[Sergeant Bob]

Truce ends after killing of Hamas leader (http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059479223272)
By Harvey Morris and Sharmila Devi in Jerusalem
Published: August 21 2003 18:40 | Last Updated: August 21 2003 18:40


Hamas called off an eight-week-old ceasefire on Thursday after Israeli forces assassinated a senior leader of the Islamic militant group, plunging the fragile US-backed peace process into the worst crisis since it was launched in June.

The smaller Islamic Jihad also announced it was abandoning the three-month truce declared on June 29.

The Israeli strike, the first assassination operation since the start of the ceasefire, came hours after Israel's security cabinet approved military action in response to Tuesday's bus bombing in Jerusalem in which a Hamas suicide bomber killed 20 people.


The Israeli strike, the first assassination operation since the start of the ceasefire,

So, just what the :cuss: do they call sending a homicide bomber to blow up a bus full of innocent men, women and children!!!!

Roadmap to peace my :cuss: . Roadmap to :cuss:

[Standing Wolf]

Islamic terrorist savages need to be put down like rabid dogs whenever and wherever they show up. So-called "negotiating" with them is like so-called "reasoning" with armed robbers: self-defeating.

[Waitone]

Hamas called off an eight-week-old ceasefire on Thursday after Israeli forces assassinated a senior leader of the Islamic militant group, plunging the fragile US-backed peace process into the worst crisis since it was launched in June. Truly amazing sentence. Hamas butchers 20+ people including children and pregnant women, Isreal responds by popping the head perp, and Israel suddenly ends the cease fire.

Some times I think the press is a herd, sometimes a flock, sometimes a gaggle, and sometimes a pack. In this case the operative characteristics are impared individual thinking and no structure----gaggle is the word.

For those "journalists" who can't comprehend Israel's response, take the losses of an attack in Israel and multiply it by 40 to get a feel for proportionate impact should the event have occurred in the US. So the latest outrage in Israel of 20 deaths is the equal of 800 in the US. I believe any politician in the US urging restraint would have been tarred and feathered just before he was skinned.

[seeker_two]

If it wasn't for Israel's recent (last 60+ years) cultural history, there wouldn't be a Palestinian problem. Any other nation would have had a "Final Solution" for THAT particular problem...

I just wonder how long it will be before Palestinians are rounded up & expelled from the borders?...

Not soon enough, I bet... :uhoh:

[matis]

Frankly, I'll be shocked if this latest outrage changes anything at all. Ariel Sharon was a true military hero.

As a politician he's pretty close to worthless. He let's Bush lead him around by the nose.

Bush has a double standard -- for the US destroy the terrorists and punish those who harbor them.

For Israel -- negotiate with barbaric killer dogs and then reward them with a terrorist state right next door.


Jewish blood is cheap on the world market.


Israel must crush the terrorists, send the arabs to their "brother" arab countries and keep her head high while doing so.


But only the "right-wing extremist" religious Israelis know what to do and they are in the minority.


So I don't expect any change at all.




matis

[Erik]

5 Americans died in the latest bombing, including an infant.

:fire:

My proposed roadmap to peace:

Reel in your terrorists once in for all, because if another "incident" occurs, we will give the Israelis full military and economic support to achieve whatever military ends they choose to undertake.

Kant spel so I edit'd.

[Don Gwinn]

A small quibble on the issue of timing:

I think it's just possible that Hamas had already called off the cease-fire before Israel killed that terrorist. I say this only because otherwise, it's difficult to explain why they blew up a freaking bus full of innocent civilians.
:banghead:

[SodaPop]

I use to understand why the Israeli's didn't kill Arafat, but I don't understand it anymore.

Kill all the terrorists NOW!!

[Dilettante]

So-called "negotiating" with them is like so-called "reasoning" with armed robbers: self-defeating.

Only if you limit negotiation to talk.

A more...inclusive concept of negotiation includes all of the things you have to do in order to get concessions.

So every time the Israelis kill a damn terrorist, they are actually negotiating!
Their commando teams are in fact extraordinary ambassadors. When they went into the "west bank" last year to capture killers and threaten the PA, they were resolving procedural issues indispensible for their diplomatic efforts.

Man, do I admire those Israeli negotiators.

[Khornet]

and not understand why so many of us think the media are biased? It was said on an earlier thread that, paraphrased, "one can always find bias when one presupposes it"....WHERE DO PEOPLE THINK THE PRESUPPOSITION COMES FROM, IF NOT EXPERIENCE?

One can always find bias, if the media are blatantly biased.

[agricola]

some points:

i) this is a circular process - in response to an attack, the other side strikes back harder, in response to which the first side has to respond. If the IDF has learnt nothing else from this intifada, it must have realised by now that these so-called "decapitation" strikes solve nothing - they invariably make the targetted leader a martyr for his cause, and they promote the next man in line who is invariably a more hard-line figure, as well as someone eager not to repeat the mistakes (with regard to security) of his predecessor. The end result is that HAMAS, the AAMB and Islamic Jihad actually become better organizations as a result of these strikes - ordinary Palestinians contrast their "action" and willingness "to die for the cause" with the PA's repeated humiliations at the hands of Sharon and the IDF, and the groups members have new reasons to attack Israeli targets (revenge) and improve the groups internal security as a result. The proof of all this is shown by how many "major leaders" of these groups have been killed by the IDF - there is always someone ready to step up to the plate.

Interestingly, Ismail Abu Shanab was one of the few HAMAS leaders who stated publicly that any Palestinian state would co-exist with Israel, rather than the official HAMAS line that there would be no Israel in the event of a Palestinian state. He was also one of the most pro-ceasefire HAMAS leaders. His removal kills that potential line of compromise and will, as mentioned above, lead to further attacks.

ii) the "roadmap for peace" was probably doomed from the start (if indeed it was a genuine plan and not just a distraction for the West from the Iraq / Afgani campaigns).

For a start, Arafat is the only person who the majority of the Palestinian population would follow in a permanent peace - he is by no means popular in some quarters and the PA was (and is) corrupt thanks to him and his goons, but he is the one statesmanlike figure that the Palestinians possess (in terms of being able to stop the attacks to any extent). Abbas was probably never recognized as such by even a significant minority of the Palestinians and almost certainly wouldnt have had the mandate or necessary support to enforce any peace plan (as is being shown - he has no rapport with the likes of HAMAS and IJ (Arafat because of his past and his links with the AAMB can at least demonstrate his committment to the cause)).

Second the current Israeli leadership has demonstrated time and time again that its not interested in a lasting peace, because without an "external" threat Sharon would lose power in an instant because of his internal political record, economic failures and such like.

iii) there will never be peace without a truly independent Palestinian state that incorporates Jerusalem. The alternatives - maintenance of the status quo (the faults of which are evident for all to see) and the "ethnic cleansing" of the camps (which would probably kick off the entire Islamic world and make 9/11 into a weekly event) - are too horrible to contemplate, for all sides including the West.

The majority of the occupants of the camps, and the majority of suicide bombers, and the majority of the victims of the IDF, are normal Palestinians who have nothing, and whose families have had nothing for the past fifty years. People who have nothing have nothing to lose when they want to fight; give them something and the reasons why they shouldnt fight start to mount up. No doubt people will point to the two British suicide bombers and the 9/11 hijackers and note that they were rich, middle class people, but they are the exception to the rule (and probably operate along similar mental lines as the well-to-do people who join the armed forces in the West). This state would be supported by the other nations of the Middle East and the EU, all of whom are contributing to the PA at present.

The establishment of the state and removal of the settlements also means that the frontier can then be properly established and enforced by the IDF in a way that isnt possible at the moment. The vast cost of the settlements (microbalrog may be able to correct me but arent the settlements heavily subsidized by the state?) and the policing / defence thereof would thus be saved to the Israeli taxpayer, to say nothing of the internal costs of security, both financial and in terms of human rights. One would have thought the Lebanon incursion (also a smart idea of Sharon's) would have shown the IDF the pointlessness of holding onto largely worthless territory; the same applies to the occupied territories.

The state would also present no threat to Israel's existance. The IDF is lightyears ahead of any Arab army (including a coalition of all Arab forces) and the US has never been closer to it, both politically and militarily.

[revlar]

"there will never be peace without a truly independent Palestinian state that incorporates Jerusalem"

Then there will never be peace.

The Muslims would never surrender Mecca.
Neither the Jews nor the Christians will surrender Jerusalem.
They have their holy sites and we have ours.

We did not declare a "jihad" - they did.
Clearly there is far more at stake here than simply the security of Israel.

[cordex]

Not a bad analysis, agricola, but it ignores the instigators of this latest round of violence. This would be akin to having an IRA bomb take out a bus in London, followed by a British attack on the leadership of the Real IRA or the True, No Joke This Time IRA or whatever the big, militant group is today and having the whole series of events reported as follows:
"The British government today called off the cease fire when they slaughtered the leaders of an Irish freedom fighter movement who had patiently tried to discuss their needs."

You contend that the proper way of dealing with terrorists (and the Palestinian militants are just as, or - more likely - far more "terrorist" than your little IRA troublemakers) is to grant them what they want in full measure?

Interesting.

[scbair]

Similarly, if the RAF hadn't persisted in attacking those poor Nazi bombers over London, the bombing would undoubtedly have stopped. Obviously, Hitler only attacked because the British fired at the bombers. No, wait, the British fighters fired in the general direction of Germany, necessitating a defensive Nazi retaliation. No, that's not it . . .

Oh, heck, Someone smarter than I can surely figure out why WWII was really Britain's fault (or Poland's, or . . .), rather than the Nazis'. After all, as part of the winning side, the British helped write the history books.

Based on Agricola's interpretation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I'm sure he holds Churchill and his compatriots in similar contempt.:scrutiny:

[RON in PA]

Agricola=Neville Chamberlin

[agricola]

revlar,

yet that ignores the point that, until very recently, Jerusalem was in "muslim hands" (and had been since the Crusades) and it was not the bone of contention that it now is. From a Christian perspective, a site of equal (if not greater) importance (Bethlehem) is "in muslim hands" without any controversy (save for the occasional gun battle between the IDF and Palestinians). IMHO Tom Clancy had the best idea when he suggested that Jerusalem should be a totally free city belonging only to God and to no nation.

cordex,

there is a parallel like that which you hypothesise - the Gibraltar killings, which do appear to have been an assassination by HMG of paramilitaries.

In fact you raise an important point, which is that since the Good Friday agreement and PIRA's last ceasefire the situation in NI, although tense, at least doesnt feature civilians being blown up on a weekly/daily basis. This is because both sides have given up issues important to them and have been seen by their respective communities to have achieved real aims - on the one hand disarmament of PIRA (though not to the extent that some Unionists would wish for), and on the other, peace. The extremists that didnt play along have for the most part been sidelined by their own communities (RIRA especially) or have fallen victim to internecine feuds (Johnny Adair and his "C" company for example). There is a long way to go, and no doubt more blood will be spilt, but this is easily the longest peace since the start of the Troubles and it could well be permanent. Anyone who recalls what it was like during the 1980's will quickly see how far both sides have come since those horrible days.

Besides, a two-state solution is not what most HAMASites want - most want the destruction of Israel and creation of a Palestinian state. If you take out the people willing to compromise, then youre going to leave only those people who arent willing to do so, as has and will be shown during the coming months. Ismail Abu Shanab could have been dealt with, either by the Israeli's or (more likely) Abbas providing there was some real offers made but all he is now is a poster child for all those who demand war.

[Leatherneck]

Agricola, I think you err in this:
"and they promote the next man in line who is invariably a more hard-line figure, as well as someone eager not to repeat the mistakes (with regard to security) of his predecessor. The end result is that HAMAS, the AAMB and Islamic Jihad actually become better organizations as a result of these strikes"

If, in my forest, there lives a pack of feral dogs that threatens my livestock and then my family, then I would decide to take the most effective action to eliminate the threat. Say I'm a compassionate man (Aw, c'mon--say it); I lay a trap for the pack leader and succeed in killing him and only him. The pack runs off and after a while, the number-two dog (Beta dog?) emerges as the pack leader. Now he was number two for a reason: probably several reasons in dog-think. So by virtue of my eliminating Number One Dog, a less-capable dog takes over the pack. Whence the escalation of pack skills and cunning?

TC
TFL Survivor

Dogs, to my knowledge, are not much into the martyr thing...

[Oleg Volk]

Good discussions...and please keep it civil. Disagreement with Agricola or anyone else is no cause to call them names or make unflattering comparisons.

[agricola]

scbair,

so whats your solution then? It should be abundantly clear to everyone that a population, the vast majority of whom live (and have lived for fifty years) in refugee camps, and who possess less (in monetary terms) than most Western five year olds, compare not a jot with Nazi Germany.

leatherneck,

Not so. For a start, Ismail Abu Shanab worked at a university, travelled with only two bodyguards and his itinerary was fairly easily to work out; he was also (in HAMAS terms) fairly moderate. His successor will have proved himself in the planning and execution of attacks (as Shanab would have) - so will at least be a competent terrorist. He will also have the image of Shanab's burned legs hanging from a stretcher, and the motivation not to repeat the same fate and will act accordingly with regards to his security. There will be no public lectures, no travelling about publicly, no meetings with the media: fewer chances for the next Apache pilot to take. HAMAS will probably consider its own ranks, and those in them who may be IDF agents, and act accordingly. These people are not fools, and they are not dogs.

His successor will also enjoy the support of those tens of thousands who took to the streets to protest Shanab's death, of whom probably a hundred will be potential suicide bombers.

Its the darwinization of terrorists, basically.

[Coronach]

The problem with the Israeli-Palestinian issue is twofold:

1. The people doing the bombing are not necessarily the same people doing the negotiating. Yes, yes...I know Arafat is a terrorist. However, if he were to (stay with me now!) actually call for a real, true, honest-to-goodness ceasefire and end to hostilities, we all know that his underlings would either 1. kill him, 2. oust him, 3. just do their own thing anyway. I'm quite sure that #3 has happened a number of times already. The same goes for whomever leads the PA, be he an extremist or a moderate. So, Israel is negotiating with the wrong people. Now, if, hypothetically, they were to somehow be able to magically start simultaneous negotiations with each and every terrorist leader...

2. ...the negotiations would still fail, as in order for a negotiation to succeed there must be an overlap in the minimal position of each side. Israel's minimal position is that it must exist. The terrorist's stated minimal position is that all of the jews must be pushed into the sea and 'palestine' must belong to the palestinians. There is no overlap.

They are doomed to bloodshed until one side or the other wins.

Mike

[agricola]

Coronach,

But thats the thing - the various groups did observe the ceasefire of June 27 until it became obvious that the Israelis were continuing their campaign against the groups (which is understandable, but its not ceasing-fire).

There were IDF killings of militants on July 3, August 2nd, August 8th, and August 14th; and a breach of the no-settlement agreement on July 31st. In response there were two linked suicide bombings on August 12th (4 dead including two bombers) and the bombing on August 19th (20 dead).

Ismail Abu Shanab's stated opinions should show you that the all-terrorists-are-one-statists position is flawed; Israel must (if it wants peace) promote the two-state moderates with real, concrete achievements.

[matis]

I had said:
Bush has a double standard -- for the US -- destroy the terrorists and punish those who harbor them.

For Israel -- negotiate with barbaric killer dogs and then reward them with a terrorist state right next door.
___________________________________________________




So Leatherneck said:
Dogs, to my knowledge, are not much into the martyr thing...
__________________________________________________



You're absolutely correct, Leatherneck. I allowed my rage and grief to overcome me.


I have control of myself now.


I sincerely apologize to my Alaskan Malamute and to all dogs everywhere.



(And your analysis was an accurate rebuttal to Agricola's arguement).





matis

[DRC]

All the things being said thus far do ring true in a "negotiating" format but here's the real problem. Palestinians want Isrealis dead! Palestein does not want an independant state they want Isreal gone, annihilated, gone from the face of the Earth, period! No matter what is demanded by the Palestinians or what is offered by Isreal the only thing that will satisfy Palestein is if all Isrealis commit suicide in unison and immediately.

If this were done would there be peace in the Middle East? (Please forgive my vernacular here) HELL NO! You have a state of terrorists and military, if you have peace they have nothing to do and sitting idley by is not their forte`. There will never be peace in the Middle East in our lifetime or the next. How does one stop a lifestyle that has been taught since before recorded history? You can't. The best you can do is take out the ones that get too big for their britches and that's all.

Take care,

DRC

[revlar]

"ignores the point"? Not hardly.

The key word being, "was" in Muslim hands.
And as I stated, WE did not declare a "jihad".

As for Bethlehem being in Muslim hands - well, their desecration of the Church of the Nativity makes my point better than I ever could.

However, Clancy's point is well taken, and I agree with him - that indeed would be "best". He was not the first to suggest it, and one day that dream may indeed be a reality. But, in this age it remains - a pipe dream.

[Keith]

It should be abundantly clear to everyone that a population, the vast majority of whom live (and have lived for fifty years) in refugee camps, and who possess less (in monetary terms) than most Western five year olds, compare not a jot with Nazi Germany.

Who keeps them in the camps? Since Oslo, the PA has land and self government. The world has poured billions and billions of dollars into their leaders hands. Where is the money? Where are the roads, electricity grids and water projects that money was supposed to build?

The Palestinians do not live in misery because of Israel, but because their misery is the currency used by Arafat and his thugs to garner world sympathy. If the PA allowed their subjects to begin farming and manufacturing, they'd lose much of their support - so it continues.


Keith

[agricola]

Keith,

The PA is monumentally corrupt, however it has only been in existance for a short time (in terms of the war), and even Arafat cannot be blamed for it all because for most of recent history both he and the PLO have been in exile.

Palestinians have been making do with their agricultural land since the occupation, but this land has either been taken for settlements, IDF camps or (most recently) the setting up of the Wall, which is a major reason for the continuing opposition, as the Torygraph story below shows:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/11/28/woliv28.xml

Palestinian olive trees sold to rich Israelis
By Alan Philps in Jerusalem
(Filed: 28/11/2002)


Israel's Defence Ministry is investigating reports that Palestinian olive trees uprooted to make way for a security fence are being sold illegally to rich Israelis and town councils, sometimes for thousands of pounds each.

The illegal trade in olive trees has flourished as Israeli contractors, supported by armed guards, clear Palestinian agricultural land where an 80-mile electronic fence is being built to seal off the West Bank.

Thousands of olive trees have been dug up to make way for the 150-ft wide barrier and security zone. Its route usually passes inside Palestinian territory, not along the old pre-1967 border, and thousands of Palestinian farmers say their livelihood is being taken away.

Sale of the olive trees emerged after the owner of a contracting company offered two reporters from a popular Israeli newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, 100 large olive trees for £150 each.

The reporters found one enormous tree, said to be 600 years old, on sale at an Israeli plant nursery for £3,500. They said the trade was conducted with the complicity of an official in the civil administration, the Israeli military government in the occupied territories.

Olive trees are extremely hardy, can live for hundreds of years and will often stand transplanting. Gnarled old specimens which are claimed, with some exaggeration, to have been alive at the time of Jesus are much sought after for gardens of the rich or city parks.

The Defence Ministry, which is in charge of the security fence, said it had launched an investigation. "The ministry pays contractors for uprooting and replanting and, in their contract, there is no clause that allows for trade in the trees. If there is such a trade, it is a criminal activity," it said.

Some contracts require the olive trees to be relocated to areas suggested by their owners outside the Israeli-declared security zone. But Yael Stein, researcher for B'tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, said: "We have never seen any relocation. The contractors cannot just sell the trees. That is theft."

While the trees may be ornaments to Israelis, olives are the lifeblood of Palestinian agriculture, almost the only crop which grows on the stony hillsides of the West Bank without irrigation. Most Palestinians are unemployed after two years of violence and their staple diet is bread and olive oil.

About 11,000 Palestinian farmers will lose all or some of their land holdings to the fence. Sharif Omar, from the village of Jayous, near the Israeli town of Kochav Yair, said: "I have lost almost everything. I have lost 2,700 fruit and olive trees. And 44 of 50 acres I own have been confiscated for the fence."

His village lost seven wells, 15,000 olive trees and 50,000 citrus and other fruit trees. "This area is the agricultural store for the West Bank. They are destroying us," he said.

Israel is offering compensation for confiscated agricultural land but Palestinians are unlikely to apply, as they still hope to get their land back.

The Palestinian Agriculture Ministry says 200,000 olive trees have been destroyed by Israeli soldiers and settlers in the past two years to provide security for settlers.

The £90 million fence will prevent suicide bombers infiltrating into Israel. But some Israeli border communities say depriving Palestinians of their livelihood will make for worse, not better, neighbours.

[Dilettante]

(Coronach)
Yes, yes...I know Arafat is a terrorist. However, if he were to (stay with me now!) actually call for a real, true, honest-to-goodness ceasefire and end to hostilities, we all know that his underlings would either 1. kill him, 2. oust him, 3. just do their own thing anyway. I'm quite sure that #3 has happened a number of times already.

It's even worse than that. Arafat did publicly call for peace and mutual recognition...and at the same time--even from the beginning-- he promised his supporters that they would destroy Israel.
No one will ever believe him again when he talks about peace. Someday he's going to die, and then hopefully some progress can be made.

[OF]

What difference does it make how 'moderate' a HAMAS leader is? This murdering slime was the 'most likely' to negotiate? Death is what the bus-bombing scum deserve, and that is what they will get. Even the 'moderate' bus-bombing scum.

Arafat was offered virtually everything he ever asked for and he turned it down. There will only be peace when there is victory.

- Gabe

[Keith]

If the olive trees are on the border, they need to be removed to make way for that fence.
It's just another example of twisted thinking when Europeans make a stink about Israel building a border fence. Europeans certainly have fences along their borders, yet when Israel builds one (with far more reason) the Europeans begin screaming and running in circles to demonstrate their outrage.

As for Arafat being in exile - that's a ridiculous assertion that has nothing to do with reality at all! Arafat has not been in exile since Oslo, he's been comfortably ensconced within the Palestinian Authority, busy stealing all the aid sent by various nations.

Keith

[agricola]

Keith,

the point of that article was to show you that the Palestinians - at least eleven thousand of them - have been farming their lands and not sat idly in a refugee camp. What has the years of effort put into growing citrus, oranges and olives brought them? Besides, what kind of planning authority approved a plan that takes out eleven thousand small farms, to say nothing of large areas of towns, markets, an aluminium factory. Also, this is not the border between Israel and the West Bank - that is the so-called "Green Line" - but rather this is a further "security zone" to that line which rests almost totally on Palestinian land.

Oslo was in 1993, and I have stated twice on this thread that the PA is corrupt, and that corruption is down largely to Arafat and his cronies. However you stated:

The Palestinians do not live in misery because of Israel, but because their misery is the currency used by Arafat and his thugs to garner world sympathy. If the PA allowed their subjects to begin farming and manufacturing, they'd lose much of their support - so it continues.

Prior to 1993 the Palestinians were living in misery in any case, as the history of the camps both inside the Occupied Territories and cases like Sabra and Shatila show - so your point is moot before we even get to 1993. Since then, graft has been a major feature of the PA regime - but the PA has been rendered totally ineffective, and this is almost totally down to Israeli state policy.

[Dilettante]

Sabra and Shatila were in Lebanon, not in Israel or Places Sometimes Referred To As Palestine.

[agricola]

dilettante,

which is why there was the distinction between them and the Occupied Territories

[GinSlinger]

According to the CIA, in 2002 Palestine (Gaza Strip and the West Bank) had a population of a little over 2 million. In that same year, the "government" of Palestine had $930 mil in revenues, and $2 BILLION in foriegn aid. Seems to me that keeping ones population in poverty IS a good way to make a little extra cash.

FWIW, the reason that the Palestinian people are experiencing high unemployment is because of the increased restrictions in travel for Palestinians into Isreal due to security concerns. Yet, the man on the street doesn't seem to blame the PLO, Hammas, or homicide bombers; he blames Isreal for the loss of his job. Arrafat IS playing his people as pawns, and they lick his hand and wag their tails for it.

GinSlinger

Oh, and as an aside, in 2002 Isreal recieved $730 million in foriegn aid.

[Keith]

Prior to 1993 the Palestinians were living in misery in any case, as the history of the camps both inside the Occupied Territories and cases like Sabra and Shatila show - so your point is moot before we even get to 1993. Since then, graft has been a major feature of the PA regime - but the PA has been rendered totally ineffective, and this is almost totally down to Israeli state policy.

Arafat was the leader prior to Oslo and he's the leader now - at least he controls all the instruments of power.
Terrorists were unhindered by Arafat prior to Oslo, and they remain unhindered by him today.
Arafat controlled the economic aid that poured in after Oslo - the aid that was supposed to build irrigation systems, power, roads and other economic infrastructure. The money is gone and none of these things exist.
The Palestinians lived in camps prior to Oslo, and they live in camps today despite the land and money given Araft to change that situation.

Arafat is the problem. Not Israel.

Keith

[2dogs]

The 2dogs peace plan:

1. Offer all Palestinians who wish to live in peace as productive Israeli citizens the chance to do so.

2. Offer those who don't want to take option #1 a one way ticket to whichever stone age sandpit of an Arab country they want.

3. Give those who refuse option #1 or option #2 a "roadmap" and a one way ticket to hell.


The country is Israel- the Palestinians have had their chance at peace and a state, and rejected it all for murder. They deserve nothing, have earned nothing- it's time for Israel TO GET RID OF THEM one way or another.

Wars are fought as a last resort until there is a winner and a loser, winner take all. That's how it's always been- it's way past time.



:fire: :(

[Keith]

1. Offer all Palestinians who wish to live in peace as productive Israeli citizens the chance to do so.

Why would any nation choose to open immigration to people who have been killing them for 50 years? In fact, the Palestinians would promptly swamp the country and it would in effect, become "Palestine". They'd probably vote to expel all the Jewish citizens.

The Palestinians have their own land. Let them kill Arafat and his cronies and make something out of it, as Israel has done with its land.

Keith

[2dogs]

Keith

I meant any already living within Israel- not the "right of return".:)

[Duncan Idaho]

The 2dogs plan suits me fine.

Ag, if it would make you feel any better, I'll see if I can talk the IDF into making the terrorist scumbags only "moderately" dead. :rolleyes:

I'd say more, but that would just upset Oleg, and you aren't worth it.

[Sean Smith]

Ultimately this is a chicken-egg problem. Each side can always point to something the other side did or said as an excuse for whatever retaliation they take. Heck, my experience in Bosnia and Macedonia leads me to belive that people will go back any arbitrary distance in time to find justifications for killing people they don't like in the here and now, and when that fails will just make up random crap. Your typical prole will believe anything you invent that reinforces their own worldview, regardless of how self-evidently stupid it is. Stroke the people's ego and give them somebody to blame and you are in like Flint.

Excuse me while I really go tangental... the main thing that has always astounded me is how stunningly ineffective the PLO, Hamas, et. al. really are. They've had decades to fight a guerilla war, and have been about as effective at it as a toy poodle on crank. They have all the moral odium, but none of the competence, of a good old fashoned commie insurrection. They may possibly be waging the least decisive major insurgency in all of recorded history. Heck, if the IRA had the resources of the PLO, they would have probably VX-ed 10 Downing Street by now. If the best you can come up with is teeny-boppers throwing rocks and some misplaced Semtex, on some level maybe you don't deserve a country.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a great example of a fundamental truism of war, which is to not persue half-measures. To the people getting killed, they aren't half measures, of course. But the Palestinians' feeble terrorist attacks don't really scare Israel in any sense that matters; they are just dangerous enough to piss them off, but not so effective that they can scare Israel into doing anything. Likewise for the Israelis; their limited offensives against the PLO and Hamas (impose a curfew here, blow up a car witha Hamas dude in it there) are enough to rile up the fruit loops, but not enough to convince them that fighting is really hopeless.

War only ends when somebody gets hopeless.

[Coronach]

All the things being said thus far do ring true in a "negotiating" format but here's the real problem. Palestinians want Isrealis dead! Palestein does not want an independant state they want Isreal gone, annihilated, gone from the face of the Earth, period! No matter what is demanded by the Palestinians or what is offered by Isreal the only thing that will satisfy Palestein is if all Isrealis commit suicide in unison and immediately.Exactly. This is my point #2.

Agricola:
But thats the thing - the various groups did observe the ceasefire of June 27 until it became obvious that the Israelis were continuing their campaign against the groups (which is understandable, but its not ceasing-fire). True, perhaps. I'll admit that I'm not up on the current situation. But my point does not rest upon the specifics of what went on this week or the last. And I'll also be the last to claim that Israel is blameless in some of the problems they're encountering.

My point stands, however, that the stated position of the militant extremists is that Israel must be destroyed, the jews slaughtered or pushed into the sea, and the land must be returned to the palestinians. That is not a minimal position that Israel can accept. Ergo, negotiations are futile.

The sooner we come to accept this hard truth, the sooner the bloodletting will cease.

Mike

[Keith]

I meant any already living within Israel- not the "right of return".

2dogs, you'd never know it from the frenzied and biased reporting, but Palestinians within Israel already have full citizenship! They vote and elect Palestinians to the Israeli Knesset (congress), own land, businesses, etc.

Keith