[coloradokevin]

Gee, I thought I was finally making a smart decision by reloading my .223 and other calibers... The savings is substantial, and it gives me something to do. But, after a trip to Sportsmans Warehouse today, I can't even imagine how the guys who shoot the BIG stuff don't reload!!!

I was talking with one of the employees I usually talk to, and he showed me the Federal Premium ammo for the .416 Rigby (400gr bullet)... $210 per 20 rounds!!!

At a retail price of $10.50/rd, I don't know how anyone shooting this caliber could afford not to reload! I decided to plug component costs into my spreadsheet, and I figured that the reloader could make the same exact cartridge (with the Barnes TSX bullet) for about $1.64/rd

An 84% savings on reloading that cartridge!


Anyway, I know you guys all already knew this. But, it is still shocking to see such a dramatic cost difference on the Big Game guns!

[EHCRain10]

plus the added benefit of knowing exactly what is in each cartridge, more accuracy is allowed.

[coloradokevin]

plus the added benefit of knowing exactly what is in each cartridge, more accuracy is allowed.

Agreed. Though, I have heard really good things about that Federal Premium ammo from some friends who have used it.

Still, $210 per 20 is a bit more than I'll spend on ammo (again, don't own that caliber... just speaking hypothetically).

[BruceB]

My .416 Rigby is a Ruger #1H. In the ten-plus years I've owned it, it has NEVER fired a single factory-loaded cartridge.

My standard cast-bullet handload uses the RCBS 416-350 design, actually 365 grains in my alloy. The velocity is 2100 fps, and the grouping is under two inches for TEN rounds at 100 yards.

Since I have never lost or worn-out a single case in the course of loading several thousand rounds over the years, the brass cost is essentially zero. To load these "standard" cast loads, I spend two cents for the primer, 2.5 cents for the gas check, and 15 cents for powder for a total of just under 20 cents per round, or $4.00 per 20. The "power level" is about 90% of the factory load's energy, and ample for any use in North America.

Quite a difference from the cost for factory ammunition, isn't it?

[Idano]

I spend two cents for the primer, 2.5 cents for the gas check, and 15 cents for powder for a total of just under 20 cents per round, or $4.00 per 20.

Bruce, what are you shooting blanks? :what: I think you forgot to add the price for lead.

[Deavis]

he picks up bullets from the berm and presses them back to their original shape using a magical tool. That way they are free, duh! :)

[SSN Vet]

I think you forgot to add the price for lead.

Getting free lead is very easy to do.

[scrat]

Plus plus plus. when your casting your own bullets it is so easy and so cheap. Your bullets will be penny on the dollar. for almost any kind of bullet.

[Eric F]

I shoot 50-90 sharps at $70 to $120 for 20 I bought my brass and started laoding my self. My cost for the first 100 including brass was $1.25/round
a substantial savings now that brass is already bought and recycled its .53/round

[Terminus]

Getting free lead is very easy to do.

The free lead fairies must not like me very much. Any tips?

[PTK]

I have to load for my .458 Win Mag, I simply can't afford to buy even one box of ammo.

[BruceB]

Yep, sorry; I should have gone into more detail.

I shoot straight wheelweight alloy in the vast majority of my loads. My annual consumption runs somewhere around 5,000 to 10,000 center-fire rifle loads, and quite a few handgun rounds in addition to that figure. Practically all of these rounds fire cast bullets. I'm very fortunate to have a kind and co-operative tire shop which GIVES me the wheelweights by the bucket, free of charge. A full 5-gallon bucket typically yields somewhere around 100-120 pounds of bullet metal.

To be perfectly honest, I reckon I COULD try to calculate the power and other associated minor costs for casting, but I usually get tired when I start figuring and go have a nap instead. Whatever it costs, it isn't very much. Also, I usually drop off some sodas or donuts at the tire place, just by way of thanks.

It takes a certain mind-set to succeed at casting, but it's not difficult and I find the whole process to be very enjoyable.

[ReloaderFred]

There are also some calibers that only survive through handloading. My .45-120 Sharps is one example. I've laid in a supply of about 500 rounds of brass and that will last as long as I do. The cast bullets come from my casting pot, and I know I've shot some of that same lead downrange several times .

Another reason to handload is my wife and I are shooting Cowboy Action, and going through several thousands of rounds per year with all the matches we shoot. There is no way we could afford to do this if it wasn't for the fact that I'm loading all the ammunition we use.

Fred

[Sunray]

"...don't know how anyone shooting this caliber could afford not to reload!..." It's about disposable income. Even reloading the big stuff isn't cheap. Midway wants $29.99 per 20 for Hornady .416 Rigby brass and that's as cheap as it gets. If you want to play with that stuff, you have to pay.

[TAB]

It would be cheaper to buy 100 rounds of 416 then it would be to buy the componets and eq to reload it. Not to mention the time to do so... For me the last price increase in factory ammo made it so I am the the break even point ( other then paying for the press) to reload.

Last year at this time I would have lost money to take time off work to reload.

[ReloaderFred]

"Midway wants $29.99 per 20 for Hornady .416 Rigby brass and that's as cheap as it gets."

I wish .45 Basic brass was that cheap. The best price I've ever found it for was around $46.00 for 20 rounds.

Fred

[coloradokevin]

"...don't know how anyone shooting this caliber could afford not to reload!..." It's about disposable income. Even reloading the big stuff isn't cheap. Midway wants $29.99 per 20 for Hornady .416 Rigby brass and that's as cheap as it gets. If you want to play with that stuff, you have to pay.

Yeah, it isn't like shooting .22LR any way you slice it... Still, to me, saving some money is always a plus! But, I don't have an African Safari type salary anyway!



It would be cheaper to buy 100 rounds of 416 then it would be to buy the componets and eq to reload it. Not to mention the time to do so... For me the last price increase in factory ammo made it so I am the the break even point ( other then paying for the press) to reload.

Last year at this time I would have lost money to take time off work to reload.

Well, TAB, admitedly I don't consider my "time" as a portion of the cost of reloading... It's a part of the hobby, so I don't factor that in to the cost.

Ignoring time, however, I still see component prices being cheaper than purchase prices on ammo. the key is to amortize your brass over multiple uses, and even with conservative estimates the savings add up!

I priced out the components that would be required to build the .416 Rigby cartridges that I saw for $210/20 (components through Midway and Powdervalley), and it is cheaper to make that round, even when factoring in the shipping/Hazmat fees.

I don't know if there are cheaper sources for that cartridge than Sprotsman's Warehouse (but I did notice Cabela's was priced similarly), and obviously I was looking at premium ammo.

But, just take the good-ol' .223 Rem cartridge for an example...

Currently the cheapest I am seeing for brass cased LOADED plinking ammo is around $385 per 1000. Smaller quantities of boxed .223 is running about $9.70/20 last I checked. That is $0.385/round and $0.485/round, respectively.

My handloads, on the other hand, are coming out to $0.27/round (maximum).

That's with figuring the cost of store-bought new brass that is used for a very conservative three loadings, store bought powder in 1lb increments, and primers bought in quantities of 1,000, and bulk plinking bullets in quantities of 1,000 (roughly the same grade of bullet as the loaded ammo I speak of)...

From there I could save substantially over that listed price by: Getting more use of my brass, buying my powder in bulk from online retailers (even with hazmat), buying my primers in greater quantity, and finding cheaper sources of brass than Sportsman's Warehouse.

As is, we are still looking at $.12/rd ($120/case) and $.215/rd ($215/case) off of loaded ammunition. So, for my calibers it makes sense, and I can pay the equipment off within a couple of cases! And, my very first handloads beat my comparable factory ammo in five seperate side-by-side groups.

In short, I'm sold on handloading!


(anyway, I'm heading back to the basement to spend more of my time on this...)

[TAB]

so how much have you spent on reloading EQ?

a basic set up that can do 416 is what $400-$500? add it another $150-275 for brass, another $125-250 for bullets( good brand name bullets) lets say another $50 for powder and primers.


all prices were taken from midway usa.

your pretty close to the cost of buying that 1st 100 bullets.

Will you see gains latter on? Sure will, but if you only shoot the gun 100x in your life time.( which is more then I would want to shoot a 416) Most people would say its not worth it.

This is coming from some one that owns a 257 wbym... I know all about the high cost of ammo. Buying it locally is around $6.50 a shot if I can find it.

[coloradokevin]

TAB,

Again, I'll admit that this is coming from a hypothetical standpoint (as I don't own that caliber myself).

But, any cheap single stage O-press ought to be able to reload .416 Rigby (even a Lee starter kit). Dies are dies... they are less common in this caliber, but a quick search revealed that prices are fairly close to normal die set prices.

Press setup (on the cheap): http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat602007-cat20847&id=0003080216577a&navCount=1&podId=0003080&parentId=cat20847&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20847&hasJS=true

Dies for that cartridge: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat602007-cat20847_TGP&id=0012726210894a&navCount=5&podId=0012726&parentId=cat20847&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20847&hasJS=true

(those two together would run you about $135. Add in a couple of accessories: case trimmer, case lube, chamfer/debur tool, etc... figure another $100. So, maybe $235 to start).

So, a basic setup wouldn't necessarily set you back by $500, though I'll freely admit that the sky is the limit on reloading equipment (it can get spendy quick, if you let it).

I probably spent closer to $400 myself in getting setup... but not everything I purchased is necessary for the hypothetical loader doing low-volume shooting with a .416 rigby! I bought a turret press to do higher volume shooting (pistol and .223 loads), and I purchased some accessories I wouldn't have necessarily had to buy right away if I wasn't going to do what I was (dies for various calibers, a tumbler and media seperator, etc).

Anyway, for my purposes it makes sense... I am reloading mostly .223 right now, and I shoot that high volume. Just in working up some loads I've gone through 200 handloads in my AR-15 in the past two weeks (some folks would say that this is extremely low volume! But, at that volume it will still pay for all of my equipment within a year or so).

[TexasSkyhawk]

so how much have you spent on reloading EQ?

a basic set up that can do 416 is what $400-$500? add it another $150-275 for brass, another $125-250 for bullets( good brand name bullets) lets say another $50 for powder and primers.


all prices were taken from midway usa.

your pretty close to the cost of buying that 1st 100 bullets.

Your numbers are off, substantially.

A Lee Classic Cast can do any calibre, up to the 50 BMG--and can be easily had for under $100. The Lee Challenger can do that calibre and be had for less than $50. Dies can be had for under $75, including shell plate. A powder measure can be had for $100 or less, easily, and scales for less than $40.

Most big-game rifle owners I know and have known ALSO have other large and/or exotic calibres--so that reloading setup isn't exactly going to be limited to just one calibre.

Brass is a fixed cost, but can be used multiple times--and even more if you take the time to anneal it. I anneal my better 30-06 and .308 cartridges--and they're readily available. Bet your booty I'd be annealing that .416 brass.

Bullets? There is always the option of casting your own, and worst case scenario is you'll pay up to a $1/$1.50 per pound for wheel weights to smelt.

Primer and powder for $50? 100 primers can be had for less than $15 retail, and a pound of Hogden or IMR powder can be had for $25 retail--and that will get you 100 rounds.

For $200, you get 20 factory rounds and you get to keep the brass. In reloading, your initial setup is just that--initial, one-time cost that gets divided into itself each time the equipment is used to produce more ammo.

The first 100 rounds of factory ammo will cost you over $1000. You can begin reloading with everything you need for half that cost right out of the chute. Then all you need is keeping bullets, primers and powder on hand--all of which can be purchased in bulk.

Jeff

[TAB]

I said the prices where strait from midwayusa... so please check there to see how much stuff costs, while yes you can find stuff cheaper, does not mean people will go that route...

BTW you can not cast 416... unless you want it to melt on the way there. even if you could your still adding too your reloading costs.

What I think you guys fail to see is I'm not talking about reloading stuff several times. I'm speaking strickly for the 1st hundred rounds. The cost to get a nice press, components and other stuff is about the same as buying them new.

Some times I really wonder about THR.

[ReloaderFred]

Let me chip in here. I currently load for 28 different calibers, from .25-20 up through .45-120 Sharps. Two of the off beat calibers I load for are .400 Cor-Bon and 9x25 Dillon. Another is .41 Action Express. Some others are 9x21 and 9x23 Winchester. While it may be possible to find .400 Cor-Bon in the large cities, (though I doubt it) it's not available within 300 miles of me, and neither is 9x23 Win., so my only option is to load it, or buy off the internet, which is prohibitively expensive. The 9x25 Dillon wasn't available at all until Double Tap saw a niche and started offering it. As for the .41 AE, I probably have one of the biggest hordes of factory ammunition and primed virgin brass in the U.S. for this caliber. It's not available, period.

Without reloading, I wouldn't be able to shoot my 9x21, 9x23, 9x25, .400 Cor-Bon, .41 AE or .45-120 Sharps. I enjoy each and every one of them. I also couldn't afford to shoot the thousands of rounds per year that I and my wife shoot in matches, practices and informal plinking and target practice.

I started reloading in 1963, and have been accumulating tools ever since. The closest I can figure, my loaded round count is somewhere in the area of 750,000 rounds to date, but may be many more, since I didn't keep any records at all the first 20 years, other than the labels on the boxes and ammo cans full of loaded rounds.

To me, reloading isn't at all about cost savings. It's my hobby (OK, obsession), and I really enjoy it. I very seldom watch TV, since I consider it a total waste of precious resources. My wife is glued to it, so I go to my shop and do what I like best, load ammunition. I could probably arm a small Central American country, but I'm never out of ammunition when someone wants to go shooting, and if it wasn't for reloading, I couldn't say that.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[BruceB]

"BTW, you can not cast .416.....unless you want it to melt on the way there."

I don't know where THAT piece of 'information' came from, but it is sadly mistaken.

The .416 is no different from any other rifle cartridge using cast bullets, except for the generic fact that larger-caliber rifles shooting cast bullets will often yield good results more easily than smaller calibers.

I have driven the RCBS .416-350 design to over 2600 fps with decent accuracy and NO "LEADING" (along with plenty of recoil). The standard load I mentioned earlier shoots so cleanly that the rifle has fired strings of several hundred rounds over a period of months, without cleaning of the barrel. The no-cleaning regimen is followed in order to preserve the "conditioning" of the bore, and I get away with it due to the very dry climate here in Nevada. Ten rounds under two inches from 100 yards isn't all that bad, in the real world.

What significance do the first hundred rounds have? I load ammunition over the long haul, and my .416 is now well-past the two-thousand-round mark. The whole point of reloading is to be able to shoot more by re-using our brass. I repeat what I said earlier: I have lost not one single .416 case over the course of loading over 2,000 rounds.

Apart from the cost of components, such as the VERY expensive brass for the Rigby, setting up to load any particular cartridge costs about the same as any other. Dies, sometimes a shellholder, and we are good to go. With half-decent treatment, good tools are a lifetime investment. I have RCBS dies which I bought new back in the '60s which are as good as the day they left the factory.

[The Bushmaster]

To be Exact on the press. I just received my new Lee Classic Cast single stage press. COST? $67.49 Special offer to me (and a bunch of others) from Midway...You need to go back and check your prices again..You are wwwaaayyy off...

I don't load .416 Rigby, but I do reload .30-06 and I can tell you that I do save a bunch. What does a box of 20 rounds cost...? Oh yeh...$25.00 (that's $1.25 a round) for what I would consider an equivalent to what I load for less then $9.80 (that's $.49 a round) for twenty rounds. Sierra HPBT 165 grain. 59 grains of H4831 and a primer. Brass was free...

[TexasSkyhawk]

BTW you can not cast 416... unless you want it to melt on the way there. even if you could your still adding too your reloading costs.

Huh?

Do you cast any calibres at all, or have you?

That makes about as much sense--and has as much factual credence--as the 5.56 is deadly because it comes out of the barrel tumbling. . .

What I think you guys fail to see is I'm not talking about reloading stuff several times. I'm speaking strickly for the 1st hundred rounds. The cost to get a nice press, components and other stuff is about the same as buying them new.

Another big "HUH?"

I've yet to meet the gun-buyer/owner who purchased a gun to only shoot one hundred times, and then that's it.

Likewise, I've yet to meet the reloader who bought equipment only to load one hudred rounds, and then that would be it.

Reloaders normally fall into two categories:

1. Those who reload to SAVE money, and/or

2. Those who reload in order to shoot MORE for around the SAME cost as buying factory ammo.

Some times I really wonder about THR.

Likewise.

Jeff

[TAB]

you forget numbers 3

3. some one that needs a round to do a job that is currently not made

Thats how I got started.

I recently just picked up a new 1050 and a KISS bullet feeder... I've done some math, using current prices and simlar loadings my break even point is around 40k rounds.

I didn't buy the 1050 to save money or to even shoot more for the same cost,( I could have bought several other press for alot less) I bought the 1050 becuase I find reloading boring and the faster I can get it done the better.

You will find that most gun owners are the same, They find thier time worth more then thier money.

Not to mention that the average gun is lucky to see a box or 2 of shells thru it.

[lgbloader]

Here we go again...

We've been through too many of these...LOL

Let us raise our glasses in the name of The 2nd Ammendment and piss on the fire.

Cheers...

[coloradokevin]

Gee, never realized I was stiring up the controversy pot so much with this thread!

Seems like a heated issue.

I've checked my numbers, as have the others... Simply put, reloading can save money if you do it right, and don't price out the time you spend on it.

Honestly, I'd love a Dillon 1050, but it wasn't in the price range for what I was looking to do. But, that doesn't mean that you need to spend that much to get into reloading!

[The Bushmaster]

The time spent reloading is therapy. It goes on the "money saved" column. No need for a therapist...

[plinky]

I'm not a high volume shooter but I'm certain that I've saved a lot of money reloading. Not to mention, there are some guns that I would never have found a good factory load for.

The vast majority of your loading equipment will be used for any cartridge you load for. It is basically universal. So unless you're only going to have one centerfire gun (Haa!), you'll get a lot of use from your gear. Most of my initial gear was used and that was a good way to start, upgrading as money became available.

Some people probably truly don't have time to reload but at my rate of shooting, it is not so bad. My shooting time is divided between .22lr and whatever big centerfire is currently in favor, at about a 2 to 1 ratio. If I shoot 80 rounds of .22 and 40 from the biggy, I've had a good day and only have 40 empty cases. If you are organised it's not that big a chore. Yes, some shooters go through ammo like popcorn and I would hate to try and do their loading.

Some random reasons why reloading works for me:

For reasons clearly psychiatric :rolleyes:, I enjoy big rounds. These are generally where you'll save the most money per round. They are also more pleasant to load (tiny cases are a pain to handle). They are also rounds that you won't tend to shoot hundreds in a day so reloading is managable.

In short, ColoradoKevin is onto something. It's not right for every shooter but for some it is just common sense IMHO.

[dirtman]

Tab, this is a reloading site... so you have to appreciate most of us have been reloading for many years. I do it for accuracy, or precision shooting, some times because its the only way I can get a particular load. The stuff off the retail shelf is never going to be as accurate as a load worked up for your rifle. Yes when I cost in my time.... I could make a hell of a lot more money working..... but then that’s it working or doing something I really get a kick out of (pun intended). Loading wins out every time....

[coloradokevin]

Some people probably truly don't have time to reload but at my rate of shooting, it is not so bad. My shooting time is divided between .22lr and whatever big centerfire is currently in favor, at about a 2 to 1 ratio. If I shoot 80 rounds of .22 and 40 from the biggy, I've had a good day and only have 40 empty cases. If you are organised it's not that big a chore. Yes, some shooters go through ammo like popcorn and I would hate to try and do their loading.

I'm not too far off from where you are at when shooting rifle. I'll usually go out and shoot 50-100 rounds through my rifle (in .223... less in the heavier calibers) in a session, and about twice that amount through the .22's. As such, I have 50-100 casings to process for reloading.

I can shoot a heck of a lot more on pistol, but reloading for the pistol is quicker and easier anyway!