looking for a .223 semiauto: Saiga??


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sernv99
May 31, 2008, 08:07 AM
I plan to get my father a semi-auto .233 next month. He likes my PTR-91 but he doesnt like the kick of it, so a .223 would be a good choice, to pluck the groundhogs and coyotes around his farm. I started to look at the Saiga .223 semi autos. Anyone have updated range reports? Reliability? I was also looking at a Wasr-3 from Classic Arms in .223 but not sure. Price would have to be under $450, I don't want to get him a pricey AR or Galil since it won't be used much, just in certain cases.

any thoughts?

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LKB3rd
May 31, 2008, 09:13 AM
I have a Saiga .308, and it is AK all the way. Very reliable, very simple, very easy to clean, maintain, and modify if he ever gets the bug. I have not seen any negative reports about any of the Saigas including .223. The accuracy is good on the AK scale, which means out to 300 yards or so you can hit man sized targets pretty reliably with practice of course.
I think it would be a great choice in your price range.

GRIZ22
May 31, 2008, 11:04 AM
My 223 Saiga shoots 3" or less at 100 yds with any ammo I've tried so far. I probably can get that down to close to 2" with a handload or finding the right factory load. It's been 100 % reliable with about 500 rds thru it. I have no intention of converting it to an AK configuration and am happy with the rifle as is for my purposes.

jhansman
May 31, 2008, 12:18 PM
Just purchased my Saiga .223 last night (R & R Arms, $275 + shipping) after much deliberation. I plan on doing the standard conversion for it, but living in Calif. limits what I can do to it and still keep it PRK legal. I was going to go with a Kel-Tec, but read far too many threads from owners who had problems right out of the box. No such complaints with the Saiga. AKs seem to be as solid a semi-auto as you can find, and lots of resources and vendors out there if you choose to make it a project gun. FWIW, I also researched the Ruger Mini-14, but I could not justify the high price for what I found out about its shortcomings.

Deer Hunter
May 31, 2008, 12:47 PM
Saigas are great rifles. Mine will shoot 3 inches at 100 yards with any ammo and my crappy aim. I converted mine from the standard configuration to "ak" configuration. It uses Galil mags.

A saiga would make a great rifle even in its stock configuration for ranch work. It's also half the price of a used Mini-14 and easily a third the price for an average AR-15.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x91/Captain_Kennedy/PB030008.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x91/Captain_Kennedy/DSC03737-1.jpg

Girodin
May 31, 2008, 01:40 PM
All my saigas have run 100%. I have much more faith in them than a century built WARS from classic arms. Alhtough I will add I have bought a couple of rifles from Classic and my experince with them was positive, save spending a whole day unsuccesfuly trying to get through to place the order.

The saiga is a great rifle and comes in well below your $450 limit. With a conversion it is still in your price range.

The only draw back would be if you absolutely wanted hi cap mags and absolutlely didn't want to do a conversion (which isn't too hard to do BTW).

For sub $450 a saiga is probably as good a semi .223 as one can find. I also prefer it to some of the .223s that cost more than it does.

sernv99
June 1, 2008, 12:32 PM
any reputable places online that sells these Saigas in .223, with at last a 18 inch barrel? I checked JG Sales but they dont list them.

chupacabrah
June 1, 2008, 12:55 PM
from my understanding, there is not much (if any) difference in accuracy between the 16.3" barrel and the 22" barrel.


I would definitely get the Saiga if I was going to get something chambered in .223. (mine is 7.62x39)
Classicarms.us used to have them
centerfiresystems
atlantic firearms, maybe?

rangerruck
June 1, 2008, 03:18 PM
if you want a easy, affordable rifle, the Saiga is great. If you want one that is allready converted for you, you can geta STG-2000 from Atlantic firearms.
They are quite nice as well.

rangerruck
June 1, 2008, 03:19 PM
I've only seen them in 16 or 22 inch.

sernv99
June 1, 2008, 08:33 PM
I didnt see any Saigas from Atlantic Firearms.....:mad: JG Sales doesnt have them either, only one or two online places that i'm unfamilar with....

MD_Willington
June 1, 2008, 08:44 PM
Atlantic does have some already converted ones... check out the Russian classic..

sernv99
June 1, 2008, 09:33 PM
ok i see it...but it's for $850....forget that....where are the Saigas for under $400???

wdlsguy
June 1, 2008, 09:48 PM
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/bargains/bargains.html

furyalecto
June 1, 2008, 09:58 PM
Here (http://ddsranch.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=586)

I have purchased from them before. Looks like there isn't too much out there in the way of .223 Saiga anymore. Glad I got mine when I did.

sarduy
June 1, 2008, 10:23 PM
looking for a .223 semiauto: Saiga??

yes

trstafford
June 1, 2008, 10:25 PM
Are you stuck on getting him a semi-auto? Check out a CZ 527 Carbine, it is light and probably much more accurate than any semi-auto. I love mine in 7.62x39. It is also easy to carry unloaded for safety since it has a magazine. It is also easy to scope mine has a 2-7 Leoupold compact.


http://cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=15

rangerruck
June 2, 2008, 01:55 AM
Don't forget to look at the stg 2000's as well, on Atlantic, under the ak 47 style weapons. The bbl is made on Steyr machinery, very nice!!!

azhunter12
June 2, 2008, 02:49 AM
I just ordered the .223 saiga with skeleton stock from Centerfire Systems. I plan on just selling the stock because I have an ACE folder already to put it on the day I get it(welllll I might shoot it before I convert)

guntotinguy
June 2, 2008, 03:51 AM
All my saigas have run 100%

Mine too,I have several Saigas and my .223 is one of my favorites...never a FTF and seemingly accurate enough.I say the Saiga .223 is well worth the funds to buy it.

Zouave Rifle
June 2, 2008, 11:06 AM
Why not get him a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle?

LKB3rd
June 2, 2008, 12:19 PM
I've only seen them in 16 or 22 inch
Pretty sure that is all they come in, unless you want to buy the longer one and shorten the barrel.

Tarvis
June 2, 2008, 12:36 PM
FWIW: I've seen used mini14's go for $375; I got mine for $400. I think the mini is easier on the eyes than the saiga. Also, factor in magazine prices (if he wants more than two). Mini mags can be had for cheap, but I've had a few problems with the cheap-o's I bought. I have zero experience with the AK platform so I am biased.

Deer Hunter
June 2, 2008, 01:33 PM
Mag prices?

My saiga's mags can be had for 12 dollars a piece. $10 if you get the 12 round mags.

Tarvis
June 2, 2008, 01:43 PM
I wasn't sure what saiga mags were going for, figured they were probably cheap.

LKB3rd
June 2, 2008, 02:21 PM
Generally the common aftermarket mags are not cheap. Around $40 for the surefire or FBMG mags. I have heard of people modifying the magazines and/or the Saiga to use more common milsurp type mags, for a lot cheaper. This also unfortunately brings 922r into play, and you'd have to change out some Russian parts for US made aftermarket parts to bring it into compliance.
For a Saiga .223, I think you can get Galil magazines to work modifying the magazines only.

Girodin
June 2, 2008, 03:01 PM
Why not get him a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle?

He wants to keep it under $450 that excludes the mini. Even if he was willing to spend more there is no reason to. The Saiga is hundreds of dollars less even after converison and customization.

The Saiga is more accurate than the Mini.

One can get parts and easily repair a Saiga (if it were ever needed). One must send the mini to ruger for even minor fixes. The need to have the ruger fixed is also much more probable than the need to repair a Saiga.

Mags for a converted saiga are much cheaper and are more readily available than those for the mini. I recently saw galil mags that will work with a bullet guide and some filing for $12 a piece.

All of the above is still true even with the new and "improved" minis. The only difference is that the price difference is even greater.

Niether the manufactures nor the importers of the Saiga have tried to sell out your gun rights for their own greedy purposes.

Siaga>Mini 14 it is really as simple as that. So really the question is why pay hundreds more for a mini? I have never seen a real compelling answer to the question of "why a mini?"

I may be mistaken but even the use of surefire or other such mag will run you afoul of 922 if the capacity is greater than 10 rounds. The higher capacity removes it from its sporting rifle category and thus the 922 rules come into play. Some one correct me if I am wrong (I may be) but that is my understanding. Thus there is no real difference between surefire et al. mags vs surplus mags save what it takes to get them to work and the cost.

kBob
June 2, 2008, 03:15 PM
My understanding is that using 'Merican made magazines counts as three parts: magazine body, base and follower.

But I would think you would still have a total of too many ferrin' parts on a Siaga and it is the number of 'ferrin parts that makes the difference, so yes, do not stick any high cap magazine in a siaga would be my bet. Not owning one it is not an issue for me.

-Bob Hollingsworth

LKB3rd
June 2, 2008, 03:25 PM
My understanding is that using 'Merican made magazines counts as three parts: magazine body, base and follower.

But I would think you would still have a total of too many ferrin' parts on a Siaga and it is the number of 'ferrin parts that makes the difference, so yes, do not stick any high cap magazine in a siaga would be my bet. Not owning one it is not an issue for me.

-Bob Hollingsworth


*Double check this, it is from memory
I think you need to swap out 4 of the qualifying Russian parts for domestic aftermarket parts on a Saiga to bring it into compliance, which will allow you to add EBR(evil black rifle) features to it. Normal/High cap mags and a pistol grip are the most common.
Fire control group= 3 foreign parts, magazine=3 parts, the butt stock, hmm. The front grips count as one part, etc. There are more but that is what I can think of off the top of my head. You can google up lists.

MD_Willington
June 2, 2008, 07:29 PM
Yep I have 10 of those $12 Galil magazines too.

Expensive, only if you buy the newer Surefire magazines.


Yep the Saiga rifles have 14 countable parts... ditch 4 or more and your in the happy dance zone...

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