[2dogs]

http://www.americandaily.com/item/2047

The Militia Threat Is Real

By Trevor Bothwell on 08/20/03
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In this post-September 11 world, the threat and reality of domestic terrorism are all too well known. Americans have finally begun to take seriously the risks we face from international menaces like Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

But do threats to our sovereignty always originate outside our borders? In his book, Terrorists Among Us, Captain Robert L. Snow outlines the potential dangers we face from the modern militia movement right here in the United States.

So who belongs to militias? Capt. Snow explains that militias are usually comprised of people who are not adjusting well to modern society, to the changing roles of women, or to the racial balancing finally taking place. The most radical fringe of the militia movement often sympathizes with racist organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations, or any general anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi organization like the National Alliance.

However, the author cautions that “it is a mistake to believe that the civilian militias in our country consist only of angry, unemployed, young, white males,” explaining that the movement often attracts older people who may have been downsized out of jobs, or who may have seen careers disappear to foreign outsourcing. Militia members are generally confused, angry and frightened, and militias give them someone to blame.

One of the most widely held beliefs of militia members is that the federal government is a co-conspirator with the United Nations, where the ultimate plan is to usurp sovereignty from Americans and thus effect international takeover of the country. Hence, militia members are almost always strict adherents to the Constitution, and oppose just about any government restriction that threatens individual rights. And nothing is more important to the militia movement than the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms.

Weapons and ammunition are the top priority for militias. “They come before eating out at restaurants,” says Snow. “They come before buying camping equipment or taking vacations. They come before making any purchases other than the bare necessities.” After all, one needs to be prepared when the takeover begins.

The notion of conspiracies dominates the psyches of militia members. Capt. Snow writes that one of the prevalent beliefs of militias was that the year 2000 would be the year of the New World Order, the organization secretly controlling the United Nations, which plans total world domination.

Will the fact that three years have passed since this (ostensibly) faulty prediction assuage the concerns of militias? Not necessarily, says Snow. He states: “[P]roving the evidence of the conspiracies held by militia members was actually just mistakes, misjudgments, or coincidence can also be near impossible, because for those in the militia movement who believe in these various conspiracies, mistakes, misjudgments, and coincidences simply do not occur.” In other words, to militia members, the more unlikely a conspiracy seems to others merely proves just how effective the conspirators are in covering up their true intentions.

The interesting aspect about this book is that it was written in 1999 (indeed, the author writes in what is to him the present and future, as the reader retains the benefit of hindsight to judge his accuracy). Its place on our reading list is obviously appropriate today, as our awareness of terrorism is heightened. Still, the reader gets an eerie feeling as the author describes the Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh as the most devastating attack on American soil. But understanding now that we could face threats simultaneously, from terrorist groups both abroad and domestic, should be enough to strike fear and caution into the hearts of all decent Americans.

Terrorists Among Us it not pleasure reading. The information at times becomes redundant, as when the author points out several times over the influence that conspiracy theories retain over militia members. But while not exactly a page-turner, this book clearly boasts pertinent information about domestic terrorism that the general reader is not likely to acquire unless he seeks it out.

While Capt. Snow is careful to admit that not all militia members prescribe to some of the more desperate and radical views that lead to tragic events like Columbine, Waco or Oklahoma City, he indirectly makes the case for profiling as a means of law enforcement. Most militia members are law-abiding citizens; many are people who believe the federal government exercises too much authority over us, but they have no ambition to wreak havoc over the lives of others.

However, recent events have shown that while the majority of any group is usually harmless, the radical fringe can often prove very dangerous, even deadly. Neglecting to identify the rotten apples in an otherwise acceptable bunch is a recipe for disaster only a terrorist could love.

[priv8ter]

Not quite sure how to respond to this piece of 'Fanning the Flames' Ka Ka.

while the majority of any group is usually harmless, the radical fringe can often prove very dangerous, even deadly

So...is there ANY group out there that this saying isn't true of? I mean, come on. It doesn't just apply to 'militia' members...let's look at any organized religion! Or environmentalists! Or Mothers! Thanks for the info MOTO.

And then there is this line:

Weapons and ammunition are the top priority for militias. “They come before eating out at restaurants,” says Snow

That one's hitting just a little too close to home, especially since part of my plan for saving to get a new gun is giving up eating out once a month! But,that is the same way I plan on saving for a new TV! Does that mean I am going to open a pirate TV Station?

Bah.

Who is this author? Just what is Mr. Robert L. Snow a Captain in? Air Force? Marines? Police? Salvation Army? Or maybe a member of some rival Militia Force, trying to lure us into a false sence of security before the New World Order :barf: strikes.

Wasn't Hulk Hogan a member of the NWO in Pro-Wrestling?

On the other hand though, from the page of the story, you can find a cute article about what a joke Janine Garrapholo(spelling? ahhh...who cares)

greg

[priv8ter]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I did a search for Mr. Snow...Head of the Indianapolis Homicide Department.

he also has several other books out:

SWAT Teams, Stopping the Stalker, The complete Guide to Personal and Home Safety, and Looking for Carroll Beckwith, where he attempts to prove that he lived a former life.


Any read any of his other books?

[NukemJim]

Looking for Carroll Beckwith, where he attempts to prove that he lived a former life. :what:

I hope he finds his former life he definetly needs a new one :)

Read this book several years ago ( pre 9-11 ) was not impressed. IMHO it was merely a book due to the media fixation on the militia invovlement of Timothy McVeigh (SP?) Much like the " White Van" in the beltway shootings.

I threw the book out after reading which is atypical for me I save everything but real bad books for my library

NukemJim

[Mark Tyson]

Most militias/survivalists are harmless. Even the head of FBI's HRT (Danny Coulsen, no friend of the militia movement) said as much both in his book "No Heroes" and on national TV. They may have some wierd ideas about the UN and conspiracy theories, and they may have some strongly held political beliefs, but most of them don't threaten people or commit crimes. If they want to get together on weekends and shoot tin cans and dress up in camo, so what? They're not hurting anyone. This article is fear mongering at its worst.

There's a book out called "Nazis, Communists, Klansmen and Others on the Fringe" about extremist groups, written by two slightly left wing civil libertarians. Anyone with access to a copy read the chapter on militias for the real deal.

[hammer4nc]

Must be number one on the Morris Dees book club!

[CGofMP]

This is exactly the kind of mentality that is part and parcel of Matthew Bracken 's new book "Enemies Foreign And Domestic".

I was going to wait till my copy arrived to read the thing, but was stuck working grave shift this week so I went to the free chapters section on Bracken's Website (http://enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/) and plowed through all of the 'in order' chapters (so as not to ruin the plot for myself.

Can not believe how well art imitates life imitating art.

Can not wait to get the book in my hands and read the rest of it.

Charles

http://enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/bookcover.jpg

[El Tejon]

The only danger that the militia boys pose is to themselves from their lack of martial training and a danger to the buffet line.:D

I had no idea that BDUs came in waist size 48???:confused:

[scbair]

RKBA supporter says,"The Second Amendment guarantees individuals the right to keep and bear arms to defend the nation and Constitution of the USA, if & when necessary, and even references "militia."

"Anti" replies,"Pshaw, there's no way individual defensive arms could be effective against a coordinated hostile attack, so it's unnecessary and ridiculous."

RKBA supporter says, "The right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, to guarantee the people will be able to defend themselves and society against criminal assailants, outlaws, and large groups of rioters when the police prove inadequate to deal with the problem."

"Anti" replies, "But those militias are such a threat! They could wipe out our entire society with their individual small arms!!"

It's like trying to argue with a 2 year old; with no basis in reality, the base of the argument floats all over the place.

Simple fact: The Second Amendment recognizes a nation of armed and determined, law-abiding citizens is the greatest threat to tyranny, whether individual (home invaders) or organized (such a nation can be destroyed, but never conquered, and the price to the destroyer will be astronomical).
:rolleyes:

[Monte Harrison]

A. This is a load of fearmongering, stereotype propagating crap.

B. (Going along with my maxim that all stereotypes have a kernel of truth) A bunch of fat, bearded crackers in camouflage overalls gabbing on about the New World Order in a thick drawl do not inspire much concern in my mind.

[seeker_two]

Simple fact: The Second Amendment recognizes a nation of armed and determined, law-abiding citizens is the greatest threat to tyranny...

And THAT'S why politicians & socialist liberals like the author are terrified of RKBA...

Tyranny is the only way that a socialist agenda has been able to keep long-term power, so any threat to tyranny is a threat to them.

Milita members: Keep up the good work... :cool:

[tiberius]

Weapons and ammunition are the top priority for militias. “They come before eating out at restaurants,”

Well this shows that NOT all of their priorities are out of whack.

[atek3]

Capt. Snow explains that militias are usually comprised of people who are not adjusting well to modern society, to the changing roles of women, or to the racial balancing finally taking place.

Not adjusting well to modern society...what a crock. Do you find democratic socialism slightly stiffling? Uh Oh, You might not be "adjusting well to modern society". I guess me and my college-edumakated friends must be total nuts.

atek3

[mjydrafter]

I believe in the militia's regardless of this buffon's scaremongering.

As per usual, a few chuckle-heads have ruined it for everyone else.

Wasn't Tim M. kicked out of, or not accepted in the militia he tried to become apart of?

[brownie0486]

There have been instances where rogue militia members, dissatisfied with the lack of "will" to make a stand have gone out on their own and caused some damage.

Wasn't McVeigh one such animal that came from that scenario?

I'd say there could be reason to watch the militias and that they have the potential to have members go "postal" at anytime. Sure would be prudent to keep an eye on the members to my thinking.

The "whole" of a militia unit may not be a real threat, but the individuals who gravitate to that type of org have shown, at times, a propensity to sheer away from the main body and become a potential probelm.

Prudence would dictate they keep tabs on them from past history before it can repeat itself.

Brownie

[C.R.Sam]

Militia is good.
And one of the foundation stones of our Republic.
Bad can be found in any group.
A bad pickle does not the jar spoil.

Bothwell, and others of his ilk, are a risk to the Republic.

As are most politicians and other criminals.

Sam

[brownie0486]

I don't think the local bingo or bridge club members pose much threat or have many "bad" players who would be possible/potential problems to the security of the US.

Brownie

[Futo Inu]

What a remedial - what is he captain of, his plastic toy bathtub boat?

[Kharn]

Capt. Snow needs to adjust his tinfoil a little better.

Kharn

[Intune]

While Capt. Snow is careful to admit that not all militia members prescribe to some of the more desperate and radical views that lead to tragic events like Columbine, Waco or Oklahoma City, he indirectly makes the case for profiling as a means of law enforcement.


"…makes the case for profiling…" Hmmm, really? Whites, religious, loners, teenagers, former military, Blacks, video game players, trench coat wearers? How about, tada, GUN OWNERS!!??

"… is careful to admit that not all militia members prescribe to some of the more desperate and radical views that lead to tragic events like Columbine, Waco…" Pure B.S. And I'm careful to admit that not all media members prescribe to some of the more desperate and radical views that lead to tragic events like Hiroshima, Dresden and the World Trade Center. Sheesh
:barf:

[s&w 24]

I read it as I usualy read these anti gun/anti prepardness books and as usual it was a load of horse apples.

[longeyes]

So "militia" is now a dirty word? I suppose "citizen" is next?
Yes, we have so much to fear from those wackjobs who keep referring
to that terrorist document called The U.S. Constitution (I hark
back to the directive from, what was it, the Arizona branch of the
FBI: watch out for Constitution-quoting types).

America has a lot more to fear from soccer moms than from militias.
In the end we will need to mobilize far and wide to repel the very real
threats that are massing to destroy our inalienable freedoms.

[Partisan Ranger]

I've no doubt that there are a few militia crackpots out there that see black helicoptors in their sleep, BUT I think that elitist politicians and bureaucrats who want to run our lives from how much water our toilet uses to taxing the air we breath are a MUCH larger threat to our Republic.

[DadOfThree]

Hence, militia members are almost always strict adherents to the Constitution, and oppose just about any government restriction that threatens individual rights
That is just sick!!! What kind of wackos want to adhere to the Constitution and and keep the government from restricting individuals rights. How is a government supposed to operate if it can't do whatever it wants? These people should be locked up and sent to a retraining camp at the very least. How can the government take care of me if people keep trying to limit what it can do for me?????

[Waitone]

While it is far too easy to poke fun at the good author, keep in mind he is only reflecting the attitude of the administration of our blessedly former president. Clinton, Clinton, Gore, and Reno (CCGO) convinced themselves the gravest threat to the republic can from internal militia movements. A lot of investigation of these subversive groups was done. Plans were put in place to move against various militia groups. The situation was perceived to be sufficiently bad for some militia members and leadership to move their families out of the US.

[grampster]

I have a couple of questions for ya'll:

Does tyranny exist now? And if so, is the reason because most of the citizenry tolerates it by continuing to be uninvolved and uninformed with respect to the critters they ensconce in government at all levels? If so, what in heaven's name can we do about it?

Personally, I think we have a tyrannical government now. Not tyranny in the classical sense, but one of a paradigm shift of the reversal of where the power lies. Ie: According to the Constitution, power flows from free people to its constitutional republican form of government administered by elected representatives forming the three branches of government for the benefit of the many. Or, has the power has been grabbed by elected and appointed officials (allowed by ignorant, apathetic, lazy, selfish people) who now control the people through taxation, creation of the nanny state, and bellicose laws enforced by leo's and courts against those who refuse to knuckle under to the vast sea of "laws" like property taxes, epa rules, etc etc ad nauseum.

I don't think its just about firearms and the 2A anymore. I wonder if the entire system hasn't broken down because of apathy, ignorance and selfishness.

I recently had a conversation with an aquaintance about taxes. I said to him, "Doesn't it bother you that by the time you figure out the taxes you pay at all levels it equals about 55 cents (or more) on every dollar that your earn?" His answer was absolutely astounding and left me speechless.
(tough thing to do) He said, ..."And we're living pretty good on that 45 cents aren't we?" If the rest of the populace is as stupid as this guy, God save the union.

grampster

[lapidator]

and oppose just about any government restriction that threatens individual rights.

Telling... no?

So this guy is suspect of those who would protect individual rights?

hmmm....

[moa]

Does the book point out any criminal and violent actions done by the militias? I know of virtually none. Tim McVeigh was a temporary militia member but was kicked out for his extreme views.

Just reading a little bit about the left wing radicals of the 1960s and 1970s who commited many violent crimes including killing a number of LEOs. Seems like there was much more news media uproar over the militias in the 1990s then there was over such groups as the Black Liberation Army, the Weather Underground or the Black Panther Party during the 1960s and 70s.

Looks to me like the militias have gone a bit underground. I no longer see "news" footage of them in the woods wearing camis and firing their weapons. I think they must have realized that show-boating like that makes them look dangerous and kooky in the eyes of some.

[Sergeant Bob]

I'd say there could be reason to watch the militias and that they have the potential to have members go "postal" at anytime. Sure would be prudent to keep an eye on the members to my thinking.
My irony meter just went offscale high! Haven't heard of anyone going " militia" lately.

[AZTOY]

"The militia of the State of Arizona shall consist of all capable citizens of the state [between the ages of eighteen and forty-five years],
and of those [between said ages] who shall have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing therein, subject to such exemptions as now exist, or as may hereafter be created, by the laws of the United States or of this state."

Article 16, Section 1, Arizona Constitution

I'm part of a militia, by the laws of the Arizona Constitution.:scrutiny: :scrutiny: :D

[priv8ter]

Aztoy, here in Washington, our Militia definition is even less restrictive:

The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

No upper age limit...kind of sad...I know some upper middle age folks whoe are scary...that 'old age and Treachery' thing will get you every time.

[LawDog]

United States Code. Title 10. Chapter 13:
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

That is your militia, according to Federal Law. Plain, simple, easy to read and understand.

Hence, militia members are almost always strict adherents to the Constitution, and oppose just about any government restriction that threatens individual rights

Hoo hah! Given my 'strict adherence' to the US Constitution, guess I'm in a world of sheep-dip.

LawDog

[Zundfolge]

I haven't read Captain Snow's book, but $10 says it doesn't contain anything on the ELF, EarthFirst, The New Black Panthers, The Nation of Islam, United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors, La Raza or any other non "white supremacist" groups that are prone to violence.

Thereby proving himself to be a tool of the leftist terrorists in America and no better then the "Militias" he's "warning" us about.

:fire:

[NukemJim]

The "whole" of a militia unit may not be a real threat, but the individuals who gravitate to that type of org have shown, at times, a propensity to sheer away from the main body and become a potential probelm.

If we substitute the "police force" for the words "militia unit" the above is definetly a true statement. If you doubt me I will be happy to send you clips of all the police where I live ( Chicago) that have been sent to jail, found to fabricate evidence, and assault innocent people etc....

Not that all police are bad, No the vast majority are honest hardworking people who are doing the best they can in a horrible situation and are trying to protect citizens and enforce the law. I respect the honest police. That does not mean that I blame all the police for the sins of a few. Nor should we blame all the militias for the sins of a few WAIT Tim McVeigh was kicked out of the Michigan militia after 2 meetings so that was not really a militia member. ( Unless we start counting people who were kicked off the police force and then became crooked as "Crooked Cops ) Can anyone remember when a militia/militia member did commit some horrible attrocity/crime ? I cannot.

NukemJim

[13A]

To my knowledge, no militia unit has shot a boy in the back or a woman with a baby in her arms (Weavers), or burned alive a religious group (Branch Davidians) like our government alphabet agencies have. Which group do you think is the greater threat to our freedom?

Many of you are part of the unorganized militia and don't even know it. How sad.

[Combat-wombat]

Are there radical violent militas out there? Of course. Does that mean every militia is a radical fringe group? NO.


A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

[grampster]

The original question was about the militia. I got to thinking about that and I posted some opinion that was off topic. Sorry to waste anybody's time who happened to read it. My bad.
:( :p

[13A]

Grampster,

I read all of your post and DID NOT consider a waste of time. In fact, I think the topics you mentioned are what motivates the militias, and therefore were ON TOPIC. By the way, I'm a Gramps too.

[grampster]

13A: Gramps: Ie, Best job I ever had! Bar none!

:D :D

[goon]

Weapons and ammunition are the top priority for militias. “They come before eating out at restaurants,” says Snow. “They come before buying camping equipment or taking vacations. They come before making any purchases other than the bare necessities.” After all, one needs to be prepared when the takeover begins.

You are damn right they do!
I can do without Burger King, I can do without vacations and I can even do without the Internet.
The one thing I will not do without is my ability to resist.
I will resist criminals, terrorists and anyone else who is a threat to my country, my friends, my family and my liberties.
That is the whole point.
Once upon a time, I swore to uphold the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic.
I swore an oath before God. I am not a perfect Christian, but I do make an effort to keep my books too far out of the red. I recall reading something in the Bible at one point about how any oath before God stands as long as you live.
Hence, I still hold true to that oath.
If that puts me in the same class as the same trash that burns crosses on lawns or crashes planes in buildings full of innocent people, then that is a real shame.
In actuality, I am one of those who would stand against such people. Not because I want glory, not because I like to fight, but because it is what is right.
Guess that ain't good enough anymore.
The Free State Project is looking better and better.

[Erik]

While the article describes some militias, it is a stretch to claim it describes a large segment of, let alone all of them.

[brownie0486]

13a,

McVeigh---militia----how many dead in Oklahoma?

They [ the militia ] denounced him after the fact of OKC bombing.

The point above is that some militias may be responsible for fostering anti-government sentiment to the point one or more of them then takes action on their own against the gov types.

The militias may not have killed those folks in OKC themselves but they fostered the notion to McVeigh and others within the org that it's acceptable to kill others to meet some perceived threat by .gov's.

Brownie

[Augustwest]

...the more desperate and radical views that lead to tragic events like Columbine, Waco or Oklahoma City...

Can some please 'splain to me what two deranged kids have to do with "militia" in any way, shape or form?

[Hutch]

Brownie:

The militias may not have killed those folks in OKC themselves but they fostered the notion to McVeigh and others within the org that it's acceptable to kill others to meet some perceived threat by .gov's.

McVeigh had also done a hitch in the Army. They also taught him, among a loooooot of others, that it's okay to kill others who are a threat. You ain't blamin' them too, are ya? Your point is as valid as blaming the Unibomber on the DNC because he read Al Gore's book and went off the deep end.

[moa]

One account I read of McVeigh's Army career is that he was a crackerjack gunner on a Bradley FV, served in the first Gulf War, and he killed a number of Iraqi troops in combat.

[seeker_two]

The militias may not have killed those folks in OKC themselves but they fostered the notion to McVeigh and others within the org that it's acceptable to kill others to meet some perceived threat by .gov's.

Let's do a little word substitution....

militias = Democrats
OKC = Waco
McVeigh = Reno
by = to

...or try this one...

militias = Democrats
OKC = California
McVeigh = ELF
kill = set fire to
.gov = Hummer H2's


See? This game can get interesting... :uhoh:

[NukemJim]

McVeigh---militia----how many dead in Oklahoma?

They [ the militia ] denounced him after the fact of OKC bombing.



I believe ( as always I could be mistaken ) that McVeigh was asked to leave the "Michigan Militia" after he atteneded 2 ( two ) meeting because he was advocating violence.

The McVeigh militia "connection" is just as real as the "white van" in the Beltway shootings.

If you want to blame the militias for the actions of whom they kicked out, I wonder what that implies for the US Armed Forces who kick out people who later commit crimes.

NukemJim

[Zundfolge]

McVeigh---militia----how many dead in Oklahoma?

They [ the militia ] denounced him after the fact of OKC bombing.

To add to what NukemJim said; The reason the militia denounced him after the fact is because before then he was just some crank they had asked to leave ... he hadn't done anything newsworthy and the news media probably wouldn't have reported it anyway since nobody would care.

Do you expect Peter Jennings or Dan Rather to read lists of everyone asked to leave a Militia meeting just in case one of them is a loose nut?

[Futo Inu]

"I believe ( as always I could be mistaken ) that McVeigh was asked to leave the "Michigan Militia" after he attended 2 ( two ) meeting because he was advocating violence.

The McVeigh militia "connection" is just as real as the "white van" in the Beltway shootings."

You nailed it, brotha. That's why Morris Dees and the SPLC infuriate me so, because they equate militias to hate groups, and it just ain't so. Unless you mean they hate a certain state of affairs, and not a certain group of people. If that's the case, then MADD is a hate group because they hate drunk driving. Some things it's good to hate, and should be hated. *IF* the militia members, or even the militia as a whole in its formal documents (the sub-organization of the national milita that is), hate the size of the federal gov't, then this is not only a good thing to encourage the espousal of, in order foster valuable debate (and protected by the 1A I might add), but it's in fact quite understandable and RIGHT given the unbelievable size, waste, and extent of corruption in the behemoth that is the federal gov't. Dees needs to define hate groups and quit talking about the militia, so remedials like our beloved captain here don't pick up on the lie and start to believe it and spread it.
:cuss:

[brownie0486]

Hutch:

I was also taught how to effectively kill in the military as well. Never thought about doing an OKC bombing due to my hatred for the .govs though. That attitude was fostered by the militias [ at least in part ].

Thats has nothing to do with his actions against innocent civilians within the US [ they didn't teach him or foster his anti-gov views in the military] . See the difference now between the military training and mindset to kill others [ in a military seting ], and some of the militias who are anti-gov and foster that attitude that the end justifies the means in a civilian setting within our own country?

Brownie

[Hutch]

Brownie, the connection to the militree is just as valid as your juxtaposition of him with "The Militia". Care to comment about my (and others') assertions regarding the connection between the DNC, Al Gore's book, and the Unibomber or ELF?

[Art Eatman]

Brownie, one biographical news article on McVeigh included the datum that he was apparently "into" racist literature while in the Army, long before he ever approached a militia group.

A couple or three years back, there were some news reports of young people from some of the more radical backgrounds/families joining the Army in order to get the training. The idea was that the knowledge would be useful after they finished the term of enlistment. One would thus be forced to categorize all ex-GIs as potential problems since we don't know which GIs fit into some "bad" group.

Aside from the legality or the morality of playing Big Brother, the idea of surveilling all militia groups on the off chance of finding a potential nutcase is not at all cost effective. To date, no open-to-the-public militia has ever provided a problem. Sorta reminds me of the Hoover era, when the KKK membership was alleged to include more FBI people than actual racists. :)

Active hate groups are another matter. Active hate groups, however, are readily identifiable as to potential problems. In general, there is no real resemblance to what we think of as "militia", nor do they fit the implicit legal requirement of "good character".

Art

[brownie0486]

Art:
Good post,
agreed
Brownie

[Hutch]

Brownie, the connection to the militree is just as valid as your juxtaposition of him with "The Militia". Care to comment about my (and others') assertions regarding the connection between the DNC, Al Gore's book, and the Unibomber or ELF?

I guess not.

[Art Eatman]

One thing I've noticed at the local level of law enforcement is that the more competent LEOs have a pretty good idea about the character of many in a community, or in the area in which they patrol. There's a good bit of knowleged about who's a trouble-maker, or who's just jackin' his jaws with mouth music. This doesn't result from spying; it's mostly due to being out and around people over a period of time and being reasonably observant.

Seems to me that problems can arise when outsider LEOs--ATF or FBI, for instance--come in with preconceived notions and don't take advantage of the local knowledge that's available. I've seen this several times in my own area...

Art

[goon]

I was also taught how to effectively kill in the military as well. Never thought about doing an OKC bombing due to my hatred for the .govs though. That attitude was fostered by the militias

Violent people are violent people.
Many of us have had similar training, yet none of us would do anything like what was done at OKC.
I don't think that the militias cause anger against the government, I think that the actions of the government cause the militias.
If they hadn't gone on that whole runaway government power trip, there would not have been as many militia groups springing up all over during that period.
Militias are the effect, not the cause.

[ravinraven]

There is a movement that I've heard about called the Liberty Monitors or the American Liberty Monitors. This group's camo is the three piece suit.

They pick certain cases and observe if any BoR provisions have been busted in the govt's dealings with individuals. If a "true bill" is returned from their studies, the individual(s) who did it is/are in deep doo-doo.

For example, the various "forfeiture" actions where a suspect has his property stolen by the government before trial, say nothing about before conviction, is clearly unconstitutional. Unconstitutional laws have been allowed to stand by the government paid nine "stooges." Under these laws, your land can be grabbed if the government merely suspects that some other person unknown to you concluded a drug deal on it. The actions are money grabs and your lawyer fees will be astronomical if you try to get your property back. The LMs will "take out" the people who do any unconstitutional action against you.

They claim some successful "take outs" already.

The clearly unconstitutional "breathalyser" tests where you are automatically convicted of statutory DWI if you do not give evidence against yourself is another area of interest to the LMs. Participate in the unconstitutional "evidence" grab and you could be signing your own death warrant.

The LMs theory is that the people who do the anti BoR acts are easier to get at than the people who originate the laws. The king can't rob the peasants if the robbers keep dying.

I was approached by a member of the group because of noises I have made against the whole concept of predatory law enforcement against the honest work-a-day citizen. He was a bit too spooky for this old boy who used to be a "spook" on a SAC bomber so I respectfully declined his offer. Then I felt like I had betrayed the original people who created this republic. All talk and no action.

Has anyone heard of this "militia" movement? They sound dangerous to nobody but the rights grabbers.

ravinraven