Help convince Dad not to carry .32acp.

[myrockfight]

Ok. My dad is looking for a gun to carry for his concealed. My mother has very small hands and she needs a gun to suit her small hands. So they were out the other day and she came across a .32acp Beretta Tomcat.

It was the only one that she liked. However, they didn't buy it. I recommended that she shoot it and others before she decides on a purchase and I recommended that my dad do the same for obvious reasons.

I mentioned that I was going to order one of the German surplus SigSauers in 9mm. I have shot them before I and I like them. Plus, I hate to pass up a deal. I mentioned that he might want to wait to buy a carry gun for himself, because he might like mine enough to order one. So he replys that he is going to buy the .32 and carry it if my mother doesn't like it.

I told him again that he should shoot it before he buys it and that he will probably like to carry something with a little more umph. I said that most people will carry a minimum of a 9mm, especially with all the advancements in design for that cartridge lately. If you aren't going to carry anything else because it is too big then, by all means carry that. But come on.

I also told him that he might want something a bit larger that he would enjoy shooting more and he would most likely be more confident with.

He is stubborn as a mule and thinks he knows everything (Dr.) So I was hoping you guys could give me some good points to bring up to help me convince him that he should get something else.

Thanks for the ideas!

P.S. - I am not flaming the Tomcat or .32acps. They work great for some people and shot placement is always more important than caliber. But I know my dad - he isn't going to practice.

[fletcher]

If he isn't going to practice, it doesn't matter what he's going to carry. If he wants a .32, I'd just let him be.

[rcmodel]

Better a .32 in his pocket then a three pound .45 left at home because it is too big & heavy.

BTW: I have a gun-room in my home to keep my collection in.
I have .22's to magnum revolvers & big auto-pistols & everything in between.
But I most often carry a Kel-Tec P3AT .380 all the time.

rcmodel

[jhco]

ditto to rcmodel

[RevolverMan567]

I have handguns ranging from 22, to 41 magnum and all in between, including a little tip up barrel tomcat in 32 acp. That pistol has never failed in anyway while firing, and with companies like federal making hydrashocks for it, i carry it ALOT with a pocket holster. It is a fine gun and an adquate self defense round for close quarters like you will be shooting if that day ever comes. If parents like it and will carry it, let them get it, because as mentioned above, a 45 or 9mm left at is useless. just my .02Cents.

[22-rimfire]

He could choose worse. I have no problem with his choice. I would suggest he look at the new Ruger however in 380ACP. It will pack a bit more punch and be about the same size a lump in his pocket.

[RevolverMan567]

something else i thought about too. I worked in a gun shop througout college, luckiy the owner preferred that we not work on comission so we could focus on selling the best gun possible for the intention to the person lking, and not worry about quotas or putting food on the table.

Many times I saw someone come in and pick out the gun they liked, usually women, only to be beaten to death by the man they were with to buy the "bigger, badder gun"

Most of these bugger badder guns came back a few weeks later because they hated it, dont talk them out of what they want if they want it because then may be very unhappy with the suggested replacement. let them get one they will be happy with so they can learn to love and trust it.

[Titan6]

I don't like .32s. Seems marginal for gophers to me. Still, the bad guy dosen't have to know that. As long as they don't tell anybody they have a .32 the most likely result that seems to occur in the majority of CCW situations (show gun, bad guy pees himself trying to get away or give up) seems likely.

What you really need to do is talk him out of getting anything or talk him into practicing.

[Ala Dan]

In a shootout, "any gun is better than no gun at all"~! ;)

[Huddog]

You can use all the old standard arguments about how the .32 is not sufficient for self defense and how it is now possible to get a .380 in the same size package. However, once you point out these things it is his choice and the number one rule of self protection with a firearm is to have a firearm. So if he will carry the Tomcat but won't carry anything else then the Tomcat it is.

[XDShooter07]

I carry a .32 in the summer months when I'm only wearing a t-shirt and it's a very easy gun to aim and put right where I want the rounds. I would have pity on any fool that was opened up on inside 10 yds with a .32. And from a medical standpoint; those smaller calibers can cause more damage than the bigger ones at times because they go in and don't come out, but inside they ricochet around hitting multiple organs.......pretty nasty deal.

[The Bushmaster]

rcmodel...Can I come explore your gun room?

[Green Lantern]

If he isn't going to practice, it doesn't matter what he's going to carry. If he wants a .32, I'd just let him be.

+1

Better a .32 in his pocket then a three pound .45 left at home because it is too big & heavy.

+100!!!

If he'll practice with it, and carry it, I say let him go for it.

Just so long as he understands the limitations of it - which could be said for ANY caliber! Shot placement!

BTW, of late my main carry gun has been a P3AT, too. Hmm - about the only reason I'd try to talk him out of the Beretta would be to talk him into a slimmer and lighter P32 (if he's set on using a .32). :D

ETA - I do understand where the OP is coming from, mind you.

I have a loved one that has a .22 revolver for home defense, that does NOT make me feel all warm and fuzzy.....then again, I guess it's better than NO gun at all...

[rcmodel]

Say what you may, but the .32 ACP served most of europe as a police and military caliber for a very long time.

Seven or eight .32 bullets COM will give any BG another place to be and something else to do right quickly.

rcmodel

[VHinch]

My wife's EDC is a Tomcat. By no means my first choice, but after all the guns she has bought and tried, the Tomcat is the one that she will carry and practice with, and that's what counts.

[mljdeckard]

Yes, the Danish police carried .32 PPKs for many years. They also had orders to shoot to wound. The cop I was friends with in Denmark told me he wasn't even sure if his would even fire anymore. (They have since upgraded.)

I USED to say that it was ok to use smaller calibers to be able to have a compact guns, but this really isn't the case anymore. When you can get a sub-compact in 9mm, .357 sig, .40, or .45, it doesn't make much sense anymore.

I get that he has kind of talked himself into the idea, but maybe you could steer him towards a Makarov or, as someone else suggested, the new Ruger .380. These are a lot closer to what he already wants.

[Cosmoline]

Nothing wrong with a .32. I don't like the Tomcat very much, but I carried a Walther PP for awhile a few years back and really loved it. The first rule is to have a firearm, the second (in my book) is to have a firearm you can deploy quickly and shoot accurately. This means getting one you're totally comfortable with. These factors matter a lot more than the ft. lbs., esp. if you realize all short guns this side of a .44 Mag are pea shooters.

When you can get a sub-compact in 9mm, .357 sig, .40, or .45, it doesn't make much sense anymore.

Bah. Those tend to be brick-like, stumpy affairs with wicked recoil. I would never recommend them for anyone. With my old PP I could draw it without effort, aim it without effort and fire off a rapid string of extremely accurate shots without effort. There was no flinch, no fussing with a weird grip frame, and no nonsense.

[rcmodel]

the new Ruger .380. Why not get the real thing instead of a copy.

The Kel-Tec P3AT is the gun Ruger copied.

The P3AT is still smaller & lighter.

rcmodel

[Shade00]

Unfortunately I have my doubts about "convincing" him to go with anything else. My dad is a revolver guy and could not be "convinced" to shoot any of my semi-autos.

As others have said, a .32 is better than no gun at all; stress to him the importance of LOTS of practice if he is going to go with that gun.

The other thing I might be concerned about is the reliability of that little Beretta. I've heard a lot of mixed reports. He might be swayed a little if you can show him reports of failures, or if he shoots the gun and gets jams etc. Of course, I don't own one, nor have I shot one, so don't take this as anything but speculation. No offense to the Tomcat owners! :)

Has he picked up a S&W 637 or 642? They are physically larger but would definitely be my choice if I wanted just one gun for lightweight carry etc.

[Majic]

He is stubborn as a mule and thinks he knows everything
Sounds like you are the know-it-all in the family. Don't you think your dad can make the decision on what he prefers to carry?

[Mad Magyar]

I'll make your Dad a "sweet-deal" on this Germanic pocket-rocket....:D
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q148/veritas2369/OstrichMauser007.jpg

[myrockfight]

Ok guys. Yeah. We all know that any gun is better than none at all. That is a given. I meant to make a better point of that in my original post because I knew I was going to hear it 15 times over if I didn't. :rolleyes: Now how about an answer to the question I asked? :cool: :D

I would even like him to carry a .380 over a .32. I was looking at Remington's ballistics page and the .32 only has 129 ft/lbs at the muzzle where the .380 has 200 ft/lbs. Step up to the 9mm and get 400 ft/lbs.

So my point is - if you can get a more powerful cartridge in the same package and the recoil is manageable either way, why not pick the larger caliber? In the Kel-tec case the .380 and the .32 are virtually identical in size. With the cost of .32 ammo being higher, why would you choose the .32?


Once again, I am not knocking that choice for some people. There are obvious reasons that some people like it. Actually, I had planned on purchasing a Kel-tec or something of similiar sizeAnd just so you don't think I forgot Any gun is better than no gun at all! :neener::D

[TAB]

Nothing wrong with a 32... yeah its underpowered compared to other rounds, I still would not want to get shot with it.

[skinewmexico]

rcmodel hit the nail on the head. And face it, the Tomcat meets Rule #1 of a gunfight.

[blkbrd666]

If he's not going to practice, then what difference does it matter what he carries? A miss with a .50 BMG isn't any more deadly than a miss with a .22. I really only see the need to carry a hi-cap 9mm if I'm going somewhere dangerous where I might get attacked by a gang or if I'm going on a trip or away for a length of time, etc. As far as having the protection of a weapon, a .22, .32, .380 will all work if you know what to do with them and what not to try with them. I feel perfectly safe with a PPKS in .22 in most cases.

[telomerase]

He is stubborn as a mule and thinks he knows everything (Dr.)... I know my dad - he isn't going to practice.

Then .32 is too much... it will be plenty powerful to go through his foot.

Maybe you could point out that the Berettas tend to drop their magazines because the push-button release is too high... that would be good for him to know even if he decides to get it anyway.

[btg3]

Doubtful if he's not going to practice, but FWIW, would cost of ammo have any impact on your dad?

[mr.trooper]

Your problem is that your looking at ENERGY. Energy is intangible, and theoretical.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html

I carry one loaded with Fiocchi high velocity hollow points. I know those pills are going to penetrate 6-7" into a person; thats deep enough to deflate lungs, and puncture the heart and arteries.

I train to draw, and fire two double taps to the thoracic triangle. I don't care how bad-ass you think you are, or how many Steven Segal movies youv seen, your not going anywhere with two deflated lungs and a .22 in your spine.

[RevolverMan567]

for what its worth, again, my tom cat is dead nuts, never jams, always puts the bullet right where I want it. I think if he is loking for a good reliable gun in a small package he should get it,

but that being said, it sounds like you have already made up YOUR mind for HIM. This conversation was over, err never started...when you said something to the effect of "help me talk my dad out of this round because i dont like it, and let me know all of your horror stories just to help me make the point."

:scrutiny:


seems that the consensus is that you should just let him get the one he likes so he wil be happy with it and more likely to use it and become proficient.

[Blarelli]

Hey, the best way to talk him out of getting the .32 is coming up with a rockin' alternative. There are several very impressive sub-compact 9mm's that would fit that bill, especially if he is willing to spend as much as a beretta costs.

Try him out on a CZ RAMI, a Kahr CW series, Glock 19, XD sub, or even some .380's like the beretta cheetah, or bersa thunder or thunder cc. If your mother liked the beretta .32 then she should like both the bersa thunder, and the beretta cheetah.

[Glockman17366]

Considering the very short range most people would have to deal with in a self defense situation, that little Tomcat will do fine.
I've also read the mixed reviews concerning their reliability. All I can say, mine goes bang when I pull the trigger. And, that tip up barrel is a nice feature, IMHO...especially for your Mom.

I do suggest you tell your Dad to grip it low though. A high grip on a Tomcat will likely result in a slide bite.

I'd leave him be...he made his choice. Anyway, the only handgun I'd suggest for him (as an alternative) would be a .38 revolver...one of the light weights (which is what I carry most frequently)

[tinygnat219]

Well, I agree that the .32ACP is a crappy Self-Defense round. However, if this is the ONLY firearm or caliber combination he will carry, well that's his call. My wife hates guns, hates them and hates them. All except for her .22 Semiauto rifle. When she expresses an interest in going to the range. I stop whatever I am doing and take her with me. It's not often she expresses an interest. I get her a separate lane, a brick of .22 LR and let her fly.

She expressed interest in a handgun the other day, but wanted a "revolver only" since it doesn't fling brass everywhere. No problem. I walked her through firing some .38 SPL Wadcutters in a 686 S&W .357. She did pretty good groups and it got her confidence up. Now, when she takes her NRA Basic Pistol course, she has a .357 she will use.

My point is, if someone has a particular fascination with a specific caliber, support their decision. If he witnesses some crime, or reads some reports on crime in his area, he might start looking at that .32ACP pistol as being small and will ask for something bigger, or start looking at something bigger. In short, let the .32ACP be the gateway caliber. At least he's not fixated on .22 for Self-Defense.

[XDShooter07]

If he's not going to practice, then what difference does it matter what he carries? A miss with a .50 BMG isn't any more deadly than a miss with a .22.

I beg the differ, you might kill somebody with the miss on the .22 but with the miss on the .50 you might kill about 20 people in the building it strays into.

And everyone knows the shockwave of the .50 is enough to kill you with a miss inside 10 feet.

Geez. :cool:




Sorry, wanted to sound the mall ninja at my local shop. :barf:


Anyways, rockfight: I know you want your dad to be well protected but he needs to carry what he's comfortable with. If you persuade him into something he doesn't want then he might not carry it and he might not have confidence in it. I know it's what you want but it's not what he wants. Think of anytime when your dad tried to convince you of something you didn't agree with.

[razzle]

Due to the weather here in southern Alabama, I often carry a P32. I'd rather have it with me than nothing. Also my first handgun was a 32 Walther PP and I still carry it on occasion.

[myrockfight]

Doubtful if he's not going to practice, but FWIW, would cost of ammo have any impact on your dad?

I was wondering that myself. He looks at things in an odd way. He will spend (blow) thousands of dollars by overpaying for something because he doesn't do any research. He paid a guy 30K to do two days worth of dozer work. Yet he won't pay $20 more for a tool that is inarguably a $100 worth of quality more.

I guess that is what bugs me. He doesn't do his research. I just don't want him to blow this. It is a little more important than a hole in the ground.

I'm trying to impart what I know about the subject, which is admittidly not exactly encyclopedic. That is why I am asking for some help in this area.



And let this be said: I don't ever have my mind made up about anything. Now that some of you guys have gone off all full of yourselves and figure you have something to tell someone here, why don't you ask a few questions? I'm not immovable on any subject. There are very few things that I will say that I know as fact. I think people are taking one of my posts and assuming a lot about me and my agenda and motivations. While my first post in this thread may sound close-minded, I was simply asking for help with a particular problem as I saw it. It is very low road to make character judgements based on one persons inquiry on a particular subject. I'm a bit disappointed with the way some people have answered my thread. However, I am appreciative of those who have chimed in with a positive tone, especially if they are trying to convince me that I need to change my opinion.


But I haven't ever shot anyone, let alone with every caliber in every situation. So I can't say with certainty that a .32 will or won't put down a person. I can't say a .380 or 9mm or (insert any commonly carried caliber) will do the job.

[McCall911]

I don't know about the "stopping power" of a .32 ACP or witnessed a shooting with one, but I'm reasonably certain that getting shot with a .32 is anything but harmless. Guns in this caliber have been used as self-defense for about 100 years, so apparently they've worked at some point.

[jad0110]

I guess that is what bugs me. He doesn't do his research. I just don't want him to blow this. It is a little more important than a hole in the ground.

In that regard, what kind of firearms experience does he have? Any? If he doesn't have any, I'd be more concerned about his lack of firearm safety skills than his gun preferences.

If he is a noob when it comes to gun safety, at least coach him on the 4 Rules and other common sense approaches to gun safety. Better yet, encourage him to enroll in a gun safety course or something of that ilk.

[Z71]

Bigger is likely better, but concealed carrry needs to be concealable! Also needs to be shootable.

I wouldn't be scared of the booger man with a .32acp. I've got .32's in my collection ranging from FN1900's to West German Walther pp's. Some are expensive and some are "El Cheapo", but all have been surprisi gly reliable and accurate.

Just remember that WWI was started with a double murder commited with a .32 auto. It's a satisfactory cartridge for killing people.

I've done quite a bit of small game hunting with various handgun calibers, and none of them are all that whoopie on ultimate killing power until you get to the magnums. Even the mighty .45 auto ain't all that it's cracked up to be.

If your really serious about blasting something to death, my minimum would be a 4" .357 mag.

[oneounceload]

If he, and your mom, don't have a lot of gun experience, why not take them to a range where they can rent different types?....Give them both the treat of a gun safety course and SD course. As someone mentioned above, let this be his FIRST gun, and as time goes on, he might show interests in others. I got my first spouse a Beretta 21A, the 22 version - it was all she could physically handle - not the greatest, but 8 hits from that would be better than nothing at all, so take him, your mom, their new 32 to the range with you when you go so they can practice......

[Brian Williams]

Why, it works when it is all you can get.

[sig228]

Rimlock

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/rimlock.htm

[The_Shootist]

Nothing wrong with a .32 - up close and personal, stuffed with quality ammo
(Hydra-shoks, Silvertips, etc) if it goes bang it should get him out of harms way. I carry my P-32 when I have to be in business attire/deep concealment and have no qualms about it.

In fact, I took it out today on its "once a quarter" range trip and at 7 yds had no problem landing all shots either in the bullseye or at least on the outer bands. Good enough for a pocket-postol.

But yeah my normal minimum is my Taurus M85 stuffed with Buffalo Bore or more usually my G19 loaded with Golden Sabre's.

[Cosmoline]

My dad is a revolver guy

That's an interesting idea. Have you asked him about wheelguns? He might be more willing to be flexible there.

My mother has very small hands and she needs a gun to suit her small hands.

Another point in the revolver's favor. Most classic wheelguns have very small grip frames. By swapping stocks or adding a t-grip the same sidearm can be used by people with very different size hands.

[myrockfight]

If he, and your mom, don't have a lot of gun experience, why not take them to a range where they can rent different types?....Give them both the treat of a gun safety course and SD course. As someone mentioned above, let this be his FIRST gun, and as time goes on, he might show interests in others. I got my first spouse a Beretta 21A, the 22 version - it was all she could physically handle - not the greatest, but 8 hits from that would be better than nothing at all, so take him, your mom, their new 32 to the range with you when you go so they can practice......

He is not completely inexperienced. He has always had long guns, but he is new to handguns. He took a beginner's self-defense handgun class to fill the requirement in FL for the CWP. He is not inept. He knows his safety rules and all that.

He just doesn't know much about tools - the quality of and which one fits which job. He just isn't familiar. I have been telling him the same thing - we need to go and put some pistols through their paces at a range that has rentals. I just don't want him to make the mistake of not doing that and settling on something when he doesn't know what he doesn't know. Know what I mean :)

[Australian Shooter]

Any gun is better than no gun at all!

Amen to that.

[lions]

Save your breath convincing him to get this or that and use it to convince him to practice. Not practicing much more serious than choosing a "questionable" caliber.

[MachIVshooter]

He needs to get the gun he wants. He may change his mind later, and opt for something larger/more powerful. Engage him in conversation about it as time goes on, but do so respectfully.

Most of us go through a number of guns before we find our ideal carry pieces. I have gone through over a dozen and at this point have settled on my Witness Compact 10mm for winter, my S&W CS45 for summer and a P3AT for those times when you just can't carry anything else.

[Old Fuff]

I had a friend that was a senior officer in the British SAS (Strategic Air Service) which in their army is sort of a combination of our Green Berets and Delta Force, with a fair amount of undercover intelligence work thrown in. He was very adept with any small arm you might want to mention, and exceedingly comfortable with the .32 ACP cartridge and Colt 1903 Pocket Model pistol, which he called the, “Model M.” His considerable practical experience was not based on theory or reading of ballistic tables. He had, over the years smelled plenty of gunpowder under circumstances where business met business. So long as your dad picks a good quality pistol that’s reliable I wouldn’t worry too much. As you get older you’ll hopefully learn that what goes on in the real world doesn’t always match up to what you read in magazines or on the Internet. ;)

[Majic]

I'm trying to impart what I know about the subject, which is admittidly not exactly encyclopedic. That is why I am asking for some help in this area.
You are getting help. The vast majority supports the little .32 but it seems that is not what you want to hear.

[Jeff F]

James Bond carried a .32 and it worked well for him. I have a mouse gun in .32 acp that I carry from time to time, carries well in a pocket holster and is very concealable. If you put them in the right place they should get the job done. If you check out Cor Bon and Buffalo Bore, they have a couple .32 acp loads that up the power level a notch with better bullets then the old hardball loads.

[highlander 5]

Your father sounds like my late uncle "21st century? who needs this stuff" I carry a 32 acp myself and have had people laugh at me for my choice but remember 1 thing I was told by a much wiser man than I "NO one wants to be shot even if it's a .22"

[CajunBass]

He is stubborn as a mule and thinks he knows everything (Dr.) So I was hoping you guys could give me some good points to bring up to help me convince him that he should get something else.

Let's see. He won't listen to you, so He's stubborn?

Hello Pot. Have you met Kettle?

[macp]

Tell him to load it with hardball of the highest velocity you can find (for penentration) and to fire multiple rounds if he has to use it.

[Squidward]

Buy him the .32, a good holster, some quality ammo and give them to him. Then take him to the range!

It doesn't matter who is right; he's your dad.

[Rustynuts]

Show him this video on shooting water jugs with a 45. About half-way they shot the jug twice with a 380. Barely moves it, then the 45 BAAAM! Then tell him the 32 will just bounce off the jug!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9OoaKyKVtw

[MachIVshooter]

Show him this video on shooting water jugs with a 45. About half-way they shot the jug twice with a 380. Barely moves it, then the 45 BAAAM! Then tell him the 32 will just bounce off the jug!

A Winchester silvertip fired from my Tomcat had no trouble fully penetrating this 6" block of dense clay after 4 layers of denim. A Remington 9mm 124 gr. JHP made it just over 10" in the same clay.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/32Silvertipjpg.jpg

[Seafarer12]

I keep a P32 in my car and have no worries if I ever have to use it.

[ArchAngelCD]

Sorry, I can't help you convince your Dad not to carry a .32 Auto because I don't think there's anything wrong with carrying a .32 Auto. Have him buy some 60gr Fiocchi SJHP ammo. (not the XTP stuff) It's rated at 1200 fps with 205 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

[PaulBk]

Buy him the .32, a good holster, some quality ammo and give them to him. Then take him to the range!

It doesn't matter who is right; he's your dad.

There ya go. As a subborn dad (who carries a .32ACP regularly) that is the best quote in this thread. I'd love for my son to get me a holster, ammo, or some range time. What I carry, like what I drive, is solely my decision. :)

-Paul

[MICHAEL T]

He is a big boy and can choose for himself . 32 been around a long time many here and other boards carry one . M wife carries a 32 Kel Tec as do I some times.
Ive even been knowen to carry a Iver Johnson top break 38S&W .
He will carry his choice and leave yours at home.

[searcher451]

The .32 is an admirable round. It was the cartridge of choice for police forces around the world for years and years. There's plenty enough horsepower there to get the job done.

[Maia007]

Cosmoline and Old Fuff express my sentiments exactly. I think I would like these guys if I met them.

Your father is an adult. Moreover, he is your father. You should give him the benefit of your opinion, but perhaps you should also respect his wishes.

[Tomcat47]

I think you should shoot the .32 Tomcat with him! And reevaluate your opinion.

I do not think you have experienced a Baretta .32 you are relying on someone elses opinion of a .32 Baretta

Also go read a few self defense articles regaring caliber etc. at
www.internetarmory.com

I am a fan of the Baretta .32
and I would hate to be on recieving end of it from some one that knew how to use it.
And it is very easy to carry!

.380 barely moved it! .32 bounced off! ........In the words of my Paw Paw!....... Horses ASS!

[PX15]

JMOFartO:

Well, I'm not your Dad, but I am an old fart(65), and I DO carry a 32cal. pistol for self defense daily.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6811_01.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8018.jpg

Here's my reasoning.

The chances of your Father & Mother actually needing a concealed weapon for self defense, unless they use and buy drugs on a regular basis from some low life who's place of business is on some back street in a bad neighborhood is extremely SLIM.

The 32cal. round, contrary to popular thinking, is pretty effective if you chose a high quality self defense round. The Winchester Silvertip for example has an actual one shot stop record in excess of 60%... Additionally there are several other 32cal. rounds (Cor-Bon/Buffalo Bore, etc.) that offer improvements over the Silvertip. My Seecamp LWS32 offers 6+1 capacity so my thinking is that I'll let the first round take care of the first 60+% of the stopping business, and the remaining 6 rounds resolve any continuing issues..

Statistics show (well, anything), the vast majority of confrontations of the type your parents are concerned about happen very quickly, very close up, and are over with very few shots fired...

My 32cal. Seecamp LWS32 has no external sights.. That is not an oversight. The maker of the fine LWS32 (Ludwig Seecamp, and now his Son, Larry) believe, as do I, that in a close up confrontation you (or your Father) would be looking directly at the THREAT, and not trying to acquire a perfect sight picture. Close up and personal you pull the pistol from your pocket, point it at the threat (in the manner of pointing your index finger at something) and then when that threat is close enough that you have to make a decision that you have no choice but to defend yourself with potentially lethal force you pull the trigger.... Seven times.

"Practice makes perfect" as they say, but truthfully beyond becoming comfortable with the pistol of his choice and shooting enough rounds through that choice to become familiar with the firearm it is simply NOT necessary to do a tremendous amount of practice when the target you will be aiming at is say, THREE-SIX feet away from you.

All you need to do is buy a quality weapon, determine it's reliability, put the best ammo in it you can buy, become familiar with it, put it in your pocket.

Chances are very good your Father will never need a firearm, (Yeah, I was just kiddin' about the drugs), but it will give him reassurance that should the unthinkable occur he will have something to defend himself, or your Mother with.

My LWS32 in a rear wallet style pocket holster does not "print". It can be carried almost anywhere, anytime. It will NOT discharge itself and shoot your Dad in the butt, and the heavier DA trigger prevents ND's/AD's from regular folks.. (Not idiots).

Hope this helps. I carry my LWS32 daily and feel fully armed and safe.

Just personal opinion, no offense to folks with differing opinions. All I can say is if I trust MY personal safety with a 32cal. pistol that should tell you I believe in the round.

Yes, I have other pistols for cc too.. But truthfully there is a limit to the size of a firearm you can cc most places. Even when I am cc one of those I cc my LWS32 also.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

P.S. Did I mention I recommend the LWS32? (My wife's choice too.)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_9658_01.jpg

[grimjaw]

I submit that the reason .32 ACP is not a more lethal round has less to do with its effectiveness and more to do with medical advances and trauma surgery. We're just too darned good at keeping people alive today.

Now, whether or not being shot with .32 ACP will convince your attacker to stop attacking, I don't know. But I'm betting getting shot with even a .22 is going to be convincing for the majority of incidents.

jm

[jackstinson]

I was looking at Remington's ballistics page and the .32 only has 129 ft/lbs at the muzzle where the .380 has 200 ft/lbs.
Well, you were looking at Remington's page. Have a look at some of the foreign ammo where they USE .32acp more. Sellier & Bellot .32acp is rated at 177fpe. That is what I use it my .32acp carry guns.
And as you stated yourself that there have been ammunition advancements over the years, that's not exclusive to 9mm. There are a many potent .32acp options available now other than the standard Remington FMJ or WWB. Just make sure the gun can hold up. Or keep a hot round chambered and milder in the magazine.
As for the crop of smaller 9mm and larger carry guns, I personally can't shoot them repeatedly without doing damage to my hand. Big frames, no problem...but those little big-bore wonders are brutal on some of us. I need to keep using my hand, and I need to practice shooting what I carry....so smaller cartridges in the small frame guns work better for my situation.
Folks tend to say "THIS" is best for all people in all situations....nothing is best for all.
Let them carry what they will shoot, can shoot, and will carry.
I'm not sure "most people carry 9mm or larger". Perhaps most people who frequent THR, but in the real world?
Jack

[buzz_knox]

My father went from not carrying to carrying whenever he is clothed. The reason is that he got a Seecamp .32.

Better a .32 and the willingness to use it than nothing.

[Warty]

I submit that if he isn't willing to practice, it may well be better if Dad simply decided not to carry a gun at all. Not practicing your draw nor practicing with your firearm to be familiar with its workings is a sure way to get it taken from you in a confrontation. Then it is usually YOU who has to worry about getting shot with your gun.

Tell Dad to forget all about guns if he isn't even willing to practice once in a while with it..

[PX15]

jackstinson:

I agree with you that, because of various circumstances, most folks cannot carry a 9mm pistol in the real world. The ONLY 9mm pistol I should think might be acceptable for daily cc (because of it's size and weight) is the fine Rohrbaugh, and it will is not approved for +p's, requires a recoil spring change every 100rds or so, and costs over a thousand bucks..

Even the small Rohrbaugh is sufficiently larger than the LWS32/380 to preclude it's use for ME as a pocket pistol.

I have options, and when wardrobe and circumstances allow I prefer carrying one of my 9mm pistols with DoubleTap 115 jhp's, but EVEN then I still have the LWS32 in my back pocket.

If you wish to consider a 9mm check out the Walther PPS. (Pictured above the HK P7). The PPS was designed as a replacement for the aging PPK series of Walther pistols, but is very THIN, very light, offers the better 9mm round (over the 380) and won't bite the hand that feeds it as the original German PPK is so prone to do.

But on a daily basis, under most conditions the pistol in MY back pocket is my Seecamp..

Best Wishes,

Jesse
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_9649.jpg

[Smithiac]

Have you consider having him and her look at a Walther PPK/S in .380 I just got one in I also have a Berretta Tomcat they are very similar in size. Also the availabilty of ammo is an argue point. If your going to buy a gun and only one gun for the purpose of carring/ shooting you will need ammo and more than one box at times. does your local WalMart carry ammo for a .32 I bet they do for a .380 and I know they do for 9mm.

Thats my 2 penny's hop it helps

Smithiac

[sm]

Old Fuff wrote in post number 48:
As you get older you’ll hopefully learn that what goes on in the real world doesn’t always match up to what you read in magazines or on the Internet.

I had mentors such as Old Fuff speaks of.
These actually preferred the 32ACP over the .380.

Re: Tomcat.
Early versions had some teething problems, which have been taken care of by the fine folks at Beretta.

These guns conceal very very well, and for most folks point extremely well.
I base this on the fact, that me and mine had students try a variety of guns, both revolvers, and semi autos, from .22 lr, on up, including Glocks, Sigs, HKs, Rugers, Berettas, ...to you name it.

Anywhere from 25 to 100 handguns, and the students actually picked them up, were allowed to see how they came apart, went back together, and shot them.
Add, holsters, doing the best we could with what we had, plus other folks letting folks try holsters.

5 yds, 5 shots, shoot the guns and the paper does not lie, as to what a student shoots best, in regard to platform, manual of arms, caliber, and ammo type.
Beretta Tomcat always did very well with this drill.

This drill was used by student to find what gun worked for them, to hell with anyone else, what they said, or anyone else said.

New students of course, same drill works for those that have had injury, sickness, surgery or other physical limits.
Age takes its toll and where one might have run a gun and load, Neuropathy of hands or arthritis can and does require investigate and verify what works for them. Add, Doctor's orders in regard to no recoil.

Yeah I know, Reality sure puts a damper on being a armchair ranger, or those gurus-n-groupies.


This how I was raised, and how I still prefer and suggest this "what gun for____?" and all , over teh Intrawebz hype.

Those assisting included those in Military, LEO, ladies that had served in IDF and some other interesting folks.

Teh Intrawez will tell one they have to rack a slide as anyone can do so using their method, and everyone that does not top off a mag is an idiot.
Some of these Intrawebz folks are actually instructing other folks, and have all of 5 years or less experience in all this stuff.

Groupies need a Guru, and Gurus needs groupies in the circle jerk of egos and making money - your money - to widen the circle jerk.
Do what you want, as none of these folks are going to be at your gunfight in all reality.

Now pay attention all of you so into safety, and allow me to add kids to this.

-You are required by your jurisdiction to unload and make safe a gun in a setting.
Maybe having to enter a police station, or something similar, and guns are unloaded and checked into a lock box.

-Maybe in traveling, you are about to enter a non-gun friendly setting, again, requiring one to drop mag, clear chamber, and separate mag from gun.
Once out of this area, you may load up and make the gun ready to use, as you are legal to do so.

i. Tip up guns such as this Tomcat, and Revolvers allow one to do much easier, and safer.

-Every round is accounted for, which is a safe thing for both checking guns in and out, and you.
-In a vehicle, once over the state line, or whatever line of demarc is, one can much easier, and safely load a gun in a moving vehicle.

Many of you do not like Israeli draw, still one advantage is, the cleared gun does have a mag, and it cannot go off by accident, or negligence, and therefore sending a bullet into one of your kids in that mini-van going down the road...whatever.

I sorta doubt many walk around with a "safe bucket" to point a gun into to rack slide and get a round chambered...I don't.

So if safety is as so say, then "Maybe" Israeli draw, or a Tip Up / Tomcat, or Revolver is not such a damn fool idea after all.
The Reality is, folks have been doing this before Intrawebz groupies were a itch in their daddy's britches.

Your choice as to whom you listen to...

Can you have your wife, or husband, or anyone, put a gun in your pocket, or purse, and make that gun safe without anyone knowing you did, and did so safely?

Mentors had a neat lesson, one they actually used in places where the "Police" shot folks for whatever reason, such as checkpoints, or two many gathered in a setting...

No Tomcat's back then, still other tip up Beretta's and of course revolvers...
I would just have someone place a gun in my coat pocket, like in getting a hug, and then as I walked, with one hand in pocket, load up and make that Beretta or revolver ready to use.


There were not some guns back then, we have today.
I have had to be in settings, where it was a Federal Offense to have a gun, and leave for lunch, and some lady gave me a gun once out of the building and legal for me again ( like a hug) and we walk to lunch, or something, and then I pass the gun back before I re-enter that building again.

Original Post: this Dad sounds pretty smart, and some Doctors, do know some of those that have real life experiences, such as Old Fuff shared about, and others such as OSS.

*think*

[Old Fuff]

I had mentors such as Old Fuff speaks of. These actually preferred the 32ACP over the .380.

Sometimes for good reason. Two popular models, the Colt 1903 Pocket Model and the Walther PPK were originally designed to use the .32 ACP / 7.62mm Browning cartridge. Both were later modified to use the larger .380 ACP / 9mm Kort, and both had functional problems with the larger round. This is not to say they wouldn't work, at least most of the time, but the smaller .32 cartridge had a better history of reliability.

During World War Two the Navy noticed the problem, and came down on Colt. As a result they made some modifications to both the pistol and magazine. Thereafter new .380 pistols (or those that were later modified) were stamped with an "M" prefix before the serial number, and the magazines were also stamped with the same letter.

Today many of those that own a .32 Poket Model wish it was a .380, and sometimes go to the trouble and expense of having one converted without understanding any of the history I've related above.

[hhb]

Don't forget that the .32acp started World War I and the .32acp ended World War II in Europe. With those credentials, he can't go wrong. When the chips were down, it did it's job!

[springmom]

The reason you're not getting a list of arguments to use on your dad is that your dad isn't doing anything most of us find objectionable. Besides, fret not; your mom may end up really liking that Tomcat and carrying it herself, at which point you take your dad shooting with that new Sig.

Patience, grasshopper. He may yet come around to your way of thinking.

You didn't say how old you are...I can tell you that I'm 53 and my father STILL doesn't listen to me much. You're probably fighting a losing battle trying to teach a parental unit much (that sound you hear is all MY kids saying "AMEN TO THAT".) :neener:

Springmom

[gtd]

OK, I'm a Dad.

I have two .380 autos (Bersa and Kel-Tec) and a .32 Rossi revolver. I'm comfortable with the .32, and I have the .380s for fun and everyday carry. In fact, the .32 was purchased for my wife, a long time ago, as a wise, expedient, affordable response to an immediate problem. I also have an old 12-gauge side-by-side double.

I could easily get a Glock .40 or an AR-15, or something like that.

My son might prefer a Howitzer or 100 hand grenades or a .30-.30 or a .45 auto in each pocket or 50 Claymore mines. But he's just a kid -- what the hell does he know?

I know after many years and some real experience -- which I don't care to explain to my son for reasons that aren't his business -- that a .32 or a .380 is plenty enough.

I'll carry what I want to carry, or I won't, so be it.

I still love him, and I'll buy him dinner. We'll just agree that I'm right (because if he says I'm wrong my hearing might not be so good that day!)

gtd

[myrockfight]

After listening and seeing a preponderance of evidence to the contrary, I must concede that the .32 is an adequate defense weapon. I will no longer try to convince my father otherwise. He doesn't listen anyway :D It would be nice to take one to the range. I'll have to find a range that rents one and drag my father along :)

Some of you guys have done an excellent job of giving your opinions, personal experiences, and facts to support carrying a .32 as a defensive handgun. Ironically it is now the smallest caliber I would carry.

So I must thank those who took the time to write a positive, substantive posts contrary to my opinion. You guys are the reason I, and others I am sure, keep coming back to THR to ask for opinions, advice, and help concerning firearms and related topics. Pat yourself on the back, buy yourself a beer, or treat yourself to a day at the range, you have done someone a good turn and it is greatly appreciated by myself as well as the rest of the THR community - I am sure.

[ByAnyMeans]

I agree, it makes me feel better about a .380 as well. It's nice not to have a million responses that it must start with a .4 to be any good.

NOW that the OP's question was answered I have one. To all you guys who feel a .32 is sufficient what about a .380. Should I use a round such as dpx or Buffalo Bore hollow point and feel it's good enough or give up expansion to ensure penetration with the ball ammo. What do you guys think about Buffalo Bore's flat nose at 100 gr and 1100 fps. It sounds as if the flatnose atleast won't zip right through like fmj yet still penetrates deep.

Thanks for your time

[makarovnik]

No. The .32acp is a good round. Have you ever shot a Walther PPK in .32acp? Smooth as butter and pretty close .380acp performance.

[McCall911]

My only .32 ACP is a Beretta Model 1935 made in 1955. I have carried it a few times, but IMO it's less than ideal. (The main problem is the awkward frame-mounted safety.)

My reason for using .32 ACP, flawed and faulty though it may be, is this: It is similar to 00 buckshot in caliber and bullet weight. (.309" and 60-73 grains vs .320" and 60 grains.)

[NeveraVictimAgain]

I would take Dad to a store that stocks Kel-Tec and let him see and feel how tiny and light the P3-AT is. For about the same size and less weight he can carry a .380.

Cosmoline,
You seem to be thinking of Glucks. Don't knock the sub-compacts until you've actually shot a KT P-11 in 9mm Luger. No, I don't work for KT but I know a great gun when I have one.

[NeveraVictimAgain]

ByAnyMeans,
If you want to carry a .380 and can afford the DPX then by all means go for it. There are others with a reputation for penetration with expansion such as the XTP and Gold Dot.
I'm going to try running some Gold Dots through my P3-AT and if they feed OK then that will be my EDC.

[springmom]

Myrockfight, I'm glad you were able to get some good feedback. This is a good place for info, you're right.

Springmom

[ByAnyMeans]

NeverVictimAgain: I'm not to worried about the cost (not rich but thankfully the gun I feel best with in pocket guns is the ruger which is 300 or less) and would pay for premium ammo since the smaller the caliber the more important the correct ammunition is. Were I do have trouble is all the different tests. Brassfetcher tests show only Federal Hydroshock and Hornady XTp meet FBI 12 in criteria yet other tests have shown Hydroshock to be the least penetrative and XTP to sporadically expand( can't recall all the tests but they were based on the sticky at KTOG). I have heard (all internet talk so I do take it with a grain of salt) that the LCP is to hard to handle when firing rounds like DPX or Buffalo Bore but I was only able to fire my friends a couple of rounds to feel it out with the ammo he had (don't recall what it was). I'm 6-4 260 and in great shape so by no means weak but at the same time if I fire the gun the round only matters if it hits them no matter what standards it meets. I'm so confused.

I'm gonna bang my head against the wall now to make all these thoughts try to go away.

[mavracer]

I've seen some good results from 102 grn golden sabers plus they can be found cheaper than BB or DPX.
my favorite load in 32 is the fiocchi 60grn SJHP it's HOT 1000 fps from my seecamp over 1200 from Walther.

[Majic]

Forget all the tests and the numbers generated. Most people that see and hear that they are being shot at become defensive and that slows down the attack. When they realize they are hit (and stopping power with any handgun is virtually a myth) a lot of the fight goes out of them. Pain and bleeding usually changes the priorities of the moment. There are no hard and fast rules but most animals, and the human is an animal, will retreat when it can when hurt unless it's defending something. So find a load that your firearm will reliably and accurately fire and become proficient at using the firearm. Don't worry about all the numbers.

[Eyesac]

So my point is - if you can get a more powerful cartridge in the same package and the recoil is manageable either way, why not pick the larger caliber?

I agree. Sounds like a good argument. Everyone on here is talking like .32 is enough like enough is what I want for my carry gun. I want as much as I can handle, not barely passable, or enough. If its a size issue (as in: he needs a gun the size of a deck of cards) well then i guess he's stuck w/ something like .32. But I doubt a .32 is as much as he can handle in a carry weapon.
32 in his pocket then a three pound .45 left at home It's catchy but but a: 9/40/45 in the pocket is better than a 32 in the pocket as far as i'm concerned.