What caliber has killed the most people?


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coosbaycreep
June 1, 2008, 07:59 PM
If I had to guess, this would be my list;
1. 7.62X39mm
2. 7.62X54R
3. .303 british
4. 9mm
5. .308
6. 8mm mauser
7. .223
8. .45acp
9. .30-06
10. .30 carbine
11. 22lr

1. I would guess 7.62X39mm first, simply because of how prolific AKs and SKSs have been the past six decades, even though they missed out on being used in both world wars, which were by far the bloodiest conflicts in history. I'm sure the popularity of rifles chambered in that caliber being used by gangs, guerillas, and third world nations probably helps close the gap though.

2. 7.62X54R has been around for ever. Mosins killed a boatload of people in WWII, and there's still people being killed with Mosins and Dragunovs.

3. Even though it's not nearly as common today, .303 british has been killing people since the beginning of time.

4. 9mm has been around over a century, and is still the most common handcun caliber in the world today. It's been a common caliber for sidearms and SMGs in almost every conflict, by almost every nation, and it's killed a lot of people in civillian murders too.

5.. .308 has been used by NATO for a very long time. It saw action in Vietnam and Korea with Americans, and has seen action worldwide by all kinds of third world folks using G3s, FALs, etc.

6. 8mm mauser, simply because of how many people were probably killed with it during both world wars. It was also adopted by other nations, and is still used today.

7. .223 because it's been the main cartridge of NATO for a long time, even though the conflicts it's been involved with haven't been as bloody as the conflicts that most of the older .30 cal. cartridges were involved in.

8. .45acp just because of longevity, and the fact that it was chambered in 1911s, thompsons, etc. It's killed a lot of people in the civillian world too, although still not as commonly used as 9mm.

9. .30-06 because of the M1 Garand, 1903, and BAR, all of which saw a ton of service. It was used by lots of other nations as well, and is still one of the most common hunting calibers, even though not too many people get killed while hunting.

10. .30 carbine because of it's use during WWII and Korea. The M1 carbine is the most highly produced small arm in American history.

11. .22lr because of how cheap and common it is, even though it's never been the official caliber of any nation's standard weapons, it's been killing people across the globe for a long time, and will never become obsolete.

Again, I'm just guessing about all of this, but am curious if anyone has a better idea of what small arms caliber has caused the most death and destruction throughout history.

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Treo
June 1, 2008, 08:08 PM
I've always heard .22 LR has killed more people than any other round on the planet, but who would compile such statistics?

High Planes Drifter
June 1, 2008, 08:08 PM
Hmmmm tough one. I think the .75 caliber Brown Bess should replace one of the selectons on the list.. I also think the .50 BMG should replace one of the selections.


Maybe the .45 and the .30 Carbine should be replaced (IMO). Pistols and pistol carbines actually play a very, very tiny role in actual combat.

ranger335v
June 1, 2008, 08:14 PM
The 7.7 Jap was used to kill an awful lot of people, tons of them were helpless civilians or POWs.

zxcvbob
June 1, 2008, 08:17 PM
What rounds did the Russians use in the WW's?

doc2rn
June 1, 2008, 08:18 PM
.22 lr is the winner according to all the data I could find. It seems the cheapest and most widly available caliber is in fact the deadliest.

pbearperry
June 1, 2008, 08:19 PM
My guess is 9mm and I am sticking to it.

cbrgator
June 1, 2008, 08:24 PM
Without any facts or stats to back this up, I'd have to say 7.62x39. It is used in the world's most popular assault rifle and is used to kill thousands every day. Be it the middle east, or practically the entire African continent, I would have to believe more people have died at the hands of that cartridge than anything else. Obviously it's not the world's most popular cartridge, but it is the most common in most of the worlds troubled regions and conflict zones.

Ragnar Danneskjold
June 1, 2008, 08:26 PM
I've always heard .22 LR has killed more people than any other round on the planet, but who would compile such statistics?

That data is specifically talking about domestic murders and the like

I think the OP is including wars and military deaths. Since no military uses .22lr, I think his list may be right on.

abrink
June 1, 2008, 08:29 PM
My guess is also .22LR. Very good killer, very poor stopper.

Auburn1992
June 1, 2008, 08:30 PM
What rounds did the Russians use in the WW's?

From all that I know was the 7.62x54R (their rifle/machinegun cartridge) and the 7.62x25 (their SMG/pistol cartridge. There is also the 7.62 Nagant (the revolver). Guess they really like the 7.62mm bullet...

Noxx
June 1, 2008, 08:32 PM
Guess they really like the 7.62mm bullet...

As they should. In 54mm it's a fantastic rifle round, in 39mm it's proved an effective carbine round.

Frankly we should have just adopted the damn thing ourselves.

SN13
June 1, 2008, 08:32 PM
.22lr is the winner for MURDERS. It's the favorite for hits and assassinations as the small lead bullet deforms and fragments into an un-traceable projectile when fired into the cranium of a target. Revolvers chambered in .22 leave no casing to be analyzed and without a projectile to compare ballistically, it's impossible to link the gun with a crime.

7.62x54R is the winner over all. Think about it. the x54R is STILL in use. SVD's, PKM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PK_machine_gun).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR

Created in 1891 and still in use today. Was used in the Russo-Japanese war, WWI, the Russian Revolution, The Winter War with Finland, WWII, Russia's Invasion of Afghanistan, etc.

Also consider that in the revolution, 7.62x54R was being shot by both sides against each other, same in the war with Finland that left hundreds of thousands dead.

Not to mention that every Republic in the U.S.S.R. was issued Hundreds of thousands of Mosin Nagants and x54R ammo to fight with. Russia supplied China with the x54R as well.

Basically the ONLY Round used in every major conflict in the past 120 years: X54R

So it wins most deadly in my opinion.

jfountain2
June 1, 2008, 08:38 PM
Bullets don't kill people. People kill people.

yesit'sloaded
June 1, 2008, 08:39 PM
1. I would guess 7.62X39mm first, simply because of how prolific AKs and SKSs have been the past six decades, even though they missed out on being used in both world wars, which were by far the bloodiest conflicts in history. Sorry I'm going to have to call you on that one. The SKS was issued to a few front line units in WW2 as well as a prototype sniper version. If I am not mistaken it was about like the Henry rifle use in the Civil War, not a main combat weapon but a weapon that saw service.

RP88
June 1, 2008, 08:40 PM
if I had to try and make a random guess in order...1 being most:

1. 7.62x39
2. 7.62x54R
3. 7.62x51
4. .30-06
5. 8mm Mauser
6. .303 Brit
7. .45acp
8. 9mm
9. 6.5 Arisaka
10. whatever the hell muskets were made in

SN13
June 1, 2008, 08:48 PM
If i had to guess "Fired most rounds" I'd agree with the 7.62x39.

But (not saying AK's are innaccurate because a good condition one is plenty good enough to hit a man at 500yrds) but have you ever seen the 3rd worlders SHOOT the AK? They SUCK at it. Spray and Pray... the Spray is to put bullets in the Air, the Pray is to put them on target by divine intervention.

x54R was used by MANY troops to shoot and kill Germans, Fins, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Americans, Afghanistanians, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Western Europeans, Eastern Europeans, Communists, Capitalists, Bolsheviks and Royalty.

My top 10:

7.62x54R
8mm Mauser
30-06
.303
.........

Wait, you know what? The question was What "Caliber"

SO I'm gonna say ".30 Cal"

Covers the 7.62x54R, x39, 30-06, .308, .303, .30 carbine....

I think I win :)

jakemccoy
June 1, 2008, 08:49 PM
I read somewhere it's .22LR. I'm not sure if the stat included wars.

Anyway, the inclusion of wars would not be interesting to me because the soldiers do not have choice of ammo. I'd be interested in the stats taken of only shooters who had choice of ammo.

Actually, I take all that back. This stat is not that interesting at all regardless how it's sliced.

(This same question question pops up about every 3 months.)

yesit'sloaded
June 1, 2008, 08:50 PM
I'd go with
1. 7.62x54
2. .303 (lots of dead Indians and Zulus not to mention wars)
3. 30-06 (WW1,WW2, and Korea)
4. 7.62x39 ( Vietnam, South America, Middle East, Africa)
5. 9mm (lets not forget submachine guns Sten,MP40, etc.)
6. 45ACP
7. 45LC
8. 8mm Mauser
9. 88mm (you didn't say small arms caliber)
10. I'll throw in the 68 caliber musket round

Hoppy590
June 1, 2008, 08:53 PM
dont forget Uncle Joe (Stalin) killed more people than hitler.
most of those were probably with X54r, X39 or X25

Ridgerunner665
June 1, 2008, 08:58 PM
I'd guess 7.62x39mm...how long have those guys over there in the Middle East been fighting with AK's??

Along with the guys killed in Vietnam from small arms fire, Central American drug cartels, all other communist countries.

SN13
June 1, 2008, 08:59 PM
Most of Stalin's kills were not x39... Remember AK-47 was created in 1947 :)

During 1937-1945 about 27million Russian Military Personel were killed or injured and 19million Civilians were killed. (http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html)

Cannonball888
June 1, 2008, 09:00 PM
I also believe 7.62x54R is at the top of the list for the world record.

Down South
June 1, 2008, 09:02 PM
22LR for USA.

BrianB
June 1, 2008, 09:04 PM
dont forget Uncle Joe (Stalin) killed more people than hitler.
most of those were probably with X54r, X39 or X25

I thought Uncle Joe just starved 'em in the gulags. I mean, those communists are pretty cheap, you know. Even with Russian ammo.

JWF III
June 1, 2008, 09:04 PM
I'd say bump the 9mm, .223, .308, and .45acp down the OP's list and slide .30-06 above them and it would be close. You got to remember the .308 wasn't the main caliber in any truly large war, while the -06 was our main caliber for 50+ years. Which also include both big wars, many dead Japs. and Germans form the -06. Not to forget Koreans. Also got to put the .223 ahead of the .308 because of Vietnam, Grenada, Gulf Wars 1&2, and Afganastan. As far as 9mm and .45acp, with the exception of smg's, very little front line kills. So maybe even bump the 9 down to in between .223 & .308.

PercyShelley
June 1, 2008, 09:07 PM
8mm Mauser. Used by the Germans in two WWs to extremely favorably kill ratios. Also used by Yugoslavia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Britain, Israel, and various others.

7.62x54R. Seen it's share of world wars, bushfires, revolutions and dissident executions. Still going strong!

.303 British. Back in the day the British were cold blooded killers who traveled the world to stomp on the face of freedom.

(Oddly enough they were more fun that way.)

7.62x39. Been used in an enormous number of small wars.

7.62x51 NATO. Ditto

7.65mm Argentine/Belgian Mauser. It was popular at one time and used in a number of wars. Some quite nasty.

7.62x38R. A lot of Russians and Ukrainians were quietly disposed of with nagant revolvers I imagine.

9x19mm. Probably a fairly large number of people killed with this.

7.62x25. Lots and lots of PPS and PPsh out there, and they weren't just used in WWII.



Obviously, the ideal caliber for combat is around .30 inch.

RNB65
June 1, 2008, 09:10 PM
7.62x54R gets my vote.

everallm
June 1, 2008, 09:15 PM
Biggest killer....Mk1 machete...remember that the next time you get the "Eeeeeeevil guns" diatribe.

Between April - July 1994 machetes were the weapon of choice for the estimated 800,000 deaths of the Rwandan genocide.

George C Morrison
June 1, 2008, 09:25 PM
My guess is the 8mm Mauser.I agree with Mr Shelley.
The Germans used it in both World Wars,the Turks with their Armenian genocide in 1915-1916.And the losing Germans outkilled the Russians by a large ratio.
If it's not #1 it is certainly near the top.
As was said by BrianB, Stalin used starvation to kill a great mass of farmers and prisoners.The Russians were also quite fond of using the pistol for execution after thousands of show trials during the Stalin purges of the '30's and 40's.

Cannonball888
June 1, 2008, 09:27 PM
Biggest killer....Mk1 machete
Between April - July 1994 machetes were the weapon of choice for the estimated 800,000 deaths
That's a drop in the bucket compared to what the 7.62 x 54R has done. Problem is most people think of only recent world history where the deaths from conflicts is relatively low.The 7.62 x 54R was invented in the 19th century, used in Russian imperial wars, Bolshevik revolution, Russian civil war, WWI, WWII, etc. I would estimate 50 million or more.

Mosin Nagant
1910 Maxim machine gun
Degtareyev
SVT 40

1911Tuner
June 1, 2008, 09:35 PM
Worldwide...military cailbers...the 7.62 X 39 hands down. Non-military cailber...very likely the lowly .22 rimfire. Almost everybody has a .22 somewhere. Even some fairly rabid antis that I know have .22 rifles.

SN13
June 1, 2008, 09:53 PM
Sorry, X39 is far from No. 1..... Do you watch the 3rd worlders shoot? I mean come on, someone please post the pictures from Africa of the guys shooting AK's from the "Hold above your head" position!

Owen Sparks
June 1, 2008, 10:00 PM
Stalin and Chairman Mao had something like 60 million people murdered. (10 times as many as Hitler) Many of them were simply shot in the back of the head with a pistol. Care to speculate on what caliber?

Cosmoline
June 1, 2008, 10:06 PM
I don't think there's any contest on this. For all the whooplah about the AK-47, the 8x57JS was the primary round for everything from Maxims to Mausers, MG-42's to Stukas. On BOTH fronts through BOTH world wars. Total killed in those wars mounted over 100 million, and a fair chunk were killed by Central/Axis troops using small arms firing the 8x57JS. The 7.62x54R, 30'06, .303, and other assorted cartridges of the same wars also did their share of combat but obviously only on certain fronts, not both fronts.

In contrast, the post-war conflicts involving the AK-47 from Vietnam on down have been much lower intensity and have involved far fewer deaths from the 7.62x39 round. Still a lot, but not close to the Mauser's round.

I would say:

1--8x57JS
2--7.62x54R (from Imperial Russian conflicts to Afghanistan)
3--6.5x50 Arisaka (the Chinese invasion was unspeakable slaughter using this round)
4--7.62x39 (most post-1965 conflicts)
5--.223/5.56 NATO (ditto, and we've dished out better than we've taken with it)
6--.303 British (colonial conflicts and both WW's)
7--.30'06 (key service during part of WWI and part of WWII, but typically on offensive only)
8--.308/7.62 NATO (multiple early cold war conflicts plus third world use)
9--.22 LR (extensive criminal and low-intensity conflict use since mid-19th century. VERY old)
10--9x19 (ubiquitous since WWII with a history back to WWI, used in pistols and SMG's)

1911Tuner
June 1, 2008, 10:18 PM
Do you watch the 3rd worlders shoot?

Yep..and it's not just 3rd Worlders. The smallarms round count to casualty ratio for the US in Vietnam was something over 50,000 rounds.

Given the sheer number of AK and SKS rifles produced and distributed since 1947...and prodigious amount of the ammunition to feed them...the short Russian .30 probably still takes it by laws of averages and probabilities.

Cannonball888
June 1, 2008, 10:19 PM
Total killed in those wars mounted over 100 million, and a fair chunk were killed by Central/Axis troops using small arms firing the 8x57JS
What would you call a fair chunk? 80% of people in both world wars were killed by artillery and by bombing. That would leave only 20 million by your figure to all small arms fire and therefore even less to the Mauser round. Mauser doesn't come close to being number one.

Cosmoline
June 1, 2008, 10:30 PM
80% of people in both world wars were killed by artillery and by bombing.

Where are you getting that information from? The Maxims and Mausers mowed down millions in WWI. The artillery was not terribly effective because they couldn't get the timing right and everyone was dug in. The French or English artillery would unleash hell, and the Germans would scurry down in their holes. Then it would stop and out would come all the pointy headed fellows, deaf but still fighting. That is in fact why offensive after offensive ground to a halt under the fury of the 8x57JS. In WWII artillery and bombing killed mostly civilians. The troops were well protected and by that time the officers had learned how to scatter their troops and keep moving to avoid high artillery losses. Not to say it wasn't important, but any notion that the world wars were won with artillery is absolute nonsense. The top brass HOPED they would be won with artillery, and those hopes were dashed over and over again.

If you read much about the actual experiences of the troops on the ground, they were routinely told that they'd just be "mopping up after artillery." But from Normandy to Iwo Jima all those amazingly impressive barrages did was make the ground impossible to travel over. The enemy was unscathed by it, and ready to fight with rifles and bayonets. Look at this amazing display in the runup to Okinawa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JsZ4jD1yCs

Surely nothing could survive that! But of course almost all of them did, at least the fighting ones. Tell a veteran of that battle that artillery did 80% of the killing.

Or these Katyuska rockets, fired at the start of the final assault on Berlin. Very impressive, but still taking the city cost over a million Red Army Men their lives. Lives taken by an enemy who by that time had almost no working tanks or artillery!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0nIqZgnp60&feature=related

Cannonball888
June 1, 2008, 10:45 PM
Cos, you're totally disregarding civilian deaths.

Husker1911
June 1, 2008, 10:52 PM
My guess is 9mm and I am sticking to it.I think 9mm is way up there. Sadly, most victims were Jews or Polish officers, on their knees............

Moonclip
June 1, 2008, 10:54 PM
Older Cartridges of the World books state that .44-40 has caused many civilian deaths. .22lr usually or did/does cause the most USA gunshot fatalities I've heard most years.

As for military I've heard 9x19 due to it's widespread use but 7.62x39 must be high up there.

I truly think the champ is 8x57mauser though. Think of the trench warfare in WWI. I think in one day in one of the battles the British army lost 8% of it's strength mainly from Maxim machine guns.

Golden Hound
June 1, 2008, 10:55 PM
8mm Mauser. Used by the Germans in two WWs to extremely favorably kill ratios. Also used by Yugoslavia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Britain, Israel, and various others.

I can't be the only one seeing the irony in this.

Husker1911
June 1, 2008, 11:17 PM
I can't be the only one seeing the irony in this.The Israelis scrupulously removed Nazi markings, but certainly realized the value of the German Mausers they received. Funny how the Israelis always seemed to value the quality of the firearms in their hands.

esmith
June 1, 2008, 11:24 PM
Bullets don't kill people. People kill people.

No you're wrong. Pieces of metal that don't do anything and just sit in your holster or in your safe start floating in mid-air and go up to someone and kill them. That's how this world works. Liberals and like-minded said it, it must be true.

thebear101
June 1, 2008, 11:31 PM
45 cal gattling gun and 1911 45 acp

30 cal M1 m1- garand AR_10, alot more 30s


22. 223, My answere is the 30 cal
45/70 gatling gun 45acp

esmith
June 1, 2008, 11:33 PM
80% of people in both world wars were killed by artillery and by bombing.

Im calling BS. The estimated total death toll of WWII alone, including civilians, is around 70-80 million people. So you are telling me that 56-64 million people were killed by bombings and artillery shellings? Nevermind widespread famine, disease, and the millions of infantry of both axis and allies.

Husker1911
June 1, 2008, 11:34 PM
Quote:
80% of people in both world wars were killed by artillery and by bombing.

Im calling BS. The estimated total death toll of WWII alone, including civilians, is around 70-80 million people. So you are telling me that 56-64 million people were killed by bombings and artillery shellings? Nevermind widespread famine, disease, and the millions of infantry of both axis and allies.Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.................

esmith
June 1, 2008, 11:54 PM
Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.................

Death toll estimations:

Nagasaki: 75,000-80,000
Hiroshima: 90,000-200,000
Tokyo city firebombing: Around 130,000
Dresden bombing: Around 30,000

At a maximum you have a little less than half a million, you'd better keep listing some bombings here. Only got about 63.5 million to go.

Cosmoline
June 2, 2008, 12:42 AM
Cos, you're totally disregarding civilian deaths.

Certainly a lot of civilians got killed in raids, but most people survived. It wasn't until the very end of WWII when technology got powerful enough to create firestorms and atomic detonations that the existing bomb raid shelters were rendered useless.

The bottom line is, that __% figure is one I've seen pop up for years. Sometimes it's 60% Sometimes 90%, but in no event can anyone cite the authority for it. I believe it to be completely bogus. It reminds me of the nonsense about how humans "only use 2% of their brains."

IndianaBoy
June 2, 2008, 11:56 AM
Edged weapons. Usually a rock, knapped to sharpness, fixed to the end of a spear or arrow.


People have been killing people for a lot more than 150 years. I doubt even the prolific killing of the 20th century has outstripped hundreds of thousands of years of worldwide tribal warfare.

Ala Dan
June 2, 2008, 12:09 PM
Here in the good ole' U.S. of A. during my days as a LEO, I have seen
more DOS, DOA persons shot with some kind'a .22LR~! ;)

I'm not sure what the most common caliber causing death would be
world wide; but probably you are correct in assuming the 7.62 x 39~? :eek:

BattleChimp Potemkin
June 2, 2008, 12:22 PM
For Street violence, how about .380? Lots and lots of criminal activity associated with this round, as the guns firing it were prolific on the streets.

Defensory
June 4, 2008, 11:05 PM
Posted by SN13:
.22lr is the winner for MURDERS. It's the favorite for hits and assassinations as the small lead bullet deforms and fragments into an un-traceable projectile when fired into the cranium of a target. Revolvers chambered in .22 leave no casing to be analyzed and without a projectile to compare ballistically, it's impossible to link the gun with a crime.

Precisely!

I always have to chuckle when somebody starts a thread or makes a post proclaiming the .22LR to be an "excellent" defensive cartridge, because "The fact that a lot of professional hitmen often use it, proves it's a powerful and deadly man-stopping round!"

When in fact, the real reason they use it is the one you mentioned. Professional hits with .22LR are almost always point blank (PB) or near-point blank (NPB) shots to the head.

However, the ability of a .22LR to kill with head shots at PB or NPB range, does NOT make it a reliable fight-stopper at typical self-defense ranges of 15 to 20 feet.

Nolo
June 5, 2008, 12:27 PM
I'm going with the machine gun rounds, especially 7.62x54R. More people were killed in Eastern Europe than anywhere else.
So my guess is 7.62x54R.
But if you want to count indirect kills, then it's definitely .380 ACP. :D

Cannonball888
June 5, 2008, 12:45 PM
I browsed one of the gun rags last couple of months or so in which there was an article which stated that the 7.62x54R has killed more people than any other. I didn't mention this earlier because I know someone would have challenged me for the source which I simply can't remember since I go through about 7 or 8 rags a month while working.

Phil DeGraves
June 5, 2008, 01:04 PM
7. 45LC

If you were going to include a "western" cartridge, I'd have to say 44-40 instead of .45 Colt since the 44-40 was available in both handgun and rifle. But probably neither of them belong on the top ten list since their operational term of service was fairly short compared to the military rifle rounds that have been mentioned.

Blackfork
June 5, 2008, 01:10 PM
Civilian and crime stats outside of government genocides can be tossed. Every gangbanger in the Bronx may use .380. (for instance) but their death toll isn't going to be 1/10th of 1% over 100 years of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, the Chinese, the Americans in a legitimate war, et, et.

The LEOs may see 9mm deaths every day but they don't compare by orders of magnitude to Maxim machine guns used at the Somme for a week.

leadcounsel
June 5, 2008, 01:20 PM
Based on pure guess alone, I would say that it would be a cartridge that saw action in the world wars and one that is still in use today, either the 8mm Mauser or the 7.62x54R or the 9mm or the ammunition used. Think of the millions of Germans and Russians and neighboring citizens and tens of thousands of Americans that died from these calibers. The numbers are staggering!!!

Or the most widely used Assualt Rifle, the 7.62x39 - used in many wars and conflicts over the last 60 years.

I can't believe the lowly .22LR is responsible for more human deaths. Animals perhaps, but not humans.

308win
June 5, 2008, 01:29 PM
Center fire, I would expect the 7.62X39. In conventional war the majority of casualties are caused by artillery (70% is the number quoted on the military channel for WWI). The 7.62X39 has been ubiquitous in non-conventional and conventional regional and national conflicts since the late 1940's.

Rimfire would have to be the .22.

offthepaper
June 5, 2008, 02:09 PM
My guess (?) would be 54R followed by 8mm, then 39.

I gotta tell you though, I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Lot of good points being made here.

mr.trooper
June 5, 2008, 02:53 PM
22lr is used in a LOT of tribal wars and village feuds across the world because its all most people have.

Take Latin America for example: most of those nations allow civilian ownership of firearms out in the countryside, but the people are so dirt poor that a rusty old .22 bolt gun is all they can afford. Even if they could get a better gun, .22lr is all they can afford to shoot!

Flip through some photos of the Zapatistas during the Mexican revolution. a LOT of those guys used .22 rifles until they could take a mauser off of a dead soldier.

This is common. .22lr gets used a LOT in revolts and uprisings; at least until they can use it to kill someone with a better gun, and take that.

Most of Stalin's kills were not x39... Remember AK-47 was created in 1947
The SKS was in the field by 1943 ;)

Rugerlvr
June 5, 2008, 03:24 PM
7.62x54R is still in use as an MG round in a lot of third world countries. You know, the kind where they still kill each other with regularity.

RedLion
June 5, 2008, 03:44 PM
No .32 ACP? The bullet that lead to all the turmoil caused in the 20th century by killing Arch Duke Ferdinand??

Or whatever caliber dead animals are. The Mongols used to launch dead diseased corpses onto Eastern European cities which caused the Black Plague.

I guess you could also throw in whatever caliber holy books come in as well.

JR870
June 5, 2008, 03:45 PM
22 LR because its not only a rifle cartridge it is also a hangun cartridge that is small saturday night special ummmm.......there are also 22 hollow points that i hear are as powerful as a 9mm FMJ and rifle velocity handgun short etc.....so yes I would definetly agree with other posters 22LR is the deadliest bullet and killed the most.On the War side point it would be the 30-06 or the 7.62 by 39mm MG42 round

Cannonball888
June 5, 2008, 03:50 PM
or the 7.62 by 39mm MG42 round
You mean 7.92 x 57mm a.k.a 8mm Mauser, but I still disagree

Owen Sparks
June 5, 2008, 04:17 PM
Americans only make up about 5% of the worlds population. I doubt any crime statistics involving firearm murders here would skew the overall statistics very much. That being said, 90% of the combat related casualties during the American Civil War were caused by Minne balls. Small arms only accounted for about 20% of deaths in the World wars.

Sebastian the Ibis
June 5, 2008, 08:43 PM
It looks like there are about 30,000 gun deaths/yr in the US according to the CDC. See e.g. http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/PrevGuid/m0023655/m0023655.asp
Since that is from all calibers, would assume that crime/suicide doesn't even remotely compare to war. Even if that were expanded worldwide- since we Americans do have pretty good gun laws comparatively.

I would think that the 7.92x57mm (gwher 98 & MG42) would be right up there since the German's used it in both World Wars to mow down the Russians who took the highest casualties. In addition to other conflicts like the Spanish Civil War, the Spanish American War and wherever else it pops up- Afghanistan, South America etc.

However, I think that the 7.62x39 has been involved in so many conflicts it may have caught up.

What I'd like to see statistics on is what proportion of people in war that actually die from gunfire. I would think that sickness and famine would be responsible for the most casualties, and then artillery and airpower would account for more casualties.

Overall, I think that the Arrowhead (if you count that as a caliber) has killed the most people. It was the primary ranged weapon for thousands of years, and took part in some of the largest wars in History: the Crusades, the Mongol hordes, the battle of Aginocort, the list goes on.

Nolo
June 5, 2008, 08:54 PM
Yes, we should ban those deadly guard-killing assault compound sniper longbows!
Gun control: then and now. An eternal fight.

PeteRR
June 6, 2008, 01:43 AM
8MM Mauser was used to great effect in all of those maxim machine guns mowing down the French, Brits, and Russians in just WWI. Not to mention all of WWII in 3 different theaters.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 01:47 AM
No .32 ACP?
It wasn't .32, it was .380 ACP. And I mentioned it.

mr.trooper
June 6, 2008, 02:07 AM
I guess you could also throw in whatever caliber holy books come in as well.

So its OK to blame religion for religious violence...but its wrong to blame guns for gun violence?

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

R.W.Dale
June 6, 2008, 02:15 AM
I think the .75 caliber Brown Bess should replace one of the selectons on the list..

I agree, The brits used this firearm in a rather unscrupulous and indiscriminate fashion to carve themselves out an empire over the course of quite a span of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ

This guy is pretty handy with his

RedLion
June 6, 2008, 03:29 AM
It wasn't .32, it was .380 ACP. And I mentioned it.

I was pretty sure it was .32, but I could be wrong.

So its OK to blame religion for religious violence...but its wrong to blame guns for gun violence?

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Why? Tools are different than ideas....although I guess both can be misconstrued and misused to a point where they no longer serve their original purpose, but only the opposite.

nwilliams
June 6, 2008, 05:12 AM
What caliber has killed the most people?
NONE! Bullets don't kill people, people kill people!:rolleyes:

Which caliber is most widely used to cause death or injury, probably 7.62x39

If you think about it the caliber has been around for many decades and seen use all over the world. It has been and still probably is the most widely used caliber in civil wars throughout Africa and other 3rd world conflicts around the globe. If you consider that the AK is the most widely used gun in the world and has been for so long then its not unlikely that the 7.62x39 has also caused the most bloodshed.

MaterDei
June 6, 2008, 05:44 AM
None of your bullets are big enough.

http://www.militarypictures.info/d/271-3/M198_155mm.jpg

King of Battle!

plexreticle
June 6, 2008, 06:58 AM
7.62x54R and 8mm

Maxim machines guns and Russian and German rifles are my guess

leadcounsel
June 6, 2008, 07:12 AM
So its OK to blame religion for religious violence...but its wrong to blame guns for gun violence?

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Actually it's not hypocritical. Guns are not an ideology, they are a tool. Guns don't cause people to kill and killing has gone on long before guns were invented.

Religion is an ideology and ideologies cause massive bloodshed on a global scale. Guns are simply the tool used by ideologies to inflict death and impose viewpoints. Before guns it was fire, knives, spears, arrows, swords, rocks, etc.

And conversely, guns have been used to fight off these religious zealots and their viewpoints in defense of nations and religious persecution. In this manner, guns have effectively been used to fight off oppression. Religion has never really been used to fight off oppression successfully.

Religion is undoubtedly the primary cause for the wholesale slaughter of billions of people in the history of the world from the Crusades to present day. People with conflicting views on GOD attack each other - kinda ironic if you think about it.

macp
June 6, 2008, 08:08 AM
I'm none too sure about the order:

1. 8 x 57 Germans' main round in both wars; high kill ratio. Used by Chinese against Japanese before and during WWII and in Chinese Civil War, and again by Chi Coms in Korea.

2. 7.62 x 54 Russians' main round in both wars; notable use in WWII. Used by North Koreans and Chinese in Korean War. Used by Vietcong and NVA.

3. 30-06 USA's main round for part of WWI, in WWII and Korea, and saw some use in Vietnam. Also used by South Koreans in Korean War. Some usage by Chinese against Japanese before and during WWII.

4. .303 British and Commonwealth forces' main round in both world wars and Korea.

5. 6.5 Arisaka Japanese; used extensively before and during WWII. Presumably used in Chinese Civil War; used by Chinese in Korea.

6. 7.62 x 39 The AK-47. Pol Pot and Vietnam put it up there, as well as other third-world usage.

7. 7.62 x .25 Ppsh-41 and Ppsh-43 chambered this round; used extensively by Russians in WWII and by North Korea and China in Korea. Was also chambered in pistols used by Russians and Chinese.

8. 9mm The ubiquitous Nine. Also, don't forget the usage inside USA.

I'm going to stop there.

eflatminor
June 6, 2008, 12:18 PM
Calibers don't kill people, people kill people.

cracked butt
June 6, 2008, 12:49 PM
8mm mauser followed by 7.62x54r and .303 tied for a distant second.

scrat
June 6, 2008, 01:15 PM
hands down if im saying what caliber bullet. thus the bullet tip. it would be.
.308
as how many rifles use a .308 bullet. 30-06 being number 1, but then so does 30-30. 30 carbine. Remember the browning 30 caliber machine gun. Thus my vote is .308 the bullet. though there are several variations and grain sizes flat nose round nose boat tail. the .308 has probably killed more than any other caliber.

mbt2001
June 6, 2008, 01:36 PM
44-40... No question

I wonder why it wasn't listed... A good case could be made for the .50 cal as it was used in many past and current conflicts.

EDIT:

Religion is undoubtedly the primary cause for the wholesale slaughter of billions of people in the history of the world from the Crusades to present day. People with conflicting views on GOD attack each other - kinda ironic if you think about it.

Anyone here ever seen a Bible and a Koran or Torah get in a fight?? Ever seen a gun walk down the street looking for a victim?? No, no one ever has.

What you do see is people using every trick, every device, every possible chink to gain power and hold it. I very much resent thoughts such as the one quoted above, as the only thing they highlight is more of the same.

nwilliams
June 6, 2008, 03:14 PM
Religion is undoubtedly the primary cause for the wholesale slaughter of billions of people in the history of the world from the Crusades to present day. People with conflicting views on GOD attack each other - kinda ironic if you think about it.

Sadly I agree....

But lets not turn this very thread into a religious war among ourselves, lets keep it gun related why don't we.

pbearperry
June 6, 2008, 03:27 PM
The reason I stated the 9mm as possibly killing more people is based on the fact that it was used in most German sidearms in both World Wars,plus the fact in WW2,there were an awful lot of sub-machine guns issued in 9mm as well.Also keep in mind that all of Europe armies use it along with modern day Gangbangers plus most Police Agencies throughout the world.

Rugerlvr
June 6, 2008, 03:51 PM
modern day Gangbangers plus most Police Agencies

Absolute peanuts compared to the casualties of war.

I recall hearing somewhere that there are more people alive today than have ever lived and died in the history of the world. I don't know if this is strictly true, but as a corollary, you may conclude that World War I & II saw more war casualties and deaths by firearms than all the wars of humanity combined to that point.

That said, I have to agree then, that the 8mm Mauser and 7.62x54r would be the #1, and #2 for firearms deaths in wartime, which is far beyond anything else in terms of sheer numbers.

SlamFire1
June 6, 2008, 03:54 PM
The 8 mm killed more British, French, Russians, Poles, Danes, Dutch, Greeks, Yugo's, Czech's, Romanians, Bulgarians, Spanish, Italians, Americans, than any other round. It was adopted by a bunch of middle European nations, Egypt, Iran, Iraqi, probably more than I can think of.

What comes next, that's tough. It is either the 303 or the 7.62 * 54.

CWL
June 6, 2008, 04:05 PM
Machine guns have killed more people than rifles. They killed millions in WWI & WWII.

Rifle & pistols didn't come close the "the Devil's Paintbrush".

Since WWI, artillery does most of the 'killing' on the battlefield.

Rugerlvr
June 6, 2008, 04:09 PM
Machine guns have killed more people than rifles. They killed millions in WWI & WWII.

Thus the 7.92x57mm and 7.62x54r...

buck00
June 6, 2008, 04:27 PM
1. 8 x 57 Germans' main round in both wars; high kill ratio. Used by Chinese against Japanese before and during WWII and in Chinese Civil War, and again by Chi Coms in Korea.

I would agree. It was the German 7.92x57mm Mauser which was used both in the machine guns (MG-42) and K98 carbines.

Think of the einsatzgruppen alone in Russia, it was very common to use machine guns to mow down victims near pits. They shot over 1,000,000 between summer 1941 and Nov 1942 (non-comabt). And many of the human wave assaults by the Soviets were decimated by MG-42s. Soviet military and civilian deaths were 20 million plus, obviously not all shot... but a lot were.

7.62 x 39 killed a lot, but overall, but as much as 7.92 x 57. Hopefully, the world will again never see the intensity or level of combat of the dark years of the Eastern Front. :(

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=79527&stc=1&d=1212780147

On a side note, some of you guys are getting up on the soap box in huff about if guns or people kill. This is merely a historical question, not a "we need to ban this caliber because of how many people it killed" argument.

Rugerlvr
June 6, 2008, 04:36 PM
The 7.92x57mm was used in every German MG from WWI through WWII.

Since we're talking MG's. Don't forget the French 8mm Lebel, which was used extensively on the western front in WWI.

mbt2001
June 6, 2008, 05:08 PM
Sadly I agree....

But lets not turn this very thread into a religious war among ourselves, lets keep it gun related why don't we.

That is like me saying, your a fat putz, but let's not get into a name calling fight...

EDIT,

I took out the response, but leave you with this.

How can a gun owner on this forum say:

Religion is undoubtedly the primary cause for the wholesale slaughter of billions of people in the history of the world from the Crusades to present day. People with conflicting views on GOD attack each other - kinda ironic if you think about it.

When all of us know that it isn't the guns that kill people, somewhere down the line they made the choice to kill. No matter how little input they had, they chose to depress the trigger, stab or whathaveya. Ideas are no different.

brighamr
June 6, 2008, 05:09 PM
What car make/model has killed the most people?

PercyShelley
June 6, 2008, 05:14 PM
7.62 x 39 killed a lot, but overall, but as much as 7.92 x 57. Hopefully, the world will again never see the intensity or level of combat of the dark years of the Eastern Front.


Indeed. The Eastern Front was so huge that it's just surreal.

ziggy222
June 6, 2008, 09:20 PM
in the u.s. the 32 and 380 are big killers cause more people carry them do to their concealability.but 357 is a big one as well.world wide its likely the ak

divemedic
June 6, 2008, 10:24 PM
75 million people were killed in the two World Wars. How can anyone say that any weapon made after that can even come close to those numbers?

The .223 is not even a contender. Not even close. Same goes for .22, 9mm, or any other handgun round. I think the Mauser is the one.

Funderb
June 6, 2008, 10:31 PM
Guess they really like the 7.62mm bullet...


yep, 76.2mm was the russian tank round.

pbearperry
June 6, 2008, 10:52 PM
This thread has had a lot of guess work as too which calibur has killed the most people.An interesting note is that supposedly more soldiers on both sides during WW1 were killed by the Flu than by bullets.

longdayjake
June 6, 2008, 11:39 PM
7.62X39 wins it. Every militia, guerrilla group, para-military, pseudo military, mostly military, and even actual militaries use the AK to kill millions. Though the world wars ended with the loss of millions and millions of lives, this conflict was only about 6 years long. The AK has been the choice of murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and communism and the like for over 60 years. Sadly I believe that most deaths with this round are not recorded so there would be no real way to find out. So, my guess is just a guess, but I feel that it is a pretty good guess. 60 years of continual murders and conflicts pile the bodies pretty high.

mr.trooper
June 7, 2008, 02:23 AM
75 million people were killed in the two World Wars. How can anyone say that any weapon made after that can even come close to those numbers?

Most WWI casualties were from rampant disease and massive waves of chemical weapons bombardment. the Maxim would have to take the back seat to that, but every side had them so i don't see that being a boon to any sides caliber.

Most WWII casualties were from artillery, and massive carpet bombing campaigns.

ID say the top 5 are:
* 303 British
* 7.62x54R
* 7.62x39
* 9mm Luger
* .22 Long Rifle

Trying to order them would be a moot point, and pure conjecture.

PeteRR
June 7, 2008, 03:40 AM
Most WWI casualties were from rampant disease and massive waves of chemical weapons bombardment. the Maxim would have to take the back seat to that, but every side had them so i don't see that being a boon to any sides caliber.
Gas as a general rule was not lethal during WWI. It caused a lot of casualties, but not so many deaths. And the reason 8MM Mauser gets the edge during the war is because after the initial advances, Germany was on the defensive in the West and inflicted many more deaths then they took using the Maxim in 8MM.

massive carpet bombing campaigns.
As a military "tactic", carpet bombing was employed sparingly. I can think of only a handful of instances.


* 9mm Luger
* .22 Long Rifle
There's no way in the world 9MM and .22LR have killed more than 8MM Mauser.

leadcounsel
June 7, 2008, 05:14 AM
How can a gun owner on this forum say:


Quote:
Religion is undoubtedly the primary cause for the wholesale slaughter of billions of people in the history of the world from the Crusades to present day. People with conflicting views on GOD attack each other - kinda ironic if you think about it.

When all of us know that it isn't the guns that kill people, somewhere down the line they made the choice to kill. No matter how little input they had, they chose to depress the trigger, stab or whathaveya. Ideas are no different.


Easily: Guns are tools used to carry out a desired action, typically murder/death. The gun doesn't CAUSE the action of murder, it just happens to replace a different tool, be it a sword, axe, club, etc. Guns don't shape underlying moral behavior - sure they shape the battlefield, but not the underlying behavior.

Religion is a belief system which shapes moral behavior and YES, is the root cause for wholesale slaughter of billions of people. Religious zealots have violently imposed their beliefs upon others since the dawn of religion through present day. I'm here in Iraq, in part, because some religious screwjobs threaten world security.

One other point that is important to make for the PROGUN crowd: Despite all of the deaths from people using guns (whether for good or evil intent), the mosquito is responsible for more human deaths than all guns combined.

TAB
June 7, 2008, 05:32 AM
The most dangerous person is a religious zealot. Always has been, always will be.

mbt2001
June 7, 2008, 01:56 PM
:scrutiny:


The most dangerous person is a religious zealot. Always has been, always will be.

No, the most dangerous person is someone that has nothing left to lose.




Edit: I removed my previous post

Hostile Amish
June 7, 2008, 04:13 PM
The 7.7mm Japanese round and the .50 BMG round should be somewhere on that list. I'm not so sure of .22 LR.

tcrocker
June 7, 2008, 06:39 PM
You forgot the most dangours of them all the dreded car Ted Kennedy is driving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:what:

pete f
June 7, 2008, 06:58 PM
303, while being used by the brits in the colonial(not ours but india, palestine, and other places, certainly had its run, the winner is most likely split between the 7.62x54R and 7.92 x 57 mauser rounds.

The AK came too late, and although involved in some bloody stuff, (the balkans, the horn of africa) its really be small scale since the end of WW2 Even in Korea, the conflict was intense, but the numbers were in relative terms small compared to the Campaigns of WW2.

The two jap rounds, the 6.5 and 7.7 were used with effect and without remorse an awful lot,but the numbers do not seem to add up to the two top rounds.

The 30-06 was a killer, but it just did not have the socail killings added to it that made the others the top seeds.



Although the 9mm is cited by some, the real killers of the war in the hand gun were the .32 and 380. This was the round of execution as seen in the forests of Poland, the mountains of the Balkans and the steppes. One german killing field was found to have nearly a quarter million all shot once in the head with a small caliber round. Soviet Gulags have similar numbers. When you are fighting in the soviet winter, there is no time for feeding prisioners or civilians when you can not feed your own men. I believe it was during the siege of Leningrad, the 900 day siege that the germans killed two whole divisions of surrendered Red troops. because they had no other plans or ability to deal with them. Word of this is what kept Leningrad and Stalingrad from falling.

Kentak
June 7, 2008, 07:21 PM
So its OK to blame religion for religious violence...but its wrong to blame guns for gun violence?

Not comparable at all. Guns (weapons) are merely the instruments of warfare. What is it that causes people to go to war? Many, many things of course. The need for territory, power, resources, etc. Or, the desire to spread ideology, such as Communism, or Bush's desire to impose democracy on other cultures. Or, the desire to spread or defend religious beliefs and influence. It's no coincidence that much of the warfare in the past and in the present pit one religious group against another.

K

jamesslonders
June 10, 2008, 01:27 AM
.577 Minne Ball Civil war Musket. Killed more than all american wars combined.

longdayjake
June 10, 2008, 01:44 AM
7.62X39

I think this one is getting looked over simply because it was not in wwII. Every nation other than the NATO nations use AK's and almost every nation that uses them has used them to slaughter millions. Lets see, Venezuela, Peru, Colombia, Equador, bolivia, Paraguay, etc. these are simply south american countries that are not known for big wars, but the death tolls from the 7.62 x 39 are in the millions. Now imagine all of the wars in the east that it has been used in and also the amount of murders have been committed in foreign countries with it. There are more AK's than any other rifle on earth. How could it not be the big killer?

justin 561
June 10, 2008, 03:50 AM
Hands down I'd say the 7.62x39, It's the popular choice for genocide in countless countries and wars.

macp
June 10, 2008, 05:21 AM
The AK came too late, and although involved in some bloody stuff, (the balkans, the horn of africa) its really be small scale since the end of WW2 Even in Korea, the conflict was intense, but the numbers were in relative terms small compared to the Campaigns of WW2.

Right although the AK wasn't used in Korea that I know of.

However as far as the overall numbers go, the Chinese and North Korean forces' KIA alone are estimated at over 600K, not including both North and South MIAs which are over 100K. The Korean War was one of the most destructive wars in history.

Also, here's a sobering tabulation of different conflicts' death tolls: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

gtmerkley
June 11, 2008, 01:28 AM
.38 S&W killed the most police

RaferJanders
June 11, 2008, 02:08 AM
Boys, I think I am going to go with the Maxim gun, MG.08 7.92 would be my guess, Though You could make a case for the 303, Still rackin up to this day

RaferJanders
June 11, 2008, 02:11 AM
Nice reply KenTac, They are just tools in a tool box, Words, written words are way more deadly

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