[mindwip]

Quick question to those in the know, is there any software that can be used to build mechanical things with virtual real world physics.

Basically i have a few ideas for weapon platforms that i would like to build. But to save the hassle and time, i would like to build it in the virtual world first. Then if it can be done perhaps get paper work and lawyers and build it for real.


I am generally good with software but i have no idea what type of software i am looking for as you would find it viva google.


Thanks

Example i know that Maya can do this, set up rules for a world and then run them, water waves, wind, gravity ect. But are there others that are free? Or is it only Maya-educational version

[Gudis]

Solidworks?

[Kharn]

If I were designing a firearm, Solidworks would be the software of choice. Its the one I've most commonly seen in use at rapid prototyping shops, so it'd be easier to get your design built when it comes to that stage.

Kharn

[mekender]

there are many different virtual modeling programs on the market... unfortunately any of them that are really adequate to model thermodynamics and fluid motion are going to cost a whole bunch...

Maya is fine, but its not a true engineering program... i once had a buddy have me look for a copy of the software that he uses at NASA to model engines... the only place i found it was having it on sale for something like $25,000 a copy...

Solidworks would be a good start, but i would be afraid that it wouldnt be sufficient to fully test all the aspects of an idea in a true virtual environment...

plus with programs like that, the learning curve tends to be very steep...

im not trying to dissuade you, but there is quite a bit involved in what you are talking about doing...

[VARifleman]

you can do it with solidworks and cosmos. I wouldn't do it without both though.

[owen]

the virtual physics is the hard part. SolidWorks is good engineering software, and includes FEA in the midlevel and premium package.

Big problem with FEA; if you can't get napkin sketch numbers with a reference book and a calculator, FEA is worse than useless, its dangerous.

you can work out things like bolt thrust from SAAMI max pressure requirements, but if youneed things like port pressure, that's a heck of a lot harder to do.

[CDignition]

Soldidworks and a CNC machine..you can virtually test your stuff after making one and testing it for real..;)

Either that or Pro NC.. How much cash u got to spend??

[mindwip]

Thanks for the answers, Solidworks is looking good. 25,000 is a bit out of budget. I am hoping to get a free version if there are any or an educational/college discount.



virtual physics-thermodynamics and fluid motion, i am more looking to see if my design will work on a computer, at this point. I dont care about heat transfer and all the other stuff. I just want to know if it will mechanically work. Sort of like making 3 gears next to each other and if i move the first one will the 3rd move.


plus with programs like that, the learning curve tends to be very steep...

I am fairly fast at learning these type of programs with the aids of books and videos and online help forums. If i could get my idea to work i think it would fill a good nich in firearms.

[worker]

Free software (for Linux and windows)

http://www.constitution.org/comp/simtools.htm

SciLab is similar to MathLab (but free)

Robotics simulation toolkit built on top fo SciLab

http://rtss.sourceforge.net/


(i have not used any of this stuff)

[Bendutro]

You can get a Student copy of SolidWorks for $100. ProE is another, similar software package. You don't need simulated gravity to design a gun but you will need some basics in manufacturing. I can't say how many neato-keeno designs I've seen from students that are useless because they can't be built.
And yes, COSMOS is a neat development tool that cuts down R&D but nothing replaces an actual test. (Especially with composites!)

Kinda gives you a new respect for Smith, Wesson and Browning don't it?

[RP88]

you can do it with autoCAD if you have the mastery for it, but Solidworks is much more conventional for that kind of thing.

[Bendutro]

Parametric design software will make you throw rocks at AutoCAD.

[MIUper]

SolidWorks and SolidEdge are both good design packages; you can get Cosmos with Solidworks, but if you don't have the engineering background it can be dangerous, as previously posted.

If you are on a budget take a look at Alibre. It has most of the parametric tools that SolidWorks and SolidEdge have, but it is considerably cheaper. You can download the Express version for free to try it out. I've used it and it compares pretty well to the other two (I currently use SolidWorks at work, previously SolidEdge, ProE, and Unigraphics). You can also get an Algor add on for analysis if you need it.

Don't waste your money on AutoCAD, it is the most non-intuitive CAD package I've ever used.

[G T]

As someone who deals with AutoCAD on a daily basis, I believe it is the superior only to having Ray Charles draw in the desert with a plunger handle during a sandstorm. AutoDesk, the makers of AutoCAD, is the Microsoft of the CAD world: they're the elephant in the bathtub who makes an inferior product with useless "features" and they only dominate the market because they are the entrenched tool. They (intentionally?) make products whose files are incompatible between frequent version releases that come out every year. They have a family of CAD packages designed to help different disciplines (mechanical design, HVAC, architecture, etc) that generate all sorts of errors when loaded into the vanilla AutoCAD --- or, if you're really unlucky --- AutoCAD LT. I hate that program with a passion.

Rant off...

That being said, CAD, or computer aided design is something of a misnomer. CAD should be applied late in the development cycle, after the basic things have been worked out on paper. It should not be instituted as a crutch to make up for deficiencies in your own engineering knowledge. A properly designed and made gun is a good shooter and a pleasure at the range. A poorly designed or poorly made gun is a bomb. Considering you're dealing with pressures around 30,000 psi, you need to be very careful.

What you're really after is a finite element analysis tool to compute the stresses in the material. The relative motion of the components is actually pretty simple to compute on paper (though a bit tedious). CAD modeling hides too much of the underlying physics from you. Still, it's not as easy as firing up a program and drawing shapes. You need to understand different boundary conditions, the types of stress, material fatigue, system response, etc.

Once you understand the physics and become proficient in the software package of your choice, then you are a powerful designer. It helps to have a degree in mechanical engineering and even that is the barest of necessities. I'm not trying to dissuade you or insult you; I just want you to not get in over your head.

[mindwip]

Cool, well i have found a good program at the right price, Blender and its for free it seems to be able to do what i want. If it cant then i will get solidworks, figure its better to start with the free one.


Once you understand the physics and become proficient in the software package of your choice, then you are a powerful designer. It helps to have a degree in mechanical engineering and even that is the barest of necessities. I'm not trying to dissuade you or insult you; I just want you to not get in over your head.


I am going to be taking some engineering class soon, but as i said at this point i am not so much making the gun but seeing if what i have in my head can be made to work. Then I will see if others think it would "sell" then i would look into getting real plans into place and having people who know what there doing look it over and design it the right way.



ps also just found over 6 hours of videos to get me going! i got my weekend planned, and with my pistol instructor cert too i will not see the light of day!! o wait thats not good haha

[22-rimfire]

Auto Cad produces a skinny version of Auto Cad which is said to be compatible with Auto Cad call Autodesk. It runs around $100, I believe. So, as you skill level increases, the cad drawings can be imported into the full version of Auto Cad later (or so they say).

[Steve N]

GT, tell us how you really feel about AutoCAD. Come on, don't hold back now.

AutoCAD is fine for basic 2-D drawing. After that, you need Solidworks at a minimum.

[revjen45]

If you win the lottery go with CATIA V5. It's good enough for Boeing and General Motors.

[Boris Barowski]

I tried solidworks and it really is quite easy and intuitive. After a while you get in deeper and you can do some pretty advanced and cool stuff with it.

Also tried autocad and I just don't get it. It looks like it's a leading software package but is it really that hard to work with as it looks ?

so I'm quite pro solidworks :)

[owen]

The last time I used CATIA, I was unimpressed. It's one of those packages that you have to use everyday to be good at it. Take a month off, and you might as well go find the tutorials.

Although this was maybe 10 years ago (OMG) so things may have changed a bit since then.

I found the same thing with Unigraphics. If you aren't using it everyday, its very hard to be proficient.

The really nice thing about Solidworks is they pretty much stuck with the Windows OS standards, so the stuff you are going to use all the time is completely intuitive. In addition, they have set it to work with Office, so if you have offfice, you can drop sketches into your design journal directly, it uses VB if you want to automate repetive tasks. In fact, I once wrote a spring design script for coil springs. I could either define the geometry or I could specify the forces, diameter, and length, and it would optimeze everyting else, and because it was parametric, I could just change the spring properties, and the model would change accordingly.

the good old days. Now I work for the .gov, and I am only allowed napkins, which I have to throw over the wall to the drafting folks. Sigh.

[fspitzdorf]

I use Solidworks daily on a professional basis as a design engineer. For every day 3D solid modeling it is probably the easiest to use and best supported on the market.

The Cosmos package that comes with the versions below Office Premium is only usable for a single component and then the constraint, loading, etc details are severely limited.

Cosmos express will get you into ballpark... Cosmos works will get the ball in your glove. This is true for the FEA as well as the heat transfer and fluid dynamics packages.

Solidworks also allows you to perform simulation so that you can check the dynamics of the mechanism.

All sorts of bells and whistles. Modeling is one thing. Proper analysis of said model is a completely different ball game. Especially if the design could potentially cause serious injury or death to the user or bystanders.

[SSN Vet]

model in Solidworks.....run you structural analysis in Cosmos and then solid print your part on a dimension 3d printer for proto-typing and mold making.

[mindwip]

SSN Vet ..fspitzdorf- Do either of you know if you can import Models from other programs into Solid works. It sounds like it will do what i want, but for starting out Blender looks better for the modelling phase and basic testing. If there is reason to do more then that(read people like my idea and would want it) i can look into buying Solid works and its plug-ins.

[owen]

mindwip, generally engineering packages can talk to each other fairly well, and artsy programs can talk to each other fairly well, but engineering and artsy programs don't.

Blender is artsy. The primary issue is precision. If objects in an animation intersect, it isn't usally a big deal. In engineering its a huge deal, so the file formats used for engineering preserve precision.

It's not usually the case for art packages, and Blender is an art package. Now, if you want to model organic shapes, and make pretty animation, you absolutely do not want an engineering package.

[mindwip]

ahh i see thanks for clearing that up. That make 100% sense, i will get solidworks then.

[cbrgator]

+1 for solidworks
I work at an engineering firm that designs spinal implants and thats what we use here. I dont have any personal experience with it as I am in accounting but none of my engineering buddies have anything but good things to say.

[JohnL2]

Hmm. I remember watching a "This Old House" episode. They were visiting a toilet manufacturer and they showed a computer workstation with a 3D rendering of a new toilet design. The software actually showed how the "water" would flow out of the bowl down the drain. The engineers were actually trying to figure out maximum flow potential.
Little did I know that what I was looking at was most likely Solidworks. Engineering is hardly glamorous but I thought it was pretty neat.
I was slightly amused but totally impressed.

[carnaby]

-1 for solidworks. And for the record, it's MATLAB, not MATHLAB. MATLAB stands for "matrix laboratory," since Matlab's sole data type is a matrix.

I've always been a Pro/Engineer guy. I find it to be more intuitive, and it has superior freeform tools to Solidworks. I think it's academic version is cheaper AND you DO NOT have to be a student to get it.

When I used Solidworks last, a couple months ago, it hated my lack of a workstation graphics card. Never had any such problems with Pro/Engineer.

http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?ItmNo=30134903

Pro/E also comes with a lightweight FEA program, but if you aren't a specialist in FEA, then anything more powerful will likely be beyond you anyway.

[fspitzdorf]

Solidworks can open and import quite a variety of file formats. For the most part, if a part is designed in one program, say Solidedge or Pro-E and then imported into Solidworks you may very well lose the design structure (not true in all cases). In most cases natives are transformed to a generic solid model in the form of a step or iges file which is easy to open in multiple packages. But again it'll be a form with no design information as to how it was built.

Most CAD development companies have tiers of software. Take Dassault Systems for example. Solidworks would be their mid-tier software whereas Catia is their top of the line powerhouse.

Last time I purchased a copy of Solidworks it was in the neighborhood of $7500 per seat w/ 1 year service (free upgrades, patches, phone support, etc) Add on packages such as COSMOS Works I believe tacked on another $5K per seat.

For the record, the reason I use Solidworks is not because it is "better" than Pro-E (Pro-E rocks IMO) but because 90% of my customers and vendors use Solidworks for their design software so it is very convenient for us to communicate design information.

[kragluver]

For what I think you are after, check out ADAM. We use it for a number of mechanical design/simulation applications. It ain't cheap, but its powerful software.