Scary Fast Draw

[Rokyudai]

A buddy of mine just sent this to me. It's several years old but may lend to a thread I read earlier about muscle memory/ instinctive shooting. Just thought I would post the link for those who may appreciate it.

My friend said in his email 'man, we really need to practice!' I am sure that more training is not a bad idea but the fact these guys run around with the grip safety taped, the thumb safety off, and it is shoved down the pants; I think my training will avoid this particular drill! :neener:

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/?action=view&current=SparrowHitman.flv

[CountGlockula]

Train safe.

[Tribal]

So, um, is that a gun in your pocket or...

[MaterDei]

There must be something in the water in the Philippines. This guy is very fast too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ose72en9YfM

[bensdad]

Having your weak-hand in your pocket (it looked like he pushed the gun up by the barrel using his left) is no way to go through life.

If I ever NEED to draw that fast, I've gotten in way too deep and had very little situational awareness.

Good training for a hitman, bad practice for cc.

[Schofield3]

Having your weak-hand in your pocket (it looked like he pushed the gun up by the barrel using his left) is no way to go through life.

+1

[Biker]

Hell, I play pocket pool without a gun.

Biker:cool:

[Rokyudai]

I just edited and repasted, it should work. Apologies...

[cracked butt]

Jerry Miculek would own him.

[WayneConrad]

If I ever NEED to draw that fast, I've gotten in way too deep and had very little situational awareness.
Having your weak-hand in your pocket (it looked like he pushed the gun up by the barrel using his left) is no way to go through life.
This guy isn't playing defense. He's on the offensive team. Different ballgame.

[CountGlockula]

There must be something in the water in the Philippines.

Filipinos are born warriors.:D

[CWL]

This guy isn't playing defense. He's on the offensive team. Different ballgame.

Yup, defensive training can't prepare you to counter this type of ambush/assassination move. All you can do to is try & keep people from getting close enough to deploy.

Learning his move, no holster & taping-down the safeties is useless for civilian SD.

[Bazooka Joe71]

Learning his move, no holster & taping-down the safeties is useless for civilian SD.

You can say that again!

I'll be damned if I ever have a cocked and unlocked firearm pointed, ahem, in that direction.:what:

[owlhoot]

Fast draw work can be as safe or as dangerous as the practicioner makes it. That said, I think everybody who carries should work on a SAFE swift accurate first shot from the leather. And the practice should be done using one's normal carry rig and weapon location.

[roscoe]

That off hand boost is interesting. Hard to stop someone like that.

[Sebastian the Ibis]

There was a guy at the Miami Gun show that made holsters for the same location that were hidden behind a cellphone holster on the belt. Has anyone seen/used these and know if the same quickness could be accomplished without having to push the gun up by the barrel?

[mekender]

Jim Zubiena did the same thing on film... was in an episode of miami vice and was so fast that he got off 3 rounds in such a short time that the sound guy could only put in two gunshot sounds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2Il86-38A

[jon_in_wv]

I've never read anything positive about those pager pal holsters. I would avoid it. A smart carry holster would most likely fit the bill for something like this though.

[Old Fuff]

He was born too late... :neener:

Brownings first .38 and .45 pistols came with no grip or manual safety... :what:

But I don't think JMB recommended cocked but unlocked carry... :eek:

[strambo]

He didn't have his hand in his pocket on the 1st draw. The main thing I got out of it is this: he practiced 10 minutes a day. A little practice, done frequently, will over time yield tremendous results. Much better than a long practice 1X month.

Practice 10 mins per day and we would all be amazingly fast after a while (6 mo-1 yr?). Heck, 5 min/day draws and 5 min/day dry fire and we could all be really good for little investment. I need to make that a habit.

Of course you should not practice his unsafe hitman method...:uhoh:

[never_retreat]

I think bob munden's got them all beat.

[ZombieHunter]

.36 seconds? Wow. We all know the average response time is .20 seconds right? That's .20 seconds to figure out what's going on and .16 seconds for your life to flash before your eyes...talk about a highlight reel.

[starshooter231]

WOW that was fast.

[Eyesac]

Yeah .36 from tucked-in shirt concealment? My goodness. That reminds me of those crazy Chinese acrobats that can toss three teacups balanced on their foot and have them land stacked on their head (whilst riding a unicycle). Practice can do some amazing stuff...

[Well-Armed Lamb]

I think I saw that video, or excerpts of it, somewhere before -- I didn't remember the speaker's comments, but ain't no way to forget that scary blink-and-you-missed-it draw.

[.38 Special]

Bill Jordan did it in point two six. With a revolver.

Plus he wasn't a murderer for hire.

So there.

[Chris Rhines]

Interesting technique, and the shooter is obviously competent, but I don't think that was 0.36 seconds, unless they were timing it from his first hand movement. Also note that the shooter missed a very large target, at a range of no more than a few feet.

That said, the lesson of constant daily practice is a good one.

- Chris

[Erik]

Chris,
He didn't miss. He was demo'ing a head shot. (between the second and third small dots up from the center circle) A ten foot head shot on-demand under .50 seconds from deep concealment is impressive by any standard.

---

Side note: I imagine the security during the demo was... interesting.

[Geronimo45]

Consistent practice can do a lot for you. Draw and fire from concealment in .36 second... think I've got a long way to go to reach that.

[1KPerDay]

Why's the philipino guy carrying chamber empty?

[Geronimo45]

Why's the philipino guy carrying chamber empty?
"Only one round is loaded in the chamber" is what I heard. No other ammo, probably no mag.

[Odd Job]

As others have said, practice is everything.

This is what happens when you get a guy who used to be quite fast when drawing from concealed, but has a break of almost 4 years away from his pistol and decides to film his first draw:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/th_MVI2220b.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/?action=view&current=MVI2220b.flv)

That's much slower than was expected. Wrong T-shirt also, makes obvious printing.

That same guy, when practicing daily, was drawing much faster than that, probably at least twice or three times as fast.

As for the Filipino in the video, he is doing what he has to: he has to involve the weak hand in the draw, otherwise the gun isn't available. Whether he does it from inside the pocket or massages it from the outside, he still needs the weak hand to present the pistol.

I'm not a tactics expert... but if you're drawing concealed (and you are presenting the gun to full view) I can't see how you can do it with one hand and still be fast. Maybe someone can enlighten me here.

[1KPerDay]

Only one round is loaded in the chamber" is what I heard. No other ammo, probably no mag.

Watch it again. :) He empties the gun, empties the chamber loads a mag. Draws, racks the slide, double taps. Removes mag, empties the chamber, re-inserts mag, and repeats.

I was just wondering if there's some law against carrying a pistol with one in the chamber in pilpillipi;;pioinlons

[Geronimo45]

Oh - you were talking about the second video. My mistake.

[MaterDei]

You guys are talking about two different videos. :)

The OPs video is a single round in the chamber. The video I posted is of a guy who racks the slide on his draw.

[Claude Clay]

he sure is fast. hard work earning the nickname 'Juanut'

[strambo]

You can draw pretty fast from concealment 1-hand by carrying strong side hip and sweeping the garment back as you draw.

[lamazza]

The Glock Fo-tay man would be missing more than his toe. ;)

[1KPerDay]

Oh - you were talking about the second video. My mistake.
my mistake too... I couldn't see the first vid from work so I didn't know that THAT guy was also philipino. LOL

[Odd Job]

You can draw pretty fast from concealment 1-hand by carrying strong side hip and sweeping the garment back as you draw.

I suppose with a jacket you could do it, but I've not been able to find a way to do it with a T-shirt. (I carry IWB holster)

[poet]

looks like the second guy with the camo shorts and the glock practices the Isreali method. No round in the chamber and must be racked when pistol is being presented. I'm curious as to who trained the hitman.

[lonegunman]

"Jerry Miculek would own him."


While Jerry Miculek is fast on paper, this guy probably killed a few people in reality.

[Acera]

+1 Lonegunman,

There is a difference. I would give him a distinct advantage over the others in a gunfight where you are facing another man and not a paper or steel target. (Not that I would want to face any of the pros in a fight, lol.)

[Phil DeGraves]

I don't see why anyone thinks this is impressive. If I can start with my hand in my pocket, I'd just have my hand on a gun in the pocket and draw. I bet almost everyone here could do that in under half a second. What would be fast is drawing from concealment starting from a surrender position with both hands at shoulder level. That would be a defensive draw.

[Mad Magyar]

I wonder if he had watched a Rex Applegate training film?:rolleyes:

[Erik]

Phil,
What's impressive is that most folks can't accomplish on demand 10 foot, sub-half second head shots, period. To be able to do it on demand, let alone a .36 second pace, from any manner of carry, let alone from deep concealment, is impressive.

Todd Jarrett demo's several draws in one of his videos. The fastest he cites is .66 seconds. Granted, he's reacting to a buzzer in stead of initiating the count down via movement, but he's still very fast, and still quite a bit behind .36 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqaiJV1gIBw&feature=related

[Stevie-Ray]

I've never read anything positive about those pager pal holsters.Got one. Don't use it. Pain in the butt.

[Phil DeGraves]

Granted, he's reacting to a buzzer in stead of initiating the count down via movement,

Exactly. That's comparing apples and oranges. Initiating movement is MUCH faster. We would expect that.

What's impressive is that most folks can't accomplish on demand 10 foot, sub-half second head shots, period

That's true even for police, but police are not GUN people.
10 feet is 3 yards. With your hand on your gun in your pocket, I'd be willing to bet most GUN people (people that practice regularly) initiating their own start time could get a head shot in under half a second. Not to mention that his method of carry would preclude certain everyday activities (like WALKING). All it proves is that if someone wants to ambush you to kill you, they can and there is not much you can do about it to stop them.

Todd Jarrett reacting to a buzzer in .66 seconds, well, considering that reaction time when you are expecting it is in the neighborhood of .25 to .33 seconds and considering his hand does not start on the gun, that gives him an adjusted speed of .33 to .41 WITHOUT THE HAND STARTING ON THE GUN. Much more impressive in my mind.

No question that the Filipino hitman has fast hands though.

[Erik]

Let me get this straight, you do not find a .36 unadjusted time by a relatively unknown assassin from deep concealment impressive but do find an "adjusted" similar time by a top-ranked Grand Master from a competition speed rig impressive? Do I have that correct?

[Erik]

And the whole his hand is on his gun detractor is inaccurate. The first demo shows him starting from a relaxed, hands at his side, posture, while the staged assassination shows his hands free at his side as he's walking. Yes... it is a two handed draw requiring the support hand to get there first. So?

[burningsquirrels]

gotta remember he's an assassin, not a CCW... so the way he carries is obviously different than one for a LEO or CCW/self defense would.

[Phil DeGraves]

Erik: I'm just saying that the way he is using it, and the way he demonstrates it the second time, he might as well have his hand in his pocket. If you call that deep concealment, fine. Most of us are capable of similar times starting with our hand on the gun . His approach is an offensive approach. Anybody can walk up to anybody, pull a gun out an shoot him in the head before the target can react. So what is so impressive about that? I don't know what rig Todd Jarrett was using when he did his draws that you mentioned. I thought he was shooting from a concealed carry. Rereading the post, I see that you didn't say that. But heck, I have video of me shooting from concealed carry (under a sweatshirt) in .66 seconds and no one has heard of me either. The drill is actually two double taps (or more correctly, hammers) into two targets in under 2 seconds from a surrender position with a concealed firearm and reacting to a timer, not self initiated.
(My best time was 1.57; my average is 1.8). Big deal.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

Guys,

Most of us in this forum use our toys for sport and only in the gravest extreme will we have to use them for personal defense.

The subject of the video is an assassin, a mighty good example of the breed if I may add. He eats, drinks, sleeps...lives to kill people. His gun is a tool that he has mastered the use of, and carries it in his crotch:D The vast majority of us do not live in his world and we will never understand.

Having originally come from that country, I can honestly say there are people who have that "talent". Not talking IPSC, SASS, Cowboy competition talent here.......but Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, Jesse James gunslinger stuff. Fifteen yrs ago, there were still some areas that can rival Dodge City (I'm exaggerating but you get the idea).

I learned from mutual acquaintances that a gentleman I once knew, bless his soul, was occasionally tapped by the law, i.e. intelligence operatives, to do their handiwork because he had the gift of exceptionally incredible speed and accuracy....real live moving targets here...no Bianchi set-ups. He would deliver the ransom money in an attache case and to the surprise of the kidnappers, well, the result would always be a shut-out in favor of this somebody:D.

BTW, this gentleman never talked about his exploits, but he'd often demo his skill with his air rifle: quickly pointing from the hip, he would shoot and drop a lizard from the ceiling (...we had those creepy lizards and cockroaches too:)) No visible damage to the lizard...he said to drop a lizard, you must hit it right at the tip of its nose. I am relieved we are on the same side of the law.

O yes, these men are quiet, unassuming, and nondescript, with one amazing talent and the willingness to use it:(

[give]

jerry miculek might be faster,but how many people has he killed compaired to this guy?

[burningsquirrels]

exactly. top ipsc shooters can be faster from their race rigs, but this guy can kill them all anywhere, any time. he is the master of a different trade.

[Guy B. Meredith]

Jerry Miculek's speed records are not from the holster. Bob Munden on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH0KrlH1yhU

One episode of Shooting USA or American Shooter had Bob doing three shots which looked like the two in the video. Add, what, .02 seconds for concealed?

[burningsquirrels]

holy. crap.

[poet]

Gentlemen, skill is skill. Remember that according to the video about the hitman, it was declassified several years ago by law enforcement. There are actually people out there that do this for real with permanent results. It seems that you are comparing a Roman gladiator to an Olympic boxer.

[hankpac]

the "hitman" is holding the weapon with his left hand, by the muzzle or slide with his hand inside his pocket.Since he is wearing sweats, he can even just grab the weapon from the outside.
The narrator says he drops it iside the underwear (shorts), so it wouldn't slide down into his pants. He pokes it up past his waistband about 3 inches, so the grip is fully exposed, and ready to grab.
Intersting.

[Phil DeGraves]

I can honestly say there are people who have that "talent". Not talking IPSC, SASS, Cowboy competition talent here.......but Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, Jesse James gunslinger stuff.

This assassin does not even fall in this category because he is hitting defenseless people that have no idea he is stalking them. Are we going to talk about how much skill those guys at Columbine or VaTech had because those guys killed a lot of defenseless people? Big deal. I'm not impressed. If he was taking out armed adversaries that had the drop on him, that would be different. This guy was a killer, not a gunfighter.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

This assassin does not even fall in this category because he is hitting defenseless people that have no idea he is stalking them. Are we going to talk about how much skill those guys at Columbine or VaTech had because those guys killed a lot of defenseless people? Big deal. I'm not impressed. If he was taking out armed adversaries that had the drop on him, that would be different. This guy was a killer, not a gunfighter.

Totally agree. Cowardly assassin/killer, not gunfighter.

However, Original Poster was commenting on carry technique/style, skill and speed of draw...not the shooter's, morals, ethics, or choice of occupation:)

[Double Naught Spy]

What does it matter was JM or TJ or any other professional shooter can do compared to this professional hitman? Some of y'all are just plain silly.

For the sake of argument, I am fairly certain this hitman could take ANY other professional shooter just fine and dandy. Why? Because his craft is all about the ambush. JM, TJ, and the others could no more defend against being shot by this guy than you or me. Ambushing is all about the element of surprise.

[Phil DeGraves]

Ambushing is all about the element of surprise.

Exactly. So drawing from the pocket is just as fast and just as surprising for a target that has no idea he is about to get ambushed.

Have any of you tried his technique? I did. Yes, it works for an assassin (and is not practical in any other type of application) and is easy to master with very little practice. But even .66 seconds from a concealed all day type carry is going to be fast enough to ambush the unsuspecting. I repeat, I'm not impressed.

[Erik]

Actually, it is very similar to what some SmartCarry and Thunderwear proponents have worked out for themselves. Some of the "pop-up" holster folks, too.

---

I'd be interested to see videos of forum member making sub-second head shots under any circumstances.

Very interested to see the same at under a half-second.

Clocks starting at movement, not buzzer.

I will declare you impressive no matter your occupation, morals, religion, ethics, or complete lack there-of. If necessary, I dedicate myself to ranking the impressive. Perhaps in its own thread. Hmmm. :scrutiny:

[tipoc]

The Sparrows were a smallish squad (a few hundred at their height) within the New Peoples Army (NPA) of the Phillipines during the fight against the Marcos dictatorship. This was during the decades the U.S. supported Marcos. The PDA waged a long guerrilla war against the dictator.

Not all the members of the Sparrows were highly trained. Many members were chosen from the ranks of the NPA because they were young, unknown and could get closer to their targets than older more well known members or organizers.

The NPA was originally founded by the Communist Party of the Phillipines, if I remember right, in the 1970s but became broader than the CP over the years. The NPA had no significant source of arms other than to get them from the Phillipine army or on the black market. They did not get arms from the Soviet Union directly. They were usually short of arms.

The Sparrows were called this because the idea was to swoop in as fast as a sparrow, do the job and get out. The carried out assassinations, acquired weapons, etc.

As is often the case with units like this there was always concern from the PDA about their targets and who was giving the orders and the political discipline that they followed. They were supposed to leave everyday policemen alone and focus on the army and selected targets.

tipoc

[PzGren]

It should give food to the old discussion about point shooting again...:D

[BlackJackal]

well, tried it with a old deactivated pellet gun, the gun weighs quite a bit, and is all steal, resembles a 1911.
i can do it pretty fast, i dont think as fast as this guy but quite fast its not all the hard just walking and anysort of fast movement lowers the gun making it more difficult to reach significanly increasing the speed it takes to reach it.

[Oldskoolfan]

Damn that guy was fast.

[roadrash 1]

I guess I go into condition red,next time I see a Philipino dude approaching me with his hand in his pocket!:what:

[A/C Guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woILVt30QV8

[Double Naught Spy]

That is nice and all, but Bob Munden isn't killing people for a living.

[roadrash 1]

Sounds like that Philipino assassin is pushin up daisies.Aint too awful quick now I bet!Probably went up against someone that had more than one round in his pistol.:neener:

[Daemon688]

Ummm......if you watched the video the guy was being interrogated. If he was being interrogated, he was probably getting charged with oh....I don't know, killing people. I bet he was executed.

[rino451]

I think that the unimpressed aren't giving any weight to one important fact:

He can draw that fast EVERY time reliably - so much so, that he can carry only one round. Many might be that fast, but are they also that reliable?

[SN13]

I think the best thing to take away from this thread is that a little practice daily will help you when you need it.

I've started practicing draws and reloads with an empty gun and empty mags while i watch TV. If it's second nature to you, you'll be prepared should the time come.

(I make sure that NO mags are accessible with ammo in them. To do otherwise would be foolish)

[SsevenN]

:uhoh:

Thanks for this thread guys.

I have become complaicent with my IWB draw.

It has motivated me to get some extra "quick draw" time in.

[tipoc]

The video is over 20 years old. The Sparrows have not been active since slightly before Marcos was overthrown by the "People's Revolution".

Now the other fella is fast as well. As he says at the end of the vid "Practice makes perfect."

tipoc

[Tacticaldude]

WoW! Cool Thread..Thanks Rokyudai!
Also +1 CountGlockula " Filipinos are born warriors."

Train safe..Practice..practice..practice...

[burningsquirrels]

are you filipino? lol

[steveracer]

Munden would still smoke the guy. Just because he doesn't kill people for a living doesn't mean that his training wouldn't take over. You aren't a killer until you are. No reason the first time would be slow, or that he would waver. Munden's skill far surpasses that of this hit man. I have seen many men who never shot anyone turn into calm, professional killers because they fell back on their training.
Now, the after-effects? They can have a lasting impact.

[Phil DeGraves]

I think the best thing to take away from this thread is that a little practice daily will help you when you need it.


Amen to that...

[straightShot]

Watching the first video makes one think. Don't forget to practice!

One round in the chamber and no extra ammo in the grip makes the gun a bit lighter to carry as well, but I can't make myself carry in front like he did...

[Erik]

"One round in the chamber and no extra ammo in the grip makes the gun a bit lighter to carry as well..."

I have heard it stated that the one round thing was more about the practical security concerns of the US and Philipino personnel persent at filming than an accurate reflection of Medina's carry practices in the field.