Revolver or Auto

[global247]

For a new person wanting to carry a handgun, which is the better option? On one hand an auto carries more rounds than a revolver. On the other hand revolvers are pretty fool proof as far as operation. Just another can of worms.

[Papa Whiskey]

Go to the range and shoot some of both. Decide what is most comfortable for you and your hands and choose accordingly. Then get some good training.

[Treo]

DA Semi auto alá CZ

[Bennett Prescott]

Which one does the newbie have a good (leather) concealment holster for, that fits on a good 1.5" belt?

If that holster is made by Galco, or Mike's, or any of those cheap off the shelf nonsense manufacturers, they don't get to pass go and have to pay luxury tax.

[Lou22]

I've carried both. I would prefer an auto, but my S&W 642 carries very well. And like you said, is almost foolproof. My nod to the revolver.

Lou

[10-Ring]

First off, welcome to the collective :D

2ndly, as you build you skill level, you'll find what works best for you but, IMO -- no, IMhumbleO, keeping things simple is best so, the wheelgun is the better choice

[Z-Michigan]

Wheelgun if your only purpose is self-defense and you don't plan to practice a lot. Fewer controls and much less to go wrong by surprise. Bear in mind that many experts also choose wheelguns. If you do plan to practice a lot, shoot both and decide which one you like better.

[The Bushmaster]

I can't vote on this one because it really doesn't make any difference. What ever works for you. Revolver? Semi-auto? Pick one and go practice with it...I carry both...

[Feanaro]

Either/or. Pick one that works, practice with it, use it.

On the other hand revolvers are pretty fool proof as far as operation.

Plain old not true. That or I'm a new generation of fools which the revolver is not proofed against. I caused my Smith & Wesson 28-2 to have light strikes when I put my thumb right against the hammer. Why did I do that? Hell if I know. People do weird things under stress. More fool proof? Probably. Until you need to reload, anyways.

Wheelgun if your only purpose is self-defense and you don't plan to practice a lot. Fewer controls

Other than a Browning Buckmark, all my pistols are revolvers. I totally agree. A revolver has a cylinder release and a trigger. A Glock has a slide release, magazine release, and a trigger(that disassembly dingus doesn't count unless you want to count screws in the sideplate). The complexity boggles the mind. I don't know how a grown adult could wrap their head around it. ;)

[BikerRN]

I carry an Autoloader at work, and occaisionally off duty, but prefer the Revolver.

Revolvers are easiest to teach the "basics" on, and are easier for "administrative purposes" but harder to master, IMHO. It easier to teach how to load/unload a Revolver than an Autoloader. How many of us have heard of the "newbie" racking the slide and then ejecting the magazine?

I don't recommend a J-Frame, or even a small Autoloader, like the PM9 unless someone is an expirienced shooter, as the smaller you go in gun size, the harder it is to shoot well.

I like Revolvers, and prefer them, so my vote is for the Revolver. I am however biased. I only own two "bottomfeeders", a 1911 and a Glock 19. The rest are round guns. :)

BikerRN

[Defensory]

Posted by Feanaro:
A Glock has a slide release, magazine release, and a trigger(that disassembly dingus doesn't count unless you want to count screws in the sideplate). The complexity boggles the mind. I don't know how a grown adult could wrap their head around it.

Them there semi-ottos are jes' too compilicated fer me, Feanaro. Ya need a Harvard duhgree to figger them things out, and I'm afraid there ain't any wimin that'll ever figger 'em out. :p

[guntotinguy]

I prefer a autoloader myself...nothing against revolvers but ive had a lot more practice with autos (really prefer the 1911 models).

[Geronimo45]

I understand that it's easier to learn to shoot well with an autoloader than a revolver. The trigger's got something to do with that - a long, 12lb or higher pull for every shot. Compare that to an 8 or 9lb pull in some autos... or a 5lb pull on many 1911s. The easier the trigger, the easier it is to keep the gun steady while working the trigger.

[fallingblock]

With a bit of practice I find that quick double action shooting with
a revolver seems to be 'self-stabilizing'.

Elmer Keith discussed this in "Sixguns" I think.

Whatever gun you feel most comfortable with is the one to choose.

And practice a lot. :)

[jad0110]

Go to the range and shoot some of both. Decide what is most comfortable for you and your hands and choose accordingly. Then get some good training.

True. Software, not hardware. I trust a newbie more who has solid safety skills with an auto than a clutz with a revolver.

That being said, I give a slight nod to the revolver for one reason, and BikerRN hit it on the head:

How many of us have heard of the "newbie" racking the slide and then ejecting the magazine?

But in the end, it depends on what feels "right" to you. If it's a revolver, great! If it's an auto, great! Just remember the above statement by Biker :cool: .

With a bit of practice I find that quick double action shooting with
a revolver seems to be 'self-stabilizing'.

Elmer Keith discussed this in "Sixguns" I think.

Wholeheartedly agree. A few years ago I used to shoot exclusively SA. Then one day I took it as a challenge and fired DA. After only 100 rounds, I was shooting DA as well as SA. I shoot best in DA today. But, everyone is different. Some people like the trigger on gun XYZ, and others don't.

[SAG0282]

It is rare I don't recommend a 9mm semi-auto for new shooters. It's cheap ammunition and ease of operation combined with relatively formidable chambering make it hard to beat.

[Hawk]

Some folks that are new to carrying a handgun simply feel more comfortable carrying in condition 3. This is not a practical option with a revolver.

This attitude generally fades after several months without the firearm ever "discharging" on an empty chamber but getting to that point sometimes takes a condition 3 semi. While condition 3 isn't generally viewed as a good idea it beats the snot out of a wheelgun in a closet or glove compartment.

Special case - limited applicability.

[theNoid]

Revolver or Auto?

Both.

Noidster

[freakshow10mm]

I prefer an automatic for daily carry but have no objections to a revolver and keep one in the truck. The issue I have is that a harder recoiling cartridge is more controllable for me in an auto pistol than a revolver. The 10mm and 357 Mag are ballistic twins. I load both within 25fps of each other. The 10mm auto pistol is more controllable for me than the 357 revolver. Also I'm not as fast at reloading the revolver as the auto pistol.

[LeonCarr]

I find myself leaning more towards revolvers nowadays. Not to be a brand snob, but about the only auto I trust is the Glock.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Ltlabner]

Bear in mind that many experts also choose wheelguns.

Bolderdash.

Folks are acting like an automatic is some highly complex piece of machinery that only a PHd engineer could manage. They ain't that tough to manage.

Serriously, if you become confused and mystified by having to contend with a saftey or decocker then I'd submit that you might not be ready to deal with any weapon beoynd a sharp stick.

The OP said "for a new person wanting to carry a handgun" which implies the OP already knows how to shoot a gun. If he/she doesn't then I'd agree that you prob want to stear clear of the .50 Desert Eagle to learn how to shoot. Then go to the range and rent every gun they have (revolvers and autos alike) and find what works best and learn on it.

But in terms of carry, carrying an auto is no more complex or challenging than a revolver IMO.

Carry what works best for you, what you can employ the quickest & most accuratley and what you will be comfortable to cary all the time (and not be left in the dresser drawer).

[wuchak]

A small, light weight, hammerless revolver like the S&W 642 with 38+p (or 38's if +p recoil is too much although it wouldn't take long to get used to them enough to go to +P), a Mika pocket holster, and a Crimson Trace grip is just about the perfect first carry gun. It's a combination that you will keep forever because it will always have some role to fill in your CCW arsenal. As you try different semi-autos in different calibers the little snubbie will be happy to ride along as a backup gun. It will also be happy to step back into the primary role when you are making a quick run to the store at 11:00 or taking the dog out for a walk or when it's 110 outside. It will also be happy to serve as a car gun. It's a great weapon that will provide a lifetime of service with minimal care.

Load up with some snap caps and use the laser for trigger and target acquisition practice at home. For target acquisition practice point the gun at the target quickly without activating the laser. Use front sight or no sights. Activate the laser to confirm point of aim. For trigger practice squeeze the trigger while the dot remains on target. The skills this will help build will be transferable to any other handgun.

[researchdoc]

Clint Smith says he prefers a revolver for carry....
I carry wheels over autos.. i do carry both but normally carry a wheel over a revolver... Even though there are some seriously reliable autos, I have had and seen some premium factory ammo junk up a feed on an auto... i have never had a wheel lay down. Plus, I like the fact that I can grab the grip and pull the trigger if needed, and it has a trigger pull that requires a deliberate pull that is heavier than a single action semi.
But it is opinion and it is great that there are so many different types of autos and wheels made.. somthing for everyone.

[Goblin]

revolver for a newbie,IMHO.

[lee n. field]

which is the better option?

Depends.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

On the other hand revolvers are pretty fool proof as far as operation.

Functionally, a reliable auto is as dependable as a reliable revolver. Assuming proper ammo of course...and we should all use reliable ammo, right?

Mechanically, a revolver is simpler to operate. Any gun literate person would know that.

Under the stress of a life-death confrontation, simple is better. When in this situation, you're mind is working at hyper speed .... you do not need to overload your brain with the intricacies of operating an autopistol.

Doesn't matter how many years experience you have shooting, I believe the experienced revolver man is better equipped than the experienced auto guy. For the first 5, 6 or 7 shots, anyway.

Just my .02

[woad_yurt]

Certain semi-autos (not all!) are pretty fool proof. Something like a Makarov is rock solid dependable, very flat and very simple. Some other semi-autos require too much study, familiarization and practice for a newbie. On the other hand, a revolver is easy and dependable but it's fatter. I'm talking about carry guns, btw.

For a range gun, one has the luxury of time to spare and do-overs, so the type of gun isn't as crucial as with a carry piece.

[Defensory]

Posted by easyrider6042004:
Doesn't matter how many years experience you have shooting, I believe the experienced revolver man is better equipped than the experienced auto guy. For the first 5, 6 or 7 shots, anyway.

Anecdotal evidence is SO convincing. NOT! :D

At the last handgun course that was given at my range, there were three guys there who were experienced owners of .357 Magnums. I shot both more accurately and faster than all three of them, with a Kimber CDPII that I had borrowed from the head instructor of the course. I'd never shot it before that day, and the .357 Magnum owners were all using their personal weapons with their personal ammo.

My real life experience disproves your hypothesis. ;)

[Defensory]

Posted by easyrider6042004:
Under the stress of a life-death confrontation, simple is better. When in this situation, you're mind is working at hyper speed .... you do not need to overload your brain with the intricacies of operating an autopistol.

I carry my Springfield XD with a round in the chamber at all times. There's no thumb safety or anything else that needs to be disengaged before firing.

Draw, aim and pull the trigger. Pretty simple, at least for a semi-auto owner. :p

[Silvanus]

I find it much easier to teach a new shooter to operate and shoot a revolver. And once they manage the DA trigger, they can shoot just about anything.

[Ltlabner]

I carry my Springfield XD with a round in the chamber at all times. There's no thumb safety or anything else that needs to be disengaged before firing.

I was thinking the same thing. Glocks. M&P's and XD's are pretty much "revolver-esque" in operation. Aquire target, align sights, press trigger, bang. Repeat as needed.

Of corse us silly auto owners will have to contend with racking the slide if needed, however, IMO this is ballenced out by the cumbersome reolading process of the revolver. So that keeps the DAO striker models pretty much on par with the revolvers in terms of ease of operation.

Both are fine choices, but it's up to the individual user as to what works best for them.

I find it much easier to teach a new shooter to operate and shoot a revolver. And once they manage the DA trigger, they can shoot just about anything.

From the text of the original post, he was talking about new to CCW, not new to shooting.

[Silvanus]

From the text of the original post, he was talking about new to CCW, not new to shooting

I know, but somebody who already has a lot of experience with handguns in general wouldn't even bother with that question. He would already know what he likes and shoots well and what not. And safety wouldn't/shouldn't be an issue anymore. The question seems (at least to me) to be for people who don't have much experience with handguns at all.

[Seven For Sure]

Either one. You can get the basics down on either in about 20 minutes. Then you can spend a lot of money on ammo and a lot of time at the range honing your skills. It's worth it and most people find it enjoyable. Welcome!

[Wheeler44]

An anecdote is a short tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident.


Quote:
Posted by easyrider6042004:
Doesn't matter how many years experience you have shooting, I believe the experienced revolver man is better equipped than the experienced auto guy. For the first 5, 6 or 7 shots, anyway.
Anecdotal evidence is SO convincing. NOT!

At the last handgun course that was given at my range, there were three guys there who were experienced owners of .357 Magnums. I shot both more accurately and faster than all three of them,



Anecdotal evidence is SO convincing. NOT!

We finally agree

[TestPilot]

It depends on the person's taste than anything else. So, I can't vote.

Mechanically, a revolver is simpler to operate. Any gun literate person would know that.

Under the stress of a life-death confrontation, simple is better. When in this situation, you're mind is working at hyper speed .... you do not need to overload your brain with the intricacies of operating an autopistol.

What's so more difficult about drawing, aiming and pulling the trigger of a self loading pistol than doing the same with a revolver? There are many self loaders that does not have manual firing inhibitors and trigger of those pistols, such as SIG DAK, have less resistance than that of an average DA revolver.


Doesn't matter how many years experience you have shooting, I believe the experienced revolver man is better equipped than the experienced auto guy. For the first 5, 6 or 7 shots, anyway.
How so?

[global247]

To me a glock, xd, m&p, etc... autos like that seem pretty easy and reliable to shoot, how is a revolver any simpler to fire in a stressfull situation than auto with no lever safeties? I just think that with an auto you get more rounds.

[loneviking]

Say what you want, but to me there is a satisfaction to pulling the hammer back on a full size revolver that's right up there with racking the slide on a pump shotgun. I just can't get it with autoloaders....

BTW, I get REALLY tired of hearing how dependable Makarovs are. I have a CZ 82 that reguarly jams no matter how well I've cleaned it and oiled it. No burrs that I can see or feel. My .357 has never once jammed on me and I never had to ask 'is this reliable ammo?'---it'll eat anything!

[Silvanus]

A CZ 82 is not a Makarov.

[loneviking]

A CZ 82 is not a Makarov.

You tell me what you're calling a Makarov! A CZ 82/83 is most certainly a Makarov which refers to the design of the gun.

[rcmodel]

Tis not!

The only thing they have in common with a Makarov is the caliber, and that they are both blow-back action pistols fielded by one-time communist governments.

Not one part on a CZ-82/83 is interchangeable with a MAK, or even close.

rcmodel

[RustyShackelford]

I'd buy a new DA only Ruger SP-101 .357mag or a Taurus CIA/da only .38spl. Learn the basics then move up to a well made DA only semi auto pistol, like the SIG/DAK model P-229R or a HK LEM, P-2000, :D.

[TestPilot]

I'd buy a new DA only Ruger SP-101 .357mag or a Taurus CIA/da only .38spl. Learn the basics then move up to a well made DA only semi auto pistol, like the SIG/DAK model P-229R or a HK LEM, P-2000, .

I believe "learning with a revolver to move up to a self loader" being a proper path is a myth.

There's nothing about proper shooting that can be learned with a revolver that cannot be learned with a self loader. If the shooter wants to shoot a self loader, just starting with a self loader will save time and money.

And, there's nothing about a self loader that makes me feel as if it's a "higher level" that requires an intermediate training gun before shooting one.

[poet]

Wouldn't it depend upon the situation? If expected threat is minimal and clothing attire dictates very light, I would carry in accordance to these factors. Pool party at clubhouse would be different than cook out at public park in a less than desirable neighborhood.

[3KillerBs]

I can't vote.

I don't like shooting revolvers. But I'm almost certainly going to end up carrying a Taurus 85 because that's the gun that fulfills about 90% of my requirements and that's better than any of the others do.

And if I carry it I have to shoot it regularly because I think it would be very irresponsible to carry a gun that I couldn't be confident of shooting well. Especially since its inevitable that my marksmanship would deteriorate in a stress situation.

[3KillerBs]

IMO, the "complexity" issue is way overblown.

Anyone who can reliably operate the 3-5 remote controls the ordinary American uses to operate the TV, VCR/DVD player, the satellite/cable box, and, perhaps, the TIVO system is more than capable of grasping the theory and practice of shooting a semi-automatic.

Its not rocket science.

[ArcherandShooter]

I believe it was the venerable Tamara who noted that the average American woman manages quite nicely all the intricate mechanical and kinesthic demands involved in driving a car to the gun store, whereupon she is told that a semiauto is too complicated for her.

:barf::barf::barf:

My first (my very own) handgun was an XD-40. The second was a Bersa Thunder .380 because I needed something concealable through a Houston summer. Traded it for a m37. Eventually traded the XD for a BHP :D:D:D After that at some point, bought a Kimber Ultra Carry II. The Kimber, a new Bersa Thunder .380, and the m37 alternate as my carry guns. The Kimber is the best of the lot because I *always* hit where I'm aiming. But it's bulky for summer wear. The Bersa is second choice; and when I'm wearing something really lightweight, the m37.

Get what feels good to your hand, what you can shoot well. There is NO one right answer to this.

Springmom

[Glockman17366]

Revolver for me...

Although I'll carry a semi-auto (Glock 19 or Kahr MK9) occasionally, the great majority of the time I pocket carry. Small frame revolvers, IMHO, are more reliable then smaller semi-autos and can handle a more powerful round (.38 +P).
As far as controls, I don't think it matters. Many small semi-autos depend upon a long hard trigger pull (as do DA revolvers) rather then a safety. But small semi-autos may jam (FTE, FTF or a stovepipe) which do take considerable practice to clear (and a self defense situation isn't a good time to practice!). Jams may occur in a revolver but are extremely infrequent. I've read about them, but in 30 years of shooting, never experienced a jam (light strikes, yes). Jams could be a bear to correct, but light strikes...well, just keep pulling the trigger.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Defensory]

Posted by Wheeler44:
An anecdote is a short tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident. We finally agree

No, we still don't agree. I certainly hope your shooting skills are better than your knowledge of the English language. :neener:

You have confused an anecdote with anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is defined as:

"Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"

easyrider made the the totally unscientific and completely unsubstantiated casual observation that "the experienced revolver man is better equipped than the experienced auto guy."

I responded with an actual event that occurred at my range, which was witnessed by multiple individuals, that disproved easyrider's baseless opinion.

easyrider is most certainly entitled to his opinion, but opinion is all it is.

The fact that "experienced auto guys" like Eric Grauffel, Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett etc. can outshoot any "experienced revolver guys" on the planet---as is easily verifiable by even the most casual perusal of the results of major IPSC, USPSA and IDPA events over the course of the histories of these organizations---is further solid evidence that easyrider's opinion cannot be substantiated. ;)

[Defensory]

3KillerBs:
IMO, the "complexity" issue is way overblown.

Anyone who can reliably operate the 3-5 remote controls the ordinary American uses to operate the TV, VCR/DVD player, the satellite/cable box, and, perhaps, the TIVO system is more than capable of grasping the theory and practice of shooting a semi-automatic.

Its not rocket science.

AMEN! :D

[Snapping Twig]

I started with a revolver, but I was pretty much self taught - old school.

These days I still believe that a revolver is easier to learn to shoot with - getting your feet on the ground and building a good foundation.

If you have the luxury of attending a school like Gunsite, then with supervision you can learn with either revolver or semi-auto.

I have been training nuggets to use the 1911 for the past few years with great success, but we do 20 hours of classroom before we ever handle a live round.

While I am not able to have a CCW (California) I do have an opinion on which I would prefer. For woods carry ancillary to hunting and general all around safety I select a 3" .44 mag. I can shoot it well with either magnum or specials and the extra power is useful in the field.

For urban needs, I vastly prefer the 1911. I have on occasion carried this way and I am alive today because I did so. I never needed to fire a round, but let's say that I had total confidence in it when 2 scumbags confronted me and my then pregnant wife.

So, in short, carry what you feel most confident with and remember, it's all about the practice. You'll get out what you put in.

[DougDubya]

Revolvers - not because they're simpler (jeez, if you can't figure a Glock or a P229 RDAK out, you're not even going to know how to open a cylinder).

Revolvers because they're far less finicky about ammunition and a little more forgiving of bad form and technique. You can also go much lower recoil with almost any revolver out there. A .44 Special-stuffed 629 with an underlug barrel is a tad expensive, but can be hammered all day long.

[DougDubya]

Defensory notes truly - his unused previous to the encounter Kimber 1911 outshot three .357 Magnums.

'Course, the Kimber has a lighter trigger (faster) and a far lower bore axis (more accurate).

But we're talking locked and cocked Condition One versus double action only revolver shooting.

There's enough people out there who wouldn't feel good about locked and cocked, enough for Para Ordnance to develop the LDA and everyone ELSE making DA autos.

[Defensory]

Posted by TestPilot:
I believe "learning with a revolver to move up to a self loader" being a proper path is a myth.

There's nothing about proper shooting that can be learned with a revolver that cannot be learned with a self loader. If the shooter wants to shoot a self loader, just starting with a self loader will save time and money.

And, there's nothing about a self loader that makes me feel as if it's a "higher level" that requires an intermediate training gun before shooting one.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

If you spend a lot of time learning on a revolver with a typical long, 8 to 9 lb. double action trigger pull---your "muscle memory" will make it more difficult to adapt later to the noticeably lighter and shorter trigger pull of a 1911, for instance. Reloading etc. is also a completely different ballgame with a semi-auto.

You will have picked up "habits" particular to the revolver, which means you will have to work harder and longer to break yourself of those habits when you attempt to learn with and master a semi-auto.

Learn with the same type of handgun that you intend to carry and use on a regular basis, whether it be semi-auto or revolver.

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
Revolvers - not because they're simpler (jeez, if you can't figure a Glock or a P229 RDAK out, you're not even going to know how to open a cylinder).

Revolvers because they're far less finicky about ammunition and a little more forgiving of bad form and technique. You can also go much lower recoil with almost any revolver out there. A .44 Special-stuffed 629 with an underlug barrel is a tad expensive, but can be hammered all day long.

I'm not trying to pick at you or anything, Doug, and you certainly don't have to take my word for it if you don't want to.

But I'm quite certain that if you ask some of the "old-timers" you know and trust here at THR, you'll find that as a GENERAL RULE, semi-autos have LESS recoil than revolvers. That's because the slide on the autoloader absorbs a noticeable amount of the recoil.

I believe you'll also find that the long 8 to 9 lb. double action trigger pull on a revolver is actually LESS forgiving than the trigger pull on most semi-autos, especially single actions.

I've also found that modern (1970's and newer) major brand semi-autos are NOT that finicky with major brand factory ammo such as Federal, Remington, Winchester etc.---including most hollow points.

If you want to use hollow points or handloads/reloads, you should of course abide by manufacturer recommendations, and experiment with different rounds if necessary.

Also, again not trying to nitpick, but I believe you'll find the correct terminology for 1911 "condition one" is "cocked and locked"---NOT "locked and cocked". ;)

[easyg]

I have found that newbies usually shoot auto-loaders much better than they shoot revolvers.

[Wheeler44]

Defensory says;

You have confused an anecdote with anecdotal evidence.

The expression anecdotal evidence has two quite distinct meanings.

(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity: the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy or untrue.

(2) Evidence which may itself be true and verifiable is used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence.

I certainly hope your shooting skills are better than your knowledge of the English language.

I am not worried about about either.

[Squidward]

Ahh, the eternal ultimately unanswerable question. :)

There are many experienced people on many gun forums that have both revolvers and semi-autos. Even they can't decide..


Get a gun safe first. You're headed down the slippery slope of gun ownership...

[DougDubya]

Defensory - wasn't meaning to pick.

I supported your assessment that a 1911 was faster and more accurate than a DA revolver too.

But revolvers appeal to my soul, and they work well enough. I wouldn't mind if the Mateba barrel setup, which places the bore axis in a 1911 position, became more popular to address certain recoil issues.

As for recoil - easiest way to get a .357 Magnum's recoil controlled is to slip in a cylinder of .38 Specials. Try putting softball .45 ammo into a 1911, and you end up racking the slide unless you change out the springs.

As for the cocked and locked mix-up, I'm halfway through a novel due on the 30th. I'm using up my syntax for my paid job, dude.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

This thread has so much information, wisdom perhap(?) and insight some of which I have overlooked or forgotten.

While the original topic is, for me moot, all I have now are revolvers, I still follow this thread. I ended a 20-year love affair with the 1911 three months ago due to my hip's growing reluctance to pick up brass:)

This question has intrigued and will always intrigue many handgun lovers, newbie or otherwise.

[Defensory]

Posted by easyg:
I have found that newbies usually shoot auto-loaders much better than they shoot revolvers.

As a general rule, I agree.

At the most recent concealed carry course at my range, not one semi-auto shooter failed to qualify. Multiple revolver shooters failed to qualify, even though they only made up about 20% of the students.

The long, heavy 8 to 9 pound trigger pull of the revolvers was the culprit in virtually every case.

One guy with a .357 Magnum failed to qualify, and tried to claim that there was something wrong with his gun, which just happened to be his own personal weapon.

One of the intructors picked up the weapon and fired a shot at the target, making an almost perfect hit in the center of the bullseye. He set down the weapon and remarked "Nothing wrong with the gun." :D

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
But revolvers appeal to my soul, and they work well enough. I wouldn't mind if the Mateba barrel setup, which places the bore axis in a 1911 position, became more popular to address certain recoil issues.

I don't have a problem with the fact that some people prefer revolvers. I've owned a few myself over the years. More power to you, Doug. :)

The revolver owners I have a problem with (and I'm NOT claiming that YOU personally think like this), are the ones who make claims like:

1. "All I need is my revolver and six rounds, and I can handle ANY situation that a high capacity semi-auto can."

2. "Revolvers never fail to fire or jam. Six fer sure!"

3. "Semi-autos are unreliable jam-o-matics."

4. "Semi-autos are too complicated."

5. "Semi-auto advocates are a bunch of Rambos."

6. "Semi-auto advocates are paranoid."

As for recoil - easiest way to get a .357 Magnum's recoil controlled is to slip in a cylinder of .38 Specials.

Isn't that a significant compromise in a critical self-defense situation, Doug? The .357 was designed primarily for law enforcement work and personal self-defense. Many people buy it precisely because it is so powerful, but a significant percentage find that the cartridge is just too much for them to handle.

If you have to "downsize" to a .38 in order to be able to handle the recoil, barrel rise, muzzle blast and muzzle flash---IMHO you're defeating the purpose of purchasing a .357 in the first place. ;)

[machinisttx]

I own...eh...I don't even want to think about it...wheelguns and only three autoloaders. I learned to shoot with a very rare Navy stamped Victory model S&W .38 special and a ruger single six. I'm somewhat partial to revolvers, mainly because they have never failed me due to anything other than bad ammunition(and one with a weak mainspring, easy fix). They CAN fail, but more often than not, it's defective user syndrome or bad ammunition.

Generally speaking, revolvers have a better trigger in the single action mode than most autoloaders. With that said, the DA trigger on a lot of autoloaders is lighter/better than a lot of wheelguns. From those that I've measured, DA pull on a revolver is usually in the 13-14 pound range from the factory. Most autoloaders are in the 10 or so pound range double action. Either one can be lightened significantly with a good action job.

Wheelguns are not dependent upon a seperate feeding device, which if lost or damaged, renders the gun nothing more than a self ejecting and awkward single shot. Wheelguns also aren't dependent upon a firm grip for proper function. They don't require extensive practice for the multiple failure correction drills that absolutely need to be automatic when using an autoloader. They're as simple as aim gun, pull trigger, go bang. Some autoloaders have this type of simplicity, until they fail to function, at which point we're back to failure correction routines. With a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. If it doesn't fire, reload.

The usual complaints with revolvers is that they have limited capacity and are slow to load. Well...it seems to me that limited capacity means you have more incentive to actually hit the target, which means more practice actually shooting the gun----and "slow to reload" means you haven't practiced loading enough. Have the gun converted for use with moon clips and practice loading, a lot. One solid hit is worth a lot more than 15 misses.

Revolvers are usually more flexible in terms of the size of the grip area. If the size/shape doesn't suit you, a single screw stands between you and a different size/shape of grip.

Make sure it fits your hand
Shoot what you carry
Carry what you shoot
Practice no matter what you decide on


Edit-- I carry a Ruger SP101 in .357 magnum. Occasionally I carry a S&W M66, also in .357 magnum. On very rare occasions, I carry a Springfield Micro Compact in .45 ACP.

[Ltlabner]

Well...it seems to me that limited capacity means you have more incentive to actually hit the target,

Except that in case after case the ability to hit the target is shown to be greatly reduced in a high-stress situation. Even well trained people can lose some percentage of their skills when the poop hits the ventilation.

The incetive may he higher to hit with only 6, but the price of missing is signifigantly higher with missing one with a revolver.

Obviously none of us *want* to miss any shots in a SD situation, however, if you think it's going to be the same as a day at the range I'd sumit you are going to miss far more than you'll hit in a real life scenario.

[DougDubya]

Nah, Defensory. The police had developed the "perfect" .38 Special load in the 70's with the "FBI load" (or Chicago Load, or just the plain old 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint). Cops and feds across the country didn't worry about its effectiveness. They just wanted more shots and better triggers.

Though, all things considered, I'd rather have a Beretta 92. Must... resist... S&W Night Guards! 'Course, a Scanadium framed Model 59 or Model 45 Night Guard gets me thinking.

[machinisttx]

Except that in case after case the ability to hit the target is shown to be greatly reduced in a high-stress situation. Even well trained people can lose some percentage of their skills when the poop hits the ventilation.

The incetive may he higher to hit with only 6, but the price of missing is signifigantly higher with missing one with a revolver.

Obviously none of us *want* to miss any shots in a SD situation, however, if you think it's going to be the same as a day at the range I'd sumit you are going to miss far more than you'll hit in a real life scenario.

Nice how you ignored the last part of that sentence.

[rmarcustrucker]

No one has ever gone wrong with a revolver. You can always upgrade later. I've carried a revolver over 60% of the time and I love it. It's more comfortable, easier to operate and it will last for generations. Nothing wrong with autos but I find myself carring .357 most days and then glock 27 in .40 cal most other days with a few days of xd 45 in .45acp to round off the days i'm with my wife.

[rswartsell]

As far as recommendations go, we should all make them with a bit of caution if we do not know all the specifics, but here's my two cents worth.

If by newbie you mean new to firearms in general there are a lot of things to consider before coming to the conclusion that you are at the point to choose what handgun will end up being best for you. You must first learn firearms safety to the point that it becomes second nature. You must then learn proper shooting technique and achieve a basic level of marksmanship (granted this will change somewhat depending on what type of weapon but you can learn the sight acquisition, trigger control, posture, follow up on any handgun). You should also invest in a SD class and get the idea about what is legal for you and what to avoid.

Beginning to "carry' before these minimums can be a formula for disaster. Invest in a good quality (not expensive) revolver to keep the variables to a minimum and it should retain enough resale value for you to change whan you have with much practice mastered the learning curve. You can then make a much more informed decision and do so more effectively and safer.

I would say you are at least 1,000 rounds away from deciding on a "carry gun". These are my thoughts and are not intended to offend anyone.

[f4t9r]

I like both and you will most likely have both at some point.
Go shoot them and make a decision, then second quess yourself and go buy the other one. Thats how you end up with both.

[Headless]

When it comes down to it, auto vs. revolver probably doesn't matter for a CCW'er - until you have a failure and have to deal with it.

Sure, it IS possible for a revolver to jam up and be unusable, but it's much MUCH more rare, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about small semi-auto's which can be finicky.

Someone who doesn't have experience with autos will not have the natural inclination to drop the mag, rack the slide to clear malfunction, grab new mag, insert, rack slide bang bang bang. They also have to have the new mag handy and easily accessible or their scrounging on the ground for the mag they just dropped.

If you want to look at 'most encounters', the reload is a secondary issue because in 'most encounters' you'll be reloading after you put the other guy on the ground, or he ran away, or you ran away. Malfunctions in small auto's could happen in those key first couple of shots where you need everything to go perfectly.

Someone will come along with an example of a small semiauto that they own that has been FLAWLESS across thousands of rounds of range time, and i recognize that there are reliable compact semiautos - i own a 3913LS that is a beautiful gun and i'd trust my life to it - but if i had the choice to pull one or the other in a split second, i'd go for the 642 EVERY time.

Things that don't normally bother you at the range will bother you when the SHTF, like accidentally dropping the magazine because you gripped it badly on the draw and your hand pushed the mag release button... accidentally forgetting to flip off the safety (if your gun has one) or getting a crappy grip and causing a malfunction/failure to feed/extract that you never would have seen at the range with a normal grip. Revolvers don't suffer in the same way as semi-autos, and they can be reliable fired from inside a pocket where a semi would jam up on clothe after the first shot or 2. It is totally true that with training you can be plenty quick at clearing a malfunction in an auto...but a new shooter will not have that training and may or may not take it upon themselves to get it. If i knew the person in question, i might recommend a small semiauto for them; but without knowledge of the person directly, i'd have a hard time recommending one over a small revolver.

[Ltlabner]

Nice how you ignored the last part of that sentence.

I have no idea what your post means.

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
Nah, Defensory. The police had developed the "perfect" .38 Special load in the 70's with the "FBI load" (or Chicago Load, or just the plain old 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoint). Cops and feds across the country didn't worry about its effectiveness. They just wanted more shots and better triggers.


The same "perfect" .38 Special load that didn't get the job done during the infamous FBI Miami Shootout of 1986. Revolvers were still the official primary duty issue weapon of the FBI at that point in time. After the shootout, the FBI promptly retired the revolver as an issue sidearm.

Almost immediately after the shootout, a multitude of police and sheriff's departments across the country rapidly began following suit. Today, a major or medium size city/county law enforcement agency that issues revolvers is uncommon. Even many small agencies have made and continue to make the switch to semi-autos.

The revolver has been virtually extinct as both a law enforcement and military sidearm in every single country in Europe, for several decades now.

21st century semi-autos are extremely reliable, and offer firepower advantages that a revolver cannot match.

It's also important to note that in the case of the FBI and the vast majority of law enforcement agencies that have adopted semis, that the demand for them originated from the rank-and-file (RAF) officers and the police unions/patrolmen's associations that actively represent the RAF.

The agents and officers in the street DEMANDED semi-autos, because their low capacity, slow reloading revolvers were simply no match for gangbangers and other criminals packing semi-auto weapons.

Not surprisingly, it was ultra-liberals like former New York City mayor David Dinkins and his liberal crony police commissioner, who fought tooth, fang and claw to deny NYPD the right to carry semi-autos in the early 90's.

The same was true in many other cities around the country---liberal mayors and police commissioners repeatedly sought to deny RAF officers the right to carry semi-autos, even though they were frequently being outgunned in shooting situations by criminals with semi-autos.

[gtmerkley]

both one for eatch hand

[win85shooter]

For a new person wanting to carry a handgun, which is the better option?

Revolver. Everytime you pull the trigger it goes "bang". If it doesn't, pull the trigger again.

[Defensory]

Posted by win85shooter:
Revolver. Everytime you pull the trigger it goes "bang". If it doesn't, pull the trigger again.

Really?! :rolleyes:

Here's a revolver malfunction at a cowboy shoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

If you have the volume loud enough on your speakers, you can hear several clicks as the revolver repeatedly fails to fire.

[teknoid]

Revolver or auto? The only legitimate answer I can come up with is- whatever floats your boat.

It's a matter of personal preference. I usually carry a revolver, but don't hesitate in switching to an auto now and then. As far as what's best for a new shooter, only practice will tell. There's not a nickels worth of difference to me. Accuracy and performance have been almost identical.

I will say that the retired lady who took the ccdw qualification next to my position shot tighter groups than I did. She was using a .38 snubbie, while I used a M&P 9mm semi. That lady could shoot, blue hair and all!

[BullpupBen]

Being 18, my experience with pistols is limited, but if and when I can carry I am gonna carry a revolver and heres why:

1. The most important thing with any tool you trust your life too is that it works, and theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail compared to an auto, the only thing more reliable is a derringer.

2. No worrying about cocking it and all that- just point at your target and start squeezing.

The only negatives:
-increased recoil
-harder to conceal due to increased length and the cylinder profile
-comparatively low capacity and hard to reload under extreme stress.

So weigh your options, but I'd take reliability over anything when your life's on the line.

[Ltlabner]

1. The most important thing with any tool you trust your life too is that it works, and theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail compared to an auto, the only thing more reliable is a derringer.

2. No worrying about cocking it and all that- just point at your target and start squeezing.

Statement 1 is flat out false. Revolvers are not immune from failure. They are certinaly less prone than autos but saying "theres almost no way a DA revolver can fail" is a complety inaccurate.

Statement 2: Striker fired automatics and SA/DA autos with decockers do not require cocking prior to firing. Chamber a round (decock if appropriate), holster and then aquire target, align sights and press trigger. No more complicated that a DAO revolver no? If you carry them in condition 1 there's no "cocking it and all that" prior to use.

Revolvers are great and I'm not touting autos over revolvers, however, the continued myth that automatics are somehow so complex as stymie anyone short of a PhD rocket scientist from operating them is just that....a myth.

[DougDubya]

The same "perfect" .38 Special load that didn't get the job done during the infamous FBI Miami Shootout of 1986. Revolvers were still the official primary duty issue weapon of the FBI at that point in time. After the shootout, the FBI promptly retired the revolver as an issue sidearm.

Really? Does your fairy tale version of the FBI firefight show 158-grain SWC-HP's in vital, life ending areas of Platt and Matix?

Mireles put three into each which became the end of the fight.

Who else hit them?

The revolver has been virtually extinct as both a law enforcement and military sidearm in every single country in Europe, for several decades now.

Europe. Where freedom has been abandoned, and violent young rioters murder unarmed civilians at a whim. If Europe made it fashionable to breathe oxygen, I'd get surgery to replace my lungs with something that breathed something else.

It's also important to note that in the case of the FBI and the vast majority of law enforcement agencies that have adopted semis, that the demand for them originated from the rank-and-file (RAF) officers and the police unions/patrolmen's associations that actively represent the RAF.

The agents and officers in the street DEMANDED semi-autos, because their low capacity, slow reloading revolvers were simply no match for gangbangers and other criminals packing semi-auto weapons.

You're talking capacity and shootability, not "fight-stopping power." Even the low capacity Model 39 by Smith and Wesson increased the ability of their users to hit targets to 66% as opposed to 25% for the rank and file Barney Fife brigade.

RAF officers

Royal Air Force? I'd tell the limeys to sod off too. If they're not American citizens, they shouldn't even have toothpicks. 'Course, this is for sheer hate of the nanny state under the Houses of Lords and Commons, those unforgivable thieves of liberty.

[jad0110]

The long, heavy 8 to 9 pound trigger pull of the revolvers was the culprit in virtually every case.

One guy with a .357 Magnum failed to qualify, and tried to claim that there was something wrong with his gun, which just happened to be his own personal weapon.

One of the intructors picked up the weapon and fired a shot at the target, making an almost perfect hit in the center of the bullseye. He set down the weapon and remarked "Nothing wrong with the gun."

Actually, that tells me that it isn't the 8 to 9 pound trigger pull, but the user (software problem). DA wheelguns have a way of highlighting poor trigger control better than your typical semiauto (as Jerry Miculek himself has pointed out). IMO, the 1911 platform in particular is good at covering up bad trigger technique. That's one reason why I love a DA 22 for training purposes. Most people should see an improvement in their groups after practicing with a high quality DA 22. I know I did. I've gotten to the point now where I find the 12 lb pull of my 642 to be "reasonable" :) . 8 lbs feels light to me. Maybe my fingers are just Incredible Hulk strong.

My 642 could use some tuning though, to improve the break and slicken it up. Of course, that can be said of just about any handgun, revolver or auto. Had an XD9 with a trigger that I rated somewhere between "dreadful" and "junky" :o . When I first got my Springfield Armory 1911, the trigger mechanism (trigger bow specifically) felt like it had kitty litter in it :p . Rough, inconsistent let off too.

Certainly, a DA revolver pull isn't everyone's cup of tea. Just like DA/SA autos drive me nuts.

YMMV / to each his own.

---

As a first gun, as I said earlier, go with what feels best to you. Just remember with an auto to FIRST drop the loaded mag, then SECOND rack the slide to de-chamber the round. Don't do it the other way around!

[DougDubya]

Something I just transcribed from my novel notes, which applies to my opinion about the whole "autos are soooooo much better than revolvers" thing.

Laserka packed a bag, slipping her Makarov back onto her belt's inside the waistband holster. She draped her sweater over the handgun's butt to conceal it. She tucked another weapon, a tiny Glock 26, into her purse. She added two spare 15-shot magazines originally designed for the slightly larger Glock 19. Technically, the tiny Austrian auto was considered a better design than her trusted old Makarov, smaller in length and height, chambered for a more powerful cartridge, and holding 11 shots right off of the bat. Still, the Russian Mak was a flat, and its butt had room for all of her fingers on its comfortable grip. It just felt nicer than the teeny Glock. The 9mm Mak had never let her down. Laserka knew sentimentality toward a tool meant to keep her live was considered foolish, but she had an attachment that translated into comfort and superior skill.

For some people, familiarity trumps higher technology. I'm one of them. If that makes me a backwards fool, then I'll at least go to my reward with a favored item, not an uncomfortable compromise, in my hand.

[WVMountainBoy]

As my little signature may denote, I'm a fan of wheel guns. I've found them to be the most reliable machines that I've ever dealt with (pistols, cars, rifles, and computers to name a few) the only thing I've fooled with that was more rock solid was my NEF single shot 12 gauge. They do have their limitations, unless you're willing to dump a good bit into one of the 7 or 8 shot wheels, you're limited to 5 or 6, but the way I see it, its 5 or 6 that you can really depend on.

[machinisttx]

I have no idea what your post means.

Then I suggest you go back and read the last part of the sentence you originally quoted, which states that a person needs to practice more if they carry a revolver.

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
Really? Does your fairy tale version of the FBI firefight show 158-grain SWC-HP's in vital, life ending areas of Platt and Matix?

Mireles put three into each which became the end of the fight.

Who else hit them?

Doug continues to display his virtual complete ignorance of the FBI Miami shootout of 1986. :neener:

My version of events is fully supported and documented by Dr. William French Anderson, a world renown geneticist and forensic pathologist at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine.

At the time Mireles shot them, both Platt and Matix had been already completely incapacitated by other shots. Mireles was able to walk up to the car, stick his gun in the window and shoot both of the completely immobile perpetrators at near-point blank range.

A .22 could've done the job under those circumstances.

Platt was unconscious and Matix may have already been dead before Mireles ever fired a shot into the car.

With his 9mm semi-automatic, Agent Dove had done the lion's share of damage to Platt earlier in the shootout, when he made three solid hits as Platt attempted to exit the stolen vehicle through the passenger side window. One of Dove's hits went through Platt's arm and penetrated one of his lungs, coming to rest near his heart.

[DougDubya]

Which goes in complete opposition to EVERY OTHER ACCOUNT of the gunfight.

Dove hit Platt once.

You said the .38 Special round failed, but you only cite in your particular fairy tale that it was Dove, with his much superior autoloader, who supposedly did all the damage.

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
You're talking capacity and shootability, not "fight-stopping power." Even the low capacity Model 39 by Smith and Wesson increased the ability of their users to hit targets to 66% as opposed to 25% for the rank and file Barney Fife brigade.

Yes, and when the Smith Model 39 went on the market in 1955, virtually every law enforcement agency in the country was using revolvers. ;)

Thanks for pointing out that the "rank and file" revolver-toting Barney Fifers who had only been scoring 25% with their markedly inferior revolvers, immediately improved their hit percentage by more than two and a half times after they adopted semi-automatics! :D

Just one more proof of the inherent natural superiority of even the early semi-automatics, over the dated 19th century technology of the revolver. With today's technology having widened the gap between semi-autos and revolvers even more, the semi-auto's technological and practical advantages have become virtually insurmountable.

Thus it's no big surprise that thousands of federal, state, county and local law enforcement agencies have switched to semi-autos in the last few decades.

[david_the_greek]

I picked up a S&W 442 over a keltec P3AT. Might I regret it in the future? Maybe. I like the 442, though I can't seem to hit poop with it yet. Definitely something for me to get used to... oh well more practice right :) In all honesty though, I LOVE my 1911, and like others said, the trigger is much different. For me, it does cover up my crappy trigger skills. But I shoot well with it. The revolver, head shots on the big human target at 7-10(?) yards, though not seemingly placed anywhere purposely, thats just where they ended up after I pointed in the direction. I hope I can get to love my 442 and shoot it well, the things conceals like a vial of coke up a smugglers butt ;)

[Geronimo45]

At the time Mireles shot them, both Platt and Matix had been already completely incapacitated by other shots. Mireles was able to walk up to the car, stick his gun in the window and shoot both of the completely immobile perpetrators at near-point blank range.
Not according to this, which certainly appears to be quoting Anderson.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Go to:
"IV. The Final Fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove’s Car"
Don't appear to have been 'completely incapacitated'.

[Claude Clay]

if you are gonna carry 24/7 by your 3rd gun you will likely have a 642. so get it 1st. some people are naturals with coordination and guns but for the many, get your feet wet with a revolver first.

[Ltlabner]

Then I suggest you go back and read the last part of the sentence you originally quoted, which states that a person needs to practice more if they carry a revolver.

I read it when I made my first responce to your post.

It totally ignores my point that no matter how much you practice you are likely to lose *some* amount of ability in a high stress situation. You may lose very little so that it makes no difference if you have 1 round or 1000 rounds.

But even with practice it is possible to lose some abilities during a real gunfight. Face it, even some highly trained operators can go to outerspace when in the thick of things (or at the very least do things that reduce their chances of COM hits). Less abilities due to stress & phisological responces means greater possibiliy for missing.

And having less ammo (i.e. having a revolver) means every miss has greater signifiance than a pistol with more ammo.

You seem to be pitting your incentive to make hits with a revolver against millions of years of phisological responces by humans. In my opinion, that's a horrable bet.

Revolver is a fine choice for carry, I just didn't agree with your one comment in your original post.

[Defensory]

According to Geronimo45's own source:

"By this time Mireles had reached the driver’s side door of Grogan/Dove’s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt’s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord. Dr. Anderson observes that the wound path of this bullet through Platt’s body could only have occurred if Platt were lying on his back on the front seat.

Even if Platt wasn't COMPLETELY incapacitated, it certainly appears from your own source that he was certainly very close to being in that condition.

I'm extremely doubtful that Platt, a heavily armed former U.S. Army Special Forces soldier, would just lie down on his back and let somebody walk up and stick a gun in the window of the car and shoot him at near-point blank range, if Platt was NOT at least very nearly completely incapacitated.

The FBI, the medical examiner who did the original autopsy, and Dr. Anderson---ALL agree that agent Dove had earlier shot Platt with a 9mm round that had gone through his arm into his chest, penetrated his lung and lodged within an inch of his heart.

Platt had been shot 9 times before Mireles ever converged on the car and shot him at near-point blank range, including a round of 12-gauge buckshot that hit him in both of his feet, causing profuse bleeding.

Matix had taken a round in the head earlier in the fight, which incapacitated him for most of the shootout.

So even if Platt and Matix were not COMPLETELY incapacitated, they were both darn sure VERY NEAR death BEFORE Mireles approached and shot them.

As I stated earlier, .22LR semi-auto rounds could've got the job done at near-point blank range on perps who were already very near death. So the fact that Mireles was using a "wonder wheelie" is virtually irrelevant.

And according to the head of the FBI Firearms Training Unit at that time, the Miami shootout was the primary reason that the FBI DUMPED revolvers and went to high capacity semi-autos as their primary official issue sidearms.

[H2O MAN]

Revolver or Auto

Unless you are going Cowboy, I say go with the Auto right out of the box.
I purchased my first pistol around 1985 - it was a Glock 17.
I had fired a 1911 prior to that.

9 out of 10 Grandmothers agree.

http://www.basildoneye2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gunqeen.jpg

[MrBorland]

My version of events is fully supported and documented by Dr. William French Anderson, a world renown geneticist and forensic pathologist at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine.

Not to go off topic, but I've known about French Anderson professionally since 1990 or so. He was a biochemist/molecular biologist and pediatrician (he's now in prison for sexual abuse of a minor). AFAIK, he's not been trained as a forensic pathologist, and since he chose to publish his account of the FBI shootout as a book, I assume its content and accuracy was never validated by the peer review process. Probably a wise choice on his part, since he likely has no more expertise in this area than any other MD.

Though he made an important contribution to the then-fledgling field of Gene Therapy, he was known by many of his peers to not be above a little self-promotion and exaggeration. I haven't read his account, but I'd be very cautious about taking it as definitive. Just an FYI.

[btg3]

On the other hand revolvers are pretty fool proof as far as operation.A revolver requires more practice to maintain sight picture with a DA trigger. In general, newbies will hit their target more easily with a semi-auto handgun.

As for complexity, if you can drive a car and/or use a cell phone, you can learn the manual of arms for your choice of revolver or semi-auto. Neither is rocket science. Determine your own preference and don't adopt someone else's.

Reliability? Avoid cheapo stuff whether revolver or semi-auto and you'll be fine.

[machinisttx]

I read it when I made my first responce to your post.

It totally ignores my point that no matter how much you practice you are likely to lose *some* amount of ability in a high stress situation. You may lose very little so that it makes no difference if you have 1 round or 1000 rounds.

But even with practice it is possible to lose some abilities during a real gunfight. Face it, even some highly trained operators can go to outerspace when in the thick of things (or at the very least do things that reduce their chances of COM hits). Less abilities due to stress & phisological responces means greater possibiliy for missing.

And having less ammo (i.e. having a revolver) means every miss has greater signifiance than a pistol with more ammo.

You seem to be pitting your incentive to make hits with a revolver against millions of years of phisological responces by humans. In my opinion, that's a horrable bet.

Revolver is a fine choice for carry, I just didn't agree with your one comment in your original post.

I will, in no way, deny that stress induces another factor into the equation. However, I see a lot of fail in the logic of "high capacity saves the day". A well practiced revolver user isn't at much disadvantage--if any.

[DougDubya]

Defensory - you were still comparing apples to giant blue elephants when you were talking about the "failed stopping power of the .38 FBI load" as the reason for going to high capacity, rapid fire, easier shooting autoloaders.

But then, you have some sort of agenda that ascribes suicidal ideations to folks who carry revolvers. As such, keep twisting the conversation, moving the goal posts, and continue obfuscation that a GENETICIST has more information about a gunfight than the agents involved, on scene forensic analysts, and guys who spoke to EVERYONE INVOLVED.

French Anderson might have been the father of DNA fingerprinting, but he probably couldn't tell a bullet from his own dingleberry, as Mr.Borland pointed out.

[win85shooter]

Posted by win85shooter:
Revolver. Everytime you pull the trigger it goes "bang". If it doesn't, pull the trigger again.
Really?!

Here's a revolver malfunction at a cowboy shoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xl92P_mVDM

If you have the volume loud enough on your speakers, you can hear several clicks as the revolver repeatedly fails to fire.

Defensory................If I'm not mistaken, the video that you show with the misfires is both handloads (probably) and by all the smoke definitely BP. I guess I should have prefaced my comment with " use factory defensive loads for reliability". I would also recommend a DA revolver over a SA revolver although there are some very accomplished SA shooters out there........just not good reloaders.

Mike

[simpleguy]

I do both so I didn't vote. I love to carry my M&P .40, but hey....I occasionally compromise the way I dress so, I started to carry my Taurus Model 85. I have about a 50/50 split between revolver and autoloader carry now. But I am picking up a Smith 442-2 tomorrow as an upgrade to the Taurus(love hammerless, but it will probably make a trip to Grant Cunningham for some trigger work).

I do agree with the other posts I have read, get good LEATHER(love my Ted Blocker holster), get a GOOD belt made by a gun leather maker. they are worth their weight in gold to me.

I will also throw a vote in for the the Smart Carry holster, I carry both my M&P and my revolvers in them.

Last plug, if you are going to carry a revolver, I love the Bianchi Stripper Clips.

[Defensory]

Endorsements of the published report "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight"; by W. French Anderson:

"The report will serve as a model for all of law enforcement in the area of crime scene reconstruction and will finally set the record straight on one of the most significant and tragic events in FBI history."

FBI Special Agent Gordon McNeill
Participant in the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout

"I would like the reader to know that to the extent that was humanly possible, Dr. W. French Anderson’s research and conclusions are correct. There might be some slight variation in the sequence of some of the events as we know them, but to the extent possible, the events documented are, to my knowledge, correct. The reader needs to bear in mind that this event was reconstructed by Dr. Anderson ten years after the fact. Four out of the ten participants are dead. We will probably never really know exactly what all their actions were, but I agree with Dr. Anderson’s forensic analysis."

FBI Special Agent Edmundo Mireles
Participant in the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm


Game, set, match to Defensory! :p :evil:

[DougDubya]

You still are comparing apples (stopping power) to avacado-colored decorative lamps (the better shooting and reloading properties of autos over revolvers).

I call foot fault. Kindly put the goal posts BACK where you found them.

Oh... and note - lots of people take MONEY for those kinds of book blurbs.

Cash in pocket helps sell your credibility.

[machinisttx]

I love when people want to argue auto over revolver when the example they use is actually a question of rifle versus handgun. The wrong conclusions have been drawn from any number of real life incidents.


If the miami shootout is the one I'm thinking of, both of the bad guys had long guns--one of them a mini 14 with plenty of spare magazines. Both were known to practice regularly(how many of the cops involved did?). The problem there was cops brought handguns to a rifle fight--it was not a problem of
capacity--and it could have also been an issue of marksmanship on the part of the officers involved.

Autoloaders didn't do the cops one damn bit of good at the bank heist in LA, but it did allow them to miss a lot. They did make a few hits, so maybe quantity made up for quality(?)...even though the shots were wasted, only hitting body armor. The perps got dropped quick once rifles came into play on the officer's side.

Basic fact is that if you can't hit, it won't matter how many rounds you fire or what caliber they are--at least until the lawyers get involved. 15 fast misses and a hit on #16 can still get you killed. The only thing you've accomplished is increasing the odds of hitting a bystander..

carry what you shoot(regularly)
Shoot what you carry(regularly)
Do it until you don't have to think about it to get the job done.

YMMV

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
Oh... and note - lots of people take MONEY for those kinds of book blurbs. Cash in pocket helps sell your credibility.

So you're accusing FBI Special Agents Mireles and McNeil---who both were awarded the FBI Medal of Valor for their actions during the FBI Miami shootout, and were both seriously injured in the process, two men who Massad Ayoob has declared to be "heroes"---of taking money under the table to endorse Dr. Anderson's study?!

You are definitely on the lowest road possible when you attack two genuine American heroes, Doug. :barf:

[Defensory]

THE FBI'S 10MM PISTOL

By Special Agent John C. Hall

Unit Chief, Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy; Quantico, Virginia

"For several decades, FBI Agents carried the .38 caliber revolver as a standard firearm. Now, after extensive testing and evaluation, the FBI is converting to a new semiautomatic pistol. The new pistol, built to FBI specifications and chambered for a new cartridge - the 10mm, will be issued to all FBI Agents to replace existing revolvers. This article describes the process that led to this decision.

BACKGROUND

The authority for FBI Agents to carry firearms was first granted in 1934. Although pistols were sometimes issued or permitted on a limited basis, the revolver predominated as the FBI sidearm. The first significant shift occurred in 1981, when Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams were equipped with large capacity 9mm pistols. Since then, 9mm pistols have also become the issue weapons for the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) and special surveillance teams.

For the general Agent population, however, revolvers remained the issue weapon, though the increasing use of pistols reflected a growing recognition that the modern pistol provides certain advantages over the revolver. Primarily, pistols are generally more compact and portable and provide a larger ammunition capacity. They are also quicker and easier to reload. Moreover, experience has shown that pistols are generally easier to shoot quickly and accurately due to the self cocking operation of the slide following each shot and the more efficient transmission of recoil. What is most important, however, is that pistols have proven to be durable and reliable.

Undoubtedly, interest in pistols intensified when innovative designs of the weapon began to appear on the market during the early 1980s. Whereas the basic revolver design remains much as it was at the turn of the century, the pistol has been virtually refashioned in recent years, providing a wide range of such innovative features as double stacked large capacity magazines, double action triggers, ambidextrous controls, multiple safety devices, and endless varieties of shapes and sizes.

Meanwhile, other events entered into the picture. Instances where law enforcement officers were confronting more violent, heavily armed subjects appeared to be on the rise. The increasing use of semiautomatic and even fully automatic weapons by certain segments of the criminal element began to raise concerns about the adequacy of law enforcement armament.

SELECTION OF A NEW HANDGUN

In 1987, new impetus was given to the FBI's ongoing evaluation of firearms and ammunition. The Firearms Training Unit, located at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, set out to identify the best possible handgun for FBI Agents. Firearms training experts undertook a major testing project to evaluate a variety of 9mm and .45 caliber pistols then on the market. While several of the pistols tested were effective, none possessed all of the features desired in a general issue FBI weapon. The challenge was to develop a pistol that met the needs of the FBI.

In the meantime, as a response to a growing perception within Agent ranks that a pistol was preferable to the revolver, the Director of the FBI authorized Agents to use personally owned pistols, either 9mm or .45 caliber, as long as the weapons were of approved manufacture and design and the training and qualification standards were met."

http://www.pointshooting.com/fbi10mm.htm

[DougDubya]

Actually, I'm attacking your variance of every other account aside from some pediatrician/geneticist's self-serving, non-peer reviewed fictionalized account.

You now suddenly speak up for Ayoob, when you call his version "a fairy tale?"

Get your stuff straight.

[Ltlabner]

We get it you two. You dissagree over the lessons to be drawn from the FBI Miami shoot out.

It's beyond boring now.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

Thank you, LtLabner:)

[DougDubya]

Okeydoke, Lilabner.

I at least know how to keep my story straight.