When Did Auto Loaders Become Prevalent?

[Treo]

We have a network that plays all retro T.V. (including comercials) all the time. & I've been noticing that almost everyone in these shows carries a revolver. A notable exception is Thomas Magnums 1911. I even noticed the other night I was watching Dan Akaroid's "Dragnet" & every one in that was carrying revolvers. So when did the Auto Loader become prevalent? late 80s? Mid 90s? When?

[BrianB]

Yep. Seems like late 80's/early 90's. I noticed a lot more when two things happened:

1. The military/police adopted the Baretta
2. Police began to adopt the Glock

Hollywood made changes around then too. Call it the "Lethal Weapon" effect. 16 shots makes for better action scenes, and more "believable" infinite ammo supplies.

[Geronimo45]

During the Wonder-Nine years, I reckon... which were around 1980 (at least the Glock 17 was). Glock's reliability marketing of "Perfection" helped with semi acceptance, I expect. People thought they were just as reliable as revolvers - with two-to-three times their capacity. Pure win from their perspective.
Don't forget the Bren Ten in Miami Vice.

[TAB]

When the LEA started going to autos...

[Treo]

I think the Lethal Weapon comment kinda nailed it. I remember a scene in LW1 where Mel Gibson even kids Danny Glover about being an old fart for carrying a "wheel gun"

[hamourkiller]

I loved IT! I picked up 2 Mod 27's and one Mod 28 and 3 Mod 19's durring those times! Yes! Average price 225 or so. People could not get rid of them old fashioned revolver guns quick enough.

[GRIZ22]

The military started going to autos in the early 1900s (P08, 1911, etc). Law enforcement started changing over in the mid 1980s and by the mid 90s the auto just about totally replaced the revolver.

[Comanche180]

In answer to the question, it depends on where you are and what you do. The police in the US were stuck on revolvers for a long time until relatively recently. In Europe semi autos have been popular since very early in the 20th century; FN/Browing 1910 then High Power, Mauser 1910,1914, 1934 and many others. Then there is that thing known as the 1911.

The Beretta M9 replaced the 1911, both semi autos.

Don't use tv programs and movies as a measure of anything.

[.38 Special]

The rise of the autoloader is inversely proportionate to the emasculation of man.
:neener:

[Jason_G]

The rise of the autoloader is inversely proportionate to the emasculation of man.
LOL.
So mathematically speaking, what is the exact value of the emasculation constant? :p

Jason

[jaydubya]

Whatever the 'emasculation constant' is, it resides in two large metropolitan areas north of Orange County, CA.
Cordially,
Jack in Sandy Eggo

[The Lone Haranguer]

As police sidearms? Roughly the early 1980s.

[Treo]

The reason I brought this up, as I mentioned earlier, is this new "retrovision" which is very similar to turning on the T.V. and stepping 25 years back in time. I noticed while watching Magnum P.I. the other day that even as late as 1985 use of revolvers was almost MONOLITHIC . all the BGs had 'em all the cops ( oddly enough they all appeared to be the same model as well) Only Magnum ever displays an autoloader. The original Terminator was the same way Terminators .45 was portrayed as a very state of the art advanced weapon. On the A-team tonight there were M-16s, Uzis, FALs , of course the A-Team's magic Mini-30s. But only Hanibal & one of the bad guys carried Autoloaders ( Hanibal at one point identified his as an 8 shot 9mm W/ a hollowpoint in the chamber). I didn't really notice anyone carrying an autoloader until Lethal Weapon maybe Sudden impact.
Anyway that's what really struck me was to see EVERYONE W/ revolvers.

[ylapirrynag]

I would assume it is easier to spray with a high clip size autoloader while holding it sideways when gangsters are driving.

[Cel]

The original Terminator was the same way Terminators .45 was portrayed as a very state of the art advanced weapon.

Speaking of Terminators did anyone notice the large amount of 1911's in Terminator 2: Judgement Day?

[justsurvivingincalifornia]

There are many reasons that cause Law enforcement to change to automatics. Some will tell you it was the FBI Miami shootout of 1986. In that event 2 FBI agency were killed and 5 were injured by gunfire. On the other side of the law many gangster or some would call them gangbanger, used automatic to spray bullets at people they were try to kill. LEOs needed the 9mm, 45auto and 40cal just to keep up with the bad guys. It took their management-leadership just that long to catch up with the technology.

[Ala Dan]

Here in Old Dixie'Land, autoloaders were seen riding in police duty holsters
as early as the late 70's; with the first major 9m/m in use being the S&W
model 59. This started the "wonder nine" craze; but not everybody was
sold on the double-stack theory, and some officers opted for the first
American made DA first shot 9m/m- in the form of the S&W 39/39-2. ;)

Of course, the U.S. Military had long since been using the .45 caliber
1911; before the S&W guns were a twinkle in the engineers eye~!

[Majic]

2. Police began to adopt the Glock
LEOs carried 3rd generation S&W autos long before the the Glocks came to town.

[RickH]

I remember watching old movies as a kid where all the good guys, usually cops or private eyes, used snub nosed .38s. The bad guys often had Lugers. I could never figure out why the bad guys got the neat guns.

[Jason_G]

Whatever the 'emasculation constant' is, it resides in two large metropolitan areas north of Orange County, CA.
Cordially,
Jack in Sandy Eggo
LMAO! It's funny, but it ain't...

Jason

[rcmodel]

LEOs carried 3rd generation S&W autos long before the the Glocks came to town.+1!
And they carried 1st. & 2nd. gen S&W autos before the 3rd. gen S&W came along!

The Illinois State Police for one, adopted the S&W Model 39 in 1967.

Fully 15 years before the first Glock was invented.

rcmodel

[Defensory]

Glock wasn't even the first polymer pistol.

The Heckler & Koch VP70 came out in 1970, while the Glock 17 didn't come out until the early 80's.

[loop]

I think the popularity really came about as an outgrowth of what we once called combat pistol matches. I remember shooting a few before IPSC was founded in 1975.

Back then we were tuning our .45s, mostly Colts, to be accurate and reliable enough to handle the matches. We also included what we called falling plate (just steel plates that you had to knock over) and bowling pins in the early matches.

But, if you were going to be competitive your .45 had to work every time you pulled the trigger and be accurate enough to hit bowling pins in the center shot after shot.

At the time revolvers were much more popular for self defense because there wasn't much difference between carrying eight rounds of .45 and six of .357. And, revolvers were generally more accurate than autos.

I think thousands of shooters tuning their .45s and proving they were reliable and accurate opened a lot of eyes. Then along came the high-cap 9s.

IPSC was formed in 1975. I think its growth probably parallels the popularity of the autos.

[tipoc]

This is a good question and as I see it the answer is kinda complex and touches on a number of developments some of which have already been mentioned. This is the short answer...

Up till the late 70s or 80s the U.S. was a nation of wheelgunners. In Europe it was different there the pistol had dominated from the early part of the 20th century. Walther, FN, Berretta, Gabilondo y Cia (and the other Spanish makers), Sauer, Mauser and many others had been producing quality self loaders for decades for military, police and civilian use. The Luger, the Walther P38, PP and PPK, the Sig P210, the BHP made by FN, the Radom Vis, Mauser HSC, Berretta's various products, etc. all were wide spread and some imported into the U.S. but with high tariffs that raised their prices.

I have a copy of Guns Illustrated from 1973 here. Under the heading of "U.S. semi-automatics" it lists the Colt 1911 GM and Commander (a Gold Cup National Match was MSRP $189.95). It lists the Hi-Power which was actually made in Belgium. It lists the S&W M39 (MSRP $128.00 for the nickled version). It lists many of the great .22s and a number of hideout guns in ,25, .32 and .380 from a few manufacturers. But other than the 1911 and the M39 it lists no other pistols made by U.S. manufacturers in a service caliber. None.

The same book lists under the heading "Imported Semi-automatics" many of the European made pistols mentioned above. A Walther P-38 was $129.00. A Sig P210 250.00. H&K P9S $179.00. Stars and Llamas were plentiful.

Other than the 1911 no major American manufacturers made any semis in a service caliber till after the second world war. None made a gun in 9mm till after the war.

At the end of the war the U.S. military flirted with the idea of dumping the 1911 and moving to a lighter weight, alloy framed sa/da pistol in 9mm. This prompted Colt to introduce the alloy framed Commander in 1949 in .45 acp, 38 Super, and 9mm. S&W came up with the M39 in 9mm in 1954.

Colt and S&W dominated the market for revolvers and semis. They counted on tariffs to keep imports out.

Semi's, other than the 1911 were looked on as foreign. Not American. Revolvers were American. This is why in movies and TV, in general,the bad guys had semis and the good guys wheelguns. Unless the good guy had a 1911.

Good rounds were available for hunting with a wheelgun or for self defense. Only ball ammo was available for a semi.

The 1911 had a decent number of fans but mostly bullseye shooters. The 1911 was widely considered a good gun for military purposes but most folks didn't need one and it was big, heavy and could be unreliable many thought.

Post war prosperity allowed many more people to get into the shooting sports. Demand slowly grew for more and varied guns. By the late 70s defensive shooting competitions began, spearheaded by folks like Jeff Cooper who championed the 1911.

Political and social conditions by the mid 80s were such that law enforcement in the U.S. began in large numbers to transition to semis and the 9mm. SWAT teams showed up for the first time. S&W, which already had a hold in the LEO market, began to respond the a threat to their dominance by introducing the first U.S. made double stack 9mm the M59 in 1982. S&W introduced their second generation semis in 84. Than Glock showed up and beat S&Ws price point. The military transitioned to the M9 (Berretta 92) and it was all over but the shouting.

In movies and TV Glocks, and Berretta's began to show up. Later Sigs. Pistols became sexy and cool. Revolvers a stamp that one was "old school". This took about a decade to happen.

Maybe someone can compare the guns used on Starsky and Hutch from 1975-79 to those used on Miami Vice '84-89 and see the difference a few years made.

tipoc

[RustyShackelford]

To me, the big push for US semi auto pistols started with the US military/DoD selection of the "new" M-9 Beretta 92F 9mmNATO. ;)
This big pistol led the way for more sworn LEOs and armed citizens to buy/use 15 round+ type handguns. The Browning High Power and 1911a1 .45acp were popular but ammo selection was limited and many US marksman did not trust semi auto pistols, compared to other well made proven designs like the S&W model 19/66 or the Colt Python.
Popular films like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon increased the public interest in the 92F 9mmNATO too. The Beretta was large and looked very impressive. The SIG Sauer P-226 and P-220 models then later the Glock 17 9mmNATO started to grow as more pistols were used/fired...

Rusty S

[jaydubya]

Tipoc wrote: Semi's, other than the 1911 were looked on as foreign. Not American. Revolvers were American. This is why in movies and TV, in general,the bad guys had semis and the good guys wheelguns. Unless the good guy had a 1911. Good rounds were available for hunting with a wheelgun or for self defense. Only ball ammo was available for a semi.

Excellent analysis, especially the last sentence: "Only ball ammo was available for a semi." As a result, only .45 was considered sufficient ammo; 9mm was for those who like to punch tiny tunnels through people, perhaps several at a time (As in that Indiana Jones movie). The Browning High Power, put on the market in 1935, was the first autoloader with a double stack magazine (Grande Puissance was intended to be translated, "high capacity" not "high power"), but it required ball ammo to load reliably. So ho hum, wimp gun. Then in the eighties, effective, reliably-loading hollow point bullets became available for autoloaders (this required design change of the pistols as well as the cartridge), suddenly the advantage of the revolver's powerful hollow point cartridges was lost to high capacity autoloaders carrying powerful hollow point cartridges. And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff, appeared on the market. Did someone just whisper, "Glock?"

Personally, my T-series BHP (with a polished feed ramp) still is the best of the autoloaders; bought it in 1967. But Glocks are right up there.

Cordially, Jack

[makarovnik]

Mid-80's. Magnum PI and Miami Vice era. Sledge hammer did carry a .44 magnum revolver though. You guys remember him don't you?

[hhb]

I think the tide started when the Illinois State Police adopted the S&W model 39 9mm in the late 60's.

[Pilot]

The bad guys often had Lugers. I could never figure out why the bad guys got the neat guns.


The bad guys often carried Lugers or P-38's. The reason being, during the Cold War, TV and movie's wanted to depict the Eastern Bloc bad guys and spies as ex-Nazis or like ex-Nazis. The East German connection was often played up. It was unusual to see good guys with these guns but it did happen in shows like "The Man from U.N.C.L.E."

[Phil DeGraves]

The Browning High Power, put on the market in 1935, was the first autoloader with a double stack magazine

No, both the Mauser 1896 "Broomhandle" and the Savage 1910 had double stack magazines and preceded the HP by decades.

[BlindJustice]

The 1930s was preceded by:
First Semi-Auto with Double Action First shot the
1929 Walther PP later the PPK
.380 Auto Blowback but Police in Europe used em.
1935 - JMB's successor finishes the design adding at
the French request for the first full size
High Capacity 9mm Luger
Browning Hi-Power
THen Walther and the
P-38

In the USA we had a lot of Epic, "B" movies, and Westerns on
the TV TOOB. Colt SAA. No wonder Europe doesn't have the revovler
heritage, no big revo maker - they do prize S&Ws.


Speaking of, I SPy Kelly RObinson (Robert Culp) used a P-38 and
ALexander Scott (Bill Cosby) used a Colt Commander which
like Tom Selleck's Magnum was a 9MM that's what they use for blanks
in Hollywood.

Movie Ronan - De Niro's the older U.S. Agent and asks the french secret
police for a 1911 and gets called grandpa. Later on he does a nice series of double taps and reloads and continues.

TheBrits used the contract S&W, COlt as well as the old Webley revos until sometime after WWII the BHP served them well.

Let's see I have 4 S&W Revolvers, and two semi-autos, a S&W 1911 and a recently aquired CZ 75B - the wonder 9 that was in high demand for a low supply until the Iron CUrtain fell.

[jaydubya]

Phil DeGraves wrote: both the Mauser 1896 "Broomhandle" and the Savage 1910 had double stack magazines and preceded the HP by decades.

Didn't know that. Thanks.
Cordially, Jack

[RustyShackelford]

I think because most US ammo in the 60s/70s/80s was not so great, :uhoh: the revolvers(mostly the old warhorse, .357magnum ;)) stayed in the hands of most LEOs/armed citizens. When more semi auto pistols were made/sold improved loads were designed and then the pistol replaced the 6 shot Rooney guns.

Fun gun fact; In the first Dirty Harry film, 1971, the prop dept used a big N frame .41magnum not a .44mag, ;). In the DH films, the propmaster/Clint Eastwood would carry/hold different sizes of the model 29 .44magnum too. ;)
For example, Eastwood would wear a 6" barrel model 29 in a shoulder holster but point a big 8 3/8" N frame in close ups.

Rusty

[Mk VII]

I wouldn't necessarily use Hollywood as a guide to social trends of this type.

It's a lot easier to make revolvers work with blanks than autos .

[Drail]

Don Johnson on Miami Vice singlehandedly accomplished the big switch in one season. Don't you guys remember this show? Every cop in the U.S. suddenly decided they NEEDED a magazine fed weapon. And Mk VII is right, getting Johnson's gun to function with blanks for one scene was a nightmare. If you watch closely almost every shot he fired showed a locked back slide that the camera quickly cut away from.

[RustyShackelford]

I bought a issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine in the mid-80s when Miami Vice was very popular. The magazine explained that Michael Mann wanted to use stainless steel and nickeled firearms as much as they could because they looked better on film, this is very true, ;). The news story also said the props dept would load blanks with higher muzzle flashes to look more dramatic. This factor combined with the less than stable semi auto pistols of the era, :uhoh:, may have led to the feeding problems/jams.

The series did have many cool gunfights/shooting scenes. I still remember Don Johnson's Sonny Crockett slide across a large mall floor shooting about 4 or 5 .45acp rounds at some jewelry store robbers. :D

Rusty

[Quoheleth]

Fun gun fact; In the first Dirty Harry film, 1971, the prop dept used a big N frame .41magnum not a .44mag,

As I understood it, it was actually a hand-built .44 Magnum, as all of the Maggies in the pipeline were already designated for customers. Give Smith credit, they didn't bump any "average joe" orders for the sake of H'wood!

But you know, even as late as the late '90s, on Walker Texas Ranger, Church Norris began the series with a revolver (686, maybe?) in a crossdraw holster, interestingly enough, but went to the autoloader about season 3 (Beretta 92-stainless, I think) that was at 3 o'clock on his belt.

COuplea observations...
Q

[akodo]

I remember eddie murphy carrying what I believe was a browning hipower in the first Beverly Hills Cop, when the two beverly detectives where both carrying revolvers, as were all the beat cops.

[tipoc]

What the flicks and TV did was reflect the change that was occurring in real life. They did not drive it.

On Dirty Harry, the actual story is that the director wanted a 8 3/4" M29 they could not find one so they settled for a 6". But it was always a M29 that was used in the films. Nothing hand built, not a .41 just a stock M29.

tipoc

[RustyShackelford]

I am almost sure it was a .41 magnum in the first Dirty Harry film but I'd have to research it. ;)

For the Chuck Norris TV series; Walker Texas Ranger, I think Ranger Walker started with a N frame stainless .44 S&W 629 model or maybe a 627 .357. Norris had to switch weapons because of a dispute with the film producers of LoneWolf MacQuade who claimed Chuck Norris stole the Texas Ranger character from that film for the new TV show, :scrutiny:. The first Walker film was a TV pilot/movie called; "One Riot, One Ranger", www.imdb.com . Norris later used a Taurus PT-92 stainless and then a S&W pistol. I'm not sure if the were 9mmNATO or .40S&W. I could tell it was a Taurus because of the frame mounted safety, ;). Why Norris had Walker use the smaller S&W pistol in later seasons I do not know either. Maybe it was easy to carry and did not get in the way in fight scenes like the other sidearms, ;).

Rusty

[BlindJustice]

Hey these DIrty Harry stories are urban myth.... it has been de-bumked
by S&W Historian Roy Jenks - Eastwood used a Model 29 .44 Magnum and at the time it was filmed it was at least 15 years before S&W changed from
making 29s with the 6 1/2" Bbl. to a 6" Bbl. The longer barrel 8 3/8" was NOT used - funny what some camera lens leads the imagination.

Randall

[tipoc]

Blind Justice is right on the barrel lengths, I mistated my fractions.

tipoc

[RustyShackelford]

I heard this from a video with disgraced Second Chance founder Richard Chance many years ago and if S&W expert Roy Jinks explained this fact then I'd think it's true...

I loves my HighRoad.org :D...

RS

PS: There is no way you can tell me Eastwood's Dirty Harry does not have a 8 3/8 inch .44magnum in some scenes/movie stills. I think it's the big 8 3/8" barrel .44 in the movie poster/ad for The Dead Pool.

[Defensory]

My guess is that they used the 8 3/8" barrel for at least some of the publicity stills, posters etc.

But in the actual Dirty Harry movies, I'm pretty sure he carried only the 6.5". The photo below clearly looks like the 6.5:

http://lebunny.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/harry_callahan.jpg

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well said, tipoc.

H&K P9S $179.00

Now that just stings.....

[akodo]

Jaydubya writes Then in the eighties, effective, reliably-loading hollow point bullets became available for autoloaders (this required design change of the pistols as well as the cartridge), suddenly the advantage of the revolver's powerful hollow point cartridges was lost to high capacity autoloaders carrying powerful hollow point cartridges. And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff, appeared on the market. Did someone just whisper, "Glock?"
I could have swore I heard Beretta and Smith 39, not glock.

Browning Hi-Power set the type as the first high capacity semiauto handgun *
Smith and Wesson has the insight to make it double action, combining their model 39 with the HP magazine to be the model 59 however, it was the Beretta 92 that really was the 'And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff'

It was Smith 59s and Beretta 92s that did most of the replacing of old model 10 and model 19 wheelguns.

Glock didn't intorduce the first successful double stack 9, their claim to fame is basically copying the desired features of the Beretta 92 and the Smith 59, but making heavy use of polymer. Glock was Step 3, Browning was Step 1, Beretta 92/Smith 59 was Step 2.

I suppose we can turn back to Smith and Wesson for Step 4, emergence of the 40 SW



*Ill also include "decent cartridge handgun" to skip the Savage 1910 which was a double stack 32acp and ill also include "magazine-in-grip" to differentiate it from mauser of the day which had a top loading magazine in front of the trigger guard"

[2ndamd]

If you look at the BOJS (Bereau of Justice Satistics) Homocides were gradually decreasing in this country for many years.

Then, BAM! In 1985 the homocide stats are shooting straight up (no pun intended).

What happen in 1985 to warrent such a dramatic rise in homicide deaths?

Crack cocaine. But, it was not the new drug itself that was casuing the deaths. It was the un-organized distribution and fighting of gangs to control it's distribution that lead to these deaths.

Same thing happen during prohibition. Many bloody battles over who was going to control the booze .... money....power..... judges and .....politicians.

I could go on and on. But suffice it to say that LE felt outgunned and their perceived need for more "firepower" lead the transition to autos. In particular DA autos with hi-capacity magazines.

I always liked Sherriff Jim Wilson's comments on this. He said [if you ever are attacked by the fabled biker gang. The appropriate response is to reverently repeat "feet don't fail me now!" :)]

The un-organized distribution of crack cocaine and the resulting rise in homocides does make one think of the Mafia's organized efforts in regards to opiate based drugs, the Biker's control of Meth based drugs, and the Columbian/ Cuban connection with Cocoa based drugs.

That is a topic for another day.

[Archie]

It didn't happen all at once. Tipoc does a very good job of an overview. I remember it slightly different, but probably not enough to argue much.

Some highlights.

1927-1928, Colt introduces the Super .38 Automatic in the 1911 frame. This was directed toward lawmen, specifically the FBI, to shoot at cars with heavier than before bodywork. A small uptick in autopistol use by individual lawmen. One notes FBI SA Melvin Purvis was carrying a Colt Government Model in .45 ACP when John Dillinger was apprehended/killed.

The Illinois State Police adopted the S&W M39 as a duty weapon in the late 1960s. I think that was the first major law enforcement agency to issue semi-autos.

1980s gave rise to many TV shows showing heros carrying semi-automatic pistols. Most of the change was based on the 'shooting sports' of men like Jeff Cooper and others; the producers and directors were striving to be 'cutting edge'. This sort of thing impresses watchers, including cops and bureaucrats who really don't know that much about guns in the first place.

1992, Los Angeles Police Department changed from double action revolvers to Model 92 Berettas. This resulting in a three fold increase in shots fired to accomplish the same number of offenders wounded the same number of times.

In general, Europe was far ahead of the United States in adopting semi-auto pistols. This primarily because their revolvers really, really stank. The European never could make a double action revolver as elegant and functional as the Smith and Wesson. The Webley was a good contender, but all in all, just didn't measure up.

As mentioned, the only serious defense semi-auto pistol in the US was the Government Model. The GI 45 was seen by many as having 'fierce recoil' and being unreliable; neither accusation being particularly valid. Still, it intimidated many for a long time. The next semi-auto pistol available in the US was the Browning High-Power. It was somewhat suspect, being foreign made by the Belgians. Smith and Wesson introduced the Model 39 in the middle 50s. It was another 9x19 pistol - the Luger round - and seemed to many as a complex and mysterious gizmo. Not to mention the magazines could be lost and then were are you?

I really think most of the objections to autopistols were overcome or diminished by two factors: "Combat", later IPSC, shooting convinced many of the shooting fraternity and repeated exposure on television convinced the 'masses'. Like many things, it's all marketing.

Not many people accepted 'foreign' cars when they first arrived, either.

[skinewmexico]

I blame Sonny Crockett and the Bren 10.

[FEG]

however, it was the Beretta 92 that really was the 'And a very capable autoloading pistol, marketed by an equally capable sales staff'

It was Smith 59s and Beretta 92s that did most of the replacing of old model 10 and model 19 wheelguns.

The book CZ-75: Birth of a Legend is pretty telling in this regard. I do not remember the exact phrasing, but the book goes to great lengths to explain the international market of the 1960s-1970s.

Basically, CZ-UB managment wanted to modernize and expand the Uhersky Brod facility to guarantee it would remain open. (After collectivization, several arms factories were converted to civilian production, only Uhersky Brod and Brno remained.) In order to do so, foreign capital would be required to expand into investment casting, etc. The obvious product was a 9mm handgun that would require adoption of the new equipment, techniques, and processes CZ-UB wanted.

This was in the mid-1960s. Looking around the globe, CZ-UB recognized that 9mm was primed to become the world's dominant handgun cartridge, assuming it had not already done so. Problematically, there were still a lot of WWII surplus arms and ammunition available at that time. In other words, CZ had a plan, make a high capacity 9mm with DA capability, but no real market for it. This gave Koucy the time he needed to develop the pistol. It also gave CZ the opportunity to lobby for the changes needed at Uhersky Brod.

At this point in the book, the authors go to some length to explain that the CZ is more closely related to the S&W 1st generation autos than the SIG p-210. (Interestingly enough, the CZ 75 really does have a lot more in common with a S&W Model 59 than a SIG P-210.)

The CZ 75 was actually completed before the Beretta 92FS, but the authors make it very clear that the Beretta established the market for the CZ. That is, the success of the Beretta enabled CZ to sell its pistols to various nations and/or agencies that could not get Berettas (demand, politics, relative expense, etc.).

I thought this was very compelling reading for anyone who owns a CZ or is interested in the development of 9mm designs. Basically, CZ is saying that the Model 59 and 92FS paved the way for the acceptance of new 9mm handguns in the West.

[tipoc]

If there is one guy to blame it would be Jeff Cooper.

But it was bigger than one guy. During the same period the Europeans were dropping the smaller police sidearms in .32 and .380 and going to high cap 9mms.

Archie is right that here or there the confluence of factors can be argued but it was a combination of them that led to the transition. Response to the drug trade was one factor but the change effected even small out of the way police depts. The change towards the "militarization" of law enforcement began in the 80s and hasn't stopped. In his book "No Second Place Winners" Bill Jordan, writing in the early 70s opts as how the revolver is the best choice for law enforcement. The semi best for the military he thought. 15 years later fewer thought this.

tipoc

[LeonCarr]

When I went through the academy in 1994, we were the first class in which everybody shot an auto. All previous classes had at least one cadet shooting a wheelgun.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Defensory]

Massad Ayoob's 1987 book "The Semi-Automatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense", played a significant role in convincing many law enforcement agencies around the country to make the switch to semi-autos.

Ayoob explains and documents the decisive tactical superiority of the semi-automatic handgun in law enforcement and self-defense use.

Must reading for anybody interested in handgun self-defense, whether LEO or civilian.

http://www.amazon.com/Semi-Automatic-Pistol-Police-Service-Defense/dp/0936279079/ref=sr_1_11/104-0716655-3633502?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215034561&sr=1-11

[Defensory]

Posted by tipoc:
In his book "No Second Place Winners" Bill Jordan, writing in the early 70s opts as how the revolver is the best choice for law enforcement. The semi best for the military he thought. 15 years later fewer thought this.

Jordan's "No Second Place Winner" was published in 1965. The beginning of the end for revolvers in law enforcement use, occurred in 1967 when the Illinois State Police became the first major LEA to issue a semi-automatic handgun as a primary duty weapon (PDW).

Within about the next quarter of a century, virtually every major LEA in the country had adopted semi-autos as their PDW. Not to mention a substantial number of mid-size and small LEA's.

So Jordan's opinion that revolvers are the ideal for LEA's, has been relegated to second place by the vast majority of LEA's throughout the country. As Bill himself often preached, there are NO second place winners. ;)

[2ndamd]

I think you are taking Bill's title out of context.

Bill was NOT concerned with winning a popularity contest. Only winning a gun fight is what he is referencing. Just because some LEO "thinks" he is better served with an auto over a revo, does NOT make it true. It does NOT make it false either. It is who wins the gun fight not who sells the most guns. Bill comes from a time when men did not need alot of money to have honor, courage and gunfighting skills. Heck Bill Jordan didn't even have a laser on his gun GASP! Perish the thought. Howd' he shoot straight? :)

Bill outlined a great many advantages of the revo over the auto. And Bill was a real man that didn't take alot of crap from other people. Including Charlie Askins (sp?).

Remember their dual on auto vs revo? Bill kindly invited Charlie out behind the wood shed to settle-up. :)

They do not make 'em like Bill much anymore. A few of them still out their but, not many. Certainly "NO MAS" is NOT a Bill Jordan. Even Mas would say that.

Reading Bill's articles from the past and he would use Euphonisms to describe his activities on the boarder. Like: "I had to get his attention." That means I slapped him upside his head.
You know what I mean? Back when LEO could practice discretion.

[golden]

I remember as a teenager in the late 1970's, police departments went crazy over the S&W 59 with its 14 shot capacity. The model 59 was so badly designed that it almost killed the shift to autoloaders by itself. Many, many of these guns jammed, even when shooting ball ammo.

Still, many of the cops liked the large capacity magazines and when BERETTA started winning the military trials (over and over), departments took notice.

With BERETTA, GLOCK, SIG and the second generation SMITH & WESSON autos to choose from, revolvers were doomed.

Revolvers had problems besides limited capacity. They could jam or seize up if not taken care of properly. My agency had problems with 11 revolvers in my academy class of 48. They ranged from a torqued on sideplate (mine) to 2 guns seizing up on qualification line.
We also had revolvers (S&W model 13's) explode when using the 125 jhp load that was standard with the BORDER PATROL. It left a real bad taste with many officers.
They were also slow to reload for the average cop. Some NYPD officers would carry two guns and pull out the second instead of reloading.

At the same time, the 1911 based pistol competitions came on strong. Revolvers did not even compete in this league.

Also, many more street criminals began using guns and they went to autoloaders. So the cops demanded autoloaders to deal with them.

It was just a matter of timing.

Jim

[Defensory]

"When the Illinois State Police adopted the Smith & Wesson Model 39 semiautomatic in 1967, they were ahead of their time. They and other cops with revolvers of the period were hitting bad guys with about 25 percent of the bullets they fired in action. With the adoption of the 9mm auto, hit ratio skyrocketed to somewhere around 65 percent."

Massad Ayoob
The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, 6th Edition

[welldoya]

I had always heard it was because of the FBI shootout in Miami. The good guys ran out of ammo and were undergunned. It was after that when most police depts. started looking at semi-autos.

[Defensory]

Posted by welldoya:
I had always heard it was because of the FBI shootout in Miami. The good guys ran out of ammo and were undergunned. It was after that when most police depts. started looking at semi-autos.

The FBI shootout was the "coup de grace", but as golden mentioned, it was a combination of things.