[poodlenme]

He just got out of boot camp and is now in Camp Pendellton to be shipped out to Iraq or Afganistan in July. Hes in the infantry.
I told him I would get him a really good knife to take with him. All I have found online are Ka Bars fixed blades and that was the one I wanted to get him.
He was recently told by a superior that he wasnt allowed a fixed blade, only a folding knife with a max. length of only 3 inches.

My question is how can he protect himself properly with such a small knife? And folders are prone to jamming and breaking in all that sand.

So now, I dont know what to get him. I want him to have a quality knife to use in the field and for protection if need be. The Ka Bar I thought was sort of a tradition in the Marine corps. So what gives?

What kind of knife should I send him? I dont want it taken away from him before he even gets overseas if the blade is too long.

What do'yall recommend I get him? Thank you for your time and I appreicate it. I am a female, but my dad got me collecting knives when I was just a girl. I dont collect tacticals and know little about them, so your help in appreciated. (I collect folders and customs like Yellowhorse, love Kershaw, CRKT, colonel, and some case and anything else that I find appealing)

[p35]

There are people on this forum who have done tours in the Middle East, and I'm not one of them. The impression I get, though, is that the odds of needing to use a knife in a fight are pretty low.

I think the idea of "tactical" knives designed for fighting is oversold. I know of people who got killed in prison with razor blades melted into toothbrush handles. I would look for a strong utility knife that will help open ammunition and MRE crates and possibly cut people out of crashed Humvees. If the need presents itself adrenalin and a strong sharp knife of any kind will do the trick.

[bigun454]

If you dont like K-BAR like me and most other marines like me,check out the SOG line up really good knives in the $100 and up range.Tell your nephew thanks a ton and semper fi for me.

[TimboKhan]

I was a 0331 in the USMC, and the two times that we deployed, big knives were nothing more than a nuisance, to include the Ka-Bar. I mean, I had a Ka-Bar, and it was a perfectly servicable knife and all, but as the hand-to-hand instructor told us at MCRD "If it comes down to a knife fight, you're already screwed". Honestly, for the knife chores that the average Marine has on a daily basis, any good folder will do.

Now, with that being said, just because I didn't want to haul around the extra weight doesn't mean someone else shouldn't if they so desire. Knives are one of the few things that you can carry that fits what you want in a weapon/tool as opposed to what the USMC gives you. If someone wants to haul around a Bowie knife, what do I care?

[JShirley]

I suggest the Spyderco Waved Endura or Delica, along with an On/Scene "Speed Dialer" sheath. This will give him a good sized implement that is useful, quality construction, quickly accessible, lightweight, and won't have other combat troops laughing at him.

[leadcounsel]

I'm not a Marine, but I'm a Soldier in a pretty bad a$$ combat brigade unit; 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault).

Whether a Marine or Soldier can have a combat knife seems quite arbitrary. We cannot have our own personal 'weapons' but large knives generally don't fall under that category. I bet he probably will find that he CAN later, but may not feel the need. I happen to have an outstanding combat knife strapped to the front of my body armor - I use a Gerber with a 4 1/2" blade.

In our Brigade, I would estimate that 25% of Soldiers have a 4"+ fixed blade fighting knife attached to their armor for close quarter combat (raids on houses, small rooms, etc. that you find yourself frequently in). For $50-100, lightweight, and minimal space and repeated/unlimited use, there is no better tool for the money than a good combat knife.

He will get more daily use from a 3" folding knife and that's probably the most valuable tool I have on my person on a day to day basis (I also carry a leatherman in addition to a lot of other things). I open MREs, care packages, cut rope/cord, food items, you name it. It's sooo handy! I use a little 3" Camilus folder that was a deployment gift. I love it, but sadly they are out of business.

But if he ever NEEDED a combat knife (say his weapon went down), it would be worth 1000 times its weight in gold. I am no pro at folding knives. I have something that I like, but they are no longer available. Other knife guys here can help you pick something. Mine is spring loaded opener, which I find very handy.

As far as the combat knife, if he finds he wants one later, he can order one on Amazon or knives plus or whatever and they will deliver.

Here are some other invaluable gift ideas for deploying military -

1. LED flashlight, something with a red lense filter, and belt holster. We are often in the dark and on uneven terrain. And/or a small keyfob style green or red or blue LED.

2. Gerber or leatherman tool. Many of us get them issued, but many don't. They are very handy, especially the pliers and screwdrivers.

Other Soldiers/Marines will laugh at you if you have a big knife; if you need it in a fight you are already screwed...

I don't understand this and think that this line of reasoning should stop. Our grandfathers swore by their Kabars and most pictures of Vietnam, WWII, etc Soldiers and Marines had large fighting knives... Like I said, about a quarter of 3BCT Soldiers do now. In fact, it was mandatory to carry the issued fighting knife on 3BCTs last deployment. Now it's optional.

Why the change in attitude? Are Iraqis invulerable to the knife? Are we done killing insurgents? Are we done raiding homes and taking detainees? Are we done fighting in close quarter, urban combat where weapons fail? The answer is no. The knife is an inexpensive and invaluable small tool. If you need a knife you aren't screwed UNLESS YOU DON'T HAVE ONE! I don't buy into this "odds" bull****. We are in a combat zone. The odds of me (and all of you here) needing a CCW are very low, but most of us CCW.

Your other questions: Folders won't be affected by sand and are easily cleaned off. Kabars are a tradition but there are better knives for the money. Kabars are, really, probably alittle too big. Something with a 4-5" fixed blade is probably the most managable. Look at Gerber prodigy.

[JShirley]

But if he ever NEEDED a combat knife (say his weapon went down)

I'm sorry. I respect who you are and what you're doing, but this reasoning is bogus. Even a nonfunctioning M4 is a better combat tool than any knife smaller than a sword.

Why the change in attitude?

Respectfully, even back as far as the Civil War (the first modern war, incidentally), troops with large knives usually discarded them once they started marching. Just visit the Civil War museum for many examples of such discarded knives.

Now, my suggestion, especially the Endura, will give an instantly available option for wear on IBA, that can be dismounted and carried in the pocket for general use when not geared up.

I've been tasked out to real go fast troops, both 3rd and 7th Group. 3rd Group were the fightingest SOBs I've ever seen. You know what they carried, with practically any gear they wanted available to them?

Benchmade folders. They only time I saw a large knife actually used in Afghanistan was by a Marine NCO on a MEDCAP mission, and he would use it to herd the locals. It was really just an icon.

John

[The Tourist]

Find something disposable.

[C-D-P]

I would like to know what superior told him he could not have a fixed blade?

That is total BS.

In all actuality (overthere), knives are only good for opening MREs and playing mumbely pegs. Save your cash and regualrly send him state side cope. If he dips he will be thankful (Framaldihagen sucks), if he does not dip he can make some extra money.

Do you know his TO weapon?

[leadcounsel]

JShirley said:
Even a nonfunctioning M4 is a better combat tool than any knife smaller than a sword.


I respectfully disagree. Yes, a nonfunctioning M4 can possibly be made to function, but I've also had critically nonfuncitioning weapons that were nothing more than an unweildy club.

Respectfully, even back as far as the Civil War (the first modern war, incidentally), troops with large knives usually discarded them once they started marching.

It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I think most would agree that a knife is a better melee weapon than a club, particularly in a vehicle, being tackled, in a small room, etc.

I personally would rather take a fixed blade razor sharp 4-5" blade than a club. In fact, there are many knife experts that claim that a knife is a MORE POTENT weapon than a gun in a one-on-one fight. I've never heard anyone claim that of a club. Just to be clear, I'm not one of those people that think a knife is better than a gun, but I do subscribe to the school of thought that a knife, at about 1 lb, is much better than a club.

I'm not advocating against a folder. I carry a folder too. Either way, I think it important to have some type of knife on ones' IBA/IOTV.

And, let's not forget, he may be a gunner or carry an 9mm. Either of these would be a good weapon to supplement with a fighting knife.

[TimboKhan]

Why the change in attitude? Are Iraqis invulerable to the knife? Are we done killing insurgents? Are we done raiding homes and taking detainees? Are we done fighting in close quarter, urban combat where weapons fail? The answer is no.

As JShirley said, a buttstroke to the face is more effective than trying to hack and slash with someone. It also creates distance. For that matter, an axe handle is a better alternative to a combat knife if you really need something other than a rifle. Do you know how to knife fight effectively? I don't, and it takes a lot of training to get to the point where your good at it. But, I know you can swing a club, and it takes no training to get good at that.

Like I said, if you want to carry a big knife, carry a big knife. It's your choice, not mine. My time in the suck taught me that it was unnecessary, but that was my lesson learned, not yours.

[JShirley]

I think most would agree that a knife is a better melee weapon than a club, particularly in a vehicle, being tackled, in a small room, etc.

I completely disagree, and I challenge you to find any expert who says this (that a smallish knife is superior to a longer blunt object). If you believe this, I have to say, you are wrong. Completely wrong. It's your choice, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong.

John

[Green Lantern]

He was recently told by a superior that he wasnt allowed a fixed blade, only a folding knife with a max. length of only 3 inches.

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot - that's worse than NC knife laws!

Hmmm...I'm no knife expert, but you might look into some of Cold Steel's offerings, like the Voyager. (I was gonna suggest an SRK or Recon Tanto before I read the 'no fixed blade' part)

[C-D-P]

Lead. A good number of 31s carry M4s now.

Like I said before, a knife is only good for opening MREs and mumbely pegs.

[moxie]

Since he's been told he's authorized only a 3" folder, get him a quality Benchmade, Spyderco, etc., for $50-100. I'd recommend partially serrated which will make line/rope cutting easier. Also consider a good Swiss Army Knife. There are few things handier than the tweezers, toothpick, scissors, etc. on a SAK, day in and day out. Then, later, after he gets the lay of the land, ask him what else he really wants. His answer will depend in large part on his actual duties. Not all marines have the same job.

[Green Lantern]

SAK - maybe a Gerber or Leatherman tool? Those things are MIGHTY handy...

[leadcounsel]

Bottom line is that a laceration or stab with a 4.5" fixed blade knife will stop a fight WORLDS faster than a clubing or buttstroke. And the typical person can easily block or sidestep a buttstroke or clubswing whereas the same isn't true against a fighting knife slash or stab.

And from a fighting standpoint, a club/buttstroke opens the fighter up to counter attack much more than a slash or a stab. A deep laceration will quickly end the fight in the other combatant.

Put another way, clubs are about the lowest tech as a form of combat weapon, just above rocks. Hardened steel fighting blades are just behind the arrow and bullet.

And the bottom line is that if for whatever reason you are hand-to-hand, you'd better get "un-hand-to-hand" as quickly as possible. That's accomplished by neurtalizing the threat immediately and fixing your primary (reload, SPORTS, picking it up, etc.).

[C-D-P]

Ya know, he would be within his rights to ask to see the order banning fixed blades.

There is no such MCO.

Regardless, he will have a blade. The new Bayonets are pretty good. The KA-Bars we use are not real KA-Bars.

But it matters not.

[leadcounsel]

I agree that I'm not aware of any general prohibition, as I stated above, but there may be a commander prohibition, and an order is an order. It need not be in writing, but I think he's in his rights to check for clarification and consistency. Was it just a whimsical statement by an NCO that isn't supported by command, or actually the intend of his command?

[CZ.22]

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/bnchmd/images/10501bt.jpg
Something along these lines. Not too big to be un-useful, not too small to be not-viable as a backup weapon.
I'm no soldier, martial artist, or cop, but I agree with both Jshirley and leadcounsel. Sure, a rifle-club will be more effective than a knife, if you have room to swing it. If you don't, it's always good to have an option.
Also, a good Leatherman/Vic/SOG/Gerber multi, and a Benchmade Mini-Grip or Grip.

[C-D-P]

but there may be a commander prohibition, and an order is an order. It need not be in writing, but I think he's in his rights to check for clarification and consistency. Was it just a whimsical statement by an NCO that isn't supported by command, or actually the intend of his command?

Honestly sounds like an uninformed NCO talking. But you are right, the CO has ultimate authority.

For example. many moons ago 3/8 and other elements of ACM went into Haiti to do SASO and HA. CO's guidance was that no one took anything that was not issued.

One kid wanted to bring a 12" coup knife from USCalvery.com.

As per commanders guidance, telling him no was lawfull.

But I have not heard anything in the box that mirrors this.

Still, the OP's money would be better spent buying Cope and baby wipes.

[Navy joe]

What knife for marine? You're going about it all wrong. Knife a Marine and you'll just make him mad. If you want to bag a Marine you need a big net. And two Air Force women to use as bait. :neener:

Seriously, I cannot understand telling a Marine no knife more than 3". Grenades ok, SMAW just peachy, 4" knife? That's crazy talk.

Will he carry an M9? buy him some new Beretta brand mags. Knife, get the Kabar, he might not need it, but it is de rigeur. If he can't take it, send it off and get his name, unit, and deployment dates engraved in it.

[C-D-P]

Joe... You were a doc wern't ya!

[VPLthrneck]

The best non-issued blade I've ever carried in the Marines is a Leatherman. So if you're going to pay for something that you want him to get use out of go with a good-quality multi-tool. The Leatherman and Gerber's are reliable and tough. Really surprise him and get his name engraved in it.
We had a few guys buy there own Ka-Bars, but it was really frowned upon. If our command wanted to make on issue of 3"+ blades then these guys would have had to check them into the ammory.
Orders like this gets put in the base barracks regulations, so when he got his barrack's room he fell under that order. This is also where they put the rules and regs for fire-arms.

[rcmodel]

+1
A good Multi-Tool folding plier would probably be WAY more useful, and used more often, then any knife you can possibly get him.

And the folding blades in a Multi-Tool fits the bill as far as "legal length" over there.

Wish they had been invented years ago when I was active duty!

rcmodel

[Semmerling]

Great question....great and interesting responses.

Your brother(?) will receive a fine knife more than capable of his daily service requirements. I think you want to get him something special to carry with him. I would agree with those that suggest a good multi tool and would also recommend a leatherman...but the Leatherman Wave. I wish you both well.

[JShirley]

Let me back up a bit. I missed the following

It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm a historian, so don't take the following personally. It doesn't matter what you believe, it's documented historical fact. As a combat troop, if you think about it, it DOES make sense. A laden-down soldier, carrying all his fighting tools, shelter, and food on his person is likely to deliberately lose things he has found aren't essential, and the knives in question- large bowies that were usually close to short swords in size- were the least essential items. That's even in an environment where they had considerably more utility than in our age of repeating firearms.

lead, I don't mean to make it sound like you have no idea what you're talking about. Your suggestions (small folder, small fixed blade) are good. I also completely agree with your suggestions regarding a small LED (a mini Mag Lite with Red Nite-Ize LED module is a good choice, along with a red Photon Freedom) and a multitool. As someone with a good bit of experience training with sticks, knives, swords, flexibles, thrown objects and what have you, I can tell you that almost anyone will be better served with a buttsmash from a carbine, or simply punching an enemy with their muzzle than trying to fight them off with a small knife.

TROOPS DO NEED INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE KNIVES. The reasons they may need them, though, are considerably different than what you suggest. I hope you will carefully consider what I have said. After carefully considering it, try to let go of some of your preconceptions, and take these things out and actually try them for yourself.

Regards,

John Shirley

[rcmodel]

BTW: The only few uses I ever had for a combat knife was chopping underbrush for camo, and opening C-Rat cans.
Oh, and keeping my web gear from becoming too light & floating up under my arm pits all the time. :what:

They don't have underbrush or C-Rat cans in Iraq, and I doubt his Molly gear & body armor will be light enough to cause problem #3!

rcmodel

[C-D-P]

Mumbly pegs is a great pass time.

[styles]

Fallkniven F1.

[thebaldguy]

I got my girlfriend's brother a nice CRKT knife. Here's few links:


http://www.milsurpstuff.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CRKM1601KZ

http://www.knivesplus.com/CRKT-FOLDERS-M16-M16SF-M16T-M16Z.HTML

[p35]

You might take a look at the Swedish Army issue knife:

http://ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html

#760-MG

I have a couple and they do all a knife should do, plus they're light and made of good quality, easy to sharpen steel. Could be used in a fight in a pinch. I'm sure they would fail if used as a prybar, but the only knife that's not true of is a Himalayan Imports khukri AFAIK.

[TimboKhan]

Bottom line is that a laceration or stab with a 4.5" fixed blade knife will stop a fight WORLDS faster than a clubing or buttstroke.

Keep in mind I am saying this with absolutely zero animosity or attitude towards you, but no, it won't. I am not a martial arts expert, but I can say conclusively that getting cracked with a club or buttstroked will stop a fight much, much faster than getting cut or stabbed.

Simple clothing can, to a certain degree, offer protection against a slash. A T-shirt and jeans offer zero protection against getting whacked with a club. A single strike of a bat in the general area of a bone can break it. You have to be pretty darn precise to stop a fight by stabbing someone, and in a fight for life, getting a slice on the arm isn't going to end the battle. Wearing the average flak jacket, you will not get sliced, and you will only get punctured badly if the person stabs you with a tremendous amount of force. Getting whacked in the chest is still going to hurt. Trust me on that one, as I have driven knives through flak jackets and I got buttstroked in the chest wearing one. It hurts. Badly.

Again, I will say that there isn't anything wrong with carrying a big knife, and that is each individual guy's choice. If I had a kid over there and he wanted a big knife, I would just get him a big knife and leave it at that. If it were me, based on my experience, there just isn't any way I would bother hauling a big knife with me. A nice folder and a Leatherman (I used to carry slip-joint pliers and they were awesome) would be my choice.

[JShirley]

What Timbo is saying not only reflects my experience, but the choices made by genuine experts in the field that I observed. At least one 18B I was with had 18 years service.

FWIW. YMMV. You could be different, etc, etc.

[leadcounsel]

Another good suggestion for a gift would be a camping style "headlamp" light that he can wear on his head for when he is moving around inside his room or tent or whatever. It must also have different color lenses. I have one that is red light, flood light, and focused light. It's very useful for hands free operation.

And another useful gift is a small seatbelt cutting tool. Many Marines and Soldiers die from rollover incidents where they get stuck wearing their seatbelts in a canal.

Personally I only wear my seatbelt sometimes, depending on the terrain. It's six of one, half dozen of another. If you end up in a canal or are hit with an EFP and the heat is causing your skin to melt and ammo to cook off, obviously you don't want your seatbelt to slow you down. But if you are in a rollover you probably wish your seatbelt was on. Anyway, I have one on my IOTV for either my use or someone else. A knife would also work, but risks injury to yourself or others if you are trying to cut quickly or in an awkward position (such as upside-down).

To respond to some other posts... JShirley, I am confident you know your stuff and are generally a very reliable source. However, I'm not convinced that Soldiers have ever abandoned a useful KNIFE in droves. Swords, probably. I'm not advocating carrying a sword. But knives? No. I'd have to see some credible evidence.

Yes, I agree that the club is a decent weapon. But a knife is better and gives more options. Why not have both? Weight. Nah. I hump 70lbs regularly. What's 1 more?

To score a critical hit with a combat knife is not difficult. Legs, achilles heal, hamstring, thigh, hip, groin, stomach, chest, lungs, back/lungs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands, fingers, neck, and head will all severly injure an opponent, cause loss of blood (a persons' own blood loss has a significant psyhological effect in a fight), and decisively win a hand-to-hand fight. Someone mentioned penetrating power or knives not being effective. I have yet to meet an Iraqi (other than an Iraqi Army Soldier - who we are allied with) that wears anything heavier than a light cotton mandress or shirt. And any quality fighting knife won't even notice a layer or two of cotton. A fighting knife is a weapon designed to fight; slash and stab.

Conversely, a club requires room to swing or buttstoke; and an M4 is a clumsly and awkward club. Better than nothing, but a ballbat or staff would be much better. A critical hit is difficult and would likely only decisely overcome a combatant with a hit to the head or neck. Hits to the leg, arm, chest, or stomach can be absorbed. And it's easier for the opponent to grab ahold of and wrestle with you. An M4 is an improvised and clumsy club.

For the naysayers, let me ask this: If you had to chose, would you rather fight someone armed with a club or a knife. Or both?

[rklessdriver]

Both times I went over there, I carried a Spyderco Endura II (my personal) and a Gerber multi tool (this was actually issued to me). Depending on his actual duties there he may or may not carry his bayonet.

What's been said about knives being good for opening MRE's and cutting rope is about right. I carried mine around over there in my pocket like I do every day here. I used it for opening up MRE's, cutting slash wire (when dykes weren't handy), general BS, ect.

Something reasonabaly priced, quality, fairly small and light will be fine. Any of the higher end Spyderco's (Endura, Military), Bench Made, or Kershaw ($50-$100 max) folding knives will do anything he needs and anything more expensive will make him a target of the local unit THEIF. A lot of guys had cheaper S&W, CRTK, SOG, or whatever brand liner locks for this very reason, that also held up just fine.

Just FYI quite a few commands are cracking down on guys carrying their BOWIE knives around like their freaking Rambo. It's not only see it as unprofessional, but careless use of personal knives account for quite a few trips to sick call. Espc in the Marine Corps...
Semper Fi
Will

[hso]

It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives.

LC, with all due respect, soldiers dumped the bowies and D-guards in the Civil War like they were anchors just as JShirley said. Visit the museums and study the history of knives and you'll see this over and over again. Specific "credible evidence" can be found at the National Knife Collector's Association National Knife Museum. They have a very nice section just on this. Feel free to come to East Tennessee and stay at my home and I'll take you up to see it some time. Until then, here's a typical entry from historical reenactors - http://www.civilwarhome.com/weapons.htm

Think of it like like mounted troops today discard the large blade sheath knives you council against. Big knives add weight and crowd the vest and risk hanging up with other gear while in vehicles. I hear this over and over from guys in combat. Just like your guys dump their big knives, Civil War soldiers dumped theirs in favor of what they used day in and day out and what was essential to carry.

OTOH the new MRAPs have a lot more interior room and the guys exit the rear through sizable doors/hatches. That may change how fast big knives go to the locker from the vest. Only reports from the field will tell.

You ask: "For the naysayers, let me ask this: If you had to chose, would you rather fight someone armed with a club or a knife. Or both?" Having trained extensively in both (and I mean years) I'd rather have a club than a knife in a fight and I'd rather fight a guy with a knife than one with a club (and I love knives).

Stay safe.

[Water-Man]

Get him a quality multi-tool.

[rcmodel]

Civil War soldiers dumped theirs+1

And they had a heck of a lot better reason to carry a fighting knife as a back-up weapon then we do today. They were fighting with single-shot muzzle loaders.

If I were young enough to do it again, I'd rather have an extra 30 round mag of ammo then a big knife of equal weight.

Even 40 years ago, big combat knives where of much greater value in jungle warfare then they would be in the desert now.

There just ain't much to cut when all there is is sand and other GI's around you.

rcmodel

[SlamFire1]

It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I think they were leaving these huge bowie knives that were actually short swords.

And the reason:

I showed a Boss of mine, a Veteran of the China Burma India Theater, my Big Western Bowie.

http://www.jaysknives.com/westernknives/BowieW49.jpg

You could buy this knife at K Mart, and in the 60's, it was about the biggest commercial knife you could find.

My Boss just rolled his eyes and said "imagine having to carry that thing all day"

From what I can tell, the amount of weight the infantry man has to carry has not changed since Roman times. The powers that be just load the grunt up with a 100 pounds of gear, and make the poor guy march 20 miles a day.

It was not long before Soldier’s tried to figure out what was essential and what was not.

Oh, they carried knives, but the heavy stuff got left behind.

[C-D-P]

Ounces equal pounds man.

[TimboKhan]

I would again point out that I am only discussing this issue philosophically, and I mean no disrespect in any of my answers, but here we go again:

To score a critical hit with a combat knife is not difficult. Legs, achilles heal, hamstring, thigh, hip, groin, stomach, chest, lungs, back/lungs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands, fingers, neck, and head will all severly injure an opponent, cause loss of blood (a persons' own blood loss has a significant psyhological effect in a fight), and decisively win a hand-to-hand fight.

Legs, thighs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands (to a certain degree) fingers and even head wounds will not put an immediate stop to most hand to hand fights, and even a penetration of the stomach or kidneys won't guarantee a stop. I have been variously injured in all those areas, to include playing a full season of football with a torn biceps, and none of them would have kept me out of a fight. Hey, I actually got SHOT in the kidney, and while it sucked horribly, I wasn't out of the fight for a good couple of minutes. That same gunshot tore a hole in my stomach too. Keep in mind that I don't mean to make it seem like it's impossible to disable an enemy with a knife, and I understand that getting cut sucks, but in the long run, it's still just getting cut. Frankly, a hard enough punch or kick to the groin will cause enough immediate pain to disable an opponent as getting stabbed there will.

Incidentally, you do bring up an excellent point about seeing your own blood, and that is if your planning on getting into a knife fight, you should also plan on getting cut up, a fact curiously overlooked. You must also realize that to execute many of these moves requires you to be in very, very close and if your in that close, it's not as if your opponent is just going to stand there and let you shank him. if your opponent happens to trap your stabbing arm (which, incidentally is where all his attention is going to be), your pretty much out of luck.

A club isn't the perfect weapon, but it has the advantages of creating distance, being exceedingly easy to use, and creating signifigant amounts of pain across a relatively wide area. Also, by very nature of physics, your going to be transferring much more energy into your opponent with a club than with a knife. For example, a downward slash with a knife that is blocked by an arm is, at worst, going to result in a lacerated arm. That same sequence of events with a club is likely going to break that arm. You asked if I would rather go into a fight with a knife or a club, and 100% of the time, I would answer with "club". If you stick me in the forearm, I am going to feel pain in that specific area. If you whack me with a club, I am going to feel pain across the breadth of the strike.

Honestly, if I had to use any hand weapon in a fight, I would use a spear or a halberd. I don't know how to use either, but for all the talk about how awesome swords are, halberds were for all intents and purposes the kings of the battlefield, and it's because they created space.

As a final aside, when we were deployed to Somalia during Operation Restore Hope, you know what our best weapon was? The axe handle. The Somalis figured out pretty quickly that we weren't likely to stab them and that they weren't that scared of getting stabbed anyway, but they were quite afraid of getting hit with an axe handle. We had our rifles, but stupid rules of engagment meant that they were useless most of the time, and so axe handles became the rule of the day, and they worked very, very well.

[leadcounsel]

I've never advocated for swords or bowie knives. I've even said in an earlier post that a 7" blade Kbar is overkill. I've consistently said that a 4-5" blade is handy, and a small folding knife is handier. Re-read my posts.

While it is really irrelevant, I'll concede that the Soldiers of the civil war may have dropped their large bowie knives. I doubt they'd drop smaller knives. This may be a matter of semantics. Regardless of what civil war Soldiers did, it's irrelevant to modern Marine infantry equipment. There is little similarity to the modern infantryman's tactics or equipment as there is to a Civil War infantryman. Nor is the prospect of survival the same. A modern US Soldier or Marine has better equipment, comforts, vehicles, weapons, food and water supply, resupply, and survivability than his ancient counterpart. So, if a Civil War infantryman abandoned his bowie knife, there may have been many factors involved that a cursory view doesn't consider. Anyway, it's irrelevant.

Here's what I carry. I have pictures of me wearing it on my IOTV on other postings. It has never interfered with any of my missions, whether it's in an MRAP, HMMV, UH60, running or rucking. It's handy and weighs like a pound or so and is immediately accessible. Works as a knife, seatbel cutter, hammer, window punch, or spear - probably will never need it in combat and would be quite please if I never did. It was like $70.

If he can have one and wants one, kudos. If not, it's no skin off my back. I was just making suggestions.

[rcmodel]

It is also well to remember that there is never a clear winner in a knife fight.

One guy may die, but the other guy is not gonna be in much better shape.

rcmodel

[ylapirrynag]

Yeah but it's better than not having a knife and getting messed up. :|

[JShirley]

Lead,

That Gerber is, I feel, a pretty good choice in a sturdy knife. I had one, too, but gave it to a squadmate since I was already well equipped.

We've really diverged into two different subjects here, and we really agree on tools for the most part, it's just the why we differ on.

I feel that an instantly accessible knife is a really good idea because sometimes soldiers get hung up in stuff, and can become badly injured or killed if not cut free Right Damn Now. I have seen serious injury missed by about an inch, but only because the soldier was about the skinniest I've ever known (5'9", 128 lbs).

You feel an instantly accessible knife is a really good idea because a troop may have to fight with it.

Now, I believe a Waved Spyderco Endura is probably a better choice than even that Gerber because it takes less room on IBA and weighs less. It can also be used apart from its Speed Dialer sheath, so only one knife need be carried.

(Admittedly, I wouldn't pry with an Endura, as I did with my Shane Justice custom knife, and might conceivably have done with that Gerber, but prying with a knife is abuse.)

Anyway, I urge you to continue to explore your use of force options. Also, don't close your mind to other views just because they don't gel with your own, especially if those giving them have some basis to know.

Take care and watch six,

John

[USMC-Mustang]

I'm a big fan of Benchmade (spring loaded) folding knives. There is always one on my left boot and one in my flight gear. I don't carry the knife for protection or "just in case" but rather for convenience, you never know when you're going to have to cut away a harness, cut some 550 cord etc.

I also second on a good flashlight. The Surefire G2L comes to mind. I carry two, one with a red lens filter in my flight suit and another on my flight vest. 85 lumens with a 12 hour battery life. Can't beat it for the size and price.

You can never go wrong with a multitool. I know the ground guys have limited space and weight to carry stuff. I also have a multitool in my flight bag. Very handy.

Two different worlds, air wing and ground guys, but I was in the infantry for 8 years before I went over to the "dark side" and I would have the same gear if I were still in the infantry.

[RancidSumo]

I like my Emerson Mini CQB-7. It is a great knife with a great edge. If he is actually limited to what you said in your first post I would reccomend that knife. 2.something inch blade.

[C-D-P]

I'm a big fan of Benchmade (spring loaded) folding knives. There is always one on my left boot and one in my flight gear. I don't carry the knife for protection or "just in case" but rather for convenience, you never know when you're going to have to cut away a harness, cut some 550 cord etc.

46's?

[VHinch]

US Army 11B here, I typically kept a Gerber Multi Tool dummy corded to my LBE (I know, it's been a while) and a Benchmade/Spyderco/etc. folder in my pocket or butt pack. To me a knife was a tool, not a weapon, and they primarily opened MRE's and cut 550 cord.

[TWBryan]

I recommend a Victorinox swisstool ,and an endura. Jshirley,didn't you carry a khukuri during some of your military service?

[TimboKhan]

Just to make it clear, I am simply arguing my philosophy on this issue. I wouldn't make fun of, mock or think less of anyone who opted to go a different way than what I think. If a big knife offers you a certain amount of comfort, and you feel capable of defending yourself with it, then thats what you should carry. I am simply saying what my take on the issue is, and thats it.

[C-D-P]

Tim. Here is a question fer ya.

Say you feel more comfortable carrying that 1 pound knife.

Know that a 5.56 NATO round weighs .026 pounds.

By dumping that 1 pound knife he can now carry 38 more rounds. A heavier knife would obviously reduce the total load.

If he is too heavy he can not do his job. I am a big damn guy, and even I understand that ounces equal pounds.

An educated man would feel more comfortable with more rounds in a combat environment.

A knife is a good tool to have (they are great for opening MREs and playing mumbely pegs, and maybe cutting yourself out of a belt, if you actually wear one). But a big knife is a liability.

[TimboKhan]

If he is too heavy he can not do his job. I am a big damn guy, and even I understand that ounces equal pounds.

I might be the biggest guy to post on this board so I can dig that! Weight is one of the other reasons that I don't advocate a big knife. I was a machinegunner in the USMC, and when I was the ammo-man, I carried a ton of rounds, so every little ounce did count. However, the reason why I won't just say "screw big knives" is that if it gives a guy a little extra comfort or confidence when he goes out in the bush, thats worth a lot. Clearly, they don't offer me an ounce of comfort or confidence, but thats just me.

Weight from a different perspective is another reason I don't advocate a big knife. If I happen to have to go to knife-war wearing a full load, I am going to be pretty darn ineffective. Any guy that's humped a full combat load will say that your not at your most nimble with all your gear on. When I was the ammo man, I had enough weight on me that turning to fast would probably make me fall over, and I couldn't get it off all that quick either. As I became the gunner and the squad leader, my gear changed, but none of it made me particularly nimble.

But see, that's where my experience comes from. I wasn't a rifleman that had a different load distribution. This is why I won't say "no" to a big knife, but will argue against it philosophically.

[USMC-Mustang]

46's?

53E's

[C-D-P]

K I guess we are in agreement then. BTW, I was a 31 (Now a 69).

Were you WPNS Co or a WPNS plt?

53E's

Ok cool, so you fly the ones that don't fall down go boom as much.

[Mp7]

if non-folders are allowed - Glock M78 combatknife

if only small folders are allowed - a Boker Spring knife.


... i assume, like with guns - it´s best he goes to a shop and picks one!

[JShirley]

Jshirley,didn't you carry a khukuri during some of your military service?

TW,

Yes, I did, but that was while in the States, and in an environment that often had very high brush. I was a mortar maggot (11C), and our squad TOE included a machete so we could clear sight lanes to our sighting poles. I asked and received permission to swap my E-tool for a kukuri, with which we could do the job of the machete, and more. So, I carried no more weight that I would have.

I turned my E-tool back in before I left Camp Shelby for Afghanistan. :cool: And still had too damn much gear. Like some others here, I was in an MOS which often had me carrying a 35-lb weapon (M225 cannon, M8 baseplate, M170 bipod, and M64 sight). This would be in addition to either an M9 or M4. Fortunately, this was only while we were transitioning from light infantry to an effective medium (Stryker) brigade. In Afghanistan, all my action was seen while attached as part of a five-man team to Tagab Fire Base, with a handful of ODA and other attached troops, and a few more Marine ETTs and two or three 11Bs in another small base a few hundred meters away.

Leadcounsel has given some very good gear suggestions. I and others just disagree on the fighting utility of a short blade versus a much longer blunt object.

John

[TWBryan]

JShirley-Thanks for clearing that up.:) . I personally like knives and would rather have one along,if I can't have a handgun,but understand the issue of carrying something you might never need. I still suggest a Victorinox Swisstool and an Endura.

[RONSTAR]

Id suggest something more then 3 inches when i was in the army they said the same thing but everyone had big knives anyways just my 2 cents

[poodlenme]

I want to thank all of you that have contributed to the discussion on what kind of knife; and how big a knife my nephew needs to use in Iraq. He is only 28 yrs old and in Calif. preparing at camp Pendellton to embark in July or Early August. I will not be able to see him again and since I do know some about knives and more now than I did, thanks to y'all input here. Again, very appreciated. I will be sending him something in the next few weeks. It looks like I will get him 2 or three items. A light with colored lenses. A good multi-tool and some kind of knife. Still dont know what kind? Any more suggestions would be appreciated. I personally would opt to purchase about a 4" blade either fixed or folder. I like the idea about the seatbelt cutter. Is there one knife than can do all that, besides a swiss knife? Something more durable? What do you suggest? Thanks again for your help in this decision. Its a bigger one than I thought it would be.

[Sir Aardvark]

Benchmade Mini-Griptilian!

[poodlenme]

oops typo, my nephew is only 18 years old and just finished boot camp last month. Theres a world of difference between a 18 year old and a 28 year old! Just wanted to let you now about my typo.
Thanks for all your help!

[RONSTAR]

go to http://www.blackhawk.com they have a knife called the cqb mark 1 I love it and you couldnt go wrong with it kinda spendy but I would have loved to get one of those after basic

[leadcounsel]

There are knives out there with a built in seatbelt cutter in the spine of the blade, and you could also use a gutting knife.

HOWEVER, after I gave it some careful consideraton:

The POINT of a seatbelt cutting tool is probably so that you keep a large blade away from your neck and body whilst hanging upside down or quickly sinking in a vehicle in a canal. In your haste, you could easy slice yourself open with too large of a blade.

The Army issued me a Benchmade seatbelt cutting tool. They are normally about $25.

The Gerber knife I have is $75 and comes with a seatbelt cutting tool in the set. These knives have fantastic hard sheaths too, and frankly a quality sheath is as important as a quality knife. It is hard plastic, has important molly vest compatability, and can also strap to a belt or leg. It has positive retention and also snaps over the handle. The sheath alone is probably worth $40. And the knife alone is probably worth $60+. And then there's the cutting tool - which I have no opinion on because I don't have this particular cutting tool with me, but have it at home still unopened.

Again, people vary on their viewpoint of the utility of a knife this size. You may want to find out if he 1) can have it and 2) would even want it.

Finally, spend $10 and get something special engraved on the blade. Deployment can be very lonely and it may give him comfort in his lonliest times. His name, unit, a short inspirational saying like "Semper Fi" or something to that effect. Engravings are priceless.

http://www.knivesplus.com/gerber-knife-lmf-gb-1400.html

[bmanrkg3]

I've always been a fan of the ruggedness of a busse knives. scrapyard knives are usually the same type of material as busse knives, cept they've got a rubber handle, and generally black blade finish and are a lil cheaper... just my .02

[soccergod04]

+1 on a waved Endura.

[hso]

frankly a quality sheath is as important as a quality knife.

Truer words have never been spoken in this context. The carrying system is arguably as important as the knife what with all the gear being carried by modern soldiers.

Harness cutters come in many forms these days from the Gerber shown by leadcounsel to the classic Benchmade hook to the various versions by CRKT and the clever SOG folder designs to the old pilot's switchblade with shroud cutter.

[olivedrab]

I just returned from a tour about a week ago

the knives in my platoon were CRKT, Benchmade, Cold Steel AK47, Ka-Bar folders

[Carl Levitian]

Our niece did a tour in Iraq last year, and she was issued a Gerber multi-tool that she said did everything she needed. She is army, not marine, but thier unit C.O. had issued the same order of no fixed blade knives. Most of her fellow army personel carried multi-tools and some one hand folders like Benchmade and Spyderco.

[JShirley]

leadcounsel's Gerber suggestion is a very good one. Also get him this (http://www.newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=44919). He can tie one of these onto a lightweight carabiner with some 550/type 2/3 cord, and snap it onto his IBA.

John

[leadcounsel]

Here's a picture of me in theater...

You can see my Gerber across my chest. It's not overwhelming in size and it has never been caught on anything. I believe the total weight of the knife and sheath is just over 1 lb. The knife weights like 12 oz and the sheath probably 5 oz. I also have an LED flashlight affixed to the sheath. I have my Benchmade seatbelt cutter fastened between two mag pouches on my front, but that may move to another location soon.

[LongRider]

IMO you can not get a better knife than a MercWorx knife at any price. They are handcrafted top of the line knives at production knife prices. Each is made by a single craftsman their folders are made with BG-42 steel cryogenically treated to a RC 58

Here is the Tactical Knives (http://www.mercworx.com/PDFS/Tactical Knives2007.pdf) article about their knives Other articles are available at
MercWorx. Press (http://www.mercworx.com/EN/Press.html) I have an Equatorian Chili that I love it is my hunting camping strap to my motorcycle backpack go anywhere knife. I have cut rope skinned and butchered a buffalo including chopping through bone and removing his head and chopped wood all in the same day with my MercWorx knife. It was still sharp as a razor at the end of the day. I am not a combat vet, spec ops, SWAT or any kind of combat expert but some of the folks singing MercWorx praises are
Master At Arms, James A. Keating
Director / Combat Technologies
Master Sergeant Kim Breed,
Special Forces, Retired.
"Eric" US Navy SEAL, Group One, Director, Channel Island Tactical
Combat Veteran, Afghanistan
"C" US Navy SEAL, Group One
Combat Veteran Afghanistan
Peter Viereb
Edison ERT (SWAT)
You will find many more in the above articles. Here are some of their folders


Atropos (http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=24)
http://www.mercworx.com/images/ProductImages/Knives/mwAtropos.jpg

Clotho (http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=26)
http://www.mercworx.com/images/ProductImages/Knives/mwClotho.jpg

Lachesis (http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=25)
http://www.mercworx.com/images/ProductImages/Knives/mwLachesis.jpg

Without a doubt I am sure that you will be very happy with what you find from MercWorx and I have no doubt that your nephew will cherish the MercWorx knife you will give him until the day he passes it onto his son. I know if my son was going to the sand box it is a MercWorx knife I would give to him.

In closing please thank your nephew for his service and sacrifice. Thank his parents for having raised the kind honorable patriotic young man that represent the best of America. I am sure it is safe to say that all our hearts and prayers go with him.

[rswartsell]

Small combat units I observed in 'Nam always had a knife somewhere. Not every soldier, but someone had one. Don't remember any stories of hand to hand with them. Probably more for the bush. Afghanistan and Iraq may be different for terrain. In 'Nam the Ka Bar taped upside down to a TA 50 harness was very common.

[Big Sarge]

I'm deployed now. My first tour I carried a USAF Survival Knife on my IBA. Now with the restrictions, I carry my issued Gerber pocket tool (mandatory carry on IBA in our BDE) & a folding gerber skeleton in my pocket

[hso]

Big Sarge,

I gather that you are not permitted to carry a fixed blade on your IBA any longer, is this correct?

[XDKingslayer]

Ka-Bar.

Anything else would be uncivilized.

[Cosmoline]

I like the old school USMC bolos or trench knives.