Progressive presses - not for new reloaders?

When I was shopping for a press, every manufacturer I talked to said "If you've never reloaded, don't get a progressive"... why?

to be completely honest, I had cranked the handle on my grandfathers press about 5 times when I was very young, other than that I had zero experience.

I bought a progressive for my first press and have loaded/shot about 1k rounds thus far without issue. why do all the press manufacturers want to steer potential customers away?

why do all the press manufacturers want to steer potential customers away?

In my humble opinion, they want you (us) to buy two presses.

I'm new as well, and I started from scratch with a progressive with no problem at all either.

The progressive can work as a single stage if I want it to, but no single stage press will ever become a progressive... a second purchase will be needed for that.

The idea -- and one that I subscribe to -- is that the reloader should learn every detail of every process before moving on to a progressive.

Having said that, I'm sure there are plenty of people who started with progressives and have not blown themselves up.

some folk might have a little different learning curve. it might also come down to just how mechanically inclined a feller is to begin with. you might even look at what they do for a living, or other hobbies. some guys just have 2 left hands when it comes right down to it.

i also bought a progressive as my first cartridge reloading press. i did reload shotshells when i was about 30, which was 13 years ago now, almost 14, dang.

all my other hobbies have been of very technical nature.

like racing these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81hehK041Zc

that aint no walmart rc car there. that is a titanium, graphite, and carbon fiber clad, 70mph dude. if anyone is wondering, about 1000 to 1500 will get you going with one of those. and another g will put you at the front of the pack.

my work also lends itself to precision electromechanics and robotic automation.

you may have a similar background, or you might just be naturally inclined towards things like that.

ive been reloading for maybe a couple of months now and i have become completely obsessed with manufactering the most precision, accurate, and beautiful ammo i possibly can.

to me its become sorta like man jewelry, and i aint talking about a big clunky nugget ring either.

FlyinB,
That is tight!!!

I used to have an RC10 many many moons ago. Your cars are absolutely crazy!!!! Now that's what I call entertainment.

Cheers...

I used to have an RC10 many many moons ago. Your cars are absolutely crazy!!!! Now that's what I call entertainment.


yup good old team associated

they are still going strong and in fact they now make an rc8 that races against the yellow losi there.

they are bigger, almost 2 feet long and 14-15 pounds.

the engines make anywhere from 2-6 hp at the crank, running on 30-40%nitromethanol. its really fun but ive converted my pit room into a reloading room. (6 cars on the top shelf, all team losi)

Thanks for sharing that, Bryan. I mean, we all have our love of firearms, handloading, hunting and general outdoors life. But sometimes, it's really cool to hear from the crew members you see online all the time post about something other than shooting too. My apologies to the OP for snaking the original post but we are a crew none the less... are we not?

Cheers...

It's because a newbie reloader should first learn exactly what is needed to load a round before venturing off into the wild blue yonder. Once you load a thousand or so on a single stage press you figure out what each of those stages of the progressive press is actually doing.

Familiarity with the process is important.

Myself, I am an automation engineer, motors, controls, robotics, hydraulics, pneumatics, relay logic & PLCs. I understand continuous process production. I also like to tinker and fiddle with stuff. My first press was a Pro-1K from Lee, my second a turret press.

If you have difficulty figuring out why your lawn mower won't start, maybe starting on a single stage or turret is a good idea.

Although, most progressives, you can load one case at a time and do the process like a single stage.

I think it depends on what they are reloading.

A single stage for some one that wants to reload something that is no longer made or is $$$ to buy... Thats a easy sale.

Now what about the guy that is heavy into "action" pistol and is blowing thru 1k+ rounds a month...


"well this model is good for some one just starting out, you can load a thousand rounds in 6 hours"

VS

"this model can reload 500 rounds a hour, but its more complacated"

I don't know about you, but that a no brainer for most people.


its also easier for a beginer to get consistant reloads from a progressive press then a single stage. For the simple reason that once its set up, you don't have to change your dies.

I say no progressive for a newbee.

My reason is that you won't learn the basics and how to reload with one.

Like a baby you have to crawl before you walk, same for reloading.

Learn how to load on a single stage first, then get a progressive but keep the single stage for precision rifle.

I too started on a progressive. And from what I am told, is a difficult model to set up properly. If this is the tough one, then the easy ones must be kindergarten stuff. I did the research, watched a bunch of videos, and read a lot! Then I read some more about reloading. When I go done with that I did it all again. Then I got some equipment and set it up. A few hours after the package arrived, I had a small pile of very nicely assembled, ready to shoot cartridges. After a run to the range to see what my guns liked the best, it was back home. That was 2 months ago, and 10,000 rounds ago as well. I have not had a single squib, or misfire. Every time the hammer drops, it goes bang with the right force and action. I see no problems starting on a progressive for large volume straight wall pistol. Rifle and bottle necks are more of a challenge though. That takes some time and might be best served on a single. I do load some rifle on mine, but I have always been a technical type guy and have no issues with tech manuals or complex systems, so a press was easy. Most are simple to set up for, simple to load and fun to put together. You must be mechanically adept, and go slow until you get the hang of watching all the places you need to watch while stroking the press. It takes an hour or so to load what I usually shoot in a week -300-500 rounds. If you want challenging, start casting. That's another thread though....

I started with a Dillon 650 loading 9mm, 45 ACP, and .223. Then I got a used Rock Chucker for developing loads. Then I got a turret to so all the odds and ends. Now I load every week on the turret, size and trim on the RC, and run the 650 only when I run out of 9mm or 45 ACP.

My 650 has the primer and powder check alarms which might just keep a newbie out of trouble.

Scott

I started with a 650 - no prior reloading experience. I did read several of the loading books and watched the dillon video. Took me about an hour to set it all up and I've got around 5000 rounds on mine (.45) so far.

I'm not mechanically inclined and I didn't have any problems at all.

If I were starting with rifle, that may have been a single stage press - but for cranking out .45 I'm glad I went with the progressive.

I also have the powder check on mine and that's one thing I wouldn't skimp on.

I think people should start out on a single stage. that is just me I loaded on a single stage for 20+ years before getting a Dillon 550B. Right now it is set up for 45acp only. As I load all my rifle on my single stage. If I ever get an ar then I would load for it on the 550B.

I am in no rush to crank out millions of rounds of ammo for my rifles. but the faster the better for my 45acp.

It is easier to screw up with a progressive. If you start with one just be very carefull and very attentive to what is going on.

If you buy a cost effecient single stage it will be a great learning tool and will continue to be usefull when you step up to a progressive.

If you are skilled mechanically & detail oriented you will not have a problem starting with a progressive.

Once more, Walkalong summarizes it well--to which I will add this:

1. A progressive, by definition, has so many processes happening at once that the novice reloader will not develop an in-depth understanding of the steps in reloading for some time.

2. Because of that, it is much easier to have "a mistake" on a progressive--and, as we all know, reloading mistakes can be serious.

Personally, I think the Lee Turrets are the ideal press to start with--either version, standard or classic cast, can be run as a Single Stage, then as an auto-indexing turret capable of loading 200+ rounds per hour.

This design remains useful--it is far better for load development than a progressive--if your volume needs or time constraints lead to moving up.

Jim H.

Start with a single stage or turret. Learn the intricate details of reloading. Have a complete understanding of what you are doing and learn a good back ground on the basics and theory of reloading. Not to mention "SAFETY"...This can only be learned by doing a lot of reading and applying it to reloading on a single stage press (or turret). Besides you will need a single stage press set up next to that ungodly progressive for odd jobs anyway. I have always stood in fear next to someone at the range that bragged that they could load 1000 rounds a minute on their press.

Learn on a single stage until you know what you are doing...Then move up to what you feel you want or need...

I have been using a single stage and a turret press for the last 20 years and have not felt the need to go progressive. In fact I just up graded my single stage. You will use one...

If you are loading pistol ammo then start with a progressive. Reloading is not rocket science and never has been. You are more likely to double charge loading single stage then your are when using an auto-indexing progressive. You can always run one case at a time if you do not understand the explanation of each step in the manual.

If you find reloading difficult or complex you can always get someone else to walk you through it.

I started on a progressive and wouldn't have it any other way.

I am impatient. The first day I got my 550 out of the box I was at the range with 200 rounds. Worked fine.

Reloading is not rocket science and never has been.

But... Aren't we manufacturing miniature rockets of a sort? :)

There's absolutely nothing wrong learning on a progressive. I've taught many people how to reload for the first time, on my Dillon RL550B. Just because it has progressive capabilities doesn't mean that you have to use it in such a manner.

You can always use the progressive press as a single stage press, working on one station at a time, with all of your cartridges.

Once the newbie is used to working in such a manner, you can then use the progressive press as a turret-style press, loading one cartridge at a time.

Once the newbie is used to this, then he's ready to unleash the true potential of the progressive press. It only takes a couple of sessions, assuming that someone has a reasonably good brain.

Early on, when I was building semi-auto fodder for club-level IPSC-type competition, I jumped from my Lee Turret into a Pro 1000. I got it working well, and I produced a lot of semi-auto (.45 ACP, 10mm, 9mm, and some others) on that press.

I also produced some squibs--and I may have produced a double-charged case at least once. (And once was all it took to blow up a Glock 20.)

Learn the basics first, and learn them well.

Jim H.

If you've never reloaded and want to learn reloading, you start with a single stage.

If you've never reloaded and don't want to learn reloading, you start with a progressive and simply learn how to pull the handle.

Jeff

I have to agree with those against starting out with a progressive press. Good reloading practices takes time to develop and can not be learned in forum or from a book. The reason you read about kaboom and squibs that give reloading a bad reputations is because of poor reloading practices. Some take risks because think it is not important but most just don't know any better. IMO there are three killers to progressive loaders: the quality of the brass, picking the wrong charge for progressive loading, and the lack of discipline to continuously sample powder charges. Nothing stops a progressive press dead in its' tracks faster then a non-spec piece of brass and when this happens the whole sequence gets messed up. Getting the press back into sync is what causes most accidents; the correct way is clear all stations and single step one case through to make sure everything is feeding correctly. The second thing that happens is many progressive reloaders do not work up loads for progressive reloading they take reloads that were developed for single stage consistency and just plug them into the progressive and pull the handle. To get good, safe and consistent loads from a progressive load need to be developed within the standard deviation of your powder measure and to be safe you need to account for mechanical failure so that double charge is impossible. The last thing that gets neglected by many progressive loaders is spot checking your powder dispenses. I have found were a piece of the plastic container that was in the keg and was transfered into the powder measure worked its' way into the rotor and displaced powder by 1.1 grains. Fortunately I check every 25th round so I only had to pull 25 bullets but if I hadn't done a powder check there could have been a lot of under charged rounds that could have stuck a bullet in a barrel. I won't say you can't become a good reloader if start out on a progressive I am saying it's more challenging and I am not talking about the mechanics of the press.

I also started out with a progressive press. I received mine as a surprise gift from my wife, so I didnt have the bennefit of choosing what type to get. I was thrilled to get something that cool from my wife and didnt ask any questions about it, LoL.

I do understand why beginners should start on a single stage though. In fact Im fairly new to this and Im still using my press as a single stage/indexing, Im not using it as a fully progressive yet. I probably would if I shot my 40s&w more. but I mainly shoot rifles and I like to have the control and accuracy that comes with batch loading and single stage.

When I was shopping for a press, every manufacturer I talked to said "If you've never reloaded, don't get a progressive"... why?

Because you need to understand the process.

I bought a progressive for my first press and have loaded/shot about 1k rounds thus far without issue. why do all the press manufacturers want to steer potential customers away?

I'm guessing it came already set up for whatever cartridge you load, right?

If you've never reloaded and want to learn reloading, you start with a single stage.

If you've never reloaded and don't want to learn reloading, you start with a progressive and simply learn how to pull the handle.


I think this quote is pretty accurate - I have a buddy who learned reloading with a progressive as a teenager and he has no concept of working up a load for a rifle. He honestly thought you just look up a recipe and start cranking. He would also substitute components without batting an eye. We shot lots of those rounds growing up :eek: He never did own a powder scale. Calipers? Why do I need those? The point being, he really did not know what he was doing other than putting empties in one side, adding some components and pulling finished product off the other side. I'm currently trying to teach him single stage loading for his .22-250 but I did the load development for him, he really doesn't want know the details he just wants to have some rounds to shoot. Loading to him is more a chore than a hobby.

Obviously everyone's learning curve is different, but I think if you really want to learn the craft of handloading, a single stage and a good book and/or teacher is a better way to start. I also realize that some people just want to load up some rounds and shoot. As long as you can do it safely, that's okay too.

I don't understand why you would invest so much money into something you do not know if you would like or not. you can start with a single stage setup for less than it cost to buy a set of Dillon dies and shell plates. that way you can at least see if reloading is for you or not. You can learn on a progressive just fine, but your safety margin is greatly diminished especially if you do not have an experienced teacher to help you. what I mean is you have the capacity to not only make ammunition faster with a progressive, but it also gives the novice reloader greater capacity to screw up.

Back to the original question: "why do all the press manufacturers want to steer potential customers away?"

What questions did you ask of the manufacturers? They may have just been trying to make an honest judgement of what would be the best for your money and use.

About 25,000 rounds ago I bought a Hornady LNL AP. My goal was to make consistent, inexpensive ammo for action revolver competition at the rate of 1,000 to 1,200 rounds/month. At that rate the gear paid for itself within the first year.

If I had not been shooting that volume the initial cost might have been out of proportion to my need.

As far as personal opinion I feel that if the use merits the initial cost, the progressive can be used for any purpose a single stage can.

If you have the money and know you will want one I think it is fine to buy a progressive,

The problem of too many operations happening at one time is easily solvable, there is no reason you can't load just one piece of brass in the shell holder and run it as a turret press.

Wow - I can't believe some of the posts I'm reading in this thread. I wish I had more time to reply, but since I don't, I'll just say this:

I started loading .45 ACP on a Dillon 650. No, it wasn't completely setup from Dillon, I still had to put it together and get the dies set. Reading the directions isn't that difficult and in fact I'd say Dillon does a VERY good job of explaining how and why things are set the way they are. Since then I've gotten a single stage for working up rifle loads or small batches of other calibers when I don't have all the conversion stuff for the 650.

Like someone said, it's not rocket science. RTFM and you'll be fine. Yes, I did read the ABC's of Reloading before I got the press, but c'mon guys, it's not that hard.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a progressive for the person that wants to shoot in some volume.

I'm guessing it came already set up for whatever cartridge you load, right?
Is there a manufacturer that sells progressive presses set up for a specific cartridge?

Lee loadmaster comes complete with a setup for one caliber of your choice. Includes a case feeder as well. All I added was a factory crimp die.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1212612927.5012=/html/catalog/ldmas.html
These are available at Lee for a premium or discounted at MidwayUSA or other retailers.

Over the last 30 years of reloading I have come to the following conclusion. Reloaders fall into a couple of groups. One is seeking perfection. The perfect round that will drop into the same hole in the target made by the previously fired round.

The other is seeking economy. They shoot lots of ammo in a single, common caliber. They merely want a source of ammo that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, thus detracting from their fun.

For the first, single stage presses seem to be the primary choice. Every case is handled carefully and measured every which way possible. Powder charges are measured granule by granule. Bullets are selected for uniformity and sometimes just beauty.

For the second type of reloader it is often the case that they will just load thousands of rounds of bulk ammo, using once fired brass, and a published load from any one of the many bullet manufacturers (not to mention a recommended load from a buddy). A progressive should not be discouraged for this type of reloader even if an "FNG".

Yes, take the time to learn the process but it isn't exactly rocket science when one is not pushing the envelope.

All that said, I own both. An RCBS RCII and a Dillon XL-650. When I am loading a box of a round that I am experimenting with, the single stage is easy to set up and use. Once I like the load, I set up the Dillon and load 2-3k.

but c'mon guys, it's not that hard.

Then please do explain why us old timers read so often on this forum about double charges and squib loads. Curious minds want to know.

Then please do explain why us old timers read so often on this forum about double charges and squib loads. Curious minds want to know.

how many of them were from "old timers"?

In all my time shooting, I've seen 3 squibs, one was a 22, one was factory and the 3rd was a guy in his 70s shooting a some 257 wild cat( from his range gear I have no doubt he was an "old timer"). I have never seen a double charge.

I've shot in about 50 pistol matchs, about 100 differnt clay games and a few survice rifle matchs.

A progressive should not be discouraged for this type of reloader even if an "FNG".

I agree. I started on a Dillon RL550 back in '86 and am still using it. Saw no reason whatever to start with a single stage press when I already knew I'd end up reloading on a progressive.

If a progressive press is what you want, buy the damned thing and get to reloading. :neener:

double charges and squib loads
Ok - folks not paying attention to detail. Mistakes happen, nobody's perfect. That doesn't mean a new reloader can't be competent with a progressive. In fact, I'd argue that a progressive like the Dillon 650 is actually good for new people because it pretty much prevents double-charges or squibs when used with the powder sensor.

I've loaded 10s of thousands of rounds on mine and never had either. Yet, that was the first press I ever bought.

In fact, I'd argue that a progressive like the Dillon 650 is actually good for new people because it pretty much prevents double-charges or squibs when used with the powder sensor.

You're making a big assumption that they don't have a hiccup/interruption during the process (like an unswagged primer pocket to name just one) and if they do they have the discipline to clear all stages instead of trying to get it back in sync, which most people do.

One thing I notice everyone seems to neglect mentioning is the additional discipline required to safely load on a progressive press that most manuals gloss over. I know a lot of progressive reloaders that just use this process:

Tumble Brass
Dump Brass in Case Feeder
Fill Powder Measure
Load Primers
Check Powder Dispense
Pull Handle
Fill Primers
Pull Handle
Fill Primers
Top Off Powder