[TX1911fan]

Guys, I'm doing the research right now on reloading and have been saving my brass for months now. I just can't see how reloading saves much money. Even taking the cost of the equipment out of the equation, I don't see much savings. The cost per round of 9mm is about 18 cents per round, and I can buy it for that at Walmart. 45 ACP is a little cheaper than what I can buy it for, but I'm not sure enough to justify the time. 12 gauge and .223 is the same, just a little cheaper than what it goes for retail.

Am I totally off base here, or is this about right? I guess I was expecting to save a BUNCH and maybe that's just not possible.

[putteral]

9mm 125gr lead for $35 per thousand
wolf small pistol primers $90 per 5k
1lb of titegroup $15
It costs me me less than 10 cents per round
.45 around 10 cents

[Grump]

Don't compare Winchester White Box (WWB) factory-load prices with what your final assembled per-round cost is using Speer Gold Dots or some other even-more-overpriced components.

Don't calculate per-round costs for the first load only if you are buying new and unfired brass.

DO calculate the shooting consumables equivalent of the stock market's "dollar cost averaging" for at least three loadings of every case, counting on a loss rate of 3-10% of your brass per cycle.

DON'T reload using bullets that cost more apiece than entire loaded rounds of "ordinary" HP or SP ammo in that same caliber. You pay a huge price premium for the pride of getting this week's version of the very best.

DON'T calculate the dollar value of your time spent not just reloading, but sorting and cleaning brass and sorting and packaging up the fruits of your labors. This is especially so if you *can* work an extra hour every week and have that much more money to buy ammo. Reloading for savings has its strongest case for those who have more time than money.

I do it because I enjoy it, including a certain thumbing my nose at the manufacturers because I can spend the same or less money than I would for the worst factory loads, and get the accuracy and performance of the $.80-1.20/round match factory ammo.

It's harder since bullet prices shot up far disproportionately to the increase in metals costs. I still think they're all gouging us now, after we enjoyed 10-15 years of competitive pricing.

[04JRB]

the prices you state sound about right per round, but remember that you get much better quality from your handloads than the bottom of the barrel ammo that you compare the prices to.

I reload 40s&w for 17 cents, .223 for 19 cents. I also do several other calbers, but not that compare with what you cite.

Most of all, I enjoy reloading/handloading. Its nice that Im able to shoot more than I used to on the same budget though.

[TX1911fan]

The prices I've been able to find are about the same as yours, putteral, except bullets. Where are you buying those bullets? I'm happy to shoot lead if I can get them that cheap.

None of my inputs for pricing were using expensive components. I looked at either Ranier or Remington cheap bullets. I also averaged the brass, assuming I would reload it multiple times.

I do have some spare time, and would probably enjoy it, so maybe that is enough.

[ReloaderFred]

You're not going to save a penny, so just put all that saved up brass in USPS Flat Rate Boxes and send it to me. I'll do the saving for you......... Heck, if you want, I'll even let you know how well they shot, each and every time I reload them.

No need to thank me, just part of the service.....

Fred

[SSN Vet]

I've concluded that the key to saving money per round re-loading is to ...

1. Buy powder in 8# kegs and/or buy mil. surp. powder.

2. Buy Wolf Primers in bulk

3. Cast Boolits from free wheel weights.

4. Make your own gas checks from aluminum cans or do the cream of wheat trick.

5. Shop your bullets and buy larger quantities form places like Widners...or catch Midways blemish sale.

6. Reload for rifle cartridges. Then you'll be competing with $.50/$.75 a pop.....

These tricks can greatly reduce you cost....

and WWB won't cut it for many of the more demanding applications.

[SSN Vet]

PS.

I don't re-load to save money (though I know I do)

I do it because it's fun :)

[dirtman]

Fred, again your logic is flawless.

[The Bushmaster]

No...And you won't TX1911fan...You'll just shoot up the profits (savings). But you will be a much wiser man when it comes to understanding what is happening when you pull the trigger and you'll be a much better shot for it...That is the savings (profit)...

[Blackhawkdc]

Contrary to what the OP noted, I've seen considerable savings. I've been working up loads to replace the Remington Managed Recoil loads that my dad shoots in his 30-06. The Remington loads have hit $25+ a box of 20, its costing me less than $8 a box to reload. My .38 Specials are about the same, but not quite as much savings. 50 count box of cheap, but decent American Eagles from Federal runs $16-17 a box, my reloads run a little over $7 for 50. I haven't shot the 38's yet, but I know that the 30-06 rounds are more accurate than the factory loads. Plus I have the ability to load premium bullets for much less than what it'd cost me to buy a box of factory loads, if I could even find the bullets I wanted in a factory load.

Just another take on it.

Seth P.

[Afy]

I am reloading :

8x60S for about 1 Euro a cartridge versus Commercial at 4 Euros a Cartridge

.260 Remington at about 90 cents, versus 3.4 Euros for Fedral

.300 WM at about 1.2 Euro versus about 5 Euros for comparable stuff.

.222 Remington Magnum at 70 cents versus about 2 euros.

I could do it a somewhat cheaper, using wolf primers intead of CCI BR, S&B bulk bullets instead of Lapua Scenars and Sierra Match Kings etc... But then I want the highest possible accuracy.

Plus it relaxes me, and makes me more knowledgable to boot.

[Smithiac]

The savings comes with time you are saving your brass you can reload your brass several time you can't count that cost. You can't count your time because once you realize the accuracy bennefit you will enjoy trying different loads. You can mold your own bullets. Lead is cheap!!! I figured that if I mold my own bullets and I already have the brass I basically can load for the price of the primers and powder. With that said I load .357mag. at a cost of about $60-$70 per 1000rnds. did I save money???

you bet

Smithiac

[JeepGeek]

so how does one make gaschecks out of cans, and what is the cream of wheat trick?

[TX1911fan]

Yeah, I figured reloading rifle cartridges would save much more, I just don't shoot the rifle, other than my AR, that much.

I'll look for some bulk bullets to try and get the cost down some more. Thanks for the help guys.

Fred, keep your hands off my brass :)

[orionengnr]

I have bought from:
--Penn Bullets

I have looked and, and plan on trying:

--Kead (here in Texas)
--Mastercast
--Precision Bullets
--Bulletworks
--Missouri Bullet

You can Google all of these.
I believe there are two that go by the name of MasterCast, both possibly owned by guys named Mike. One seems to have issues...do your homework.
Or just search "cast bulles" here on THR and you will probably find many others.

[ReloaderFred]

Aw, I was just trying to help......

Actually, I'm presently loading for 28 calibers, some of which aren't available commercially. I've never seen a store carry 9x21, 9x23, 9x25, .41 AE or .45-120 Sharps. Those are just a few of the oddball rounds I load for, but even the common rounds are loaded at a savings, if you shop carefully and buy in bulk.

I very seldom buy primers in quantities of less than 5,000, and often buy them 20,000 at a time. Powder is purchased in 8 pound kegs, and sometimes in 32 pound cases. I watch for sales on bullets in the rifle calibers and have a wholesale account with Berry's Manufacturing for the pistol bullets I don't cast for. However, I have started casting more of my pistol bullets here lately, just because the price of finished bullets has gone so high with the metals market going crazy like it is.

The reloading is a hobby that I really enjoy, so my time is counted the same as fishing, hunting, reading, etc. It's therapy time, so it goes in the profit column.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Floppy_D]

Get into casting and you'll really see a difference. Including lube and electricity, I'm still under $5 for 500 40S&W or 357 bullets.

[Griz44]

Hmmmm... I load a lot of 45ACP. I use bulk powder, bulk primers, have yet to buy a single case, and cast my own boolits. I do buy lead from range mining operations, about .75C per pound. Hard cost is around 8-9.00 per hundred. Cheapest WWB at Wally World is 32.00 with taxes. I think that's quite a savings. What I save on one box pays for the range fees and the trip. Not to mention the quality is 5 times the factory junk ammo price. Also, since I started rolling my own, my stress levels have dropped, along with my blood pressure and the frequency of arguments with the XYL. No negatives, except the more frequent trips to the range use more gas, but the bullets make up the difference.

[Der Verge]

There is a ton of savings. Here is what I load.....

140 Barnes tsx in 7 mm rem mag, cci benchrest primers, re-22
$1.37 a round
You are talking all PREMIUM components compaired to the lowest quality round I would shoot out of my rifle, 150 Rem Corelokt, currently costing $1.50 a shot. Granted this is only $2.60 a box, but there is no comparason in the components. I believe Corelokts are good bullets, but not as good as the TSX. If i substituted Corelokts for the TSX, the cost for me to load changes to $0.95 a round, and I still am using benchrest primers! This is a difference of $11 a box!

Short but sweet, .223 rem Sierra 52gr BTHP over CCI benchrest primers and H-benchmark, costs about $13 for 50.
Midway USA has this in Black Hills ammo....$27.49/50 I am paying 1/2 price..... http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=926133&t=11082005

[Matt Dillon]

Even if you didn't save a dime, (and you should save a LOT of dimes) the knowledge you gain of ballistics far makes up for the cost of reloading supplies and equipment.

[Z-Michigan]

Maybe your Walmart has lower prices than mine?

In .38 Spl and .357 Magnum, I can reload with quality jacketed bullets, CCI primers and good powder for about 15 cents/rd = $7.50 per box of 50 (excluding cost of the cases - I expect to get at least 10 uses out of each, and treat them as 1 cent or less item per shot). To buy new WWB or UMC ammo would be $10-15 per 50 for .38 and $15-20+ per 50 for .357.

Some cartridges see less savings, and I think 9mm has the narrowest spread between cheap factory ammo and reloading. As others have pointed out, in rifle calibers the difference can be quite large. Ditto for bigger handgun calibers.

[JoeSlomo]

$237.00 for 2000 rounds of rainier 230g .45 ACP from midway.

Last time I bought WWB from walmart it was like $29.00 for 100, so $580.00 for 2000.

Range brass at no cost.

Bulk primers and powder are not that much.

The savings are worth it to me.

[.38 Special]

Honestly, I kind of agree with the OP. If you're willing to use bargain basement ammo in a common caliber like 9mm, reloading won't save you much money -- unless you want to scrounge range brass, canvas the tire stores for old wheel weights, and cut up pop cans for gas checks. I frankly don't have that much time to spend gathering other people's trash in order to make cut-rate handloads.

Personally, I handload to obtain first quality cartridges, often with components than are unavailable "pre-assembled" or for cartridges with limited factory options. If I just wanted to make my wondernine go bang with a minimum of hassle and expenditure, I would buy whatever is on sale at the local Big Five.

[Seafarer12]

I am not sure about the math. Even with buying stuff from SW I come out a lot cheaper than I can buy it for in the store. I reloaded 500 38's a month ago that cost me about 65 at the most. If I had bought my supplies online I could have just about cut that in half. Last time I looked 38 was going for about 14 per 50. I can load full tilt 357 mags for a little bit more. I am about to start loading 7mm BR. Try to find that in the store. I have seen it for sale for 2 bucks a shot. I will reload it for about 70 cents including brass. Then less than 20 unless I buy some fancy bullets.

[plinky]

Z-Michigan said: "Some cartridges see less savings, and I think 9mm has the narrowest spread between cheap factory ammo and reloading. As others have pointed out, in rifle calibers the difference can be quite large. Ditto for bigger handgun calibers."

I haven't priced factory ammo lately but that is the way I remember things. If you are comparing the price of your handloads with, basically, military ball ammo, the savings will be there but not dramatic. Just about any cartridge with Magnum in it's name is a different story.

I wouldn't want to discourage a potential reloader but if the shooter were going to shoot large volumes of military ball type ammo, good quality (WWB, UMC) factory ammo might be a smart choice.

[coloradokevin]

I'm not seeing much savings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys, I'm doing the research right now on reloading and have been saving my brass for months now. I just can't see how reloading saves much money. Even taking the cost of the equipment out of the equation, I don't see much savings. The cost per round of 9mm is about 18 cents per round, and I can buy it for that at Walmart. 45 ACP is a little cheaper than what I can buy it for, but I'm not sure enough to justify the time. 12 gauge and .223 is the same, just a little cheaper than what it goes for retail.

Am I totally off base here, or is this about right? I guess I was expecting to save a BUNCH and maybe that's just not possible.

Hmmm...

I don't know about your numbers, and I didn't read all of the other posts.

But, I've found the savings to be substantial by reloading. Even when building the equivalent of military type ammunition (a home-made XM193, if you will).

A couple of hints:

1) Make sure you are doing an apples-to-apples comparison. If you are basing your prices off of cheap factory ammo, then look for cheap bulk bullets, etc. If you are basing your numbers off of premium ammo (say Speer Gold Dot), then you can base your component prices on those higher-end components.

2) Consider the number of uses you will get from your brass.



Here are my current numbers for .223 plinking ammo (btw, mine has outperformed XM193 in every test that I've tried):

First, factory built brass cased .223 is running around $9-10 per box of 20 around here right now (for plinking / XM193 type ammo). Cases are going for about $385/1000 for similar quality ammo.

That would be $.475/round or $38.50/rd right now.


I didn't shop around for my last purchase, and didn't buy in large bulk. I could have saved a substantial amount of money by buying online from Powdervalley, etc. Nevertheless, here's what I paid for .223 components:

Bullets: $75/1000
Brass: $22.50/100
Powder: $24.99/ 1 lb
Primers: $26.99/1000
I will figure a fairly conservative 4 loads per cartridge right now.

(some folks who reload would cringe at any of those prices, saying that I overpaid).




Anyway, load those and you will get your ammo for $.25/round



At that price you will:

save $4.50 on a box of 20
save $137.51 per case of ammo
AND, be able to load in any quantity you choose!

[Rokman]

I know that I am not saving a cent because I have only been hand loading for several months now and it will take me forever to recoup all that I have invested to do this. My satisfaction comes from knowing that I can make my own ammo,which some of it has been very good, and the fact that I get a lot of enjoyment out of making it.:D

[RustyFN]

Honestly, I kind of agree with the OP. If you're willing to use bargain basement ammo in a common caliber like 9mm, reloading won't save you much money -- unless you want to scrounge range brass, canvas the tire stores for old wheel weights, and cut up pop cans for gas checks.
I'll bet you I can load for 50% less than the cheap ammo you buy with store bought FMJ's. I can load 9mm with Zero FMJ bullets for $7.50 per 100 rounds, no scrounging involved even though I like to scrounge.
You're not going to save a penny, so just put all that saved up brass in USPS Flat Rate Boxes and send it to me. I'll do the saving for you......... Heck, if you want, I'll even let you know how well they shot, each and every time I reload them.

No need to thank me, just part of the service.....

Fred
They just don't get much nicer around here than Fred. Way to step up Fred.:D
Rusty

[pinkymingeo]

Start shooting 10mm, 41mag, 44mag, 45Colt. The savings are enormous. You can pay for your equipment in a month, and spend future savings on more reloading stuff.

[TX1911fan]

I've been researching a bit more, and it appears I can get the price down a little more. I guess I just needed the encouragement to search for better prices. Thanks guys.

[KeithK]

I see your point OP for the smaller numerous shot calibers, but when you load for the larger, less known calibers you really rake up the savings, I load for 500 S&W and store bought ammo if you can find it costs $2.50 a round, and I can reload it for less than .60 cents a round with my brass.

50 BMG ammo really multiply the savings, factory 50 BMG costs $3.65 to $10.00 a round, and I can reload it for less than .70 cents a round for plinking ammo, and $2.50 a round for match quality ammo with the Hornady Amax bullet.

And reloading is just plain fun, another part of shooting I love.

Keith

[sparkyguy]

I like to calculate what ammo costs to my door. When I have components delivered, I don't have to add in gas to the store.
Here in PA, a box of 100rnd WWB is $18.47 + tax. That's 6% tax on 18.47 is $1.11. Add in gas to the store at $4.10gal, figure .50cents +/- equals around $20 a box or .20cents a piece for 9mm. Ridiculous. The round, to me, isn't worth .20cents, and not worth my time reloading for it, so I sold all my 9mm. I do, however shoot 38spl, 357mag and 45acp. 45acp costs me around .12cents a round to reload. That's about 120% less then retail. 357mag costs me about 11cents a round for lead bullets, or 16cents a round for JHP. At worst, that's around 160% cheaper then retail. 38spl costs me around 10cents a piece for lead bullets. Retail doesn't sell lead, but I don't load jacketed 38spl..no need. I save about 150% off retail price for 38's. I see the savings for what I shoot.:cool:

[SSN Vet]

so how does one make gaschecks out of cans, and what is the cream of wheat trick?


there are several threads over on CastBoolits about it and there's a guy on ebay selling a punch tool, though it's reported to be pretty "cheesey".

there's a little controversy over just how much alluminum oxide there will be on the checks and whether or not they can damage your bore.

several have reported good results, thought the soda can metal is a little to thin. Sheet copper (like that used for roof flashing) has been used with much better results.

one of the CastBoolits guys (who is quite a machinist if I understand correctly) is building an improved punch tool and is going to offer it as a group buy when it's finished and proven out.

do a search for cream of wheat (or cow) and you'll find some threads with impressive results, where cow is used as a filler over the powder. The stuff actually compresses to make a form of gas check, but also scrubs the barrel.

that's what I know....I'm keeping my eyes open o see how much the punch tool goes for on the group buy.

[Der Verge]

I am sorry, but, when I can go to the local gun shop, and leave with a pound of powder, 100 bullets, and a pack of primers for $5 more than a box of the same caliber ammo, I know I am saving money, learning a bunch about ballistics, and making better ammo........

Here is one for you. My father just told me a day or so ago he is going to give me my grandfather's Rem 700 CDL in .30-338. Norma ammo at the local store is $99.99/box of 20 (The ONLY factory loading for this caliber). This cartrige is .30 cal, and uses no more powder than .300 win mag. Think I can load that for cheaper?

[Seafarer12]

You should be able to reload it pretty cheap for a large magnum round. Dies for the less common rounds is what will cost you. You can reform brass so that wouldnt be a big deal.

[Okiecruffler]

As stated, it depends alot on what you're reloading. I shoot alot of 218 bee. Priced that ammo lately? I can reload it for practically nothing. I also shoot alot of 357max. Seen any of that ammo lately? And then of course there's my 6tcu. Ain't never seen a box of that laying around. I don't really think about price, reloading is just an extension of shooting, something I can do when I can't get to the range. And when my 6tcu gave me a 0.13" group at 100 yrds, that was all me.:D

[GP100man]

i love to shoot !
i love guns & what they represent!
i love manufacturing my own ammo!
& as long as my wife thinks i`m saving money doin it all is good in the universe!!!!


GP100man

[kennedy]

yes you save money and get a better product
.308 walmart price .75 reload match ammo .50 best 100yd group .4in 5 shots
.223 reload cost is now same as lake city ammo bought 2 years ago(half current prices
.40 .12 reload price, .20 at walmart.
Add in the fun of reloading, priceless.

[RustyFN]

TX1911fan if you want to really save some money look into a C&R license. I can buy at dealer price at Graf's and some other places. The license cost $30 and is good for three years. It is very easy to get. For an example I can buy Wolf primers at Graf's for $80 per 5,000 and most powders for $96 per 8 pound jug. That's aroung $16 per thousand primers and $12 per pound of powder. I go in with two friends and we max out a order for a single hazmat fee and split the stuff up. A max order is 50,000 primers or 48 pounds of powder or 50 pounds of powder & primers mixed.
Rusty

[scrat]

Depends on what your shooting too. When your comparing the 45acp, 9mm and 223. Thats the YUPPEEE guns. the guns everyone has to have. So because of that the prices are usually the ones on sale or cheaply made and sold. However like my 45 Colt. The prices for a box of REAL 45s can be any where from 35-48.99 for a box of 50. I cast my own when i reload for 45 Long Colt it cost me about .05 cents a round. That is huge very huge. So it really depends. If you like to buy the on sale cheapest brand ammo. then maybe reloading is not for you. If you have some rare, expensive or Big caliber guns then you may want to reload as the cost of some of that ammo is huge. Reloading can save big money and keep you at the range.

[zxcvbob]

For the cheapest possible good 9mm rounds:
Alliant Promo powder, Wolf primers, and quality cast bullets.

But the really big savings are when shooting big-bore revolver cartridges, like .45 Colt. You can save almost $1 per round.

[Sport45]

Yeah, if you want to really save money buy a gun in a not-so-popular caliber. I save the most loading for the 7.7jap, .375win, and .45Colt. .45C is gaining popularity, but still pretty expensive if you buy it retail.

For some pretty good handgun bullet prices try:
Two Alpha Bullets (http://www.twoalphabullets.com/Products.htm)
Montana Gold Bullet (https://secure3.mooseweb.com/montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.tpl)
Stonewall Bullets (http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,23847.0.html)
Mastercast Bullets (http://www.mastercastbullets.com/productpricelist.html)

[JeepGeek]

ZXCVBob- where are you getting that load data from? I don't see it on their website.

[zxcvbob]

Promo load data = Red Dot (by weight.)

[JeepGeek]

I'm new to reloading so bear with me.

I was under the impression that different powders were not to be substituted one for the other....

[zxcvbob]

I'm new to reloading so bear with me.
I was under the impression that different powders were not to be substituted one for the other....

That's a very good rule. There are a few exceptions, and this is one of them: :)
http://alliantpowder.com/products/promo.htm

[Luggernut]

Here's my analysis:

WWB .45ACP/1000 $320
Other brands are more/1000

Homemade/1000 $163
Brass Free or almost Free
Powder $15
Primers $25
Berrys 230gr Plated RN $123


I save over $150/1000.... and I go thru a lot. ;)

However... I really wish more people didn't see a savings... people are starting to fight over 9mm brass these days.

[Afy]

I dont know... but what I am reading in this thread is:

If you really want to save big on reloading shoot exotic calibers... :evil:

[762 shooter]

You will not save money.

You will spend the same amount of money or more.

Instead of going to the range and shooting 200 rounds you will shoot 400 rounds.

You will not save money.

Bryan

PS I loaded black powder cartridge 45-70 and really didn't care about shooting except to empty the cases so I could reload some more. I am sick.

[leadcounsel]

In my estimation, it all boils down to how you want to spend your freetime. If it's in front of a press, or online researching components then you will save money in the long run.

However, in my freetime (when I'm not deployed) I like to date, snowboard, play football, basketball, go boating, travel, sightsee, spend time with my pets, family, friends, socialize, and go SHOOTING, etc... I just don't have the time or interest in reloading at this point in my life.

For me, the marginal savings for reloading ammo is not worth the significant time and equipment investment for what is otherwise a second job in manufacturing.

[scrat]

You sound like your rather young too. For me i am in a point in my life where i dont think my wife would like me to be dating. I have 2 boys 1 stepdaughter. 1 grandchild. I have owned probably over 40 cars, i have already traveled as much as one can travel. I have dated and seen more woman than i would ever admit to. I own my own house. so in my free time i am looking for things that i can do to satisfy me. Reloading is one of them. I feel comforatble spending a few hours reloading. Sometimes i wont go shooting for a few weeks or so. However i still reload. Make as much as i can. Not enough to start a war. However if the day ever comes when i dont want to reload i hope that i have enough to keep me going. Reloading is not for everyone. Like i mentioned earlier. If you have one of those guns that everybody has. Then ammo is going to be available at most likely affordable prices. You will have more chances of sales. so you have the most benefits. Another caliber i reload for is .410 shotgun. comparing prices you can almost buy 3 boxes of shells to 1 box of .410. The last time i prices .410 it was at 10.00 a box. Thats a lot of money for shotgun. For sure thats a caliber i reload for.

[PecosRiverM]

Or as my Dad puts it: "Sometimes you just have to spend some time away from the other half".

He likes his single stage as he's out of the house more often to reload.

Of course he's been married 50 yrs to my 19 so maybe there's something to that wisdom:scrutiny:

[jjohnson]

First, if you're not seeing enough savings, you're just simply shooting enough, young man! You have to make it up in volume. Start loading like you were sponsoring a SWAT team competition or something and you'll start seeing the savings :D

Second factor, is: just what is your time worth? Some of us spend leisure time loading ammo instead of watching reality TV :barf: so "labor is free" in that respect. If your time's worth $50 an hour because you're overpaid, maybe you should just work more and buy factory ammo. One of us reloaders at the range will happily pick up your brass. :evil:

[RustyFN]

762 shooter:
You will not save money.

You will spend the same amount of money or more.

Instead of going to the range and shooting 200 rounds you will shoot 400 rounds.

You will not save money.

Bryan
I think that depends on the person. I go to the range with a goal in mind and to practice, not just to blast a bunch of ammo. I normally bring 800 rounds with me. I would shoot the same amount weather it was reloads or factory. I never have counted how many rounds I shoot. I just shoot until I'm satisfied, or can't stand any more pain whatever the case might be that day.:D
Rusty