the actual weapon.

Pilot
May 28, 2008, 02:06 PM
I do. I often carry the elegant and reliable Beretta M85FS and feel well armed.

fletcher
May 28, 2008, 02:09 PM
They've proven their poor logic.

It's not saying much when your own arguments consisted of a poor article that didn't prove anything other than the obvious (9mm is superior in penetration and wound channel to .380? Whodathunkit?), and didn't address individual advantages/disadvantages of the rounds and their respective platforms.

It does NOTHING to establish a BB pistol as an "effective" man stopper.
What that does prove is that there is a large deterrent factor to even producing a weapon, and that's the first step. It's better than nothing, and the possibility of being hit with a projectile certainly prevents you from wanting to stand in front of it, yes?

Nobody here is saying to carry a full-size .380 as your main carry. However, there are many people that have no option but to carry a .380. If you could physically not carry anything larger than a Kel-Tec, would you just rather carry nothing than the "anemic" .380? While the validity of the H&S(?) OSS statistics is up for debate, even they place good .380ACP rounds ~70%. I'd trust a mag full of that COM. Even if someone does want to carry a larger .380 as a main carry, a volley of good ammunition would certainly ruin someone's day, even without the magical instant-stop.

SuperNaut
May 28, 2008, 02:14 PM
Good reply, now we are getting past the head-butting.

Pilot
May 28, 2008, 02:16 PM
What that does prove is that there is a large deterrent factor to even producing a weapon, and that's the first step. It's better than nothing, and the possibility of being hit with a projectile certainly prevents you from wanting to stand in front of it, yes?

EXACTLY!

The Tourist
May 28, 2008, 02:22 PM
Good reply, now we are getting past the head-butting.

And that should always be our goal. The problem is that sometimes a "Ford vs. Chevy" debate strikes a chord with serious owners.

What I would rather see is some reasoning or testing to prove (or disprove) a position which protects the members.

Let me present that side of the debate with something silly.

Suppose for this debate we present .380 ACP success rates from the early 1900's to a comparison of rates in our more modern times. At the turn of that century, a .380 stopped people 75% of the time.

But for our mythical argument, let's suppose that our obesity rates and our muscle structure from gym activity now renders that same .380 ACP ony 50% effective.

Well, I'd like to know that. I carry/use that firearm, and if you know something that is going to keep me alive, I'd like to hear your perspective.

So if a thread is called, ".380 No Longer Effective," granted, some folks will complain. But if there's good info, we should read it.

MCgunner
May 28, 2008, 03:02 PM
Some people like the .45 pocketable Kahrs, but IMHO they kick and bark too much and, if I have to limit myself to 5 shots, I would rather get a snubnose .357 small revolver in my pocket for total unquestioned reliability.

I think you're better off with the P11 than either. 13 rounds of +P 9 in a pocket, light, small, accurate, and controllable. You just can't beat that IMHO with anything else short of maybe a P40 or the Kahr 40, but I still like the subcompact 9s.

Dain Bramage
May 28, 2008, 03:19 PM
I would never trust my life to a .380, and I refuse to own any.

Now a 9x18 mm, that's a man's gun! I have three of those. :D

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 03:20 PM
If I'm going to be carrying a pistol the size of the PF-9, I might as well carry my .40. Then maybe I can deride you for your choice in the puny 9mm?

I prefer a .40 to a 9 mm myself but, as I said before, the only .40 in the market with the same size of a PF-9 is the Kahr and I'm not going to spend $600+ for a backup polymer gun IMHO...I wish Kel-Tec did not discontinued the P-40 (If it was working...evidently it wasn't :D:D:D).

By the way, I'm not deriding anybody for carrying a .380..I had the same dilemma myself end evetually I opted for the 9 mm so I was just offering my experience and opinion on the subject.....a gun, even a 22, is better than no gun..

On a light note, actually with your .40 you could not "deride" me for choosing a 9 mm more than someone else carrying a 9 mm could "deride" a .380...:neener::neener::D:D...there is significantly more difference in power between a .380 and a 9 than between a 9 and a 40....

Orion8472
May 28, 2008, 03:36 PM
Would you just LOOK at my can opener. Worm guts all over it! :uhoh:

saturno_v
May 28, 2008, 03:38 PM
Would you just LOOK at my can opener. Worm guts all over it!

Yeah, you stirred the pot quite a bit....:eek::D

McCall911
May 28, 2008, 03:39 PM
Your statement is false.


:confused:

Please point out in my post my mention of anything about the police or the military.

And, while you're at it, please cite sources, for the sake of those paying any attention to you, that might indicate that the .380 is not used as a self-defense round.

Sorry, but your statement is false.

McCall911
May 28, 2008, 03:49 PM
Would you just LOOK at my can opener. Worm guts all over it!

Nah. Some people just can't tolerate another opinion beside their own.

putteral
May 28, 2008, 04:30 PM
I carry my Walther PPK/S a lot depends on the weather and my mood. I trust the gun knowing I can hit what I shoot at.

The Bushmaster
May 28, 2008, 04:34 PM
Over having a stick or a knife? Yes...

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 04:36 PM
It's not saying much when your own arguments consisted of a poor article that didn't prove anything other than the obvious (9mm is superior in penetration and wound channel to .380? Whodathunkit?), and didn't address individual advantages/disadvantages of the rounds and their respective platforms.

PROVE it's a poor article. It doesn't agree with your point of view and reductio ad absurdum argumentation, so you reject it without giving any legitimate arguments as to why it's "poor". YOUR statements "didn't prove anything" either! :D

There are NO self-defense advantages to the .380, in comparison with the 9mm. Today's subcompact 9mm's are virtually as small and light as the .380, and the .380 ammo is noticeably MORE expensive.

What that does prove is that there is a large deterrent factor to even producing a weapon, and that's the first step.

We were CLEARLY talking about STOPPING POWER. So please stop with the weak straw man arguments that sidestep what was REALLY being discussed.

The hard fact is, THOUSANDS of people a year have to actually FIRE their weapon in self-defense. So if you wish to discuss "deterrence", you're in the wrong thread.

It's better than nothing, and the possibility of being hit with a projectile certainly prevents you from wanting to stand in front of it, yes?

A sling shot is better than nothing, and I wouldn't stand in front of it either. However, NOTHING you've said has ANY bearing on the STOPPING POWER ability of the .380.

Nobody here is saying to carry a full-size .380 as your main carry.

SEVERAL people in this thread have stated they would be comfortable carrying it as their only weapon. Regardless of what you have stashed away at your home, if you're out in public and all you have on you is a .380---it IS your main carry at that point in time.

However, there are many people that have no option but to carry a .380. If you could physically not carry anything larger than a Kel-Tec, would you just rather carry nothing than the "anemic" .380?

Kel-Tec makes a 9mm that weighs only about 4 OUNCES more than their .380, is only about 2/3 of ONE inch longer, and about ONE TENTH of an inch wider.

If that's just "too much" for you or anybody else you know, I strongly suggest all of you promptly commit yourself to an assisted living center. My mother is about eighty years old, with arthritic hands and two replaced knees, and I assure you FOUR OUNCES and a combined length/width difference of LESS than one inch---would not adversely affect her in the LEAST.

While the validity of the H&S(?) OSS statistics is up for debate, even they place good .380ACP rounds ~70%. I'd trust a mag full of that COM.

If you think your bogus statistics "prove" that the .380 provides 70% one shot stopping power, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell you CHEAP.

Even if someone does want to carry a larger .380 as a main carry, a volley of good ammunition would certainly ruin someone's day, even without the magical instant-stop.

In a shooting situation, you CANNOT count on being able to fire a "volley" of shots at someone. And what about a home invasion or parking lot ambush where there are three or four armed perps, and firing a "volley" at just one of them will simply get you killed by the others?

Defensory
May 28, 2008, 04:53 PM
Posted by McCall911:
And the fact remains that the .380 has proven itself to be an effective self-defense cartridge.

Your baseless and undocumented proclamation is meaningless.

Prove it.

The burden of proof is on you.

Posted by McCall911
Nah. Some people just can't tolerate another opinion beside their own.

You must be talking about yourself, since I welcome debate and am calmly awaiting your thus far non-existent documentation. Please forgive me if I don't hold my breath. :evil:

dogngun
May 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
I don't like .380's much-I have a .32 ACP in my pocket right now, though.

Shot placement, pull trigger till threat is stopped. The end.

mark

fletcher
May 28, 2008, 04:57 PM
We were CLEARLY talking about STOPPING POWER. So please stop with the weak straw man arguments that sidestep what was REALLY being discussed.
You asked if those statements proved anything, and I explained that they did. Nothing straw-man about it. I seem to recall someone saying "what have we proven"...

PROVE it's a poor article
The article's comparison of 9mm vs .380 power out of the same mid-sized pistol has no relevance to the actual issue, as it only takes into account power, and not platform options. Done. He says, and I quote, "Which means the choice is really between the capabilities of the cartridges, not the guns." with regards to the similarities between the platforms. This is blatantly not true. For larger guns, yes. When you're looking for something really small, not at all.

If you think your bogus statistics "prove" that the .380 provides 70% one shot stopping power, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll sell you CHEAP.
You clearly failed to read the whole sentence, which you quoted. Please go look at those stats if you want to even say anything about them.

And still, you have nothing to say about 9mm's superiority over .380 other than pure power, which is a "duh". There are MAJOR platform differences between the two, which is more of a factor of choice between the calibers than power. Everything you're arguing about the weakness goes out the window once you acknowledge that.

Kel-Tec makes a 9mm that weighs only about 4 OUNCES more than their .380,
Weight != Size. It's a lot easier to carry a heavy, solid metal NAA guardian than the PF-9, which is substantially larger. Weight is of trivial issue for pocket carry.


If that's just "too much" for you or anybody else you know, I strongly suggest all of you promptly commit yourself to an assisted living center.
I find it very funny that you have yet to present any real information, but you're laying on the insults thick.


And what about a home invasion or parking lot ambush where there are three or four armed perps, and firing a "volley" at just one of them will simply get you killed by the others?
In which case it won't matter what you have, so this is also completely irrelevant to the caliber, which is the issue at hand, not ambushes. To quote you back, " So please stop with the weak straw man arguments that sidestep what was REALLY being discussed. "


Prove it.

The burden of proof is on you.
You can't even prove that it's not, you can only prove that 9mm is better than .380. Prove to me that I will not be able to empty a mag. Prove to me that .380 cannot stop someone. The only reference you still have is that one article, and the only thing you've been arguing the entire time is that 9mm > .380. We know. That's old news. Just because .380 isn't as good as 9mm/.40/.45 doesn't mean it's worthless.



Oh, and IBTL. This thread has probably degenerated beyond saving.

Ltlabner
May 28, 2008, 05:04 PM
Oh joy....another caliber debate devolving into a peeing contest.

Face it Flecther. It's been proven that .380 is totally useless and being shot by it would actually make you feal better. You'll never win.

fletcher
May 28, 2008, 05:06 PM
It's been proven that .380 is totally useless and being shot by it would actually make you feal better
Well, now that you put it that way ;)

Ala Dan
May 28, 2008, 05:08 PM
currently to the likes of a Bersa Thunder, KEL-TEC P3AT, and a Walther PPK.

Jason_G
May 28, 2008, 05:47 PM
Technology has increased the performance of self defense ammo by leaps and bounds over the past years. At one time, I would've ranked the .380 among notoriously anemic rounds like the .25 ACP, but with these recent advents in ammo performance, I would feel OK with a .380 sidearm. That being said, I'd feel better with a .45 ;)

Jason

McCall911
May 28, 2008, 05:58 PM
I find it very funny that you have yet to present any real information, but you're laying on the insults thick.


<psst>

I think that's called trolling.

:D

Mad Magyar
May 28, 2008, 06:03 PM
By Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times.

He's already "bought & paid for". Observing him "pimping" those guns & ammo on TV is degrading ...He's only correct if you have a choice of the 9mm over the .380, of course..If you want to name-drop someone that probably has studied & written more about caliber & effectiveness on the streets; check out what Evan Marshall has to say about the .380 rd.....Your question: Yes, if it's not feasible to carry a larger caliber...BTW, my primary summer pocket-carry is a PPK...

GRB
May 28, 2008, 06:06 PM
Would you trust your life to a .380? Yes.

DougDubya
May 28, 2008, 07:35 PM
Defensory - it was a polite request. You've bullied people without actually using any relevant data to defend your case. And no, shooting dessert molds is nothing relevant except for when you get attacked by creatures out of the first DnD monster manual.

McCall911
May 28, 2008, 08:53 PM
If you ask someone who's successfully defended himself with a .380, he would likely say yes.

That's why I said yes.

Clear enough?

It's a pity that this thread has devolved in the way that it has thanks to one person.

I'm out of here.

Stephen A. Camp
May 28, 2008, 09:08 PM
Once again, the actions of a few posters cause the locking of a thread...

Since folks seem unable or unwilling to take the hint: Most do NOT care about petty arguments between posters who are more like combatants. Is it unreasonable to post one's point of view and reasons why and then move on? Are all of the arguments on "why" the other guy's views are wrong really contributing much if anything (other than discord) to the thread? Is the concern really to get the "truth" out or is it simply to have the last word? Has anyone's opinion on the original topic changed, I wonder?

The topic was "Would you trust your life to a .380?". It was not on how to validate a point of view or related topics.

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