CA Open Carry

[bobbarker]

I've looked at all the laws I can find, and from what I can see, it is Legal to open carry while driving your vehicle....and I just wanted to tap in, and make sure on that, so, whoever knows for sure, and responds first (As I'm sure there are a lot of you!) I'd appreciate it. Getting ready to start open carrying, since the #*$!@ Liberals won't let me get a CCW out here. Thank god I'm actually from Michigan and just stationed here. Can't wait to get back home where they love guns!

[Shade00]

Methinks this should be in Legal, where it will likely be moved, and there methinks you will find a swift reply.

[ylapirrynag]

From what I understood reading the laws is open carry is illegal (I don't drive so I didn't pay any attention to any thing had to do with driving).

[Quiet]

Go to www.opencarry.org for information pertaining to open carry.
They have a CA section.

[TAB]

I'm about 99% sure that will get you in trouble.

I beleave the transportation in a locked container rule would apply, could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[Quiet]

I've looked at all the laws I can find, and from what I can see, it is Legal to open carry while driving your vehicle....and I just wanted to tap in, and make sure on that, so, whoever knows for sure, and responds first (As I'm sure there are a lot of you!) I'd appreciate it. Getting ready to start open carrying, since the #*$!@ Liberals won't let me get a CCW out here. Thank god I'm actually from Michigan and just stationed here. Can't wait to get back home where they love guns!
In regards to open carry in CA...

LOADED OPEN CARRY is limited to areas of unincorporated territory where firearms discharge isn’t illegal.

UNLOADED OPEN CARRY (Firearm in belt holster, full magazine in holder on belt) by a law abiding individual is legal anywhere a firearm is not otherwise prohibited by law or by PC 171e definition of a loaded firearm.

You also can not carry an unlocked, unloaded firearm within 1000 feet of a K-12 school. CCW permit holders are exempt from this. So, if you drive around doing unloaded open carry, you can not legally drive within 1000 feet of a school. It's a felony if you get caught doing so.

[loop]

The law in Calif. is very strict. While driving ammo must be locked separate from gun. If you don't have a trunk lock the mag, ammo and gun individually.

Not hearsay, been there, done that.

[Harley Quinn]

Bob, don't open carry in CA. Don't carry concealed either unless you have a permit. :) If you are going to have a firearm in your car have it locked in a proper case.

Ammo should not be within arms reach. :uhoh: I'll say best to keep it in the trunk.

[ArmedBear]

The law in Calif. is very strict. While driving ammo must be locked separate from gun. If you don't have a trunk lock the mag, ammo and gun individually.

Not hearsay, been there, done that.

It's not hearsay, it's bull****.

From the California Highway Patrol website:
California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

When will people who don't know about them, stop posting about California gun laws?!? Every single thread about this stuff has one or more major errors posted by people who claim to know what they're talking about. Please... You're not helping anyone.

[ArmedBear]

It is specifically illegal to carry a loaded firearm in a place where it is not legal to shoot it. "Loaded" means any ammo is chambered or in a magazine, clip, etc. attached to the firearm.

See http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php for the laws.

Section 12031:
12031. (a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
...
(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

Section 12031(g):
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

It is legal to carry a loaded firearm when hunting, and under other limited and specific conditions, even within city limits, if, say, hunting is legal within city limits. However, in general, open carry in a populated area is illegal. See the web site linked above for details.

[The Bushmaster]

In Kalifornia it better be in a container, locked and in the trunk. The ammunition in another box and away from the gun (that is cased, locked and in the trunk)...I just escaped from there...

[ArmedBear]

In Kalifornia it better be in a container, locked and in the trunk. The ammunition in another box and away from the gun (that is cased, locked and in the trunk)...I just escaped from there...

See above...

Please refrain from spreading incorrect information about gun laws in California or anywhere else. It does not help anyone.

[hill billy]

Ammo should not be within arms reach. Can you show me anywhere in the Ca penal code where it says it what distance either the ammo or gun must be from the driver?

This thread is a good treatise on the subject.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=97428&page=2

[edrice]

The Center of Mass In-Car Gun Safe is a good solution to the locked container problem and they are not very expensive at all.

http://www.center-of-mass.com/

Ed

[Harley Quinn]

Originally Posted by Harley Quinn
Ammo should not be within arms reach.

Can you show me anywhere in the Ca penal code where it says it what distance either the ammo or gun must be from the driver?

This thread is a good treatise on the subject.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...t=97428&page=2

I believe others have covered it, the locked case is the best thing going. If no case (locked) it should be in the trunk. If you have a pick-up truck, you could get into trouble if you have not got an area to lock it up in. Glove is not acceptable as a general rule, the LEO in charge might allow it being a pick-up though. Most who have pickups have tool carriers and they usually lock it up in that compartment.

Many times some of the stricter laws are not enforced on people who have good Id and are not criminals, much of the time it is up to the arresting officer and "extenuating circumstances" that get you into trouble.

Never carry ammo in a car (unlocked) as far as I am concerned, unless you have a ccw.

For example, I go to a gun range in Northern CA, their rules are no loaded guns, no ammo in the same carrier with the pistol. That means LEO also, there are several LEO that came into the location who would not heed the rules they are no longer allowed to shoot at the range:what:

You walk in "ccw" and you get one warning, not to carry in the location loaded, next time you are not allowed to shoot there anymore. :uhoh:

One day I watched a guy come in with his revolver in a holster loaded. I caught (saw) him before he got to the desk, told him to unload it or he would not be allowed to shoot. New sign was posted. No loaded guns, that means you!

They are strict. In Sacramento city limits, to buy ammo you have to sign for it, give a thumb print, and have valid photo ID. Strict enough for you:) They photocopy the ID to the sales slip for their records.:(

[ArmedBear]

Never carry ammo in a car (unlocked) as far as I am concerned, unless you have a ccw.

I have never been able to find a law that states this.

For example, I go to a gun range in Northern CA, their rules are no loaded guns, no ammo in the same carrier with the pistol.

That's their safety rule, not the law.

The law includes exceptions to prohibitions against concealed carry as well as carrying a loaded firearm at a shooting range, as well as, with some restrictions, to and from it.

See 12025, 12026.2 and 12031 here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

A business has, and should have, the right to make its own rules for safety. The law and their policies can be totally different.

I'm not advocating doing anything dumb, unsafe or illegal. There's no need to make an example of yourself, either. But again, see the CHP FAQ above.

[hill billy]

Harley Quinn, I understand how you feel. I have a single cab toyota truck with no tool box. A locked case sitting on the passenger seat is legal under the law. There is NO part of the law that states how far from the driver a locked case must be. A guy I know carries loaded magazines in a backpack with guns in locked soft cases in the back seat of his four door pickup. He has been stopped and verified that what he is doing is legal. I know experiences may vary by location but the state law says this is legal.

[edrice]

Harley Quinn, I understand how you feel. I have a single cab toyota truck with no tool box. A locked case sitting on the passenger seat is legal under the law. There is NO part of the law that states how far from the driver a locked case must be. A guy I know carries loaded magazines in a backpack with guns in locked soft cases in the back seat of his four door pickup. He has been stopped and verified that what he is doing is legal. I know experiences may vary by location but the state law says this is legal.


Well, not only that, you could have a four-seat cab, filled with four bodies and anywhere in the cab is within arms length of someone. Arms length wouldn't be driver-specific, giving reaching privileges to passengers and not the driver.

I frequent an indoor shooting range that is also a training range for the poice dept. On those occasions, I use a locking pistol case inside a soft pack and carry the ammo in the same pack. No problems.

Ed

[TAB]

FWIW a locked case also inculdes zippered bags.

[hill billy]

a zippered bag with lock on it. I use these for my "locked case" on all my guns.

[edrice]

Yeah, when I said "locking case" I meant a soft zippered case, but my mind was zoned out.

I also have the Center of Mass metal locking case for continuous transportage and for when I'm not in the Tundra.

Ed

[.38 Special]

As a fellow Californian who is intimately familiar with our laws, I'd recommend you folks listen to Bear when he writes on the subject. I haven't seen him wrong yet.

Of course, the old saw about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar does come to mind...

[Hook686]

Yesterday 08:56 PM

bobbarker wrote:


I've looked at all the laws I can find, and from what I can see, it is Legal to open carry while driving your vehicle....


Bob I urge you caution. You might take a look at page 36 of:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf

CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON
Carrying a Concealed Handgun Without a License on One’s
Person or in a Vehicle
It is illegal for any person to carry a handgun concealed upon his or her person
or concealed in a vehicle without a license issued pursuant to Penal Code Section
12050 [PC section 12025 (a), (b)]. A firearm locked in a motor vehicle’s trunk
or in a locked container carried in the vehicle other than in the utility or glove
compartment is not considered concealed within the meaning of the Penal Code
Section 12025; neither is a firearm carried within a locked container directly to
or from a motor vehicle for any lawful purpose (PC section 12026.1).
A handgun carried openly in a belt holster is not concealed within the meaning
of the above prohibition [PC section 12025 (e)]. Even if carried openly, a handgun
generally may not be loaded [PC section 12031 (a)]. Also, see “Loaded Firearms
in Public.”
The prohibition from carrying a concealed handgun does not apply to licensed
hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or
returning from the hunting expedition (PC section 12027). Notwithstanding this
exception for hunters or fishermen, these individuals may not carry or transport
loaded firearms when going to or from the expedition. The unloaded firearms
should be transported in the trunk of the vehicle or in a locked container other
than the utility or glove compartment (PC section 12026.1).

It seems to me having a loaded firearm on your person without a CCW in an automobile, even while out hunting, or in your vehicle, is bad news in California. I would sure be inclined to rely upon the California Department of Justice before relying upon the opinion of a bear, or .38 special, opinion expressed on the internet. Have you contacted the California DoJ on this matter yet ?

[Hook686]

RE hill billy's use of a zippered bag for meeting the California requirement, I'd exercise caution.

From page 29 of:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf



SAFETY AND STORAGE DEVICES
If you decide to keep a firearm in your home you must consider the issue of
how to store the firearm in a safe and secure manner. California recognizes
the importance of safe storage by requiring that all firearms sold in California
be accompanied by a DOJ-approved firearms safety device or proof that the
purchaser owns a gun safe that meets regulatory standards established by the
Department. The current list of DOJ-approved firearms safety devices and the
gun safe standards can be viewed at the following DOJ website:
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm.
There are a variety of safety and storage devices currently available to the public
in a wide range of prices. Some devices are locking mechanisms designed to keep
the firearm from being loaded or fired, but don’t prevent the firearm from being
handled or stolen. There are also locking storage containers that hold the firearm
out of sight. For maximum safety you should use both a firearm safety device and
a locking storage container to store your unloaded firearm.
Two of the most common locking mechanisms are trigger locks and cable locks.
Trigger locks are typically two-piece devices that fit around the trigger and trigger
guard to prevent access to the trigger. One side has a post that fits into a hole
in the other side. They are locked by a key or combination locking mechanism.
Cable locks typically work by looping a strong steel cable through the action of
the firearm to block the firearm’s operation and prevent accidental firing. However,
neither trigger locks nor cable locks are designed to prevent access to the firearm.
Smaller lock boxes and larger gun safes are two of the most common types of
locking storage containers. One advantage of lock boxes and gun safes is that
they are designed to completely prevent unintended handling and removal of a
firearm. Lock boxes are generally constructed of sturdy, high-grade metal opened
by either a key or combination lock. Gun safes are quite heavy, usually weighing
at least 50 pounds. While gun safes are typically the most expensive firearm
storage devices, they are generally more reliable and secure.
Remember: Safety and storage devices are only as secure as the precautions you
take to protect the key or combination to the lock.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dmchinnock/Misc/gunboxlockingcopy.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/dmchinnock/Misc/gunlockscopy.jpg




I suggest contacting the California DoJ rather than relying upon internet opinion.

[Harley Quinn]

I have never been able to find a law that states this.

Armed Bear, Might not be a law, but with Grandkids and common sense that is the way I think it should be done.

I had mentioned:



Never carry ammo in a car (unlocked) as far as I am concerned, unless you have a ccw.

This has gotten away from OP's thought about open carry in CA. Best not to do that IMHO.

[hill billy]

WIth regard to hook686's post, I would take every internet post with a grain of salt. But specifically regarding the stuff from the DOJ website, that is in regard to safety, specifically safety in the home but IS NOT addressing LAW with regard to vehicle transport. There is nothing in the Ca penal code which says you need a hard case, plastic case, metal case, etc.It says locked case.

GEtting back to the op, open carry IS legal in Ca and you can have a loaded magazine on you person as long as it is not attached to the firearm. This is law, not an internet opinion.

[ArmedBear]

GEtting back to the op, open carry IS legal in Ca and you can have a loaded magazine on you person as long as it is not attached to the firearm. This is law, not an internet opinion.

One caveat. See section 12025. If you are deemed to be carrying a concealed firearm, and you have the ammunition in your possession or immediately accessible to you, you can go to jail for a year and pay a $1000 fine. So BE VERY CAREFUL with this.

Like I said, I'm not advocating that someone make an example of himself, or do something dumb, or push the limits to see what will happen.

I just felt the need to clarify some things before someone went out and bought a steel lock box for a pistol, another one for ammo, etc. You really don't have to go that far, but you do have to know and follow the law or you could find yourself in really hot water.

Every state is different. Some states specifically allow glovebox carry, without a CCW permit. California specifically prohibits glovebox carry. Never assume! That goes for every state. You never know what weird twists might exist in the laws of any particular state. Even a "gun-friendly" state can have some unexpected law, e.g. Montana, where a holstered pistol partially covered by a loose article of clothing can be considered "concealed." Be careful out there.:)

Sorry about the vinegar/honey thing .38. This is about the 5th thread in the past week where someone has insisted that he knew the laws in California, then proceeded to spread false information. I let it get to me, I guess.

That isn't the fault of one guy who thought he was doing the right thing, and I'm sorry. I was wrong to express my accumulated frustration at him.

I would ask that those who aren't sure, please check. The stuff is on the Web now.

Also, beware of local laws against "brandishing," or showing a weapon. I wouldn't OC here in San Diego, in town anyway. Read this story about a guy who could have gotten killed for his gun-shaped belt buckle: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/13636340/detail.html

That's not the only story like that, either.

[.38 Special]

Sorry about the vinegar/honey thing .38. This is about the 5th thread in the past week where someone has insisted that he knew the laws in California, then proceeded to spread false information. I let it get to me, I guess.

That isn't the fault of one guy who thought he was doing the right thing, and I'm sorry. I was wrong to express my accumulated frustration at him.
Good show, mate. And no need to apologize to me; I just hate to see a good message spoiled.

Carry on!

[Zoogster]

A lot of misinformation. Armed Bear seems fairly on top of the correct info.

The information people often confuse and then pass on confusing it with lawful transport is there is a section in the penal code that says a loaded firearm as it pertains to having a firearm during the commision of a felony is that the firearm is deemed loaded if both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition are in the immediate control of the same person.

However when not engaged in illegal activity the definition of a loaded firearm itself is an unexpended shell in the chamber or in a magazine/cylinder in the firearm.
Or in more detail:
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Case law shows the "attached to" portion of the law does not apply to shell holders like a side saddle with rounds in it.
So having a firearm on the passenger seat of the car with a loaded magazine next to it if both remain unconcealed (and you probably should not let them touch eachother) is technicaly legal but not advised.


However illegaly concealing it is a seperate offense. So technicaly unloaded open carry with ammunition ready to be loaded into the firearm can in fact be legal in some circumstances (however there is other laws that make it illegal in various locations or while doing different activities.)
However if charged with another crime, then that is considered carrying a loaded firearm even if not loaded.

If the firearm is at any time concealed and not in a locked container you run into legal issues with pc12025 though, which is one of those laws that outlaws practicly everything, and then makes many exceptions where it does not apply.

Also if you go within 1000 feet of a school, many of which are not posted, or are small private schools that do not look like traditional schools with a playground you can be in trouble. If officers learn you carry that way, and they will if you do it often, it is not a stretch to imagine they will simply wait until you drive within 1000 feet of a school and arrest you. It is near impossible to drive through a city and not go within 1000 feet of a school, especialy if you go through a residential area.

There is even further definitions of loaded in other sections of CA law, like the Fish and Game section which only considers a long arm loaded as it pertains to in a vehicle if there is a round in the chamber, but does not include the magazine etc. Of course since that is less than the definition of the penal code it is usualy not that important to mention, but it applies in CA anyways:

2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
open to the public.
A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the
magazine.
So if in legal possession at say your camp sight, which under the penal code is legal, then it could still be illegal to have such a loaded long arm in or even on top of the vehicle. So technicaly even in an RV or a truck camper etc camping in a legal camp spot it would be illegal to have a long arm with a round in the chamber inside while on or beside a public road or "other way" even though the penal code says it is legal.

So even if you think you know the penal code, there is actualy other sections of law that apply to firearms at all times even when you might not think so. The fish and game law above for example applies to all public roads at all times, not just while having something to do with "fish" or "game".

There is even laws that have to do with what type of light is legal to have while armed with a firearm in some circumstances. It can be illegal for example to have a flashlight that is powered by more than 3 volts if you are armed in an area with game (could even be alongside the road in a rural area). Going off to the bathroom while camping with a gun and a flashlight with more than 2 standard batteries for example could therefore be a criminal offense.

My point is that you better do an awful awful lot of research if you want to carry using "loopholes" in the law to the annoyance of local LEO or you will cross a law you do not even know exists and be held accountable.

[Harley Quinn]

One caveat. See section 12025. If you are deemed to be carrying a concealed firearm, and you have the ammunition in your possession or immediately accessible to you, you can go to jail for a year and pay a $1000 fine. So BE VERY CAREFUL with this.

:)

[ArmedBear]

So if in legal possession at say your camp sight, which under the penal code is legal, then it could still be illegal to have such a loaded long arm in or even on top of the vehicle. So technicaly even in an RV or a truck camper etc camping in a legal camp spot it would be illegal to have a long arm with a round in the chamber inside while on or beside a public road or "other way" even though the penal code says it is legal.

This is a common law in many states. Its intent, as far as I understand, is hunter safety. Too many idiots have had their gun go off or something, so the requirement is that you unchamber before entering any vehicle.

Something to know: this can apply if the gun is touching the car. Again, too many idiots have leaned a loaded rifle or shotgun against a tailgate and walked away. Their buddy gets in and moves his truck and BANG the thing goes off when it falls. So Fish and Game can and will cite you for this.

[edrice]

One caveat. See section 12025. If you are deemed to be carrying a concealed firearm, and you have the ammunition in your possession or immediately accessible to you, you can go to jail for a year and pay a $1000 fine. So BE VERY CAREFUL with this.

:)


OK, there seems to be some crossed statements here. I'm pretty sure ArmedBear is referring to concealed and not in a locked container.

What I'm getting from Harley_Quinn's thrust is that you can't even legally transport a firearm and target ammo to a firing range.

If I misinterpretted, somebody please set me straight.

Ed

[El Tejon]

I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. My father is going riding this summer in the Sierra Nevada mountains again this summer. He wanted me to check on California regs and this was a convenient jumping off point.:)

No sense in exposing a 75 year old to potential arrest, even if he is so cranky so cop would bother.:D

[ArmedBear]

edrice, Harley Quinn-

I really do want to help people to best understand this stuff and protect themselves, insofar as I can. Let me clarify.:)

The "ammo within reach" is ONLY an issue if you are ALREADY caught violating laws governing concealed firearms. It is an enhancement of the concealed weapons charge.

It does NOT apply if you are carrying the gun legally. You do NOT have to lock up your ammo separately if the gun's locked up, and the ammo can be locked up WITH the gun in the SAME container, as long as the gun is not loaded, per the above legal definition. The CHP website I linked above says exactly this.

Furthermore, it would be stupid to violate the concealed weapons laws while locking up your ammo. You're still committing a crime.

I was not confirming Harley Quinn's post about a legal requirement to lock up the ammo apart from the gun; he is wrong about that. I was posting the only section of the law that mentions "ammo within reach", and again, it only applies if you're already breaking other laws.

My only point was that one should be careful to follow the law about carrying/transport, especially since most of us would have ammo for the gun somewhere nearby. LOCK UP THE GUN, and you're fine.:)

[edrice]

ArmedBear, that is what I thought you were saying and that's the way I read it too.

Ed

[ArmedBear]

The CHP says specifically:

Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

"Container" means "locked container."

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html


My point is that you better do an awful awful lot of research if you want to carry using "loopholes" in the law to the annoyance of local LEO or you will cross a law you do not even know exists and be held accountable.

Zoogster is right on. Listen to Zoogster.

Like I said, I don't advocate making an example of yourself or "pushing it." And apart from the flashlight thing, there are legal shooting hours, non-toxic shot laws for waterfowl, and other issues to contend with.

I'm just reiterating that you don't need a collection of separate armor-plate lockboxes bolted to your car, just to go to the range.:)

People do things like that, and if that makes you feel safer from being hassled by Johnny Law, go for it. But it's really more important that you know what the laws are, and follow them.

[Harley Quinn]

Might have been confusing, I said I lock up ammo and mentioned it for common sense sake, as far as all the other thoughts and mentions. I am not concerned. You want to pick and choose how things are mentioned go for it.

But you did back up my mention about ammo in association with a firearm not locked up. Not a biggie.

Bob, it has been looked at and all things considered you can see it is a question that was worthy of asking and many opinions and thoughts about it.

When it goes to court it is this particular thread you should keep in mind as to all the ways things get manipulated, when some have agendas.

Regards:)

[bobbarker]

Thanks for all the info guys (even though things kind of wandered a little here and there.) I forgot to include in my original post(and for this I sincerely apologize, as it led to much back and forth) that I knew I couldn't OC Loaded, just with the Magazine on the outside of the holster, not in the weapon. Thanks a bunch everyone.