Clint Smith On Shotguns

Defensory

June 12, 2008, 01:49 AM

The video proves to me that high capacity semi-autos are your best bet for self-defense, and that "hardware" certainly DOES play an important part.

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not. Semi-autos are also faster.

Watch how Smith rapidly takes down six steel targets with the semi-auto. Then watch him with the single and double---his rate of fire is noticeably slower. After firing two rounds from the double, he has a little trouble breaking the shotgun open---in fact he's downright slow.

And Smith's a highly experienced shooter who's relaxed and at the range. A novice gun owner who's under high stress and being shot at by multiple perps, isn't going to fare as well as Smith in attempting to break and reload the weapon.

Smith talks about being able to "stand in a hall" and fire away with a single shot. But in a home invasion involving multiple armed perps who are shooting at you, it would be idiocy to stand in a hallway. A homeowner who wants to survive would be behind cover.

His rocking back to eject the shells with the single and double are all fine and good when you're casually shooting at steel targets at the range. But what if you're pinned down behind a couch with your back literally against the wall, or you're in a prone position?

Hardware MOST CERTAINLY plays a very important part in armed self-defense with a shotgun. That's why I choose a high capacity semi-auto.

No, it doesn't have to cost $1500.00. No, it doesn't have to have a pistol grip, sidesaddle or tactical light (as several of Smith's shotguns had in the video).

I'll happily take a 7 or 8+1 Mossie semi-auto without any of the tacticool accessories on some of Smith's shotguns. In a situation involving multiple armed perpetrators, it beats the heck out of a single or double.

There's no pump to short-stroke when you're under high stress and your life is on the line, and unlike pumps, semis are much easier to fire one-handed. An important advantage if one of your arms gets incapacitated in a shooting situation.

machinisttx

June 12, 2008, 02:30 AM

There's no pump to short-stroke when you're under high stress and your life is on the line, and unlike pumps, semis are much easier to fire one-handed. An important advantage if one of your arms gets incapacitated in a shooting situation

If you short stroke it, you haven't spent enough time using it. My home defense shotgun gets a barrel swap when hunting season rolls around---unless I just use one of my other, identical, 870 Wingmasters.

The best reload is another gun--so there is an AK(and plenty of loaded magazines) sitting right next to that shotgun.

I've fired a few thousand rounds through my 870's. I'm pretty familiar with them... Reckon I'll leave the takticul high speed stuff to the experts.

Defensory

June 12, 2008, 06:14 AM

Posted by machinisttx:
If you short stroke it, you haven't spent enough time using it. My home defense shotgun gets a barrel swap when hunting season rolls around---unless I just use one of my other, identical, 870 Wingmasters.

^Hogwash.

I've seen a Youtube video of Jerry Miculek having a failure-to-fire with one of his custom race revolvers, because by his own admission he short-stroked the trigger.

If world champion revolver shooter Jerry Miculek can short-stroke a revolver trigger while under no pressure, then self-proclaimed pump shotgun "experts" can sure short-stroke a shotgun pump while being shot at during a life-and-death situation.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.

It's a hard fact of life that millions of gunowners don't hunt, and don't practice with their weapons enough. The semi-auto is ideal for those persons, as well as for serious shooters who need the best, which is why so many SWAT teams and police departments/sheriff's offices use the semi-auto.

The best reload is another gun--so there is an AK(and plenty of loaded magazines) sitting right next to that shotgun.

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.

I've fired a few thousand rounds through my 870's. I'm pretty familiar with them... Reckon I'll leave the takticul high speed stuff to the experts.

In the event of a home invasion involving multiple armed perpetrators, you'll wish you had practiced that "takticul high speed stuff". It could be the difference between life and death for a gun owner and their family. I take my self-defense seriously. Sorry to see you don't.

JShirley

June 12, 2008, 08:24 AM

I've had self-loading shotguns malfunction on me. Not ammo related.

Only ammo-related malfs in the pumps I've had.

El Tejon

June 12, 2008, 08:39 AM

The video proves to me that high capacity semi-autos are your best bet for self-defense, and that "hardware" certainly DOES play an important part.

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not. Semi-autos are also faster.

Maybe, maybe not. Did you watch the DVD? It always depends. Remember the part where Smith cannot get the ubertactical Benelli shotgun to function when he is down on the ground as there was not enough resistance from his "hummingbird" (Smith's own words to describe his thin/lanky build) frame?

Smith talks about being able to "stand in a hall" and fire away with a single shot. But in a home invasion involving multiple armed perps who are shooting at you, it would be idiocy to stand in a hallway. A homeowner who wants to survive would be behind cover.

The hallway scenario is a standard frame of reference for Smith's lectures and does not anticipate an exposed position. In my many classes at Thunder Ranch I have not heard Smith say that one should stand full value numbnuts in the open and has yelled at yours truly for not using cover effectively in the shoot houses, etc.

His rocking back to eject the shells with the single and double are all fine and good when you're casually shooting at steel targets at the range. But what if you're pinned down behind a couch with your back literally against the wall, or you're in a prone position?

Come to class, he'll show you.

Hardware MOST CERTAINLY plays a very important part in armed self-defense with a shotgun.

Maybe, but not everyone has a self-loading shotgun or can guarantee that they will fight with one. For those reasons, it's always good to learn to use multiple weapons.

Smith emphasizes reloading the shotgun during his shotgun classes. Even your HSLD Mossie will run out of ammo. Smith emphasizes reloading it.

Smith teaches his students to run what they brung and has a broad experience with all types of shotguns. Indeed, I have seen all sorts of shotguns at the classes at Thunder Ranch, self-loading, slide-actions, doubles and singles.

The problem is, Def, as I'm sure you've seen too, is that people buy a weapon and think they are done, when, if fact, they have only started.:D

Rupestris

June 12, 2008, 08:48 AM

Man, I'm glad I grew up in Detroit and not in Defensory's neighborhood :D.

Never had to worry about multiple armed perps entering a house. If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out. :p

El Tejon

June 12, 2008, 10:33 AM

If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

Now that's a Dee-troit Reverse B&E!!!:uhoh:

Gary A

June 12, 2008, 12:52 PM

If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

Hmm, maybe that's more reason to have an extended magazine semi-auto so you can go out like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.:)

ArmedBear

June 12, 2008, 01:08 PM

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not.

I wouldn't say that.

I've never been attacked and had to use a shotgun to fend off the attacker. I assume that this would cause a fair amount of stress.

When I have used a semiauto under conditions that weren't controlled and relaxed, it's been hunting. Quail hunting in the high desert can be long, tedious and fatiguing, punctuated by an adrenaline rush, so it's an indication of what happens under stress.

I've loaded a shell backwards in an 1100 when quail hunting. That's easy enough to do when your eyes are looking out, not at the gun -- same as in a defensive scenario. The backwards shell went right in without resistance, but it does NOT come right back out. The gun was nothing but a 4-foot steel-and-walnut club.

This doesn't happen ever with a break-action gun, and I think it's easier to clear in a pump.

Something to consider before making blanket assumptions.

June 12, 2008, 01:12 PM

Private messages asked me to post some more of my take in this thread for some reason.
Why?
I don't know.
I am just a dumb southern boy that has never attended a known gun / training facility for defensive shotgun use.
"Nor have I for any firearm use, edged weapon, or martial art.
Private lessons is all I have.

I have slapped trigger on a shotgun a few times, and started slapping at age 5.

-Anything can and will break.
Mr. Murphy will show up at the worst time as well.

-Mechanical things are designed as they are for a reason.
They are designed to mesh with other parts within themselves, and to mesh with any components used with them, and how maintained.
Mechanical things are designed to function , and be used with components with certain specifications.

If something is altered, something is affected. That something affected , affects something else.
Domino Theory.

Reliability is based on mechanical things being manufactured with quality components, and being kept and maintained to specifications.

Shotguns are designed to use certain ammunition.
Chambers are marked and the mfg will state what a shotgun is designed to work with best.

-Everything mechanical has pro's and con's.

--
...I need to know how to run the gun I got... - Mr. Clint Smith.

Wise words.

I do not want a magazine extension, or a side saddle mounted to the side of a receiver.

Anything altered can and will alter the mechanical aspects of a design.
Such as the mag extension not feeding a round, or if a side saddle is too tight, not allowing a action to cycle.

Oh it might do this just fine, until a serious situation comes up, and that is when Mr. Murphy will show up as well.

Butt Cuffs have a place.
While they will not affect the mechanical design of the gun, They WILL affect the physical characteritics of the gun.
Not just the balance of the gun...

Weak side shooting will cut a face, as they do not allow a proper "mounting gun to face" hold.
This affects the correct basic fundamentals of shooting...
Which affects one getting on target.

Domino Theory.

-There is No Best Shotgun, No Holy Grail, No Absolutes.

One should never buy a shotgun ( or anything) and think that just because they have a certain make, model , action type they are "Set".

Examples.

In my opinion, the finest semi auto shotgun is the Win Super X Model 1
I have a 1974 model I have personally put around 300,000 rds through.

Machined Steel, crafted, and Bob Brister even wrote in his work - Shotgunning: The Art & Science

The Win SX1 was the most reliable shotgun he tested in all sorts of environments, including blowing sand.

This gun was made to shoot a 2 3/4" shell as that is what it is chambered for, that is 2 3/4 dr min with 1 1/8" oz of payload.

This is the min spec, as that was the Skeet loading used at the time.
Nobody "really" shot a 7/8 oz load from a 12 ga, and very few were shooting 1oz loads back in '74.
I know, I was there.

This SX1 had fixed choked barrels, from Sk, IC, M, F, and Slug.
We shot "Two Gun" back in the day, before 3 gun came to be, with these guns and used the Slug barrel.
We shot slugs a lot...

The Remington 1100 came out, and was a "stamped" shotgun that ran.
It had the same specs in regard to ammo loading as the SX1, and other guns of the time, like the Beretta 303.

Pay attention here.

These two guns run, with ammo they were designed for.
In our defensive lessons, they had less felt recoil.
They would allow one to run the gun one handed, such as when we would have a "baby" or "child" in one hand and have to fire as we executed a stage.

One day someone said "The SX1 and 1100 is the Perfect Gun!"

I snatched the bolt handle out of a SX1 and a Mentor snatched the Bolt Handle out of a 1100 from the two folks that had announced this "perfect gun".

"Whatcha gonna do?"

One second these two boys were standing 3 feet off the ground, with puffed out chests, and the next deflated like a burst balloon.

"We....we don't know?" they said.

I grabbed a pocket knife and racked back the bolt.
Mentor did the same thing with the gun he had.

These two boys freaked at using "good" Case pocket knives and doing that.

Mentor, myself and others were running guns with the Plugs in them, thus limiting us to 3 shells total.
Reality is, one is to avoid trouble, know how to run the gun, keep it running, and it don't matter how many shells one has , in a serious situation one cannot keep up with how many shells they have or what kind.

We were often out and about in Migratory areas where a gun had to be plugged.
We just run what we brung, so did Skeet and Trap Shooters.
WE were mentored to NOT rely on shotguns, ammo, how many rounds, or what kind to keep us safe.
First off - avoid trouble.
Second, leave if trouble showed up, and Third, if we had to deal with trouble, it was the skill sets WE had, not the darn shotgun ( any firearm or tool) we employed "running what we brung".

Pros and Con's: Win 1400 will never have a bolt handle "pull out", it is the softest shooting semi auto, and it is limited by design to 3 shells total.

Clint Smith I have never met.
Nor have I met Awerbuck, or Randy Cain.

I do agree with them, and I am dumb as a brick.

My experiences and my observations include:
Win Model 12, 1300, Ithaca 37, Remington 870 being run faster than the Semi Autos.

Single shot and two barrel shotguns like 311, Win 101, 23, Citoris, Berettas...
Getting two shots fired faster ( with the single shot) and 4 shots faster ( single shot and two barrel guns) than repeating guns.

Krieghoff breaking a sear, and this a NIB, Benelli's breaking, and other top notch guns, going down.

I've seen a JC Higgens, pawn shop special, refuse to quit.
$50 gun, and being run hard, put up wet, just to see how long it would go being mistreated.

I know the 1100 20 ga with a fixed Sk choked barrel, 26" long, with the plug in will stop a threat.
More than once, as I knew these folks.
Just Skeet guns, used for skeet and bird hunting.
One lady used slugs, the best she had shot was about 75/100 another lady #3 buck that ran high 80's /100.

I know what a 311 will do during Riots, as will a Win 101.
None of the firebombs made it to a porch or roof...
This in low light/no light.

I know what a youth 20 ga single shot with slugs will do against a car of criminals, at night, with intent to loot, rob, and perhaps rape, shooting guns as they come onto property.

I was very young, and I was in the best position, and Mentors gave me that look, one they wished like hell they did not have to , and stopped that threat.
I cannot explain it, just in the short time it took for them to get in a better position, or to me (both)
The threat was stopped.
The vehicles back then were big and heavy...

If I ever meet / attend where Clint Smith, or Awerbuck is ...

I will be there with pencil and paper and "Sir, I don't know squat, but I want to know, teach me, please".

I have communicated this same attitude to Clint Smith, Will Fennell, Awerbuck, Givens, Ayoob, El Tejon, Dave McCracken, Zak Smith, Lee Lapin, PJR, TrapperReady and countless others.

I'll have to borrow a shotgun, and a real pair of shooting glasses, and other equip.

Life is Life, and fire, flood, tornadoes and theft have taken from me.
I have two shotguns.
I keep a single shot youth 20 ga handy.

Tornadoes almost got my SX1 I had "retired" and put in safe keeping.
It survived.
I lost all the other firearms in that location.

I gotta single shot youth 20 ga, and I am fine with this.
Just a Koplin butt cuff.
I only use slugs.
I am not smart enough to keep up with what type of ammo is what.
So I just use 2 3/4" slugs.

Just a dumb southern boy that don't know better...

"...I need to know how to run the gun I got..."

ArmedBear

June 12, 2008, 01:17 PM

Small addendum...

I have a spare bolt handle for my 1100. I found it one day, lying in the dirt. They DO fall out.:)

Marlin 45 carbine

June 12, 2008, 01:18 PM

that ol' boy would ruin a perp's day for sure. after looking the video 3X I'm almost certain the SXS he uses is a Stoeger (I have the Coach 12ga Mag.) which doesn't have sprung shell ejectors. I took mine down and polished the surfaces until it opens really slick for faster reloads. for some reason it's the only gun I own that I feel invincible carrying - I've practiced with it much. that and a Makarov stuck in strong-side pocket - a fella is armed very well for around the home-defense.

machinisttx

June 12, 2008, 01:20 PM

^Hogwash.

I've seen a Youtube video of Jerry Miculek having a failure-to-fire with one of his custom race revolvers, because by his own admission he short-stroked the trigger.

If world champion revolver shooter Jerry Miculek can short-stroke a revolver trigger while under no pressure, then self-proclaimed pump shotgun "experts" can sure short-stroke a shotgun pump while being shot at during a life-and-death situation.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.

It's a hard fact of life that millions of gunowners don't hunt, and don't practice with their weapons enough. The semi-auto is ideal for those persons, as well as for serious shooters who need the best, which is why so many SWAT teams and police departments/sheriff's offices use the semi-auto.

Jerry uses a revolver with an extremely light action. It's significantly easier to short stroke a revolver with a light rebound spring than one with a factory weight rebound spring. How do I know? I shoot revolvers almost exclusively, and three of mine have light actions. Not race gun light, but significantly lighter than stock. Oddly enough, I don't have problems with short stroking the stock actions, but have short stroked the light ones. Darn, maybe what the factory made is better? Or could it be that shooting guns with stock actions for 20 odd years has me accustomed to them and not the lighter modified ones?

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.

O rly? But they can afford two $400+ a month vehicle payments, a $90 land line phone bill and a $100+ cell phone bill--along with designer clothing, brand new appliances, and furniture? Ridiculous.

In the event of a home invasion involving multiple armed perpetrators, you'll wish you had practiced that "takticul high speed stuff". It could be the difference between life and death for a gun owner and their family. I take my self-defense seriously. Sorry to see you don't.

The statistical likelihood of me being engaged in the taktikul gun forum guys wet dream SHTF situation is next to nonexistent. I practice enough to do what needs doing, and nothing else. You can continue to practice being Delta Force or space shuttle door gunner, I have other things to do. :)

RobertFBurnett

June 12, 2008, 11:45 PM

"The gun you got"

I saw a clip on guntalktv.com with Mr. Smith discussing Autopistol vs. revolver for SD...somewhere along the way he said something very similar: "If I have a revolver I'll defend myself with a revolver, If I have an Auto I'll defend myself with an Auto, it's about getting comfortable defending yourself with what you got."

Or something like that, I've liked His work ever since,

My $0.02

RFB

Defensory

June 13, 2008, 02:49 AM

Rupestris:
Man, I'm glad I grew up in Detroit and not in Defensory's neighborhood .

Never had to worry about multiple armed perps entering a house. If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

A guy I know still has a round in his thigh from an attempted carjacking several months ago. The surgeon said it was too close to the main nerve line to risk removing it. Luckily, he was carrying a high capacity semi-auto handgun, which is the only reason he's alive today.

Those who claim "There's virtually no chance it'll ever happen to me", and thus don't prepare themselves, often end up dead.

It's a myth that these types of things don't happen in "nice" neighborhoods. Cheshire, Connecticut is a predominantly upper middle class "nice" suburban area, and I'm sure you've heard about the home invasion there a while back, where a prominent doctor's wife and two daughters were sexually assaulted and murdered by two home invaders. He was also seriously injured and his home was set ablaze.

Defensory

June 13, 2008, 03:06 AM

Posted by Gary A:
Quote:
If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

Hmm, maybe that's more reason to have an extended magazine semi-auto so you can go out like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

I used to live in Michigan, and don't recall many people getting burned out of their houses by gangbangers. But I sure remember a lot of home invasions on the news sources from Detroit.

Even if I were forced out of my home, I'd STILL want a high capacity semi-auto shotgun.

Edmundo Mireles, one of the heroes of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, became a strong advocate of semi-auto shotguns after he almost lost his life trying to use a pump shotgun one-handed against the perpetrators, after one of them had disabled one of his arms with semi-auto rifle fire.

mavracer

June 13, 2008, 07:08 AM

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so I'm presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.
there I fixed it for you. and still you presume every one has enough for a Hi-cap autoloader.
A guy I know still has a round in his thigh from an attempted carjacking several months ago. The surgeon said it was too close to the main nerve line to risk removing it. Luckily, he was carrying a high capacity semi-auto handgun, which is the only reason he's alive today.

A: how do you know a defensive driving class,throwing the gun on the pass seat and using evasive driving (with both hands now) wouldn't have worked better.
B: you stated in another thread that the perps were not apprehended so how do you know they broke off due to the HI-CAP auto and not because the driver had to poop.

Gary A

June 13, 2008, 11:04 AM

Defensory, of course you make good points. I was just having fun with the mental picture of dashing out from the burning house spewing lead in all directions before finally succumbing to overwhelming force. My neighborhood is not perfect but is generally some levels of magnitude quieter than that. If it were like that, I would leave no stone unturned in seeking a way to leave and if I were financially unable to leave, I think there's a good chance I might be financially unable to possess a quality semi-auto shotgun and might have to make do with whatever I might have, old SxS, single-shot, cheap pump, whatever. Which goes back to Clint Smith's point of learning "to run the gun I got".

Which brings up another point you allude to: People who suffer these invasions are often those who live in vulnerable neighborhoods (back to financial resources), or people pretty high on the food chain who are visible and attractive targets. I am fortunately not as vulnerable as some and unfortunately am not as well-off as others. Around here, it is unlikely that there are many people who would be willing to engage in deadly confrontation over my "stuff" (actually including me). Since I have no deadly enemies of which I am aware, the prospect of someone trying to burn my brick home to get me to engage in a firefight in the yard is...ah, remote but admittedly not absolutely impossible. I suspect that any kind of shotgun of acceptable gauge that I am able to operate will serve me well.

JShirley

June 13, 2008, 01:08 PM

Defensory,

One day, I want to have a nice SA shotgun again. I'm a bit torn between a traditional American-style shotgun or a SAIGA-12. (Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWmMNHSVR4I)'s the cheesy but point-making video from Saiga.)

The thing is, it's just not a priority. I have concealable handguns, duty/range- sized handguns, a bolt-action shotgun, a good pump gun that fits me, slide and bolt rifles, and a modern carbine of a type from which I've fired thousands of rounds. So, the auto shotgun falls into the "neat but not necessary" category.

Thing is, it's faster to clear a pump gun than an auto. Yeah, it's possible an auto may be faster, if things go right, for most people. But, when things go wrong?

Here's the deal: you get to choose which bad things you are more willing to deal with. You like auto shotguns. Great. That's your choice, which you have to make based on your experiences and on those of folks you respect.

My experiences have taught me that some auto shotguns malf easily (and a few kick extra hard, too). I'm more willing to take the chance on having to run a pump gun one-handed than I am on being slower because of bad ammunition or a firearm-related malfunction.

YMMV.

John

rbernie

June 13, 2008, 03:06 PM

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.
Experience has shown me that effective self defense has more to do with FINDING a useful weapon when trouble appears than almost anything else. Most folk (including myself) that have been in potentially lethal confrontations will tell you than access to a firearm at the moment of need is far from a sure thing.

I dunno about y'all, but I do not have the ability to carry a semiauto shotgun strapped across my back on a daily basis. I also do not have the financial means to pre-position X2s or Saiga12s in multiple places about my house, land, vehicles, and place of work. On the other hand, I can afford to buy a handful of pumps, for example, and position them in useful places - and all for the same cost as one tactical X2.

All other debates regarding reload times and such aside, that alone sounds like a good reason to spend the effort needed to learn to run a pump - because having multiples is one of the best ways to ensure ready access when needed....

YMMV - but when da chit hits da fan, I doubt it.

Edmundo Mireles, one of the heroes of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, became a strong advocate of semi-auto shotguns after he almost lost his life trying to use a pump shotgun one-handed against the perpetrators, after one of them had disabled one of his arms with semi-auto rifle fire.For someone who has prior knowledge that a confrontation is fixin' to occur and can arm himself appropriately in advance, and who also has others buying his iron for him, that makes a lot of sense. I would not extrapolate outside of those boundaries more than is rational.

Browning

June 13, 2008, 04:10 PM

^Hogwash.

I've seen a Youtube video of Jerry Miculek having a failure-to-fire with one of his custom race revolvers, because by his own admission he short-stroked the trigger.

If world champion revolver shooter Jerry Miculek can short-stroke a revolver trigger while under no pressure, then self-proclaimed pump shotgun "experts" can sure short-stroke a shotgun pump while being shot at during a life-and-death situation.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.

It's a hard fact of life that millions of gunowners don't hunt, and don't practice with their weapons enough. The semi-auto is ideal for those persons, as well as for serious shooters who need the best, which is why so many SWAT teams and police departments/sheriff's offices use the semi-auto.

Well that's kind of the problem isn't it (that they don't practice or hunt)?

If they were actually familar with their weapon then perhaps they wouldn't be short stroking their shotgun (which is what machinisttx was saying to begin with). I own and shoot pumps and I've never short stroked one of my shotguns and had a malfunction as a result, not even once.

Then again I shoot ALOT.

Semi-auto shotguns are great and I like them a little better too, but not everyone can afford them.

At $125 to $200 a pop almost everyone can afford a pump.

What's better, a hundred and twentyfive dollar pump shotgun that you've practiced with by the dresser?

Or an envelope filled with some cash that you're putting away to buy the latest and greatest semi-auto shotgun?

Besides, maybe you could tone it down a notch, no one here's attacking you.

JShirley

June 13, 2008, 06:03 PM

I am.

No, just kidding. :D

John

Navy joe

June 13, 2008, 11:40 PM

Jerry uses a revolver with an extremely light action. It's significantly easier to short stroke a revolver with a light rebound spring than one with a factory weight rebound spring. How do I know? I shoot revolvers almost exclusively, and three of mine have light actions.

Thread veer. Jerry hates light rebound springs, he says the trigger doesn't get back fast enough for his finger. I use a 625 with a light rebound because I like my 6lb DA game pull. Not that I'd ever use it outside a game.

Favorite SD shotgun I now possess is my $100 invested Ithaca 37 police trade-in. No sidesaddle, nothing on it except a painted old arms room number. It's perfect. In fact $515 got me out of the door with that and a Glock 17. Self defense can be affordable.

Dave Williams

June 15, 2008, 09:28 AM

Great post sm.

Dave Williams

The Wiry Irishman

June 15, 2008, 01:03 PM

After firing two rounds from the double, he has a little trouble breaking the shotgun open---in fact he's downright slow.

From watching the video, I got the impression that he was deliberately moving slow to demonstrate the technique.

Harley Quinn

June 15, 2008, 01:20 PM

At $125 to $200 a pop almost everyone can afford a pump.

Yep, good place to start:D

ravencon

June 15, 2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:
After firing two rounds from the double, he has a little trouble breaking the shotgun open---in fact he's downright slow.

From watching the video, I got the impression that he was deliberately moving slow to demonstrate the technique.

I concur. But it is usually pointless to interject an interpretation or opinion that conflicts with someone's pet theory. :)

Dirty Bob

June 15, 2008, 03:46 PM

The used market for shotguns is, IMHO, better than the used market for pistols and rifles. My first name-brand, high-quality used pump cost me $150; my second (28 years later) was $250. Neither has ever given me a moments trouble, and with the low cost of the guns, I can spend my $$ on ammo (and am doing so). Clint has a recent article out there on low cost shotguns for HD. He shows different setups, with a $500 ceiling for everything in each case, including lights and buttstock ammo carriers.

I think a no-frills 20ga. pump, with no modifications, would serve 90% of the population as their primary HD long gun.

YMMV,
Dirty Bob

Defensory

June 16, 2008, 02:32 AM

Posted by Wiry Irishman:
From watching the video, I got the impression that he was deliberately moving slow to demonstrate the technique.

Posted by ravencon:
I concur. But it is usually pointless to interject an interpretation or opinion that conflicts with someone's pet theory.

The barrel of his double is moving around while he's trying to get it open. Bad form, AND slow.

No "pet theory" to it. In a home invasion situation involving multiple armed perpetrators, a high capacity semi-automatic shotgun is clearly superior to a single shot or double barrel, whether the shooter is a novice or an expert.

It's simple common sense.

June 16, 2008, 03:37 AM

Defensory

June 16, 2008, 04:06 AM

"[LAPD] SWAT uses two shotguns. The Remington 870, a pump-action 12-gauge workhorse that is one of the most popular shotguns in law-enforcement service today, was the first shotgun issued to SWAT officers in its early years. But its pumping action was found to be cumbersome, especially during the chaos of a prolonged close-range firefight. They remain in use, but are mainly deployed for firing diversionary munitions, such as the highly effective Starflash, or for blowing doors off their hinges. Many of the SWAT team's weapons have been modified by the platoon's armorer.

Today, SWAT's two main shotguns are the Italian-made Benelli 12-gauge M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli 121-M-1 recoil-operation semiautomatic shotgun. "The Benelli is a masterpiece of ballistic handiwork," says a SWAT officer, effortlessly inserting shells into his weapon as he prepares for the day's action. "It is comfortable to fire, accurate and it fits our needs perfectly." Officers zero the Benelli sights for a center hole at about 150 ft., with 1-ounce slugs and patterned for various distances with 00-buckshot magnum ammunition. Virtually all of the Benellis are fitted with a mini-flashlight attachment."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1280896.html?page=3

June 16, 2008, 05:34 AM

I don't care what a Dept is issued.
Often times a Dept is issued what the low bid is.

Nice job of baiting though.

Again, your post has been reported to a moderator.

El Tejon

June 16, 2008, 07:02 AM

Again, did you see Clint with the Benelli on the ground in the DVD?

The "masterpiece" would not run.;)

JShirley

June 16, 2008, 09:32 AM

Quoting Popular Mechanics does not equal evidence of anything, other than that Popular Mechanics has said something.

Personally, I'll take practically any modern repeating shotgun over a Benelli. I'd almost rather have a single-shot H&R.

mavracer

June 16, 2008, 09:43 AM

No "pet theory" to it. In a home invasion situation involving multiple armed perpetrators, a high capacity semi-automatic shotgun is clearly superior to a single shot or double barrel, whether the shooter is a novice or an expert.

It's simple common sense.
if the hi-cap auto gives you the confidence to stand and fight where as the single shot makes you think tactics IE move and flank so you can engage one perp at a time you would be better served by the single shot.

Harley Quinn

June 16, 2008, 10:19 AM

The original shotgun the LAPD used was the 37 Ithaca. All personel carried them (even SWAT)...

The largest single user outside the US Military is the Los Angeles Police Department. Along with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, numerous other users include military, police, security agencies, and prisons. The Ithaca 37 was a popular choice among civilians for both sport and personal protection. With higher prices for new Ithaca's and decreasing availability compared to the Mossberg 500 and Remington 870, use of the Ithaca 37 continues to decline. Interestingly, Ithaca's loss of market share was hastened by competition from a copy of the shotgun. Chinese copies of the Ithaca 37 (itself a copy of the Remington Model 17) have been imported recently. Additionally, the supply of used civilian and departmental shotguns has been a steady competitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_37

:)

Defensory

June 18, 2008, 04:36 AM

Posted by mavracer:
if the hi-cap auto gives you the confidence to stand and fight where as the single shot makes you think tactics IE move and flank so you can engage one perp at a time you would be better served by the single shot.

Please stop with the irrelevant Rambo conjecture.

I live in a tri-level. If three armed perps carrying semi-auto handguns entered through the front door, there would be NO escape if I were on either of the top two levels of the house.

There would be NO way to out-flank them. I would HAVE to fight. I would be dead for sure if I had a single shot. With a high-capacity semi-auto, I'd have a CONSIDERABLY better chance of surviving.

The perps aren't going to pause while you reload a single shot, and to take out three perps you'd have to reload at least twice. And that's assuming NO misses, which is a rarity in a shootout situation.

The perps aren't going to just stand there when you raise that single shot, they'll be shooting and diving for cover. A single shot would be a death sentence. Having to break the gun open , insert a shell, close it up, aim and fire---all under extreme stress while being fired upon by multiple perps---means you're going to be a dead man.

A high capacity semi-auto shotgun will GREATLY improve your chances of surviving a home invasion or other multi-perp incident.

To those of you who proclaim me to be "paranoid" (which is the same argumentive tactic and terminology anti-2A gun grabbers like Chuck Schumer use against gun owners) and say "it'll never happen"---I know a guy whose first-born child, his son, was murdered in a home invasion. I've talked with him face-to-face on numerous occasions, so this isn't something I heard "from a friend of a friend". NO, the son was NOT selling drugs. This was a random robbery, plain and simple.

As already mentioned, I also know a guy who was shot during an attempted carjacking. He still has a hollow point in his thigh to this day.

There's another guy I also know, who lives just a couple streets down from me, who came home one day and found four burglars in his home. He lives in a very average middle class home in a very average middle class neighborhood. So much for the myth that "crooks only go for the 'big scores' in wealthy neighborhoods."

mavracer

June 18, 2008, 07:58 AM

rbernie

June 18, 2008, 09:21 AM

I live in a tri-level. If three armed perps carrying semi-auto handguns entered through the front door, there would be NO escape if I were on either of the top two levels of the house.

There would be NO way to out-flank them. I would HAVE to fight. I would be dead for sure if I had a single shot. With a high-capacity semi-auto, I'd have a CONSIDERABLY better chance of surviving.You'd be dead for sure? Dang. So I have to ask - would it be better for you if there were only two? Twice as bad if there are four? At what point are you just gonna look like Scarface on the balcony? Eight?

But, in retrospect, this whole line of debate is a straw man. Your actual quotable original argument was:

The video proves to me that high capacity semi-autos are your best bet for self-defense, and that "hardware" certainly DOES play an important part.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.
You are decrying the ability of folk to use anything other than a high-capacity semiauto weapon.

Ask James Walton (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/101507dnmetburglar.2dd8d7c.html), the 70 yr old man who twice last year had to shoot and kill intruders in his Dallas business. He survived two violent encounters in three weeks, and didn't use a hi-cap semiauto shotgun to do it. He used a shotgun, all right, but it dang sure wasn't a Benelli.

Clint's point is that mindset is the most important thing. Bring the best tools you have, but bring the will to fight more than anything else. A person with the will to fight and a single-shot is far more dangerous than a person with a high-cap semiauto who's not mentally and emotionally in the fray. Relying on hardware to the detriment of mindset or tactics is BAD.

Now, you may have all the things needed; mindset, plans, and so forth. You may have the financial ability to buy a Benelli and make it work reliably for you. That's terrific.

But the point of the video is that you don't NEED a high-cap semi-auto to do the job. You need a tool that works 100% of the time and that you know how to use.

The rest is mindset.

Dave Williams

June 20, 2008, 08:58 AM

Benelli tactical semi auto shotguns are awesome guns! Benelli tactical semi auto shotguns are pieces of crap!:confused:

People who own and train with them love them, like Dave3006. He reported seeing guys with pump guns in training classes have nothing but operator induced malfunctions with their guns while he hummed along with his Benelli. Another guy whose name escapes me reported that at the class he attended they had to have two seperate shootoffs at the end of his class, one for guys with pump guns, and the other for guys with Benellis, because the guys with autos were just so fast! Major PDs SWAT units like LAPD, Cleveland, Detroit, El Paso, and lot's of smaller units all have guys/did have guys with Benellis at the front of their entry teams. One of them recently triple tapped a guy reaching for a .45 in his waistband at a drug house, result???? DRT In a suburb of Akron a few years ago, a plainclothes cop on duty responded to a bank robbery in progress and a gunfight ensued. He hosed down the cab of the robbers truck with the 14" Benelli he had been responsible for issuing to his PD, result? DRT

There's a reason these PDs like these guns, there is a lot of "firepower" available for the close range fight.

Anchorage SWAT dumped their Benelli tactical shotguns because they were finicky and unreliable for Vang 870s. I think I read that LAPD SWAT has to clean and lube their Benellis every day and use 3" magnum ammo to keep them reliable. Scott Reitz used to carry the Benelli on LAPD SWAT. His choice of shotgun nowadays? 870 Hmmmmm Clint Smith had a Benelli malfunction on tape!!!

I had a female ride along a few years ago who weighed 120lbs soaking wet. Took her down to the range an let her do mag dump after mag dump with a 18" Benelli M1 Super 90. It was an awesome sight of close range firepower, a lot of lead downrange in a short time period with a person with no experience whatsoever with a shotgun, she would never have been able to do so with a pump gun. I have done one handed mag dumps with the same gun, I think it is an awesome gun. They are very popular police shotguns in this area. I would feel very well armed with a Benelli. I feel very well armed with an 870 or a single or double also.

Dave Williams

DMR

June 20, 2008, 01:51 PM

Clint has it right tools are tools. Use what you have. I have a wish list of firearms I would LIKE to have, but I seldom buy them because what I have does what I need them do.

If I had to build a house and all I had was a hammer and hand saw would I quit? We all know, after all, you can't build a house without power tools, air compressors, ect. Trouble is some forgot to tell folks like the Amish it can be done. Around here I've seen the Amish replace barns that burned down in less then a week using hand tools. Give the same job to a normal crew with power tools ect and it may take a month.

Bottom line gear is not the solution, training and mindset are.

Defensory

June 21, 2008, 02:38 AM

Posted by DMR:
Clint has it right tools are tools. Use what you have. I have a wish list of firearms I would LIKE to have, but I seldom buy them because what I have does what I need them do.

Clint doesn't have it right. You've got to have the RIGHT tool for the RIGHT job. Different jobs require different tools.

If you're the victim of a home invasion involving three or four perpetrators armed with high capacity semi-auto handguns , a single-shot shotgun is the WRONG tool for the job. You'll almost certainly be killed or at least seriously injured, while attempting to reload.

A high capacity semi-auto shotgun will give you MUCH better odds of surviving, since you won't have to reload repeatedly.

JShirley

June 21, 2008, 10:11 AM

Clint doesn't have it right. You've got to have the RIGHT tool for the RIGHT job. Different jobs require different tools.

I think you mean to say there are better tools for some jobs. Right now, you're mostly just succeeding in alienating other members.

Yeah, so a reliable semi-auto with which the user has practiced is most likely a better choice than a single shot. (Though my father could take multiple shots on running rabbits with a single.)

Further, you're going to have to produce a body of work many years long before I give you 1/10th the credence of Clint Smith. I met Clint a few years ago, and he's solid. You? Who are you?

John

PJR

June 21, 2008, 05:07 PM

A high capacity semi-auto shotgun will give you MUCH better odds of surviving, since you won't have to reload repeatedly.
Not if you panic and just open fire without selecting your targets.

Not if you don't have a plan and or have practiced with your shotgun.

Not if you don't have the fortitude to shoot another person.

If you spend $2,000 on a Benelli M4 with all the fancy gizmos and believe that's all you need do then that's advice that can get someone killed.

Mindset, a plan, practice and determination are what give you MUCH better odds regardless of firearm.

I have nothing against semi-autos and own a couple but for my own reasons prefer a pump gun for serious matters. I don't think swapping for a Benelli would improve my odds one bit. If I did I'd buy one.

Defensory

June 22, 2008, 02:49 AM

Posted by PJR:
Not if you panic and just open fire without selecting your targets.

Anyone can panic, regardless of what type of shotgun they have. It depends on the individual, not their shotgun action type. Personally, if four armed invaders busted in my house and all I had was a single-shot shotgun to fend them off, I'd be FAR MORE likely to panic. Confidence in yourself and your weapon is critical in that sort of situation, and I'd be MUCH MORE confident knowing I had 8 or 9 rounds of buckshot without having to reload.

Not if you don't have a plan and or have practiced with your shotgun.

Again, it depends on the individual rather than the action type. There are God knows how many people who own singles, doubles and pumps---who don't have a plan and don't practice.

Not if you don't have the fortitude to shoot another person.

Yet another statement that is utterly irrelevant to what type of shotgun action you have.

If you spend $2,000 on a Benelli M4 with all the fancy gizmos and believe that's all you need do then that's advice that can get someone killed.

Please show me precisely where I said that you have to spend "$2,000 on a Benelli M4 with all the fancy gizmos". A good Remington or Mossberg semi-auto can probably be had for roughly a third of that amount.

I've never given any such advice, so please stop making baseless assumptions.

Mindset, a plan, practice and determination are what give you MUCH better odds regardless of firearm.

Oh, but the type of firearm DOES make a MAJOR difference. All other things being equal, a person with a semi-auto will fare FAR BETTER in a situation involving multiple armed perps.

I have nothing against semi-autos and own a couple but for my own reasons prefer a pump gun for serious matters. I don't think swapping for a Benelli would improve my odds one bit. If I did I'd buy one.

You're making baseless assumptions again. I never said somebody had to have a Benelli semi-auto. Remington, Mossberg, FNH, Franchi and several other companies make fine semi-autos.

PJR

June 22, 2008, 08:09 AM

Personally, if four armed invaders busted in my house and all I had was a single-shot shotgun to fend them off, I'd be FAR MORE likely to panic. Confidence in yourself and your weapon is critical in that sort of situation, and I'd be MUCH MORE confident knowing I had 8 or 9 rounds of buckshot without having to reload.
We are different individuals then. My confidence doesn't come from a gun. It comes from my plan and practice. You take your confidence from hardware. I'll take mine from software.

As for the irrelevance of fortitude, it doesn't matter what type of gun you have if you are not prepared to use it. That is quite relevant to the discussion. Frankly, it's where any HD discussion should begin.

Remington, Mossberg, FNH, Franchi and several other companies make fine semi-autos.
I've stated on this board previously that I would not trust my life to a Remington semi-auto. I've owned a couple and have had them go out of service midstream due to broken action bars and a broken link.

If you have more confidence with a semi-auto then good for you. But I don't agree that the ONLY gun to have is a semi-auto, nor would I insist that it is "MUCH MORE" suitable than other action types. In the larger scheme of things there are far more important considerations that must be made.

That is Smith's point. And it is one that no one should dismiss or overlook.

Jeff White

June 22, 2008, 01:37 PM

Defensory said;

If you're the victim of a home invasion involving three or four perpetrators armed with high capacity semi-auto handguns , a single-shot shotgun is the WRONG tool for the job. You'll almost certainly be killed or at least seriously injured, while attempting to reload.

What kind of lifestyle do you lead that you consider this a real possibility? Are you a drug dealer? Do you keep large amounts of cash and jewelry in your house and everyone knows about it? Have you angered the local members of a criminal organization?

Seriously man, your worst case scenario that calls for maximum firepower is more suited to a movie script then it is to real life. Of all the ways an average person can become a crime victim, home invasion is the least likely to occur.

But lets say that you are a victim of a home invasion where you are facing multiple opponents armed with high capacity semi auto handguns. You are now in the gunfight to end all gunfights. What is the capacity of your extended tube semi auto shotgun? Seven? Eight?

Ever been in a gunfight? Ever even shot a realistic course of fire on the range where you were moving and the targets were moving? Or how about force on force training? Do you have any experience with high stress shooting on the move at multiple moving targets? Have any idea how easy it is to miss at typical in home ranges? So how many of the bad guys are you going to kill with your eight rounds while you are moving and they are moving and you are under fire?

There are several ways a person with training can prevail with a pump, side by side or single shot in your fantasy scenario.

Ever heard of shoot one, load one? Let me tell you my friend, even with your eight round extended tube, you need to shoot one load one or before you get a chance to replay the scenes in the movie The Replacement Killers in your mind, you're going to be wishing for cover so you can reload your extended magazine, semi automatic shotgun.

You fight with your mind. The tools you use are largely irrelevant. Ever hear of a come as you are war? When the fight comes to you, you're going to have to fight with what you have, not what you wish you have. You are handicapping yourself by believing that you can't win unless you are armed with your personal idea of the ultimate weapon. Your mind is the weapon.

Mindset and training wins fights. If I have to pick someone to back me up on a dynamic entry, I'll pick the guy who has the right mindset and training even if he's handicapped with a less then optimal weapon, over the guy who carries the ultimate combat shotgun and things that he's ready to take on all comers because he has it.

Jeff

The_Rambler

June 22, 2008, 02:48 PM

Jeff is correct.

If I had to pick between a guy that had an old, worn 870 or a guy with a brand new Benelli, I would pick they guy with the 870. Why? He knows what he's doing if he put wear marks in it.

Reguardless of what you have, you have to train. No Matter what. No exceptions.

-Nick

Brian Williams

June 22, 2008, 02:49 PM

For me to have anything more than a single shot shotgun would be a problem. I have trained and shot a single shot gun and have not ever fired a large capacity semi-auto shotgun. A semi auto gun would be a detriment to me in a fight. I would be better off with my revolver because I know it. If an extended tube semi-auto shotgun was all I had, It would do my best but I might die. I am not trained in any way to resist a dynamic entry and probably should do so but my schedule and finances prohibit this. I have a nice Win1300 and have fired it some, but the Marlin 1894 and the S&W revolvers I have would serve me better. My mindset and training.

rbernie

June 22, 2008, 03:21 PM

My confidence doesn't come from a gun. It comes from my plan and practice. You take your confidence from hardware. I'll take mine from software. This should be emblazoned at the top of every forum.

Youngster

June 22, 2008, 03:29 PM

An autoloader is my home defence tool of choice. I think they're the most efficent thing going under relatively benign conditions where they'll recieve a lot of care, but if it comes to roughing it any, make mine a pump.

Dirty Bob

June 22, 2008, 05:18 PM

In many HD situations, the defender is allowed to cheat. It's just two of us at home most of the time, so I'm not likely to need to go hunting trouble if someone's in my house or my backyard. I'll call the cops and wait in the most advantageous spot my wife and I can find at the moment.

When some guys tried to kick down my front door (they found out steel doors in steel frames don't kick in like they do on TV), I was waiting in the dark at 90 degrees to the door, at their right if they had come in. I doubt it would have been a scene worthy of an action movie, but I probably would have fired the first shot, before they saw me.

How many bad guys, when they encounter unexpected gunfire from a concealed shooter, are going to charge in anyway?

In many HD situations, I firmly believe that tactics, mindset and skill (gained through practice with the weapon in your hands) are far more important than hardware. Given that belief, I have trouble imagining a situation in which I need more than a 12 ga. or 20 ga. pump.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

seeker_two

June 23, 2008, 01:00 PM

If you're the victim of a home invasion involving three or four perpetrators armed with high capacity semi-auto handguns , a single-shot shotgun is the WRONG tool for the job. You'll almost certainly be killed or at least seriously injured, while attempting to reload.

Short of having multiple claymores mounted around your position, you'll be pretty much screwed with ANY firearm in this situation.....

Besides, after the first invader is shot, the determination of those following will fall dramatically.... (unless you're the target of an active jihad.....if so, see paragraph above...)

With practice, I can run my coach gun fast enough to keep up with my BIL's pump gun. And, while he's a better wing-shooter, I can hit the big stuff on legs just a little faster....and without that embarassing "short-stroking" problem.... :cool:

Dance most with the gal you brought to the party, and practice dancin' often.... :D

TAB

June 23, 2008, 01:52 PM

Chances are pretty good that if you have 3 or 4 armed attackers coming after you, your dead anyways. Does not matter if your armed with a single shot or belt fed machine gun.

June 23, 2008, 04:00 PM

Dave Williams wrote:
Benelli tactical semi auto shotguns are awesome guns! Benelli tactical semi auto shotguns are pieces of crap!

This is true of any firearm, mfg, platform or ammunition.

Dave, thank you for a great post as always.
Folks, the reality is, anything can and will break, and everything has pros and cons.

It is the user of a tool that makes that tool effective, not the tool itself.

There is no one-size-fits all, no ultimate, no holy grail, on anything.
What "fits" one for task, may not fit another for task.

i.e. I tried to get a Armored Car Company to let the folks in the car use a full stock shotgun, I really did.
I demonstrated with the decision makers of the Armored Co., in a live fire demo, using various full stocked shotguns, especially the issued 870 pump , which they issued with PGO.

I shot 870s, 1300s, SX1s, Beretta 303, Browning B-80...man I really tried to get my point across how I understood PGO was issued, and the reasons, strategies and tactics, still in the vehicle, where there is a person always, a full stocked shotgun being fired through ports had some advantages.

No.
I tried, oh I tried, still the decision was no.
I still used a full stock to teach and instruct, before transitioning to the issued
PGO.
I finally harped enough to get some .410s fixed up PGO.
I take this stuff serious, and I wanted correct basics instilled, and my call to use baby steps.
This all paid off.

I don't care what some might say my methods, some of these folks were former LEO and Military and honest to goodness appreciated my concerns for their safety and taking it one step at a time, to get the basics down.
Less felt recoil from a .410 PGO allows good habits to be instilled.
Shooting from inside a vehicle, with ports, is not as easy as it sounds.

Jeff White wrote:
What kind of lifestyle do you lead that you consider this a real possibility? Are you a drug dealer? Do you keep large amounts of cash and jewelry in your house and everyone knows about it? Have you angered the local members of a criminal organization?

Some folks not in LE, or Military, just regular folks are hi-risk.
Retired LEOs, Correction Officers and even some Military folks, such as MP, still have enemies, that do not wish them good health.

I was brought up in a hi-risk industry.
I have never been a LEO or served in the Military.

There are those regular citizens, that are in a higher risk settings.
"Gun" is not the first thing they are taught.

ADEE is best, and the gun, in this case a shotgun ,is only one tool in the tool box of staying safe.

Multiple bad guys?
Yep, I have been there and done that.
Not all were inside a structure, some were outdoors b/t structures, and some situations involved moving vehicles going down the road.

I cannot go around with a long gun, slung.
Neither can others in a higher risk setting.

My take is, one of the worst things one can do is impede the ability to free think, think out of the box, improvise, adapt, overcome by fixating on "gun" and especially one particular make, model , gauge, set up and ammo.

Blind faith will get one hurt or dead.

-Going down the highway, with 3 cars, six bad guys, how am I supposed employ a Benelli doing 70 miles an hour?
They are shooting guns, and bumping into the car?

-Three folks enter the front of a structure, shooting guns, and busting up glass with tire tools.
I honestly chose to get the 8 month old pregnant employee out the hidden exit to safety.
We had not been noticed yet.
I could not safely save the others up front, practiced plans, they knew, it was understood what to do.

I get the pregnant lady to safety ( business next door) call Police Direct, and snag a Model 94 in 30-30 to stay on the phone and observe and report.

I do not regret my decision.
Mdse was insured, employees had training in all this, and yes...there were guns accessible.
Mdse was given up, nobody got hurt, and criminals left.
Employees tied / cuffed.

Hi Risk and practiced plans, and understood.

Oh since some will ask, S&W K frames, most were Model 10s, some 64s, and the loading was standard pressure 158 LSWC , were scattered and/or were CCW-ed by employees.
Shotguns, were 1100 in 20 ga.

Employees shot a lot of guns and these platforms were two I knew from years of experience already fit folks.
Employees got to shoot to see what fit them, and all agreed so we bought these, and plenty of ammo, and let some LEOs and Military folks give private lessons.
Body Guards gave other lessons, and some Undercover cops gave even more.

They had private places to go shoot, and as often as they wanted, and the boss man picked up the tab for ammo, guns, - everything!

There is no start button in life when the situation gets serious.
One does not get to fiddle fart with gun, eyes , ears and for sure go check out the stage.

That .44 mag going off towards the ceiling, the tire tools breaking glass and criminals shouting , is your start button.

What are you going to do?
Right now!
With what you have, or don't have?

I cannot carry a long gun slung out to eat in a restaurant either.
I started tossing napkin dispensers, glass pitchers of beer and all the while moving, scooting, going under tables, over chairs and gaining distance to an exit.

Practiced plans, lady partner heads for the exit, I give cover tossing stuff.
Beats a shoot out in a joint where normal patrons get caught in a cross fire...
Back door is clear, she runs to vehicle, I use trash cans and all to block door and scan, she drives up, I jump in and we take off!

Legitimate business, just if they get me, or her, or...they get stuff.
Stuff is insured.
Problem is, some folks hurt folks, or worse, once the mdse is given up.
Not to mention hurting folks, or worse because of information we have about others.

I and mine did a lot of lessons with no gun, or knife, but dealing with stuff.
One cannot always have a gun or knife, so one is best to not learn on a crutch , some basic fundamentals about staying safe.

RioShooter

June 23, 2008, 06:43 PM

The best reload is another gun--so there is an AK(and plenty of loaded magazines) sitting right next to that shotgun.

That's also my strategy. I keep a Mossberg 500 next to the bed, and as a fall-back position, an SKS in the Master bath.

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.

I bought my Mossberg at a pawn shop for $125 and my SKS from SOG for $180. That should fit into most budgets.

squinty

June 23, 2008, 08:01 PM

The gun you got"

I saw a clip on guntalktv.com with Mr. Smith discussing Autopistol vs. revolver for SD...somewhere along the way he said something very similar: "If I have a revolver I'll defend myself with a revolver, If I have an Auto I'll defend myself with an Auto, it's about getting comfortable defending yourself with what you got."

Or something like that, I've liked His work ever since,

My $0.02

RFB

And if all I have is a baseball bat or a claw hammer, or my teeth and fingernails for that matter, I'll defend myself with those - but I'd much rather have my 870 Marine Magnum, and I'm glad I have it.

That said, if someone pointed any kind of scattergun in my direction I would get really worried about my health, regardless of the type of action - I don't want to be shot with a single shot, pump, over under, side by side, semiauto or any other kind of shotgun, and neither will any sort of bad guys who come into your home.

TAB

June 24, 2008, 12:12 AM

posted in wrong thread... too many windows open...

Wheeler44

June 24, 2008, 01:30 AM

Defensory, we have discussed this issue in several threads on several sub-forums here at the high road. Read the words these folks have written. I assure you that they know of what they speak.
I can assure you that I can empty a box of ammo through a Win. 97, an Ithaca 37, a Stevens 520 as fast as any non-demonstration shooter can shoot a box through an auto.
And I'm not that good. I know folks that could do it with a single or SxS.

Autoloader shotguns and high-cap wondernines and AR clones are great, especially for training up large groups to the quickest "minimum" proficiency.
Are they the best for everybody? I will let the fact that many here and others that I know (and trust with the life of my family) haven't thrown out their useless and self endangering pumps, side by sides and breaktops out just because YOU think they suck.

I won't have a fancy auto at my next gunfight, so I guess I'd better practice more with my pump.

Oh, and a side note , my favorite "new" shotgun is a $50.00 Stevens 520, double whaleback w/ a suicide safety. The inertia block is defective. I have to hit the slide release before I rack the pump. Thing is I do it subconsciously. Don't even remember doin' it , ya see it really is the "software" and not the "hardware".

357wheelgunner

June 24, 2008, 06:51 PM

In the event of a home invasion involving multiple armed perpetrators, you'll wish you had practiced that "takticul high speed stuff". It could be the difference between life and death for a gun owner and their family. I take my self-defense seriously. Sorry to see you don't.

I almost spit root beer out of my nose laughing at this.

The statistical likelihood of me being engaged in the taktikul gun forum guys wet dream SHTF situation is next to nonexistent. I practice enough to do what needs doing, and nothing else. You can continue to practice being Delta Force or space shuttle door gunner, I have other things to do.

Then I spit it out of my mouth instead when I read this. Awesome quote.

If you're the victim of a home invasion involving three or four perpetrators armed with high capacity semi-auto handguns , a single-shot shotgun is the WRONG tool for the job. You'll almost certainly be killed or at least seriously injured, while attempting to reload.
Oh, but the type of firearm DOES make a MAJOR difference. All other things being equal, a person with a semi-auto will fare FAR BETTER in a situation involving multiple armed perps.

No "pet theory" to it. In a home invasion situation involving multiple armed perpetrators, a high capacity semi-automatic shotgun is clearly superior to a single shot or double barrel, whether the shooter is a novice or an expert.

live in a tri-level. If three armed perps carrying semi-auto handguns entered through the front door, there would be NO escape if I were on either of the top two levels of the house.

There would be NO way to out-flank them. I would HAVE to fight. I would be dead for sure if I had a single shot. With a high-capacity semi-auto, I'd have a CONSIDERABLY better chance of surviving.

The perps aren't going to pause while you reload a single shot, and to take out three perps you'd have to reload at least twice. And that's assuming NO misses, which is a rarity in a shootout situation.

The perps aren't going to just stand there when you raise that single shot, they'll be shooting and diving for cover. A single shot would be a death sentence. Having to break the gun open , insert a shell, close it up, aim and fire---all under extreme stress while being fired upon by multiple perps---means you're going to be a dead man.

You don't know what a "perp" will do. Bad situations are as dynamic as anything, the worst thing you can do is assume that you know what you are talking about. Just prepare the best you can, and take things as they come with a cool head. Most of your fantasies would most likely end in real life after the first round is fired in self defense.

Edited to add:

In all seriousness, I wanted to compliment you on your ability to remain calm when so many are discussing this pushing as many buttons as possible. Internet debates are fun until people get too serious. I prefer sarcasm to rage, I hope this thread continues this way.

My confidence doesn't come from a gun. It comes from my plan and practice. You take your confidence from hardware. I'll take mine from software.

Best line in the thread.

This makes me think of the 300 lb guys at gunshows wearing bdus with mag pouches, Asp batons, pepper spray, etc hanging off of their belt while they talk about the latest uber tacticool techniques that make them feel tough. In reality I suspect most of their pants would fall down if they tried to move in a situation, and I'm guessing that they wouldn't hit anything even though they carry 90000 reloads so they can fire and miss for 30 minutes until lthe police arrive.

I used to carry a full sized Glock, and shoot black rifles. Then I realized that I was compensating for my own lack of training, and trying to be badass and tactical. Then I turned 22 and grew up a notch. I sold all of my black pistols and rifles. Now my pistols are blued or stainless steel, and my shotguns have pumps. None require magazines.

I carry 4" barreled 6 shooters IWB. I can fire them fast, under stress, wearing winter coats or a swimsuit, sweating or freezing, at long range or short range, and I can hit just about every single time in every single situation. I can fire a K-frame in single or double action, sitting or standing, with a right or left or both hands, upside down and sideways, around corners and above and below cover. It reloads slowly so I know to make my rounds count. I keep a Remington 870 with a wooden stock in the bedroom. I've fired thousands of rounds of slugs and buckshot through it, it feels like an extra limb when I shoulder it. I know that I can hit with it out past 100 yards with a low recoil slug if I have time to aim. I know that at close range I can fire all 8 rounds faster than I can count to 8, and hit 8 seperate targets. I know that I can fire it left handed, upside down, and sideways. I know that it takes me too long to reload with it, so make my shots count. The similarties are training and making rounds count due to fewer of them and slow reloading.

I carry "outdated" guns, but I've done my part; If God is with me if the poo ever hits the fan, I might be fine. If I die I'll do so knowing I did my best.

Some peope try to compensate with stuff.

Dave Williams

June 24, 2008, 08:35 PM

"I carry 4" barreled 6 shooters IWB. I can fire them fast, under stress, wearing winter coats or a swimsuit, sweating or freezing, at long range or short range, and I can hit just about every single time in every single situation. I can fire a K-frame in single or double action, sitting or standing, with a right or left or both hands, upside down and sideways, around corners and above and below cover. It reloads slowly so I know to make my rounds count. I keep a Remington 870 with a wooden stock in the bedroom. I've fired thousands of rounds of slugs and buckshot through it, it feels like an extra limb when I shoulder it. I know that I can hit with it out past 100 yards with a low recoil slug if I have time to aim. I know that at close range I can fire all 8 rounds faster than I can count to 8, and hit 8 seperate targets. I know that I can fire it left handed, upside down, and sideways. I know that it takes me too long to reload with it, so make my shots count. The similarties are training and making rounds count due to fewer of them and slow reloading."

357wheelgunner

June 24, 2008, 09:07 PM

Thanks!

Old Guy

June 24, 2008, 11:25 PM

Why would you have a shotgun, of any kind in your bedroom? But if you had one, an 870 works fine.

Shooting a s/g on a range, with ear muffs, and shooting glasses is not the same as firing one in an enclosed space, not for you, the shooter, and absolutely not for a group of home invaders at the bottom of the stairs!

The group in the front of that muzzle blast, and flame... would in all probability flee big time! And if you hit one of the group from less the 7m, away, the wet slap of 9 x double OO buckshot pellets impacting on the individual standing next to you (you as a home invader) leaving at hi speed is a natural self survival instinct.

A shotgun is the least survivable weapon, common street weapon, out there, you normally die if shot in the body, at close range pieces are blown off the human body!

In the second world war troops using/carrying street sweepers were shot out of hand. Me? 9mm Glock19, 16 rounds of 127g +P+, on me awake, next to me asleep.

June 25, 2008, 09:18 AM

Duty to retreat in some jurisdictions, so a shotgun in the bedroom makes sense.

I go way back assisting ladies, single moms, elderly and physically limited.

Take a under age 21 female, being stalked , maybe has been beaten by a boyfriend, and the restraining order is not going to stop a threat.

I can get a gal up to speed in short order with a single shot shotgun.
We do all the preventative stuff, even get another lady to stay with them, even one 21 years and older with a CCW.

Still, they can have a gun, retreat, do all the things as shared, with practiced plans and legal and if the threat continues to busting down the bedroom door...

The other gun is the medium frame revolver, such as the police trade ins, Model 10s for example.

This gun I/we can get a person up to speed fast with too, and this allows the under age 21 person to have a gun in the home, on person such as answering the door, or handy when in the kitchen, ironing clothes, in the bathroom or in bed.

I grew up doing this with Mentors, just what we did, and I still do.

Re: Multiple persons.

Based on true events, I have first hand experience with -

Take a 19 year old gal, that leaves home, even 2 hours from home and family to attend college in a bigger city.
Some guy starts pestering her, and it escalates.
She does not want a boy friend in the bigger city, she sorta has one back home.
He stalks, leaves hang up messages at her part time job, even her apt.

She gets a restraining order.

Now the jerk gets his GF , sister, and/or another girl to try to talk this 19 year old into dropping it.

It is not uncommon for both guys and girls to take sides of the one the restraining order was filed against.
It can even be the fella's real girl friend that is the one to really be careful of.
He tells GF the 19 year gal is the one "wrong" and the GF will go after the 19 year old.

You can have six folks easy all ticked off and mad and after this 19 year old.
19 year old's car gets tires slashed, investigated and the fella was in class at the time of the incident.
His GF, or one of his guy,or gal buds slashed the tires.
He is covered, by being in class and did not break the RO.

Folks get weired out when a RO is filed, and they get even more weirded out as time goes on sometimes.

They are not always dumb either.
Take a Thunderstorm, and power is flickering and all they have to do is hit the switch out back of the apt and shut off lights, and phone.
It seems "normal" and now we have a 19 y/o girl, in the dark with a half dozen folks that want revenge or whatever for filing a RO on that guy.

At the time, she had a duty to retreat according to law.
Now she would not.
Still we did the legal and everything else and her place had been beefed up, and she had practiced plans.
She had lessons on using the guns.
She retreated as we said for her to do.

No phones, no cell phones back then.
Compressed air horn, as one can buy in the marine dept, is what she had multiples of, scattered in her apt - in the event her phones went out ( switch on back of apt complex with apt number) or due to power outtage storms caused.

Two trusted neighbors, were instructed and advised on all this.
19 year old hit that Air horn when her patio window was busted out and she was behind cover, with both guns, and could not retreat any more.

Neighbor heard the horn, and one called police direct, the other stayed inside, but observed and reported to fire dept ( station just up the street).
FD arrived first...Police a minute later.

Youths had run at the sound of that air horn.
Observe and report on make , model of vehicles, finger prints on glass and the case went from there.

So in essence a single shot shotgun and Model 10 , took on 7 persons that late afternoon, getting near dark.
It was dark when the patio window was busted.

It was the fella's real GF that became totally nutzoid, angry and vindictive.

Old Guy

June 25, 2008, 11:17 AM

Good planning, using what she had, and simple weapons (with training!) saved the day.

I am firmly convinced half the world is mental!

SN13

June 25, 2008, 11:34 AM

I've used Rem 870s in the past. I own a Saiga-12 w/3x10rd mags and 1 5rd mag and a cheap O/U for trap.

I would feel confident with any of the three for defending my home.

The 19" mag fed saiga is more compact, lighter and recoils less than the other two, the 870 was a hoot to shoot, and my 30" barreled O/U is accurate and reliable but I'd hate to turn in some of my halls with it.

If I had to pick ONE? I'd deffinitely pick my Saiga. I can have 35rds ready to go.

How long of a Tube do you need to have 10rds? 24"? I can have 10rds in an 8" gun if i wanted too. Mag fed SA shotguns really shine with shorter barrels.

RancidSumo

June 25, 2008, 12:05 PM

My HD shotgun is an old Ithica M37 and I am far more confident in it working then I am in some new super fancy semi auto. Thats not to say that I don't want a semi auto because I do but the Ithica would still be my go to shotgun. I have fired hundreds of rounds through it, my dad has fired thousands before he gave it to me, and my grandpa fired thousands before he gave it to my dad. I don't know about my grandpa but neither I nor my dad have ever had a malfunction with it and with the plug pulled, it hold plenty of rounds and I can get them all off pretty damn quick.

Back to the video, I thought that all SxS had auto ejectors. My AYA throws the shells several feet behind me and only ejects the spent ones so I can open it beack up and reload a single shot if I need to.

June 25, 2008, 12:13 PM

I am firmly convinced half the world is mental!

And the other half is about half crazy. *wink*

Seriously, this is how I was raised, and mentored.
I was born in 1955.
There were no known gun schools back in the day.
LEOs and Military folks had training schools if you will.

Civilians did not have "official" schools
Firearms, were not complicated, even for Cops.

City cops were issued S&W Model 10s and Win Model 12, or Ithaca 37 with full wood stocks, short bbls, and 00 buck.

State Boys had Model 19s, same shotguns.
Sheriff had both Model 10 or 19s, same shotguns.

Heck the loading was 38spl, for all except for a few of the Sheriff and State Boys, that worked remote areas.

Civilians were mentored by others with whatever gun they had.
Hardware Store Guns if you will for many.

Not everyone could afford a S&W or a Colt like some Dept in areas were issued.

H&R, Iver Johnson and Hi Standard handguns from .22 rim-fire, 32 cal and .38spl.
Were common, as cops and judges suggested folks carry - no "gun permit" back in the day.

The home gun?
Most homes had a single shot shotgun with the youth size 20 ga being real popular.
Anyone in the home could use it, from smaller person to adult.
I mean a kid , teenager, grandma, anyone might have to step out back and take care of a threat, like a rabid raccoon or dawg.

So we did lessons, with the guns folks had.
WE went to homes, boarding houses, duplexes and wherever else folks lived and checked it out.

Made sketches and worked on better locks ( not a lot to choose from back then) better lighting and whatever we could to deter, and prevent.

Neighbors knew each other, so practiced plans on keeping tabs and using code word and all.

Set ups, were what one would stages today.

It might outdoors, or one of the indoor places we had, ( shoot house today), still Widow Jones' little house was replicated with layout, boxes, and odd furniture and practiced plans for her.

Take the War Veteran that lost a leg and used a wheelchair, and got down sick and spent time bedridden from surgery.
Well he and his wife had practiced plans, including shooting from reclined bed, wheel chair and all.

One of the handiest tools for staying safe was a - door stop.

WE did not have dead bolts back then, but a door stop would keep a door from coming open.

The guns were just part of the tool box, and it made no darn difference what kind of gun.
Just folks learned the guns they had, and were good with them.

ADEE was what we were doing back in the day.

Widow Jones for instance.
Her neighbors and family knew she lived alone. They kept mouths shut, and everyone kept tabs on one another.

She still hung out his britches and work shirt on the line.
If you walked into the house, his pipe, tobacco and other items were still out.
It looked the old boy was at work at the plant , or had run off to town, but that women was not living alone.

She set out two plates or 3, or 4 so around supper time, it looked like she was waiting for her husband and company to show up.

Traveling salesman, for instance, never knew she lived alone.
She had her pistol on her all the time, and .410 single shot and .22 rifle handy.
She liked these, could handle these, so she did all her "set ups" with these.

"Oh I need for you to come back later, I have to attend to something now" she would tell a door to door salesman.

I have pretended to be her grandson, or another lady her daughter, or one of the guys her husband, son or brother.
Just how we did things.

There were "codes", like wash on a line.
Take the chain gangs working the area, and if she was out at the clothes line, and trouble showed up, and pulled that certain "towel" off the line, it meant trouble.

Just a old towel for cleaning, still if neighbor looked out, and that towel was gone, the Sheriff was called and other neighbors too.

No 911 back then, no cell phones , so practiced plans to check on Widow Jones.

So lessons, and "set ups" on going to check on Widow Jones, in morning, noon , night or wee hours.

Who knew how fast a Sheriff Deputy might show up, he might be off on the far end of the county area he patrolled.
It was up to us, to stay safe.

It made no difference on make, model , brand name, caliber, gauge, ammo type, folks just knew their guns.

Widow Jones ( not her real name) was sweet gal.
She had 4 boys get loose from a chain gang one day.
She called her neighbor to call Sheriff.

All 4 boys sitting next to house by the water hose, all lined up.
She let them have water, while they sat for the Sheriff and Correction folks.
Just a old widow with a .410 single shot, and her pistol in apron with more .410 slugs.

She never said she had a pistol, just that sweet gal had this look when she meant business and she meant it when said "sit down", with that single shot .410 in hand.
Just low ready, muzzle safe, but they knew that gal knew how to use the 4 youths said by the way she handled that gun and herself.

Once the boys were all secured, she invited Sheriff and Correction folks back for cookies.

Dang her, she was something else.
Deer got her flowers and she shot that sucker with a .410, called a neighbor to come fetch it and butcher it.
"I'll cook some up, just I gotta finish my house cleaning and laundry first".

Shotguns are just one tool in the tool box, just like any firearm is.

The Great Equipment Race all of a sudden decided to change what has always worked.

Blakenzy

June 25, 2008, 12:16 PM

What's all the fuss with single shots and sxs? I find it really hard to believe that someone who buys Clint Smith training cannot afford a good pump shotgun. In fact, I think that it's alot harder to find a good 18inch single shot with a butcuff than a good 18in pump action.

June 25, 2008, 12:38 PM

We have an aging society, not everyone can effectively handle a repeating shotgun.

Some undergo hip, knee, shoulder, surgeries, even hernia operations and the like make it difficult to hold a heavier gun, such as holding one while dialing a phone.

Arthritis affects ROM ( range of motion), as does back problems and other factors.

--

Some we do things with are college kids, away from home.
So a single shot for instance is a handy , affordable tool , they can use for not only home use, or going out to shoot clays, or small game hunt, also while traveling to and from home and college.

Just a single shot shotgun, not menacing or threatening, not expensive.
Still if 20 year old daughter has a flat tire, that gun in the trunk is handy and easy to load or unload.
If she gets caught out, and has to stay at a hotel, in a garment bag she can tote that single shot in to her hotel room.

With a group of trusted , like kind gals, taking a trip, again the single shots are easy to tote and have in traveling, and staying in a hotel or cabin some family has and the gals are given permission to use.

Pretty much "politically correct" and "jurisdiction" friendly.

Awerbuck travels with a two barrel shotgun for the same reasons.

Actually quite a few trainers and instructors do, I have learned over the years.

I would not want to tangle with 4 gals, with single shot shotguns in a family cabin, all under legal age to conceal carry.

All 4 have the H&R Youth 20 ga single shot, with fixed modified choke.
I have the same gun handy.

Just 4 of the gals I have assisted with, over the years.
Parents wanted input, I was hollered at, and I assisted these gals.

Parents chipped in and got a single stage MEC Reloader, so the gals could reload target loads, for practice.
They learned to shoot skeet, with repeating guns, and other defensive lessons with repeating guns, like Beretta 303, 390, Rem 1100 , 870 and 1300.

Still, they became one with a single shot, had a lot of fun, and the parents, themselves , nor I ever worried about them.
They shot clays, went dove hunting, rabbit and squirrel hunting with these, and had a good time.
They really liked dove hunting, and did really really well!

Some underage do have nice guns , and shotguns at home, just away at college, these single shots work out real well.

Great gifts for a HS grad, or someone heading off to college, these single shots are.
Even for someone old enough for CCW and takes a handgun with them.

buzz_knox

June 25, 2008, 12:49 PM

I find it really hard to believe that someone who buys Clint Smith training cannot afford a good pump shotgun.

Not everyone who can afford one wants one. A double barrel is a universal gun: pretty much anywhere in the US that a firearm is allowed, a double barrel will be legal. The same can't be said for some autoloaders or even pumps witha reasonable capacity. If that's the case, or if you carry a double barrel as a car gun for that reason (as at least one shotgun guru does), then training with it makes sense.

June 25, 2008, 02:03 PM

One of the qualities I like about a quality instructors such as Clint Smith, Awerbuck, Givens and others is, they are just as comfortable with a student showing up with Single Shot, Two barrel shotgun, lever action or revolver.

[Set aside particular classes if you will]

They want a student to be one with the gun, no matter what make, model , platform, caliber or gauge.

Re: Gun Control & Single Shot, Two Barrel guns.

I was born in '55 and in the 3 rd grade when JFK was shot in Dallas.
Now my Mentors included those that had been abroad and were familiar with gun restrictions in other countries.

i.e. Citizens could NOT have the same guns nor calibers/ gauges as the Police or Military.

So concerns had always been "if the USA ever imposes such restrictions, what to prepare for".

In '55 that would mean no .38spl, 9mm, 45ACP, 12 ga, ...right off the bat.
The Cops and Military used these calibers and gauges.
Citizens are going to have to find others to use...if restrictions were imposed.

JFK was shot in '63, and concerns got more serious.
Gun Control Act of '68, really heated up concerns.

What if the restrictions include Repeating Shotguns?

Remember, we did not have 911, or Migratory Waterfowl Regs to use non-toxic shot.
We had Model 12, Ithaca 37, 870, J.C Higgins,... and none of this extended mag, side saddle stuff.

These were working guns! Duck and deer hunting, small game, bird hunting and general purpose guns.
Some guns were bought on Lay-a-way, some used the Winchester Buyers Program.

Folks did not go out and just a shotgun, any gun. They had a few of what they needed and that was it!
One shotgun did everything from clay target, putting meat on the table and defending the home.

Now with GCA '68, and the questions of restrictions, and interpretations of restrictions, repeating guns, shotguns, lever action and even semi-auto and revolvers were in question.

Single shot shotguns, Double barrel shotguns, and single shot rifles in .22 and other caliber were bought.

Oh I remember very well these single shot shotguns and .22 rifles being put into 55 gal drums and hoarded back, I was there assisting Mentors and others putting these back.

Re: Semi-Auto.

Go read some current legislations and some not only refer to "Semi-Auto Shotguns" , some actually list Remington 1100.

Good grief!
Do you folks realize how many bone stock, factory 1100s are used for Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clays, alone?
1100 comes in 12, 20, 28 and .410 and is used for all 4 events in Skeet.

Now add these same bone stock 1100s used for bird hunting, duck hunting, deer , small game, and just having a shotgun in the event the person has an invite to go shoot - whatever, maybe clays, or rabbits, or tin cans off a fence.

A LOT of folks went to 20 ga for their gauge of choice back in the day, to hedge against 12 ga restrictions.
Ducks were felled, so were geese, and deer.

Many went to Double barrel guns, like 311s, , to hedge against restrictions as well.

You cannot find a good used 20 ga SxS or O/U - often.
Try talking someone out of a SKB O/U 20 ga with both barrels being fixed skeet choke- they are not letting go of it.

Another little secret was the 28 ga and it using slugs.
.550 ( 28ga) is not far off from .54 caliber, which history will share has been quite effective against enemies, Deer, Elk, Bison, and the like.

A new Benelli Semi-Auto is how much? $1200 ?

What if gun restrictions re-interpret "semi-auto" including shotguns?

Set aside 12 gauge being restricted as LE, and Miltary uses this gauge.
Set aside restrictions on how many rounds, like even as little as 3, as that all person is allowed to hunt Waterfowl with, most gun clubs do not allow more that 3, actually 2 shots on targets and ..

-How many Pump guns, can one buy for $1200
-How many Double barrels?
-Single shots?

If the Restrictions include "Repeating"

-How many Double barrel or Single shots?

I need to know how to run the gun I have - Clint Smith.

I rest my case.

Steve

riverdog

June 25, 2008, 03:01 PM

Stress is an interesting thing. When it strikes we usually fall back to muscle memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory) or a minimal training level to get through. Repetition is a good thing so shooting clay games is good because it's very repetitious, but it isn't particularly stressful, you have all day to load two rounds and most of the time you just stand around holding the gun muzzle down with an open action -- not stressful.

That said, Clay game fields are much more common than tactical houses, so it's practice that is readily available. Training at Thunder Ranch would be great but it's not very convenient or cost effective. Even with a TR shotgun course in your resume', without regular training those skills will degrade. So Clay fields seem to be the most likely option for live-fire, and then walk through the motions in your house, think through the likely situations. Where is the best place to set up and avoid a trap.

Jeff White is absolutely correct with "shoot one, load one". You can shoot any gun dry and when you do you're hosed. Even if you decide a Benelli M1 Super 90 is THE gun, keep the magazine topped off as you shoot so that when you do get in a bind the magazine starts out full. The timing of reloads in a real world situation is not necessarily in your control unless you decide up front to reload at every break -- shoot one, load one; shoot two, load two; never let the gun run dry; always load with a round in the chamber. Practice topping off the tube as you continue to scan the field, don't look at the gun, your hand or the ammo pouch. It would be a shame to get caught with an empty gun, but with 00B rounds still available in whatever pouch or attachment you use to carry ammo. How much ammo do you have available? How much do you realistically expect to need?

That topping off thing is right on target, but it's also something that's tough to practice. Nobody practices "shoot one, load one" on a Clay field; there it's load one, shoot one, open action and stand around -- not exactly perfect practice. I need to find a shooting partner with the right mind-set so that when shooting Skeet we can modify to shoot all doubles, maybe load two, shoot two, load two, shoot two -- time the reload), then switch. Hmmm

June 25, 2008, 04:14 PM

A Skeet field has always been a training tool for me, and those I assist with in shotgun use, including defensive use.

They learn safety, gun fit (both for clay/hunting, and defensive) how to run the gun and other correct basic fundamentals.

Some may have shot skeet, or do shoot skeet, some never have, but the skeet field is one training tool.

Forget "registered targets" and these flying through the "reg loop", forget standing on the station pads.

We don't call for birds.

Stand facing low 8, with a 4" disc that will scream out at your nose at 55 mph.

We did not know about Tueller drills back in the day, nor 1.5 seconds, or 21 steps, we just knew we had to learn our safe distance from a threat.

Low 8 is cranked down to fly more flat, student is back further than low 8 station pad, and without a warning, here comes that 4" disc at 55 mph at their nose.

I was taught to shoot from low gun, and teach to shoot from low gun.
Nobody goes around with a pre mounted gun out hunting when a bird flushes, or a rabbit, and for sure no one is going to going about the house with one pre mounted.

Correct basic fundamentals , like mounting gun to face, smooth, but quick.
Safety is paramount with a student, and they know I and mine mean to keep them safe.
I am right there beside them with practiced plan to pull them "off the line".
We even use a "safety rope" when more than one is assisting, If I am not fast enough, the other person assisting will "pull off the line".

We stand there without a shotgun, to let the student see what to expect, off the line of flight, we pull/ let them pull, and starting way back, walk up.

The brain remembers, and inputs all this into its human computer.
In a short time that "fast" target is "not as fast" as the brain and computer have processed all this.

Just one lesson we share, as if a threat breaks down that front door, and is rushing in, with a gun, knife, crowbar, can the person get a quick effective hit??

Now before 5 stand come to be, we tweaked a skeet field, by adding traps, just like a 3 stand.
Heck I had special set up for My Game, with a trap on top of High and Low house.

Now we did things like toss out fire cracker, and even the big ones the Army had.
Or a group shooting into a berm let loose with live gun fire, even full auto.

Set up with string the layout of a house and have a fridge, to be used as cover and one trap be set to throw clays at that fridge...one right after another a clay hitting that fridge and the shooter having to shoot other presentations, not called for.

We set up trip wires, with confetti poppers and one had to shoot and scoot on a skeet field and not trip a wire.

Targets were shot from on the ground, sitting, in chair, with a table, up and over the head (try low 7, an outgoer for practice) , from a recliner, and even bed.

Stationary and moving targets, on a skeet field.
White targets were "no shoot" or "good guys", orange were bad guys.

Orange might be a bad guy running toward a bedroom, or section of a office area...where a child's bedroom was or the secretary might be taken hostage.

We had a tennis ball thrower we used, and this was also used on a skeet field.
It was quite useful, lots of folks practiced shooting a rabid dawg, coming at them, from ground level, porch level ( build a platform) and pick up truck bed.

We just took reality, and adapted a skeet field.

We had lights like police, fire and ambulance, and sirens going, daylight, low light and even dark...
Low light might the only light being a single "lamp" from anther "room".

Sketches from a home or business, line it out, use boxes and use a skeet field.

Dummy shells were used a lot, shoot one, load one...we did this indoors as well doing set ups and lessons.
WE did in real homes, and townhouses.
Lots and lots of single shots were used in such settings.
Just easier to get used to moving, and using cover, and having to manipulate the gun.

Triple checked for safety, we even had one single shot, with the firing pin removed.
A 870 has its firing pin shortened where it could not punch a primer ( it was a training gun, painted baby blue).

Fact is, a lot of folks used a 26" (IC) 28" (Mod) or 30" (Full) fixed choked gun for everything.
That is all they had.
So lessons were using what they had, and we stuck on barrel like they had.
Cops and Military, stuck on a 18"or 20" as they were issued.

So yes, one can use a long barrel gun for defense, it just takes knowing the gun, just knowing how to us a short barrel gun.

Crazy Quail.
I learned to pull this game from the best fella ever on pulling this game.

Serious lessons, I pulled these too.
I admit, I can't do well with my own "pulling" , but I have tripped up some Special Forces, Rangers, SWAT, US Marshalls, FBI, Sheriff Dept, City and State and other folks, and more than once.

The deal was to push it, kick it up a notch or three and put on pressure.
I can pull these quite well.

Then we all assist one another on what went correct, what did not and work it out.

There 5 things one must do in order to shoot a shotgun and make hits.

It does not matter what the target is, one must do these 5 things correctly.
Clays, deer, waterfowl, turkey, small game, 3 gun or more serious.
Stationary or Moving, it does not matter, you have to do these 5 things.

Clint Smith in his video using various platforms, did these 5 correct things.

One builds upon the foundation of correct basic fundamentals.
Yes one learns other correct basic fundamentals, [advanced] and still has to do 5 things correctly - as they learn more skill sets.

Still you cannot do anything without the correct basic fundamentals, and you must do 5 things in order to fell what needs felled.

Can't buy it - gotta earn it! - me