How realistic is 600 yards with iron sights?


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MTMilitiaman
May 31, 2008, 08:38 PM
And what do I wish to accomplish here? I said to myself, huffing and sweating profusely as I finally reached my shooting perch and turned around. I can't even see the thing? Did the wind blow it over? I pulled up the only form of magnification I had, a 6x Nikon range finder, and scanned the power line maintenance road along the right side tree line. Nope. There is was. I pressed the button on the rangefinder and the invisible beam shot out, bounced back, and told me what I needed to know. Six-hundred-thirteen yards away the 16x32 inch silhouette target still stood erect, having been stapled to an old stump. I removed the rangefinder from my eye and squinted down range again. The 8.5x11 inch piece of standard printer paper with the 4 inch black circle wasn't nearly as visible as I hoped it would be, and the brown cardboard the target was cut from served very well to camouflage it into the environment. The whole thing was nearly invisible, in fact, and completely indiscernible from the dozens of other stumps that littered the tree line.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/600yardperch.jpg
(above) View from my perch with M1A. 600 yards down that power line maintenance road near the right-hand treeline is the target.

"Maybe I was a bit optimistic," I said aloud to myself as I plopped down in the sitting position and started adjusting the Tanner leather M1907 military shooting sling, "There's no way I am going to hit this thing...not even close."

I adjusted the elevation knob to "6," pulled the rifle in tight, with sweat dripping from my brow and heart still racing from the hike back up to my shooting perch after placing the target. At least it ought to be fun, I thought to myself as I picked out the shape I thought was the target, and reminded myself to focus on the fundamentals. Besides, I apparently need the exercise. Front sight, natural respiratory pause, slow, steady squeeze.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/600yardtargetfullzoom.jpg
(above) View from perch with camera at full zoom. The target is still barely visible, and my Mk I eyeball doesn't have the advantage of a zoom feature.

The first round broke with a "crack" that echoed through the mountains like a thunder clap. It being spring, the ground was too wet to show any dust at the bullet's impact. With no spotter to call for me either, I was truly on my own. I lined up the sights once more and sent nine more rounds down range--all of them S&B 147 gr FMJ. "Hmm," I wondered to myself as the bolt locked back on the last round, "now comes the fun part," already dreading the hike there and back. Still not sure if I had been shooting at the target or just another one of the many stumps, I contemplated saving myself the effort and leaving the target still stapled to the stump down range. If I hit it once, it'll be a miracle. But curiosity compelled me onward.

Imagine my surprise when the target revealed not just one, but two bullet impacts! I patted myself on the back and let out a congratulatory holler that also echoed through the mountains, and began the return hike back to my perch, the truck, and a Nalgene of water that I needed with increasing desperation in the 80 degree spring heat.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/600yardtargetrecovered.jpg
(above) Recovered 600 yard target, rangefinder, and the Springfield Armory M1A Loaded used to shoot it.

The whole event was really eye opening for me. As I sat there, still breathing hard, fighting the stinging sensation of sweat in my eyes, I couldn't help but think about the soldiers sucking that thin Himalayan air in Afghanistan, and being thankful that hit or miss, I didn't have to worry about return fire, and taking comfort of knowing I would be home in another hour or so. I know this test could never be considered realistic because of this. But I consider them more realistic than match shooting. I can remember shooting and qualifying at 500 yards with an M16A2 in boot camp, but the targets used were much larger, the range conditions were better, and we spent an entire week practicing for qualification. We also had spotters, and we were able to shoot prone. This was 100 yards further in range, on a more life-size target, with no practice or previous experience at that range with this rifle, beyond shooting at the occasional rock or stump during hunting season. I had no spotter, and vegetation prevented me from shooting prone. I had to make due slung up in the sitting position.

Overall, I am optimistic about my results. It was hard trying to make out that target at that range with the naked eye--much harder than I expected. But I learned that if you stick to the fundamentals, hits are possible, and with practice, I know I could do better. I don't know how practical shooting this range with iron sights is, especially under duress, but it is an interesting challenge that I highly recommend everyone attempt at least once.

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TAB
May 31, 2008, 08:42 PM
thats damn impressive...



I guess the old saying is true, if you can see it, you can hit it.

Harve Curry
May 31, 2008, 08:44 PM
That is a good shot!.
How often can you do that?

taliv
May 31, 2008, 08:53 PM
i'm not at all surprised that you and the gun could hit that. (although, in the future, i'd recommend a larger aiming black and a much large white area for contrast.)

I'll wager that if you'd been using match grade ammo, you could easily keep them all on the cardboard at that distance.

edit: still, nice job and looks like fun!

glockman19
May 31, 2008, 09:00 PM
IMHO the M1A is under rated. nice shooting. Yes it is very accurate in the right hands.

I have mine fitted with a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x40 that helps group them nicely at that distance too.

I love my Springfield M1A Loaded .

kcmarine
May 31, 2008, 09:02 PM
I wish I had a place like that to shoot. :(


That's awesome. :D

Don't Tread On Me
May 31, 2008, 09:03 PM
That is good.

If you can see it, yes, it can be hit. There's a lot of people that think that just because they made a 1/2" group at 100 yards one time outta 10 groups that's what they can do all the time and that it somehow applies to shooting at true long range. A lot of people would get a reality check if they actually shot their weapons at longer ranges. I see the results of most people at the range at 100 and 200 and that's enough to show that a 300 meter shot on a human-sized target is out of their league.

Figure. If your rifle can hold 2moa out to 600 ...which it should or better. And you can hold steady enough to shoot MOA ...at the very most your dispersion should be 18" which should good for multiple hits on a target like that. Correcting drop and compensating for wind is the real problem. Also, depends where the ammo zeros in relation to the sights and how coarse/fine the adjustments are. This makes a difference. On some sights, one click over puts you off the target on the other side...:uhoh: A lot of times they're no where near as fine as they advertise.

You also used S&B. Try 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match. Not only will it cut the wind a lot better, but it will shoot MOA or near-MOA in your rifle.

10 shots, 3 hits (that looks like two hits on the cardboard unless it is a key-hole??). That's not bad. That's a small target and this is the max effective range for this platform with iron sights. It's not a sniper rifle and you're not using optics. Not using match ammo either.

If you can get hits at 600 like that, anything at 300-400 is dead meat. And that is still a long combat range.


Good shooting.

ROMAK IV
May 31, 2008, 09:05 PM
I'm not really surprised. The NM sights make it easier, but even with NM sights, the target will be likely covered completely up.

O remmeber reading an article in SGN written by a former Soviet Spetznats that had served in Afghanistan. He mentioned how unnerved the Soviets always were when the Muhajadeen used Enfield rifles against them. They usually never even saw the shooter, but reacted by burning down the nearest town.

MTMilitiaman
May 31, 2008, 09:09 PM
10 shots, 3 hits (that looks like two hits on the cardboard unless it is a key-hole??). That's not bad. That's a small target and this is the max effective range for this platform with iron sights. It's not a sniper rifle and you're not using optics. Not using match ammo either.

I wasn't sure if that was two hits or one hit on the left hand edge. I figured the target was being bent around the stump that it was stapled to, and that attributed to the oblong shape of the hole. I'd like to think it was two hits, but I only counted it as one.

In the future, I am planning on shooting some match ammo through it. The longest actual range around here is 300 yards. But there is plenty of open and uninhabited space around here to shoot, as long as you're careful to check for houses and vehicles, and don't mind hiking your butt out there. In the future, I'll probably make sure the target is of greater contrast. That will make it less "realistic," but will make actually seeing the target a lot easier.

taliv
May 31, 2008, 09:10 PM
another point of interest is that it looks like you were shooting at a significant downhill angle, which normally means you should have hit high, and yet you hit low. if you were shooting level, you might have hit closer to the bottom of the stump

Brass Rain
May 31, 2008, 09:16 PM
Great shots! I wish I had a long, uninterrupted lane of flat ground to shoot down. This really makes me want to do some long range shooting.

Funderb
May 31, 2008, 09:19 PM
I wish there were anywhere easy here to shoot that far


oh and, 80 degree spring heat? psshhhh. I know montana can do better than that.

selector67
May 31, 2008, 09:24 PM
At the WW1 battle of Belleau Wood, marine riflemen were picking the Germans off at 800 yards with iron sighted Springfield 1903 rifles.

W.E.G.
May 31, 2008, 09:25 PM
Camp Perry.

600 yards.

AR15 with iron sights.

White disc on target signifies impact location.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/targets/240far.jpg

LKB3rd
May 31, 2008, 09:27 PM
Cool story, and well told and put together with the pictures too.

Funderb
May 31, 2008, 09:28 PM
yeah, those .223 went in sideways though. :p

MTMilitiaman
May 31, 2008, 09:43 PM
another point of interest is that it looks like you were shooting at a significant downhill angle, which normally means you should have hit high, and yet you hit low. if you were shooting level, you might have hit closer to the bottom of the stump

Downhill angle? Yes. Significant? Not really. The pitch off the side where I was perched is steep and goes down maybe 80 yards or so. Then there is a gradual downhill pitch on the road around the ridge on the right side of the first picture. After that, it levels out and gradually starts going uphill again.

So by the time you get out to 600 yards, the downhill angle is present, but not very significant. I would figure between 10 and 15 degrees, max.

As near as we can determine (using the MOA scale on the reticle of the scope) where the road switch-backs on the opposing hillside in the first picture is 2000+ yards away. I've shot a 48 inch tall plastic sled (purple) with my bro's AR-50 here about 1200 yards away. But I consider half the range with ball ammo and iron sights to be a bigger accomplishment.

oh and, 80 degree spring heat? psshhhh. I know montana can do better than that.

Yep. But hiking my out of shape butt up a mountain made it feel a little warmer.

At the WW1 battle of Belleau Wood, marine riflemen were picking the Germans off at 800 yards with iron sighted Springfield 1903 rifles.

I know. And my grandpa instructed a long range marksmanship class on a hillside in Korea using a 1903A3 and M2 ball ammo to score 3 out of 5 on a torso target from 900+ yards. I know it is possible. It is also difficult if you have little or no experience, esp under combat conditions, and I would be curious to know how many rounds my fellow Devil Dogs fired in that engagement for every hit that was achieved.

White disc on target signifies impact location.

I can remember scoring 9 out of 10 at 500 yards during pre-qual, but was pissed when I only managed 7 out of 10 during qualification. That was with M855 ball ammo and a beat up old A2 as well. Regardless, I wish someone was spotting and pulling targets for me here...

goon
May 31, 2008, 10:04 PM
Good shooting!
Damn right it's hard. If it wasn't, the Marines at Belleau Wood wouldn't be remembered for making hits like that.

Makes me do some thinking though - I have some power lines near me that may serve a similar purpose.

I think the sportsman's club that has the 500 yard range finally went under...

MTMilitiaman
May 31, 2008, 10:07 PM
Makes me do some thinking though - I have some power lines near me that may serve a similar purpose.


Just, obviously, try not to shoot the powerlines.

I hate it when people shoot up signs and powerlines and such. It reflects poorly on all of us, and since my dad has worked as a lineman most of his adult life, I know those poles are expensive and time consuming, as well as difficult and dangerous, to replace.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 31, 2008, 10:09 PM
Yep. Contrary to popular belief, that's a looooooong ways to almost most everyone in the world. Now "some" people can *ahem* shoot RUNNING targets at almost that far....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=364886

...amazing what internet shooters and their mythical "sebn mags" can do. :rolleyes:

Thanks for posting some realism, MT man! :) Good shooting, but (a) where in that 2nd pic IS the target, and (b) what magnif does your camera zoom up to?

bl4ckd0g
May 31, 2008, 10:21 PM
That is a an admirable group of shots on a target that my eyes could not discern without magnification. Since you did that, let's see you go even further! Have you tried to shoot a couple Palma style matches with your M1a?

I was trying to hit a soda bottle at 600 yards today w/ my .222 Rem rifle. Tried 800 hundred but soon realized that I was throwing rocks at that range. But that was with a retired BR gun and a quality scope.

rc109a
May 31, 2008, 10:29 PM
Wow!
That was great shooting. I was having a hard time seeing the target at 200yds with open sights. Great job.

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 12:11 AM
Thanks for posting some realism, MT man! Good shooting, but (a) where in that 2nd pic IS the target, and (b) what magnif does your camera zoom up to?

a) I don't have image editting software that will allow me to highlight exactly where the target is in the picture. The white piece of paper with the black dot is barely visible on the target. The target is to the right and a little below the second power line back, and appears about 1/2 an inch from the tree line on my monitor. If you follow the road to where it turns left to go between the two power poles, and track up and right from the curve, you should be able to see it.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/600yardtargetfullzoom.jpg

b) The camera is a 6.1 megapixel Kodak Z612. The zoom feature is described as 12x IS. Whether that is digital or optical, I don't know. Cameras really aren't my thing.

That is a an admirable group of shots on a target that my eyes could not discern without magnification. Since you did that, let's see you go even further! Have you tried to shoot a couple Palma style matches with your M1a?

I think I am a ways from doing that, but I appreciate your compliment.

I am in the process of moving and finding another job, so things are hectic for me right now. When I get moved in and settled down, I do want to make it to some Appleseed shoots, and try get involved in some two gun matches.

skinewmexico
June 1, 2008, 12:25 AM
Looks like you need to start shooting High Power.

Ridgerunner665
June 1, 2008, 12:28 AM
600 yards is very possible (as you found out)...think about those guys shooting the Creedmore matches over 100 years ago...and those were 1000 yard shots.

I have done some 600 yard shooting with my AR 15 (S&W)...and its not even a match barrel...here is a 10 shot 600 yard group shot with peep sights...4 missed the paper because "doping the wind" with a little .224 caliber bullet is new to me...I'm waaaay better with my 308 and 300 Win Mag. and a 24x scope.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/121_2173.jpg

taliv
June 1, 2008, 12:44 AM
cool, MT. from the picture, i figured it was closer to 30* angle you were shooting. at 15*, i figure you're only 1 MOA or so off. if it were 30*, you'd be closer to 3 MOA off.

you sure it's only 15*? was your elevation about the same as the opposite hill?

WayneConrad
June 1, 2008, 12:50 AM
It's the use of the shooting sling that makes this work. You've got a nice, stable sitting position. Nice work. For most, it takes the prone position to make the 600 yard shot.

RP88
June 1, 2008, 12:51 AM
well, to answer your topic question: it's realistic enough, apparently

taliv
June 1, 2008, 12:55 AM
dang, i missed the part about sitting! i thought that was prone! did you rapid fire that string? :)

goon
June 1, 2008, 01:32 AM
MTMilitiaman - I wasn't talking about shooting the powerlines themselves. Stuff like that gets people hurt and killed. Just plain inconsiderate.
But as you've shown with your pics, powerlines do provide long, hilltop to hilltop distances that are relatively clear of trees and obstacles.
And the PA hills make ready made backstops.

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 01:43 AM
cool, MT. from the picture, i figured it was closer to 30* angle you were shooting. at 15*, i figure you're only 1 MOA or so off. if it were 30*, you'd be closer to 3 MOA off.

you sure it's only 15*? was your elevation about the same as the opposite hill?

No, I am not sure about the angle. I was guessing. If I return there again, I may measure the inclination. I believe my grandpa has an inclinometer laying around somewhere that may be of use.

dang, i missed the part about sitting! i thought that was prone! did you rapid fire that string?

I would have loved to shoot prone. But in this area, foliage and blow down make it next to impossible to shoot prone. When we shoot my brother's .50 from here, we allow half an hour to forty-five minutes with axes and pruning sheers to cut down vegetation and clear a shooting lane. I didn't take that time today, so I compromised and shot from the sitting position.

I love the shooting sling and will insist on it on rifles that may see this kind of use from now one. I have a cheaper one on my hunting rifle, but it may be replaced with a Tanner by hunting season.

The first five or six rounds were fired with maybe twenty seconds between them. The last four or five were fired faster because my arm started going numb, and because I had settled into a groove where the front sight returned to the same place after every shot and therefore took almost no time to line up for the next.

MTMilitiaman - I wasn't talking about shooting the powerlines themselves.

I figured as much. Most people on THR don't strike me as ones who'd shoot powerlines. I just wanted to make it a matter of public record that I don't either.

M47 Dragon
June 1, 2008, 01:48 AM
You are a Marine. I would expect nothing less than good shooting.



Semper fi.

For Freedom
June 1, 2008, 02:56 AM
You ever get that GI extractor on?

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 03:07 AM
You are a Marine. I would expect nothing less than good shooting.



Semper fi.

OO-RAH!

You ever get that GI extractor on?

Nope.

Currently unemployed. I am in the process of relocating to greener pastures. When I get a job and get settled down, I'll be able to afford ammo to actually practice, and hopefully be able to get some of these other things I've been meaning to get.

Fortunately, she's a well oiled machine right now and doesn't appear to need anything, save for ammo.

EdLaver
June 1, 2008, 05:23 AM
I wish I lived some where I could go out into the mountains or hills and shoot at 600 yards and not have police and choppers looking for me. That would be a great experience, thanks for sharing the pics and story. I really felt like I was there with you from the detailed description...GREAT SHOOTING!

plexreticle
June 1, 2008, 05:44 AM
Scopes are over rated.

Blarelli
June 1, 2008, 05:44 AM
I would love to try some long distance shooting like that. I love longer distance shooting with pistols. I was so proud of myself yesterday. I hit 2 clay pigeons at 150 yards with my 22/45 and it only took 50 shots or so.:rolleyes:

dm1333
June 1, 2008, 07:11 AM
Your pictures made me miss the Northwest even more! I wish we had 80 degree heat where I am in Michigan not to mention mountains. Nice shooting though!

yakkingallover
June 1, 2008, 09:06 AM
first off congrats on those shots. Second your target was harder to find than Waldo,and I must say that when I can beg the fiancee into I am Montana bound...

Odd Job
June 1, 2008, 09:15 AM
Is this the target?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/600yardtargetfullzoom.jpg

kcmarine
June 1, 2008, 09:24 AM
a) I don't have image editting software that will allow me to highlight exactly where the target is in the picture. The white piece of paper with the black dot is barely visible on the target. The target is to the right and a little below the second power line back, and appears about 1/2 an inch from the tree line on my monitor. If you follow the road to where it turns left to go between the two power poles, and track up and right from the curve, you should be able to see it.


If you have Microsoft Windows, go to Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. Open the file that you want to work on, which would be that picture in this case. Select the paint brush (the program will pop up with a little label for the tool you're using if you leave your cursor over it for a while). Go to the little box full of colors at the bottom. Select red. Move up to the area around the target. Draw a circle around it. When finished, save it.


Now that I think about it, I'm gonna make a tutorial about that.

Glockman17366
June 1, 2008, 10:12 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!
I AM impressed!!!!!!!!

scrat
June 1, 2008, 01:06 PM
Wow excellent job. i looked very long and hard and after a long time finally figured out where youre target is. good job

Jeff F
June 1, 2008, 01:31 PM
Nice shooting. I have been shooting .303 British rounds at ranges like that for a lot of years, theres some pretty wide open country here in Nevada. Been a few times that I have even out shot some of my buddy's .308 scoped bolt guns with one of my iron sighted Enfields, oh what fun it is! If a man can shoot and he can see it, he can hit it.

MaterDei
June 1, 2008, 01:36 PM
Nice! Beautiful terrain.

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 02:05 PM
Is this the target?

Yep.

AR-15 Rep
June 1, 2008, 03:32 PM
Nice Shooting!!

Geno
June 1, 2008, 03:39 PM
Looks like you're ready to go to an apple seed. If you've already done so, looks like you're ready to qualify for apple seed instructor, and help others achieve this. :) Well done! Congratulations!

Your next investment should be a steel target to take with you. You have the space to drive in, so the target weighing 40 pounds shouldn't be problematic. Then, rather than walk down to see hits, just listen.

Doc2005

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 04:32 PM
Looks like you're ready to go to an apple seed. If you've already done so, looks like you're ready to qualify for apple seed instructor, and help others achieve this. Well done! Congratulations!

Never been to one, but it is on the "To Do" list. Things are just a little hectic for me right now.

Instructor? That's flattering. Just to be clear, people do realize that is ten shots with two hits, right? I am just saying I didn't expect such rave reviews for just hitting the target.

It's encouraging, because I am rusty as hell. I used to shoot on a regular basis, but I haven't been able to shoot a rifle hardly at all for months now--almost a year--so I am not near as good as I used to be. As soon as I get settled down again, get into a routine, and am able to afford ammo, I will be able to practice more, and then when I get myself up to what I know I can do, I will attend a couple Appleseed events and hope not to get too embarrassed. Instructor? I appreciate the suggestion, but I don't think I am ready to instruct anything yet.

Your next investment should be a steel target to take with you. You have the space to drive in, so the target weighing 40 pounds shouldn't be problematic. Then, rather than walk down to see hits, just listen.

The power company has the roads tank-tracked so gaining vehicle access is almost impossible. My theory is they got tired of people shooting their powerlines. It's sad that a few can ruin it for everybody, but that is life. So any targets have to be carried and placed by hand.

Still, I carried heavier stuff farther...

taliv
June 1, 2008, 04:35 PM
tank tracked? what does that mean?

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 04:45 PM
tank tracked? what does that mean?

Some people call them "Kelly Humps."

It is when a deep ditch is dug across the road and the dirt is mounded up in front of the ditch in order to make the road inaccessible by vehicles. Most vehicles that attempt to climb the mound end up high centered in the ditch. When a road or access point is to be permanently closed, as opposed to temporarily or seasonally closed with a gate, they use a Kelly Hump. In the Forest Service we also referred to as "tank tracked," because the obstacle apparently was used as a barrier against tanks in the past.

kcmarine
June 1, 2008, 04:59 PM
Hm... methinks an ATV or dirtbike would be a good way to counter those Kelly Humps...

Geno
June 1, 2008, 05:07 PM
Here's your next investment: :)

http://actiontarget.com/spt_pt_torso.html

That will have you 10 for 10 at 50 yards in no time.

Doc2005

hawkhavn
June 1, 2008, 07:51 PM
MTMilitiaman,

I don't know if yourealize it or not but this: "because I had settled into a groove where the front sight returned to the same place after every shot and therefore took almost no time to line up for the next." means you had found your NPOA. I'll second the recommendation that you get to an Appleseed and consider becoming an instructor. Your ability to accurately describe that setup and shot would indicate (to me) an ability to teach.

Any questions/concerns, contact me.

hawkhavn
RWVA Instructor

MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2008, 08:17 PM
MTMilitiaman,

I don't know if yourealize it or not but this: "because I had settled into a groove where the front sight returned to the same place after every shot and therefore took almost no time to line up for the next." means you had found your NPOA. I'll second the recommendation that you get to an Appleseed and consider becoming an instructor. Your ability to accurately describe that setup and shot would indicate (to me) an ability to teach.

Any questions/concerns, contact me.

hawkhavn
RWVA Instructor

If by NPOA you mean Natural Point Of Aim, then yes, I am familiar with the term. "Natural respiratory pause," "natural point of aim," and "clear sight-blurry target" were common phrases used by my PMI in boot camp. I swear, some days, it's all he said at all. I just found out 13 or 14 years ago when I started shooting more than rimfires with a growing interest in hunting and long range rifle shooting that good things happened if you could shift your body rather than the rifle so that it just settled into place and you didn't have to fight with it. I don't see what the big deal is though. These are skills I take for granted and can't imagine being without. I don't mean to brag, either. I didn't even own an "assault weapon" when the ban was passed in 1994, but I was twelve years old then and identified myself as a rifleman even at that age enough to take it as a personal attack. It was deeply offensive for me, even then. It was a loss of innocence for me, and it is was got me interested in the gun control debate. By the time I was thirteen I knew the Second Amendment by heart and shortly after, the other nine. I knew more about early American history by the time I was in high school than most kids knew when they graduated.

I still think I need a lot more practice before I feel comfortable shooting in public, let alone before I consider being an instructor.

Geno
June 2, 2008, 01:09 AM
All:
This is a great thread! It has me full-motivated! This Tuesday I get the electronic spinal stimulator removed from my neck. That (very safe) procedure will restore me to my former unrestricted ability to fire even prone. My neuronsurgeon is very proarms, and has directed me to "...become as active as I can..." He likes that I shoot, and so, I have bought a few cases of CMP .30-06, an M1 Garand. I also bought a case of .22LR and a Kimber Gov't Model 82 Heavy target rifle. Within 12 days (10 days post surgery) I approved and expected by my surgeon to be enjoying some serious blast-fest time at the family farm!

Hawkhavn:
Seriously, thanks for that second! We need to get more folks certified to instruct Apple seed! Some my best experiences in life happened when I was actively teaching Hunter Safety! As soon as I have healed, and qualify at an Appleseed shoot, I will add getting instructor certification to my list. Next, is to sponsor an Appleseed shoot here in Michigan!

MTMilitiaman:
Sir, the impressiveness of your shooting, is exceeded only by your sense of humility! That, above all else tells me that you are instructor quality. Do it for your country, yet an additional way to serve. :cool:

Bartholomew Roberts
June 2, 2008, 02:52 AM
I think you should be proud of that. Two hits at 600yds may not be that impressive on an NRA High-Power range with nice contrasting targets and wind flags; but it is pretty good for a low-contrast target with no spotter in those conditions.

blitzen
June 2, 2008, 03:15 AM
MTMilitiaman,

If you sat in a circle snapping in on those barrels like a few of us have, and now you have an M1A, I think you might be sand bagging for the crowd. :rolleyes: Keep a dope book and you'll be hitting that target all day long. Or at least as long as your eyes are good. Good post and good pics. Semper Fi Brother!

Limeyfellow
June 2, 2008, 05:20 AM
I done 600 yard shooting with iron sights on my Lee Enfield. I was happy to be on the target with a couple in the black. My eyesight is just good enough to do it, though it really is a rather small target with the eyes at that distance.

I am not sure how the people who do 1000-1200 yard iron sights do it at Bisley, Stickledown and so on. Those guys eyes are unbelievable to see the targets.

P-32
June 2, 2008, 06:04 AM
yeah, those .223 went in sideways though.

Not hardly. For 600 yards I use 80 gr. SMK's with my match AR. These are loaded long and must be loaded in the rifle one at a time as they won't fit the mag.

As for MT: Using ball ammo I would say you did pretty well. I use 168 or 175 gr. SMK's in my match tuned 308 M-1 to make those 600 yard shots. When the job situtation changes, may I suggest you may enjoy shooting High Power. Course of fire is:

Standing, 2 sighters and 20 rounds for record in 22 minutes at 200 yards.

Sitting, 2 sighters in 2 minutes, then from standing to sitting 10 rounds in 60 seconds with mag change. From standing to sitting a second string of 10 rounds is fired in 60 seconds for a total of 20 rounds for record at 200 yards.

Prone Rapid. 2 sighters in 2 minutes, then from standing to prone 10 rounds in 70 seconds with a mag change. A second string is fired from standing to prone as above for a total 20 rounds for record at 300 yards.

Prone Slow fire: 2 sighters and 20 rounds for record in 22 minutes at 600 yards.

Sight picture remains the same as the aiming black gets larger the further back you get. There are also 100 yard matches which are shot on reduced targets when a full course is not avalible.

Total number of round expended, 88 with 80 rounds for record. Some people get all wrapped up with thinking they might not shoot well enough. High Power shooters are some of the nicest people you will meet, always willing to help the new guy with the loan of equipment and advice. Few High Power shooters are stuck on themselves because we all started out about the same....at the bottom of the ranks. The match winner will have plenty of trigger time and managed to make the fewest mistakes during the match.

An Expert Marksman in the Service would about equal a High Power Sharpshooter.

TimboKhan
June 2, 2008, 07:34 AM
I'm no sniper, but it's obviously possible and relatively easy to do, provided you have a good rest, decent eyes and some trigger time in. I won't claim to be able to plunk them into an inch or anything dopey like that, but I can make hits on a man-size target at that range. I just can't guarantee where the hits will be! In any event, thats some good shooting, dude.

hawkhavn
June 2, 2008, 08:23 AM
MTMilitiaman,

That's just it, you 'get it'. You learned it the right way and can accurately describe/tell other folks how to make it work.

hawkhavn

cpttango30
June 2, 2008, 09:04 AM
Palma is shot at 800 900 and 1000 yards with open sights. with 155gr 308 bullets.

MythBuster
June 2, 2008, 02:05 PM
"An Expert Marksman in the Service would about equal a High Power Sharpshooter"

I have seen "expert" classed Army guys that could not hit the paper on a NRA High Power range.

MTMilitiaman
June 2, 2008, 02:58 PM
If you sat in a circle snapping in on those barrels like a few of us have, and now you have an M1A, I think you might be sand bagging for the crowd.

That I have, but I don't think I am sandbagging. I have just just apparently myself to a higher standard than most around me. I am proud of what I managed to accomplish, but I still feel rusty and expect better of myself if I am to be teaching others.

The argument is moot anyways as by the time I am able to afford an Appleseed shoot, and find the time to track one down, I'll have practiced a bit.

An Expert Marksman in the Service would about equal a High Power Sharpshooter.

I have seen 03s that had remarkable trouble hitting pop up Ivans from field positions past 300 meters without their RCOs.

MythBuster
June 2, 2008, 03:43 PM
You guys really need to start shooting NRA Highpower.

600 yards is considered mid range.

foghornl
June 2, 2008, 03:48 PM
Ask the guys-n-gals at Camp Perry, Ohio every August if 600 Yds is do-able with iron sights....

csmkersh
June 2, 2008, 03:51 PM
Look up Billy Dixon so time.

taliv
June 2, 2008, 04:11 PM
yes, 600 yrds is considered midrange. but the target is a 6 FOOT x 6 FOOT white cardboard backing with an x-ring half-again larger than MT's aiming black. the aiming black on the NRA target is larger than MT's entire cardboard and stump.

Mr White
June 2, 2008, 05:22 PM
The X ring on a standard MR-1 (600 yd, slowfire prone) target is 6" in diameter, the 10 ring is 12" and the aiming black, which includes the X-7 rings, is 36". Seeing a 36" black circle on a 72" white square at 600 yds isn't too hard.

Consistently hitting your 4" black circle would be a good feat for a top high power shooter, and even then, he'd have a much bigger bull to aim at. Hitting a circle 3 times that big at 600 still gives you a perfect score.

P-32
June 2, 2008, 09:07 PM
Seeing a 36" black circle on a 72" white square at 600 yds isn't too hard.

Your right. But hitting it every time is the hard part. The wind can move your bullet right off the whole thing. I have a good day if I can get in the the low 190's at 600.

Eightball
June 2, 2008, 09:58 PM
Closest I've come to that was about 500 yards on a WWI Mauser with the Ladder Sight elevated for the distance, at a target about as big. I can vouch for how hard that is to do, nice shooting, and it's refreshing to see someone being realistic about their shooting for a change.

SpeedAKL
June 2, 2008, 10:19 PM
Wow...given the nature of the target I am quite impressed....

havoc7usmc
June 3, 2008, 12:32 AM
It feels good to hit some thing that far... great shot:D:D. Cook, Baker or C:Dandle stick maker if you can't hit a man size target at 500 yards with your M16, you have a very short time in the Marine Corps. That was my DI's favorite saying.

PS Good pics!!!

Semper Fi
Guns - out

Jon Coppenbarger
June 3, 2008, 02:00 AM
there is a event at the national matches called rattle battle (NTIT). Try youtube and check it out. you start at 600 yards prone and when you get to 300 yards it is from the sitting position on just the head and shoulder target.
When the target comes up you have 50 seconds before it goes down. you have 6 shooters and 8 targets. the inside 4 guys shoot straight away and the out side two shooters have two targets each to shoot. most teams have different load plans but it seems like 25 to 30 rounds each at 600 yards is the norm. some military teams may try many more than that.
The target colors are either light tan or light green to make them look like uniforms or the like. they are on standard cardbord backers. In some lighting conditions they are hard to see. With practice and a solid wind call you can expect over 90% hits.

funfaler
June 3, 2008, 12:35 PM
Fine shooting and fun thread.

The secret to shooting out to 500-600 yards is that there is no secret, just basics. Many folks think it too "magical" to be able to shoot out past 100 yards. This is the fun part of Appleseeds, is that they are instilling those basic (better termed fundamental) skills in "average" Americans.

500 yard accuracy, 90% hits or better with rack grade rifle, surplus ammo, iron sights, in field positions, is the goal of an Appleseed Rifleman, and is obtainable by any moderately healthy rifle shooter.

Doc Don't wait to get health to host an Appleseed, the Wolverine State needs one this summer.

I have been in contact with Williams Gun Site in Davison, as well as a couple of others in MI, but no one seems interested beyond getting some paper work sent to them.:rolleyes:

BTW, FREE Appleseed in Douglas, WY if anybody wants one:what: Yep, anybody that pre-registers for this Appleseed will shoot FREE, it is on September 6-7. Check out http://www.rwva.org for the shoot information.

qwert65
June 3, 2008, 12:48 PM
Very nice shot!

MinnMooney
June 3, 2008, 01:48 PM
That is some impressive, 1st try shooting at 600 w/a peep. I really love the countryside that you're shooting in. Beautiful, scenic vista.

MTMilitiaman
June 3, 2008, 02:46 PM
I really love the countryside that you're shooting in. Beautiful, scenic vista.

There is advantages to living in the sticks. The scenery is one of them, but not the greatest.

amprecon
November 3, 2008, 10:57 AM
The M1A is a great rifle, I think it should be the official American Militia rifle.

lionking
November 3, 2008, 09:24 PM
600 yds in considered midrange?I feel like a noob now.:uhoh:


great thread!

jjohnson
November 4, 2008, 12:59 AM
Nice job!

I'm always irritated by the Mall Ninjas who insist on shooting their assault rifles on the PISTOL RANGE :barf::eek::what::fire: - after a few mags, I sometimes ask 'em if they're done zeroing their weapons so they can take their rifles to the RIFLE range.:scrutiny::evil:

Yep, it's all doable. You just proved it. I used to knock down the silhouette targets about 90% on the Known Distance range at 400 meters with an iron sighted M16A1 :barf: so I'm not surprised you could do well at 600. Keep up the good work and don't believe what other people tell you about what
can't be done. Maybe THEY can't - but you can. :D

TEDDY
November 29, 2008, 08:15 PM
I shot in a match at 600 yrds and got 47 ot of 50 points.used a national match M1 garand.my father won the Winship medal in NG back in the 20s? with a WW1 1903.before WW2 there were many shooters that shot 1000 yrds.as you could shoot on NG ranges.my first experiance was pulling targets at 60 cents an hr for civilian shooters.that was twice what the prevalling wage was.also many schools and churchs,legions, and others had rifle teams. the NRA used to publish the scores on jr matches. W R Hearst sponsered postal matches and I shot in one team that usually was in first 3 places.week ends the NG ranges were full of civilian shooters.I will stick with my 1903 and M1.:rolleyes::uhoh::D
I an 84 now

goldie
November 29, 2008, 09:17 PM
That is great shooting, the russians shot german soldiers in wwII at 600 yds,too.they could have used you.ive seen morons at a 25 yard range shooting ar15's & mini 14's putting their targets at 7 yards ! pathetic! i wish they could see this,they would be embarrased :what:

Archie
November 29, 2008, 09:54 PM
As mentioned, the target set up for 600 yards in NRA High Power (and the Marine Corps, in 1969) was a six foot by six foot white square with a 36 inch black dot in the middle.

With 1x1 lumber and a sheet or two from the Salvation Army, one might put together a portable target hanger to make life simpler.

By the way, two out of ten in the circumstances you outline is very good shooting. I really like the M14 (M1A) mechanism. They respond very well to handloads as well. a 168 grain BTHP bullet and a suitable dose of IMR4895 is a very reliable and accurate round.

1911Tuner
November 30, 2008, 08:57 AM
Offered as proof that every Marine is an 0311. ;)

Militiaman...the M1A/M14 platform is underrated by those who have never gotten cozy with it, as you've seen here. Back when I had better eyes, I used to amaze myself a lot with one that hadn't even been bedded...though it did have a match barrel.

If you handload, try 42.5-43.0 grains of IMR 4895 and a good 168-grain bullet. I always favored Hornady's 168-grain Match. In my rifle, it seemed to edge out Sierra's 168 Matchking...but experimentation may show a different result for yours. I also hear good things about the Palma 155, but haven't tried it.

Next trip, use some wind flags every hundred yards. You can make'em on the cheap with dowel rods and ribbon. You'll need a spotting scope to accurately read the more distant ones, but a good, clear 8X-12X rifle scope will do in a pinch, plus it will help you to dope any mirage. With the right load, that rifle will mystify you.

moooose102
November 30, 2008, 09:51 AM
makes me wish i had my 300 yard range again. GOOD SHOOTING! with my eyes, i wouldnt even attempt such a shot with open sights. for me, open sights are for 50 yards, or LESS!

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