What will a 40 do better than a .45?


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Tom Fury
June 5, 2008, 03:48 AM
I have made the statement that I haven't found anything a ,40 will do better than a .45.

Stopping power; I don't think theres' any appreciable or quantifiable difference. .45 has made its' bones.

Round count: I have big hands; fat boys don't scare me; if it turns into that kind of fight, I want an AK anyway.

Recoil/handling: my muscular buttocks: I find the muzzle flip that I experienced with every .40 I've shot (Kahr, Glock, S&W) to be detrimental and on the verge of uncontrollable, even with my hands. I don't like it at all. Why put myself thru it?

Particular platforms that make it uniquely attractive: Uhhh...no...in fact, my favorite platforms run better in .45, so...

I intend to misbehave; if this seems a provocative stance, you're right; fire away...

Cheers, TF

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Kitchen_Duty
June 5, 2008, 03:56 AM
9mm vs 40 vs 45 vs 10mm vs 41 mag vs 357 vs 22LR. I think it matters mostly to the person shooting. The calibers don't care. Pick one, buy it, shoot it, then give me the brass!

azhunter12
June 5, 2008, 04:08 AM
Thanks for sharing

McCall911
June 5, 2008, 04:24 AM
Tom Fury, I must say we don't get many from the UK inquiring about handgun rounds. (I wish we did.)

:)

It appears that .40's might have a slight edge in penetration over the .45 ACP, but I'm sure this varies a lot with bullet construction, etc. The .45 ACP has certainly proven itself over a longer period historically, while the .40 S&W has likewise proven itself over a much shorter period of time, but under different circumstances.
Other than these nit-picking bits of trivia, I would agree with you.

jlh26oo
June 5, 2008, 04:31 AM
Because I prefer .45acp too!

But I guess one advantage of .40sw is similar performance to .45acp, but in smaller and lighter packages (given the same platform). In most makes it's about the same width as the 9mm version (most H.K., GLOCK, and Walther for example identical widths). Also, capacity as the O.P. noted, and maybe price.

I think on paper it's the perfect compromise C.C.W. caliber, maximizing the intersection of capacity, size, weight, performance etc. But I'm with you, +/- a couple rounds doesn't bump my preference for the slightly higher performance at much lower pressures, and I just like shooting .45acp. Meanwhile others prefer exactly the opposite.

So what will a 40 do better than a .45 and 9mm? Gives shooters one more option from which to choose!

Curiousity
June 5, 2008, 04:35 AM
What can it do better? Everything...

distra
June 5, 2008, 06:37 AM
Nothing...:cool:

Disaster
June 5, 2008, 07:25 AM
penetrate.

Smaller caliber, higher velocity rounds have better penetration. Larger caliber, slower velocity loads require less expansion to be effective. Also, capacity is going to be better in a smaller diameter round.

Ltlabner
June 5, 2008, 08:52 AM
One nice thing about the .40S&W is that for those of us cursed with small hands, it works in a 9mm framed weapon. I've yet to find a weapon chambered in .45ACP where my tiny little midget clown hands are big enough to properlly grip the gun.

Thus, I get a little bigger round but in a weapon package that fits my hand. While the mag can't pack as many as a 9mm, you still can carry a decent load of .40.

As far as "stopping power", I could care less (within reason). Carry what you can shoot the most accuratly and quickly and leave the arguments to others.

Ske1etor
June 5, 2008, 09:18 AM
It'll go through a car door much more handily!

Hawk
June 5, 2008, 09:22 AM
I was avoiding .40S&W until a firearm I wanted was discontinued and the only one I could find happened to be chambered in .40.

Since then I found something it can do that .45ACP has trouble doing: selling premium rounds for 349.00 per thousand, even at today's awful pricing.

That means I get to practice with my carry rounds - Federal HSTs. Couldn't do that with .45. I'd practice with Federal Red Box then load up with Cor-bon.

It gives one a warm fuzzy to know the stuff you carry will run a case without problems and not have to break the bank to find out.

Despite having sworn I'd never own a .40 it's what I shoot the most of now - never say "never", I guess. I realize "cost" is a factor seldom found in caliber wars but what the hey.

DWARREN123
June 5, 2008, 10:28 AM
Probably nothing but I like the 40 S&W round best for SD/HD.

sqlbullet
June 5, 2008, 10:44 AM
Ultimately, it is the preference and desired application/performance of the shooter that make one preferable to another. You have justified your use of a 45 ACP over a 40S&W based on your preferences.

I guess what I am saying is your title should have been "What will a 40 do better than a .45 in Tom Fury - reality?". In your reality, nothing. If another persons reality is small hands with forearm muscles carved from titanium who wants a pocket gun with 9+1 capacity in a caliber larger than 9mm, clearly the Glock 27 fits.

In my reality, a 15+1 10mm is ideal. And no one can argue with that cause it is MY reality.

FEG
June 5, 2008, 10:53 AM
What will a 40 do better than a .45?

Fit in my S&W Model 610. I have to use the S&W Model 625 for the .45 ACP. ;)

Bobo
June 5, 2008, 11:02 AM
For LEO use the .40 might have an edge…
Slightly better penetration through auto glass and doors, and a few more rounds in the mag.

For civilian use (seldom have to penetrate glass and doors) it’s pretty much a toss up…
.40 gives a few more rounds, but is a bit snappy,
.45 has a bit more size and weight, and is slightly softer shooting.

.40 is generally less expensive. So if you plan on shooting alot it may be a consideration. If you carry alot and only shoot a little or if you reload the difference in price may not matter too much.

hill billy
June 5, 2008, 11:04 AM
A .40 will absolutely, in every case, under every scientific stratagem,do this better than any .45 on the planet














































carry more rounds in the same size frame. I love my .45's :neener:

Majic
June 5, 2008, 11:05 AM
What will a 40 do better than a .45?
Fit in a smaller platform.

Bullet Bob
June 5, 2008, 11:08 AM
Make the ammunition manufacturers wealthier.

atblis
June 5, 2008, 11:11 AM
Recoil/handling: my muscular buttocks: I find the muzzle flip that I experienced with every .40 I've shot (Kahr, Glock, S&W) to be detrimental and on the verge of uncontrollable, even with my hands. I don't like it at all. Why put myself thru it?

Ever consider the reason for this? Maybe that you're talking about smaller lighter platforms.

40 S&W isn't that bad. Work on your hand/forearm strength.

Particular platforms that make it uniquely attractive: Uhhh...no...in fact, my favorite platforms run better in .45, so...

I'll assume you mean the 1911. What makes you say the 1911 runs better in 45? I see 45 caliber 1911s choking all the time at shoots.

bakert
June 5, 2008, 11:20 AM
Blow up Glocks:eek:

proud2deviate
June 5, 2008, 12:39 PM
Less recoil, higher capacity/smaller guns possible. Cheaper than .45 ACP. Born from 10mm, so it can't be all bad.

That said, I much prefer .45

makarovnik
June 5, 2008, 02:57 PM
Better penetration and flatter trajectory.

Spenser
June 5, 2008, 03:10 PM
It generates incessant internet debate. ;)

legion3
June 5, 2008, 03:37 PM
Go faster :cool:

jdevince
June 5, 2008, 03:42 PM
Get Smiths name on another cartridge to help out their marketing folks:)

MarcusWendt
June 5, 2008, 04:22 PM
A Glock vs M&P, XD thread and now a .45 vs 9mm thread.

Is it a full moon?

BlindJustice
June 5, 2008, 07:34 PM
Dunnoh, have yet to shoot a .40 S&W but looking at the ballistics
it would have a flatter trajectory, probably a higher capacity in some
platforms I prefer the 1911 full size in .45 ACP as I also shoot a 625
5" Bbl. .45 ACP w/full moon clips or .45 AUto Rim. The other option with
the 1911 will be, after the gun smith installs the correct length link is
.400 CorBon which is the necked to .40 .45 ACP case but with the small
pistol primer. Should be fun,.40 155 gr. @ 1350-1400fps

Can't recoil any more than the .45ACP +P
Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHPs @ 1,085 FPS right?

Shoot whatever clenches your muscular buttocks....

hah!

Youngster
June 5, 2008, 07:37 PM
The .40 probably has the deepest selection of really good defensive ammo of all the duty caliber pistol rounds.

Supertac45
June 5, 2008, 07:38 PM
It's not all that different, just a different number.

Scratchshooter40
June 6, 2008, 08:57 PM
Generally, shoot what you shoot well. I don't see the "snappiness or muzzle flip" that seems to be a common complaint with the .40 S&W. :confused: I have been instructing ladies for several years and none of them complain about it either. Shoot from a modified Weaver stance and work on stance, flexability and stay on top of recoil. As an investigator I have carried 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I have shot possible with all three as well. As to stopping power, the only live .40 experience was with a jacked up pitt bull. 1 shot and it was over, unfortunately. Owner should have been the target, he was the cause. Round was a 155 gr. Federal Hydrashock from a Beretta 96. Have a safe weekend.

socaldan
June 6, 2008, 11:47 PM
I have both, I shoot both, I like both.
I guess i'm just easy to please.

Which one's better???
I don't know!

Dan

rcellis
June 7, 2008, 12:24 AM
I'm with socaldan - I shoot .45, .40 and 9mm, as well as a little .380 and .32 (and .22lr for that matter) - depending on my carry situation I pick the gun the suits and recognize that different calibers have different strengths and weaknesses.. it *does* happen that the two guns I prefer to carry (and with which I am the most practiced/accurate) are .40SWs - an HK2000sk and a SIG 239. Close seconds are my Colt Commander .45 and my S&W M&Pc in 9mm.

High quality ammo, whatever the caliber is key as well.

ARTiger
June 7, 2008, 12:40 AM
Umm, what a .40 can do is give more capacity in the same sized gun or equal capacity in a smaller gun with roughly the same effectiveness as .45 ACP. That said, I don't own a .40 calibered gun any more, but have 4 in .45

Kilted Cossack
June 7, 2008, 12:49 AM
"Fit into a 9mm platform." Other than that I honestly think it's angels on the head of pins type distinctions.

EHL
June 7, 2008, 03:06 AM
Carry more rounds, and that's pretty much it. I'd take a .40 over a 9mm though. I don't think I'd ever take anything other than a 45 as my first choice though. Time proven caliber, it's the standard by which other man stopping calibers are judged by.

Moonclip
June 7, 2008, 06:25 AM
Ammo costs less generally.

marineman
June 7, 2008, 08:55 AM
Slightly more ammo per magazine. The ammo is slightly less expensive. However, the power of the .45 greatly outweighs anything the .40 can offer.

Deanimator
June 7, 2008, 01:56 PM
Fit in my hand in a pistol with a double column magazine.

No .45 does that, with the possible exception of the Glock 21SF, which I haven't held, much less shot.

Walkalong
June 7, 2008, 01:59 PM
No it won't. If you want more rounds, more higher cap .40's are available than .45's, but they are out there too, so, again, no.

ZombiesAhead
June 7, 2008, 03:06 PM
.40 is faster, smaller (can fit more rounds in the same size frame), has better penetration, it's lighter (carry more ammunition with you and pay less in materials), etc...

.45 might have more "stopping power" but I doubt it makes any difference. Also, with slower speeds maybe .45 suppresses better?

I'd rather have a .40 (shot both though I don't own either). It seems like the old, cranky guys who hang out in gun stores are partial to the .45. I imagine that generation will die out eventually and we can all move on to more modern rounds.

I carry 9mm, personally.

theotherwaldo
June 7, 2008, 04:58 PM
Fit in my pocket. I have a .45 that's smaller than my Glock 27, problem is that it's by AMT.

Ouch!

Big Boomer
June 8, 2008, 12:28 AM
penetrate.

Smaller caliber, higher velocity rounds have better penetration. Larger caliber, slower velocity loads require less expansion to be effective. Also, capacity is going to be better in a smaller diameter round.

So this must be why they use mega big bores going slow for Safaris?

Take say a 30-378 traveling at oh I dunno close to 3500fps with a 30 caliber bullet at 150 grain traveling at 3900fps gets better penetration than say a 460 mag with a 600 grain pill going 2400 fps?

The 600 grainer should transverse a cape buffalo from end to end going through any bone and keep on going.

When talking about flesh and bone, its about mass, sectional density, and metplat.

For hard objects like steel this is a different story. Steel cored ammo that sheds the outer layer punching through a pin hole will penetrate deeper here.

Although the 40 is a smaller diameter it also has less capable mass. If you notice you can get the bullet weights about the same speed is about the same as well. The 5 thousands of an inch difference is of no consequence in a non expanded bullet. While bullet design will dictate expansion and therefore ballistic co efficiency in an expanding bullet.

Non solid bullets with jacketed cores going extremely fast will usually fail. This means they effectively detonate, or fragment, losing their combined mass for less penetration. (think of a frangible bullet)

Most bullet designs are designed to only work within a few hundred feet per second for optimal performance, too slow they fill fail to expand, too fast and they fragment.

This is why say in my 460 Rowland if I use the same bullets designed to fire in my 45ACP say at 185 grain going at 1100fps and now push them to 1500fps I will actually get less penetration. I might get a bigger wound channel though.

If you maintain bullet mass, with high sectional density (non expansion) with speed you get the most penetration. This is true for all bullets.

Treo
June 8, 2008, 12:49 AM
Fit my CZ75B .40 S&W.
That said I don't particularly favor the .40 over the .45 , but I do tend to favor the CZ over my 1911, although I DO want a CZ97B. (.45 ACP) . Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?

With me it's more a platform issue than a caliber issue.

Varmonter
June 8, 2008, 12:53 AM
use less powder doing it. (I reload) I have a neat pic i will have to post.
of a 9mm case nested inside a 40 nested inside a 45. gives a good
indication of cartridge size comparison.

saturno_v
June 8, 2008, 01:59 AM
Big Boomer

The .40 has a better sectional density compared to the .45 and it will results in better penetration..has been proved over and over...the .40 is a better stopper than a 45 ACP accordingly with several statistics.

Sectional density (and energy of course) trumps mass when it comes to penetration..doesn't matter the grainage of the bullets.

A 30-378 at 3900 fps will indeed penetrate better (assuming a solidly built bullet) than a 460 but when hunting big animals you want wound channel diameter too (and high Taylor KO factor) and the .30 caliber bullets are at disadvantage compared to a .460....however thousands of elephant has been killed with the "puny" 7 X 57 Mauser...

Furthermore, comparing a 150 grain bullet with a 600 grain bullet is not like comparing a 180 grainer with a 230 grainer..the .40 has sufficiently higher energy compared to a .45 to overcome the 50 grains difference in "knockdown" power.

Lions (thin skinned animals) has been taken comfortably for decades with the 270 Winchester (not to mention the more anemic 303 British).... More than one experienced safari hunters told me that the minimum requirements for a .375 in many African countries to hunt lions is ridiculous...

Non solid bullets with jacketed cores going extremely fast will usually fail. This means they effectively detonate, or fragment, losing their combined mass for less penetration. (think of a frangible bullet)

This is no longer true with modern bullet construction for premium products.

In the very early 20 century an English hunter named George Gray was killed by a lion charge when his two shots out of a 280 Ross rifle with 140 gr bullets failed to penetrate the vitals...the 280 Ross was an ultra fast round at that time (over 3000 fps) but bullet technology was still in its infancy...the .280 Ross fast soft point bullets often fragmented when encountered stiff resistance...from that point in time the belief (and somewhat school of thought) about the need of a large caliber to kill Lions was born

Couple of decades later, and with bullet construction reaching maturity, the fantastic 270 Winchester demonstrated that could go through Simba from stern to butt handily....

Try to shoot a Lion with a 270 Winchester loaded with Supreme Elite XP3 bullets and see what happen....

Big Boomer
June 8, 2008, 02:37 AM
I'm not saying that the lighter weight bullets won't kill anything. Hell a 22lr has just about taken everything on the face of the planet. You just have to poke the hole in the right place.

The 40 is a higher energy round (in pressure that is) and is so close to the 45 for ballistics purposes I think one should worry more about the bullet design rather than caliber between these two for better performance.

That being said, I find the recoil of the 40 to be sharper and more violent than the lower pressure 45. I can honestly shoot my 45 much better.

Now when I pull out my 45 Super thats a different story, they feel close to the same but that's a whole nuther ball park there!

I don't see anything that the 40 (for practical purposes) does better than the 45. It's not a bad round for a manstopper. I see no reason (besides ammo cost) to have it over the 45.

My neighbor bought a 40 after not liking the recoil of my 45's but unfortunately didn't take my advice and shoot it first. He was very unhappy with his purchase. Kinda sad, it was his first gun. I turned him on to shooting. He flinches like crazy with the 40 and hits dirt at 7 yards. He shoots my 45's just fine. He actually shoots my 1911's the best. He didn't originally like my XD but then after comparing to his, he thought it was a dream.

Not that I am a hater of the 40, it just has no use for me. It's already hot for a small case, higher pressure so it hard to "ramp it up" for more performance. The brass just can't take it. Wears quicker and thus is more likely to fail causing possible damage. (talking reloading and target shooting)

Oh, and regarding the previous post about the 30 cal vs say a 460 if we are talking solids and such both would punch pretty good at their given velocities and penetrate deeply, but when talking about bone, traveling in a straight path, mass wins to stay the course.

In the 40 vs 45 thing here lets look at what we really are going to be carrying? Is this for personal defense? Or plinkin? I doubt that any of us would be carrying fmj (or few at least) so that leaves hollow point bullet designs for the rest of us. What are the common bullet makers? Hornady XTP, Barnes X, Sierra, Speer gold dot? If we are discussing just penetration in a medium I would find it interesting if there was a significant measurable amount of difference between the two using the same bullet design with the same weights.

And, if we are really talking about what the 40 and 45 are primarily used for (human targets) once again its negligible. Carry what you can shoot the best.

If you can put either in the goody box it ain't gonna make a rat's hair difference what caliber you shoot. We ain't taking either of these huntin cape buffalo anytime soon;)

saturno_v
June 8, 2008, 02:50 AM
Big Boomer

I totally agree...both the .40 and .45 are effective manstoppers and the differences are negligible..I carry myself a .40 ..I like it because of the higher ammo capacity.

I still plan to buy a .45 in the future because I like shooting it and I want to have an other handgun in this caliber (if anything else, for "historical" reasons)...there is always an excuse to buy an other gun :D....recoil with both is not an issue for me (I shoot my 44 Mag revolver with one hand....:D:D)

If someone flinch with the recoil of a .40 or a .45 it has no business in carrying a handgun :neener::neener:

Still some old school .45 fans keep calling the .40 "Short & Weak"...it is simply ridiculous....

EHL
June 8, 2008, 04:23 AM
Did anybody ever see the video of the bad guy shot by cops two or three times in the chest with their .40's and the dude was still up and running and fighting them? In fact, one of the bullets hit the guy in the teeth and simply broke his tooth without exiting the back of his head!:what: I'd still much rather hit him with a larger hunk of lead.

saturno_v
June 8, 2008, 04:31 AM
A guy hit in the mouth by a .40 slug without being killed istantly or breaking only his tooth is simply not credible.....pure BS

If "this guy" doesn't get killed with a .40, rest assured he would not get killed with a .45 either...

EHL
June 8, 2008, 05:07 AM
Uh, how is that BS????? It's freaky, but stuff like that happens. Heard about the lady just a few weeks ago shot with with .44 magnum in the face and the bullet shattered? Heres the link.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23914454/
Crazy stuff like this happens all the time. Don't go off calling people liars just cuz you disagree with them. I can't find the link for the video recording of the perp shot by police two or three times with their .40's and the guy kept coming at them. That's why I was asking if anybody else had seen it. Don't like getting called a liar though.:fire:

chieftain
June 8, 2008, 05:53 AM
The ole’ Mine’s bigger than yours, debate. Never had one of those here before.


The .40 has a better sectional density compared to the .45 and it will results in better penetration..has been proved over and over...the .40 is a better stopper than a 45 ACP accordingly with several statistics.

Sectional density (and energy of course) trumps mass when it comes to penetration..doesn't matter the grainage of the bullets.

Furthermore, comparing a 150 grain bullet with a 600 grain bullet is not like comparing a 180 grainer with a 230 grainer..the .40 has sufficiently higher energy compared to a .45 to overcome the 50 grains difference in "knockdown" power.

Best argument yet for the proper 9mm load. As originally designed, and in service before the 45acp, 9mm-124gr @ 1250 vs. 45acp-230gr @ 850, 40S&W-180gr @ 950. The 9 has superior energy figures too.

Never saw any reason for a 40. Either 45 or 9 in my book. And the World’s military too.


I don't see anything that the 40 (for practical purposes) does better than the 45. It's not a bad round for a manstopper. I see no reason (besides ammo cost) to have it over the 45.

My exact feeling about the 9mm vs. 45 and 40 too. Note: as I sit here writing this I have a Colt Gunsite Pistol, government model in 45acp in my Milt Sparks. That is what rides in my holster more often than one of my Highpowers when I feel like a 9mm. I am more interested in the platform than the caliber. In any of the ‘fighting’ calibers, if I do my job they, the caliber I have with me, will work or not work to equal probability, regardless of caliber.


Not that I am a hater of the 40, it just has no use for me. It's already hot for a small case, higher pressure so it hard to "ramp it up" for more performance. The brass just can't take it. Wears quicker and thus is more likely to fail causing possible damage. (talking reloading and target shooting)

I am not a ‘hater of the 40’ either. Just don’t see much use for it. Have no problem with folks that like it. It’s just a ‘tweener’ to me. Neither fish nor foul. It’s higher pressure with out the appropriate space for powder is, IMNSHO the reason Glock had so many problems with Kb’s in their 40’s. And for hand loaders who are NOT loading weak cheese ammo, have some serious risks. Both due to a very small margin of error with powder, and much more critical in the 40 than any of the other fighting calibers, bullet set back.


Still some old school .45 fans keep calling the .40 "Short & Weak"...it is simply ridiculous....

Yup. Except when you compare it to it’s Daddy, the 10mm. But I understand your pain.


Did anybody ever see the video of the bad guy shot by cops two or three times in the chest with their .40's and the dude was still up and running and fighting them? In fact, one of the bullets hit the guy in the teeth and simply broke his tooth without exiting the back of his head! I'd still much rather hit him with a larger hunk of lead.

I can show you, or tell you stories like that for every caliber. Remember the guys in Idaho HIT by 30 + 45acp rounds and never stopped?


If "this guy" doesn't get killed with a .40, rest assured he would not get killed with a .45 either...

BINGO!!!!

Add “or a 9mm” and it becomes:

Double BINGO! BINGO!

It ain’t about caliber. It is about reliable platforms, and shooter performance with said platforms. To paraphrase America’s first fighter Ace Eddy Rickenbacher, “Everything else is rubbish”.

If a certain caliber is your answer, You really don’t understand the Question.

Go figure.

Fred

Seven For Sure
June 8, 2008, 12:28 PM
It will hold more rds. in a smaller gun or more rds. in the same size gun. It will penetrate more. It will cost less to shoot whether you reload or not.

They both have their merits and either one is better than 9mm. I have a Glock 17, PM9, P9 and KT sub 2k though. The Glock and the sub 2k are for my friends who don't have guns of their own and want the most bang for their buck when we go shooting. The other two just happen to be 9mm's that make sense to me and round out my guns nicely. The difference between six or seven rds. in a tiny gun could be substantial. The same could be said for 105 and 106 rds. too though I realize.

saturno_v
June 8, 2008, 01:51 PM
EHL

Sorry, I apologize... I didn't mean to offend you, I didn't say you were the liar...often even the press releases articles with a lot of "sensationalism" but factually incorrect or grossy exaggerated..

Maybe you can have an EXCEPTIONAL event when a defective bullet explode on impact or a one in a milion shooting angle that doesn't damage vital organs or where the bullet shatters because impact a bone at a very wrong angle....a guy loaded so much on weird drugs that you need a chainsaw to physically cut him in pieces...but again,...these are very very exceptional events, call it statistical freaks and it can happen with a .40, a .45, a .44 Mag or a .50 BMG for that matter...they are not a proof that a .45 is more effective than a .40....

Chieftain..

I agree with you the 9 does the job too but energy levels are significantly higher in a .40

However i have both 9 mm, .40 and I'm going to buy a .45 soon so i'm covered :neener::neener::D:D

EHL
June 8, 2008, 03:14 PM
No problem Saturno.:) I too agree with Cheiftan about these exceptional events of any caliber not stopping perps. I did post that I would take a .40 over a 9mm any day, it's just that I prefer it's big brother the old war horse .45 acp. Sorry I came accross confrontational too. I definetly agree with at least 99.9999% of what both you and Chieftan said about the calibers and the exceptional circumstances.:D

chieftain
June 9, 2008, 05:23 AM
I agree with you the 9 does the job too but energy levels are significantly higher in a .40


Nope.

Not according to physics. Unless some law of physics has been reformed or withdrawn.

The "standard" loads

45 acp 230gr FMJ @ 850fps = 369 ftlbs or 502 j
40 S&W 180gr FMJ @ 950fps = 361 ftlbs or 491 j
9 mm 124gr Fmj @ 1250fps = 430 ftlbs or 585 j

The formula is: fps x fps x bullet weight in grains / 450400 (constant for conversion) = ftlbs of energy.

If you don’t like this or disagree, blame Einstein, not me.

The 9mm and 45acp are NATO specs. The 40 are the original manufacturers specs. May help some folks understand why most of the world ain't had many problems with the 9mm either.

Do the math on your whizzbang bullet.

Are there other rounds, and loadings of course. But for talking about oranges to oranges one must use the standards. Many folks forget that the Americans have been down loading the 9mm for near on 100 years. It is one reason why many Luger’s brought home after the ‘wars’ were not to reliable.

Weak cheese American 9mm ammo. And for 80 of those years the knock was that it over penetrated. Never had that problem with the 45acp, no less 45acp luminaries than Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor admit the 45 can be very poor in the penetration dept.

So folks don’t go throwing phony energy numbers around. Stick to the facts. They may screw up your justification but the facts are the facts.

Like I said above, if you are still arguing about caliber, you really don’t understand the question. Isn't because mine is better than yours, it just isn't really a relevant argument about either.

#1 Reliability, Reliability, Reliability

#2 Shootability/fit for YOU (if you have only shot a few guns, you really don't know or understand whats out there) to do this right, ain't a cheap trip.

#3 Maintainability Cleaning each and every time you use your weapon and your ability to TOTALLY maintain your fighting weapons. Replacing parts and springs per manufacturers recommendations and when needed by your close inspection of even the smallest parts and replacing them as needed or recommended.

#4 Training, Training, Training (not cheap weak cheese, good stuff)

#5 Learn tactics and how to fight your weapon. Your weapons and calibers strengths and weakness's, they all have both.

#6 Quality practice. Not dinging at the local range. Real practice, including genuine dry firing, not sitting in front of your TV snapping the trigger, presentations from cover and your carry holster, not our competition holster, practice reloading so you can do it in the dark, literally.

#7 Proper support equipment, a second gun exactly like or close similarity to your primary (if it breaks, or you need to send it in for parts or repair? The ole' Swede always said shoot one carry one), Quality holster that fits you and your life style, quality belt, Quality ammo carriers etc. And the extra and different ones you may need for different seasons, clothes, or social/business/work situations. This is about commitment to a life style. Take your time and learn.

#9 Quality Ammunition, regardless of caliber, lot of good choices in the last few years.

#10 If you still feel a need to argue caliber, go ahead. You are finally in a place where at least you should be aware of the real reasons you want or need what ever it is you think you want or need. Remember there is no right or wrong. Just do it from knowledge, not from rumor, myth, or INTERNET guru's like me.

You can't do this on the cheap. If all you can afford is one gun right now, go get a Glock 19 or a 17, and learn. A good Revolver will work well too. Any of them are Reliable enough until you learn what is best for you. Who knows, it might even be the Glock 19. It is my recommendation for most folks. I own one, but will not carry it. If I carried a Glock it would probably be the 34. Not that difficult, as I carry usually a Full size Colt Gunsite Pistol, government 1911 and when I am in the 9mm mood a Browning Highpower and my BUG is either a S&W 642 or my Colt Pony Featherweight.

Some folks are just unprejudiced by fact.

Go figure.

Fred

Seven For Sure
June 9, 2008, 01:52 PM
Nice biased data you posted up there. What a joke. Let's take Speer gold dot's for example.

9mm 124 +P http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23617

9mm 124 http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23618

40 180 http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23962

45 230

Seven For Sure
June 9, 2008, 02:02 PM
Screwed that one up but anyway... you picked a 9mm load that no factory +P I have been able to find can duplicate. Then you took the heaviest loads (which have the lowest energy levels) in 40 and 45, watered them down and used them for examples.

Want to try a 135 40 or a 165 45 when comparing energy levels? Try it. Find any factory ammo and compare the lightest bullets that each caliber is offered in. Why compare 9mm +P+ to regular old 45ACP? Try 200 gr. +P 45ACP and compare it or a nice 155 40. Both are middleweights like your 9mm +P+ example. Who loads that anyway?

Both calibers not only spank 9mm in energy, they are larger and heavier. Just use 155 instead of 135 for 40 so there is no confusion about weight.

chieftain
June 9, 2008, 04:09 PM
Screwed that one up but anyway... you picked a 9mm load that no factory +P I have been able to find can duplicate. Then you took the heaviest loads (which have the lowest energy levels) in 40 and 45, watered them down and used them for examples.

Nope.

What 'standard' do you use? In fact the 9mm NATO load has been the ‘Standard’ load for the 9mm all over the world for over 100 years! Just not here in the states.

NATO isn't a bias, it's in fact a standard. Ask any manufacturer of 9mm handguns if their weapon will handle NATO ammunition. I already know the answer to that. Apparently you don't.

As I clearly stated in my statement, there are always other loads. Some “better” and some not so “better” loads.

I will lean on my 52 years of shooting, started competing in the late 50's, and still compete in IDPA and USPSA Steel Challenge, Pin shoots etc..., 10 years in the Corps, two years of military combat and 7 years with law enforcement as to what is and isn't effective. I don't doubt your experience and knowledge base would dwarf mine.

If just higher energy numbers are the goal, I could have used some of the 115 or 90gr +P+ 9mm specialty loads, I didn’t. I am comparing a standard to a standard.

If energy levels is what floats your boat, I would strongly suggest you move to, in pistols, 357 SIG or better yet 10 MM. After all 10mm is the daddy of the 40S&W. They developed the 40S&W so the average female and weak male FBI agents could handle it.

This ain't personal, it is fact based. If you have a need to make another point, be my guest. This ain’t CBS, I have only one agenda. That is, that it really doesn’t matter which caliber you use. I just recommend you choose and use it based on facts, not myths. The middle of a firefight is not the place to find out what you THOUGHT would happen with your wonder load, doesn’t.

Go figure.

Fred

TestPilot
June 9, 2008, 05:39 PM
1. Being heavier and bigger than a 9mm, AND without lossing speed. No more split between "heavy and slow" and "light and fast."

2. Fitting more number inside a same size magazine compared to a 45ACP.

Loyalist Dave
June 9, 2008, 05:53 PM
For LEO use the .40 might have an edge…
Slightly better penetration through auto glass and doors, and a few more rounds in the mag.

NOPE, tried it through the side glass of Toyota pickup truck at point blank range..., blew the window, went through the perp's arm between the bones, and bounced off his chest!.

Since I couldn't compare it to my Para in .45 acp (I can't duplicate the conditions), I can't tell for certain what would've happened, but I am confident that since my Glock 22 shooting Federal Hydroshock 180 grain projectiles failed, I would prefer to use 230 grain .45 ACP hollow point or ball. My Para also has the same amount of ammo as the Glock, so I disagree with the above.

LD

easyg
June 10, 2008, 10:59 AM
What will a 40 do better than a .45?

I have made the statement that I haven't found anything a ,40 will do better than a .45.

Stopping power; I don't think theres' any appreciable or quantifiable difference. .45 has made its' bones.
Right, the .45ACP is no more effective than the .40S&W....so why limit your magazine capacity for no appreciable advantage?

Round count: I have big hands; fat boys don't scare me; if it turns into that kind of fight, I want an AK anyway.
But there are other things to consider....
Yeah, you might have big hands so fat grips don't scare you....but the fatter the grip the harder it is to conceal.
And if you're carrying the same number of extra magazines and rounds in .45 vs .40, then you're also carrying more weight on your belt.

As for the AK....who carries an AK everywhere they go in the USA?
And you never know when any confrontation is going to turn in to "that kind of fight".

Recoil/handling: my muscular buttocks: I find the muzzle flip that I experienced with every .40 I've shot (Kahr, Glock, S&W) to be detrimental and on the verge of uncontrollable, even with my hands. I don't like it at all. Why put myself thru it?
If you truely find the recoil/handling of the typical .40 pistol to be "on the verge of uncontrollable" then I don't think I can help you.
But it's definitely you and not the caliber.
It's a fact that thousands of law enforcement officers qualify with the .40 every year....even small asian cops and small hispanic cops, and small female cops as well.
I'm just an average sized guy and I have no problem with the .40's recoil.
In fact, I can't tell a dime's difference between th recoil of the .40 and the .45ACP (in similar pistols).
It's just no big deal.

Particular platforms that make it uniquely attractive: Uhhh...no...in fact, my favorite platforms run better in .45, so...
To each his own.

BlindJustice
June 10, 2008, 12:39 PM
Where were we?

Ah! Medium bullet/load in 9x19, .40 S&W & .45 ACP

9x19 +P 124 gr. GD JHP @ 1280FSP
.40 S&W 155 gr. GD JHP @ 1240 FPS?
.45 ACP +P Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHP @ 1,055 FPS

Hit where you aim/Want to hit the target
with the above load you handle best.

I've got a 1911, as well as a 625 .45 ACP & .rt Auto Rim
CZ 75B 9x19 Looking at .40 S&W platforms, include BHP,
another CZ 75? or a Sig.

CUrrent .40 cal.? My 1911 is at the gunsmithg's getting the
Jarvis Inc. Hamilton MT Stainless Steel "Bull" varrel in
.400 CorBon fitted to go to Battery. These barrels are supplied
by Bar-Sto, after Bar-Sto stopped offering to single customers
it seems they still do runs of this cal. but do it for the barrel gunnys.

.400 CorBon
155 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP @ 1,400 FPS
155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP @ 1,350 FPS

I don't have to buy a dedicated 10MM AUto or
.40 S&W ---- yet. However, I may just go the
S&W Revolver Route, with the Model 610 4" or
for a great huntiong platform the 6 1/2" Bbl. Len.
SHoots 10MM AUto & .40 S&W with full moon clips.

oh, but one thing the .40 S&W doesn't offer vs
the .45 ACP, is readily available shot shells

Randall

saturno_v
June 10, 2008, 01:11 PM
Nope.

Not according to physics. Unless some law of physics has been reformed or withdrawn.

The "standard" loads

45 acp 230gr FMJ @ 850fps = 369 ftlbs or 502 j
40 S&W 180gr FMJ @ 950fps = 361 ftlbs or 491 j
9 mm 124gr Fmj @ 1250fps = 430 ftlbs or 585 j


Chieftain are you serious?? What data on standard loads are you referring to?? :eek::eek:

Major manufacturer standard loads for the 180 gr. .40 S&W, nothing particularly hot (I'm quite sure all of them sub-SAAMI specs)

Winchester: 408 ft/lb (velocity 1010 fps)
Federal: 400 ft/lb (velocity 1000 fps)
Remington: 412 ft/lb (velocity 1015 fps)
Magtech: 441 ft/lb (velocity 1050 fps)
Blazer: 400 ft/lb (velocity 1000 fps)

In 155 gr. the "ideal" weight for the .40 energy level exceeds 500 ft/lb

The 9 mm standard is around 350 in lighter bullet configurations and it drops to 310-320, in the best case scenario with 147 gr.

We are assuming for both a barrel lenght of 4"

You got the calculation wrong...come on...!!!:eek::eek:

Where in the world can you get a 124 gr 9 mm standard load that reaches 430 ft/lb?? I would lvoe to know for my P-11!!!!

saturno_v
June 10, 2008, 01:23 PM
Chieftain

The only official number for standard NATO load for the 9 X 19 Parabellum that I could find for the 124 gr FMJ is 1090 fps
I checked Europan ammo manufacturers (for example Fiocchi) but no trace of this fantastic super round.

I found, though, an old manual during from days in the Italian armed forces and this is what are the published ballistics of the 9 mm NATO FMJ round at that time (1988): Velocity 347 m/sec, energy 46 kg/m...you do the math

Tell me and show me where you get a 124 gr standard 9 mm load that propel a bullet to 1250 fps...

The hottest load I can find in 124 gr is the Buffalo Bore labeled +P+ (way over SAAMI standard load specs) that reaches 1300 fps and 461 ft/lb...trust me they are no standard load and not used by NATO

The same company makes a 40 S&W load capable of 582 ft/lb in 155 gr.....

By the way, Double Tap makes a 135 gr load for the 40 S&W, within SAAMI specs, that reaches 605 ft/lb...

Said that, yes the 9 mm is no sissy by any means, and those that call it "9 Europellet" don't know much about firearms...

atblis
June 10, 2008, 01:40 PM
From Army Technical Manual TM-43-0001-27

M882 Nato 9mm

Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle

I wouldn't say that's way over SAAMI specs.

Hokkmike
June 10, 2008, 01:47 PM
More energy and greater velocity with little loss of bullet weight!

saturno_v
June 10, 2008, 01:57 PM
From Army Technical Manual TM-43-0001-27

M882 Nato 9mm

Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle

I wouldn't say that's way over SAAMI specs.

Bullet weight 112 gr...

Out of what barrel lenght?? The Beretta M9 has a 5 inches barrel....standard commercial loads are tested at 4 inches.

Accordingly with the Hodgdon reload data center, I can load a 40 S&W with 135 gr. bullets within SAAMI specs (Longshot powder) at 1480 fps..which translates in 656 ft/lb...slice it as you want, the 40 S&W loaded as its limit is 50%+ more powerful than a 9 mm loaded to its limit...end of the story, it is an indisputable fact..

atblis
June 10, 2008, 02:36 PM
slice it as you want, the 40 S&W loaded as its limit is 50%+ more powerful than a 9 mm loaded to its limit...end of the story, it is an indisputable fact..
By powerful,you mean energy?
What is the limit of 9x19?
What is the limit of 40S&W?

Phil DeGraves
June 10, 2008, 02:36 PM
penetrate.

Smaller caliber, higher velocity rounds have better penetration. Larger caliber, slower velocity loads require less expansion to be effective.

Sectional density (and energy of course) trumps mass when it comes to penetration..doesn't matter the grainage of the bullets.


What contributes most to penetration is the Ballistic Coefficient which has a lot to do with bullet shape as well as sectional density. So, in FMJ bullets, this is true; better penetration. But if you are talking about SD rounds which are generally expanding bullets, then the .40, at higher velocity expands faster thereby DECREASING penetration.

Honestly, there aren't many rounds out there that can do anything better than another without giving up something else, and honestly all the rounds we've been talking about are plenty adequate to ruin the bad guy's day.

atblis
June 10, 2008, 02:41 PM
What contributes most to penetration is the Ballistic Coefficient
I wouldn't say that. Ballistic coefficient addresses the aerodynamic properties of a bullet. Sectional density is the single parameter that contributes the most to both the B.C. and penetration.

Phil DeGraves
June 10, 2008, 02:42 PM
Accordingly with the Hodgdon reload data center, I can load a 40 S&W with 135 gr. bullets within SAAMI specs (Longshot powder) at 1480 fps..which translates in 656 ft/lb...
Which you probably wouldn't want to shoot in a GLOCK.

Truly, the 9mm +P+ ammo which is 115 grains at about 1400fps (upper limit) is hardly less than 50% the energy of the .40 load you mentioned. In fact it trumps many medium .40 loads under the criteria you are listing. Don't compare apples and oranges here.

saturno_v
June 10, 2008, 03:14 PM
Phil

You are comparing apples and oranges here..

Yes by powerful I mean energy...I know, i know, raw "horsepower" is a limited part of a round capability but it is the most widely recognized parameter comparing cartridges so let's play with that

That Buffalo bore 9 mm +P+ is just what it is...an over the spec (SAAMI) overpressure load....so the comparisons are off.

Let's take an ever hotter +P load in 9 mm ..Double Tap 115 gr. at 511 ft/lb...impressive huh??

Well, the same company makes a 40 S&W 135 gr. (20 gr. of bullet weight more) at well over 600 ft/lb within SAAMI specs

As I said in my previous message, Hodgdon list one load, within SAAMi limit, for the 135 gr. 40 S&W that reaches 656 ft/lb

If a Glock blows up is a Glock problem because that load is within SAAMI limits and every pistol in 40 S&W or any other caliber for that matter, should withstand specs pressures for that caliber plus a margin of safety.

Limits for me are the SAAMI specs for the 2 cartridges, which are both at 35.000 psi (38.500 for the 9 mm +P)

So yes, the +P 9 mm loads can reduce that 50% gap (still with lighter bullets than a 40) but it remains a significant difference and, furthermore, +P ARE NOT standard 9 mm loads and some pistol manufacturers warn you very clearly in their manual against the use of overpressure ammo.

Same for the .45.....many .45 enthusiast when compare energy numbers they post data for the hot +P loads..a 45 ACP +P is not a standard 45 ACP.

There are small niche ammo manufacturers and experienced reloaders that have pushed the 40 S&W well over 700 ft/lb, but again that doesn't count because these are out of specs loads.

So I repeat my claim...loaded at its SAAMI limits the 40 S&W outperform the STANDARD NON +P 9 mm in term of energy at +-50%...then you can have an hyper hot overpressure 9 mm load and a sissy .40 load like the Hornady 180 gr...it doesn't change the equation.

Atblis is right..the major contributor to penetration is the sectional density parameter...bullet coefficient doens't come into play for penetration

The 135 gr .40 bullet has still slightly better sectional density than a 115 gr. 9 mm...so more bullet weight, better SD, more energy..you do the math

combatantr2
June 10, 2008, 07:42 PM
:neener::D:evil:

Seriously, in hi-cap pistols they offer more rounds.

SAWBONES
June 10, 2008, 08:34 PM
What will a 40 do better than a .45?

Wear out your gun faster.

chieftain
June 11, 2008, 02:18 AM
For those still unprejudiced by fact, here is a bunch of references about THE STANDARD. I did not invent it, obviously you don't know about it. Don't like it? Go fight with NATO.

Someone asked. Standard barrel length for 9 and 40 is four inches, 45 is 5 inches.

The last reference includes a URL to a copy of the Tech Manual. For those that still believe in the Easter bunny and need more, gosh I don't know what.

I am talking standards, many of you folks are talking......... Stuff.

I got a real laugh about the guy who said:


So I repeat my claim...loaded at its SAAMI limits the 40 S&W outperform the STANDARD NON +P 9 mm in term of energy at +-50%...then you can have an hyper hot overpressure 9 mm load and a sissy .40 load like the Hornady 180 gr...it doesn't change the equation.

+P does not break any SAAMI limit. It is at that limit. +P+ on the other hand does or can exceed the limit. (See Ruger's and S&W manual excerts at the very end)

You are right, virtually every 9mm handgun manufacturer will tell you their weapons are not certified for +P or +P+. Yet everyone of those manufacturers I know of will insist their weapons are certified for NATO ammunition. They are.

Don't like it, talk to the manufacturers, don't talk to me. There is a reason that you will not be finding any +P 40S&W loads from a major manufacturer. First there is no SAAMI certification for +P (there never has been for +P+, in any caliber) in the 40. One reason I don't care for the load.

On the various other hobgoblins that have thrown into this circus of a thread, most folks don't understand that as the bullet enters the fluid medium the bullet shape is changing, and changing the BC and SD, often continually until it is almost at rest. It does take energy to make those changes come about The differences are about energy, bullet construction, medium Fluid/density, soft tissue vs hard tissue, and bone. Energy is the ability to do work. Some loads have it more than others.

Now once again.

Standard to standard The 9mm has more energy than the 45acp or 40S&W. Don't like it, call the folks that make the standards, don't whine to me.

Caliber ain't the argument. All those other things I mentioned earlier ARE!

Suggest you spend some time over at the TacticalForums OR 10-8fORUM if you haven't been there. Both of them are very different than your run of the mill firearms board. For some of you it may be very educational. For others well..........

Go figure.

Fred

Here are the standards you were apparently unable to locate. (M882 is THE STANDARD)

Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):

Cartridge designation: US M882 ball
Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm
Powder used: HPC-26
Powder weight used: 6.0 grains
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max)
Bullet weight: 112 grains
Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm
Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet

*********************************************************************************
9mm BALL NATO 115 GR. - NATO QUALIFIED

The IMI 9mm BALL NATO 115 GR cartridge meets all STANAG 4090 requirements. Certified as NATO Qualified in 1999 with NATO DESIGN AC/116-XIIA, this 9mm round is characterized by reliability and accuracy. Sold to armies around the world.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
PARAMETERS
CATALOG NO. 10-111-A
BULLET WEIGHT 115 GRAIN 7.45 GRAM
BULLET TYPE
BALL
*MUZZLE VELOCITY(V16m) 1280 FT/SEC 390 M/SEC
*MUZZLE ENERGY 417 FT-LBS 567 JOULES
*PRESSURE:
MAXIMUM PROBABLE
MAXIMUM INDIVIDUAL
230 MPa
265 MPa

2340 KG/CM�
2700 KG/CM�
PENETRATION & ACCURACY
I.A.W. STANAG 4090

* TESTED WITH 7.85" EPVAT BARREL.
# THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4090

******************************************************

From Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition page 482:
Cartridge, Caliber 9mm Ball, NATO, M882

Weapon: Pistol, Automatic, Cal 9mm, M9, M11

Velocity: 1251 +/-25 fps at 16 meters
Pressure: 27,000 psi, max. avg.
Cartridge: 179 gr.
Case: 42 gr.
Bullet: 124 gr Copper Alloy
Propellant:
Brand: HPC 26
Type: Double Base Flake
Weight: 5 gr. 6 gr.
Point Ident: Plain Tip
*********************************************************

CARTRIDGE, 9 MM, BALL, NATO, M882
Type Classification:
HQDA (DAMA-CSM), dated 15 April 85.
Use:
Pistol, 9 mm, M9. The cartridge is intended for use
against personnel.
NOTE
M882 ammunition can be used in the
following nonstandard weapons:
Pistol Submachine Guns
HK P7 series (GE) HK MP5 (GE)
Walther P38 (GE) HK MP5SD (GE)
FN P35 (BE) IMI Uzi (IS)
Baretta M12 (IT)
FFV M45/45B (SW)
Madsen M50 (DE)
CZ M23 (CZ)
Sten MK II (UK)
Sterling 12A3 (UK)
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by the
plain bullet tip.
Tabulated Data
DODAC ............................................1305-A3(3
UNO serial number ..........................0012
UNO proper shipping
name ............................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert projectile
Weight...........................................179 gr
Length ..........................................1.165 in.
(29.591 mm)
Tracer ...............................................NA
Primer ..............................................Percussion
Fuze .................................................NA
Explosive:
Type ............................................NA
Weight ..........................................NA
Incendiary:
Type .............................................NA
Weight ..........................................NA
Propellant:
Type .............................................HPC 26
Weight...........................................6 gr
Projectile weight................................112 gr
12-5
TM 43-0001-27
Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ..............................................1.4S
Storage code .................................... Class V
DOT shipping class ..........................C
DOT designation ..............................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number................................9345211
References:
SB 700-20
TM 9-1300-206
********************************************
The last reference can be seen in it’s entirety at:

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf



Here are some quotes from S&W and Rugers latest manual's.

Note how carefull S&W walks around the +P issue, except for their pre 58 K frames. Ruger just comes out and says NATO and SAAMI standards are both alright for their pistol.

From the Smith&Wesson manual for their new M&P series pistols.

“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety
built into some revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
This ammunition should not be used in Smith & Wesson
medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such
pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the
absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the
frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is
in the open position.

“Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates
that it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated.

From the Ruger Manual for their new SR9 pistol

AMMUNITION

The RUGER® SR9TM pistols are chambered for the 9mm Parabellum (9 x 19)
cartridge. Do not attempt to load any other cartridges into the magazine or
chamber of the pistol.

The SR9TM pistols are compatible with all factory ammunition of the correct
caliber loaded to U.S. Industry Standards, including high-velocity and hollowpoint
loads, loaded in brass, aluminum, or steel cartridge cases. No 9mm
Parabellum ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI,
or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to
function in these pistols.


In the future do your own scud work. Some folks only find the facts out when they really want to, or when they agree with them.

Sheesh.

F

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
--John Adams

saturno_v
June 11, 2008, 04:28 AM
Chieftain

I'm sorry to ruin your parade but a 9 mm +P is a different load well mentioned in SAAMI and C.I.P (the European equivalent of SAAMI) tables...35.000 PSI 9 mm, 38.500 9 mm +P

A +P load is not a standard 9 mm

Here


http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

Here

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

Here

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

and here

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

However this is beside the point..even in +P fascion or in the military load you mention (not accessible to civilians anyway) the 9 mm get smacked HARD by the 40 S&W loaded to its limit....no commercial 9 mm load on average beat a commercial 40 load....feel free to check out anywhere...

Standard to standard The 9mm has more energy than the 45acp or 40S&W. Don't like it, call the folks that make the standards, don't whine to me.



FALSE and patently FALSE..I supplied to you lots of data..read it....go here http://www.hodgdon.com and check the reload data center

Check here too, the Vihtavuori (Lapua) reload data center http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriInternationalReloguide2008.pdf[/COLOR]

You post the data you want and decide, very conveniently, to ignore any other info that contrast with your theory.

Same chamber pressure, more powder and more bullet weight..do the math...

Quite few loads in 135 gr for the 40 S&W reach 656 ft/lb...way out of reach of any 9 mm load you can possibly imagine.

In 155 gr even more....all within the SAAMI limits, so standard for the 40 S&W

Some out of spec 40 S&W loads well exceeds 700 ft/lb with heavy bullets, but these are out of specs loads and do not count...

The Beretta 92 was my sidearm during my service in the Italian Army before it was adopted by the US....

On the various other hobgoblins that have thrown into this circus of a thread, most folks don't understand that as the bullet enters the fluid medium the bullet shape is changing, and changing the BC and SD, often continually until it is almost at rest. It does take energy to make those changes come about The differences are about energy, bullet construction, medium Fluid/density, soft tissue vs hard tissue, and bone. Energy is the ability to do work. Some loads have it more than others.


We were talking about simple bullet energy here....you made a very specific claim: a standard 9 mm has more energy than a standard 40 S&W, which is clearly obviously false.....end of discussion.

Then if you want to talk about BC, SD, bullet construction, tissues, gravitational field and orbital path, etc.. we can do that...it is a discussion for an other day...

atblis
June 11, 2008, 08:48 AM
However this is beside the point..even in +P fascion or in the military load you mention (not accessible to civilians anyway) the 9 mm get smacked HARD by the 40 S&W loaded to its limit....no commercial 9 mm load on average beat a commercial 40 load....feel free to check out anywhere...
+P is a standard 9x19 load. It's standardized, they sell it everywhere, and everybody uses it.

Also, you can buy M882 Ball. Both Winchester and Federal sell it. Currently it is hard to get, but that is a recent development (all going to the Sandbox?).

Ltlabner
June 11, 2008, 08:50 AM
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Huh...what was that.

Sorry, I dozed off.

SDDL-UP
June 11, 2008, 08:57 AM
The 40 S&W will allow you to carry more rounds - plain and simple!

You can tell the "haters" because they come out with oddball stories about "the guy" taking a bunch of hits and not going down. Such annecdotal information is simply useless - there are far too many scientific studies prove there is little (if any) difference between the two.

I have most of the really common defensive handgun calibers and don't feel "outgunned" with any of them. Eight rounds in the 45 ACP, 13 rounds in the 40 S&W, 13-19 rounds in 9mm, six in 357 Magnum.

For the "one shot" it's hard to not want it to be 45 ACP, but in a real fight it's hard not to want a few more rounds. You can justify your personal decision either way.

tinygnat219
June 11, 2008, 09:25 AM
These are two completely different rounds.
The .40 S&W is a fast moving heavy projectile (180 grain)

The .45ACP is a slow moving heavier projectile (230 grain). Both are different bullets built on different philosophies.

saturno_v
June 11, 2008, 10:23 AM
+P is a standard 9x19 load. It's standardized, they sell it everywhere, and everybody uses it.

Also, you can buy M882 Ball. Both Winchester and Federal sell it. Currently it is hard to get, but that is a recent development (all going to the Sandbox?).

Nobody said is not standard..but it is a 9 mm +P not a 9 mm..

I did look at Winchester and Federal catalog...there is not a mention specifically at the M882 but they do have several FMJ rounds...too bad that they do not get even close to the performance that Chieftain posted (well over 450 ft/lb)
There is only one round in the federal catalog with a 130 gr FMJ bullet listed as 9 mm +P and it reaches 416 ft/lb

Claude Clay
June 11, 2008, 11:02 AM
180 gr 45 or 40 at the same velociety:
45 might nick a artery the narrower 40 would have missed
40 penetrates deeper and may cause additional damage
all things being equal (they never are) carry what you handle best.

Seven For Sure
June 12, 2008, 09:16 PM
O.K. Chief, I forgot how to quote but I'll respond to you quoting my response to your nonsense. :) I know all about the 10mm and 357sig. I have a few or more guns chambered in each. You started with energy levels, not me. That was the point of your post, was it not? I like power. 9mm does'nt have it. Let's compare 147's to 180's and 230's. Or choose loads from each caliber with the same sectional density such as the 115, 155 and 200. Go ahead.

I would hope that with over a half decade of shooting experience, including real world life or death situations where you carried firearms for a paycheck, you would'nt feel the need to argue 9mm is as or more powerful than 40 or 45. It's just the internet. Hell, I could be that fat blonde woman from Dixie Chicks busting balls for all you know. Anyway, 9mm can't keep up with 40 or 45 in any area. It's simple physics. A heavier projectile at the same velocity of a lighter projectile is more powerful.

It's O.K. Chief. Shoot what you can well. 9mm is cheaper and easier to put more rds. on target faster, right?

GO LAKERS!!!

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