The ultimate "Appleseed Rifle" (warning opinion ahead)...


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SMLE
June 5, 2008, 11:45 PM
This is not meant to be a discussion of the merits, or lack thereof, of the M16 rifle, or the 5.56mm cartridge. This is my personal take on the simple fact that, for better or worse, that is what the US Military uses.

So what is the ultimate rifle for an Appleseed shooter or "Citizen Militia"?
Ask the US Army and Marine Corps. It's an AR15 set up as close as possible to an issue M16A2/A4.

Why the AR?
Logistics. That ALL. Plain old logistics. Commonality of ammunition, magazines, parts, accessories, maintenance and support. When GI Joe starts actually packing a SCAR in 6.8 SPC or some other rifle and caliber combo, THEN and only then would THAT rifle be the Citizen Militia's choice.

So what if you think the AR platform sucks? Or that the 5.56mm cartridge sucks?
You're not alone. BUT. As long as the 5.56mm in an AR is the standard issue of the US Armed Forces, that is the rifle and round that the Citizen Militia should have.

That's MY $0.02 worth of free opinion, YMMV.

Good shooting.

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Nolo
June 5, 2008, 11:51 PM
Dupe.

Nolo
June 5, 2008, 11:54 PM
Well, yeah, 'till we can't have such animals anymore.
Then it's time for the Mosin-Nagant to come into it's own.
In my opinion, the best citizen's rifle is the one you can shoot. Not an AR? Maybe it's a Mosin. Or an SMLE, or a Garand. Or, *gasp*, an AK.
Got an AR? Your favorite, most organic, rifle?
More power to you.

Eightball
June 5, 2008, 11:59 PM
I've actually put some thought into this over the last few days as the election stupidity heats up. Point #2 is part of the reason I am glad to own an AR at this point, among all the other goodies associated with the platform.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 12:01 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm itching to get an AR. I just think people should use what they can and learn to shoot what they can't.

SMLE
June 6, 2008, 12:08 AM
Well, yeah, 'till we can't have such animals anymore.That's when we'll need them most. And what kind of ammunition will we be taking off the "enemy"?
In my opinion, the best citizen's rifle is the one you can shoot. Not an AR? Maybe it's a Mosin. Or an SMLE, or a Garand. Or, *gasp*, an AK.All very good rifles. Which US Battalions carry them now? I love my SMLEs and my Garand. And my SAR 48. but there is not a sufficient logistics base to support those rifles. In the 1940s and '50s, the rifle I'm talking about would have indeed been the Garand. Late "50s, early '60s, the M14.
Got an AR? Your favorite, most organic, rifle?Yes , I do happen to have an AR. I bought it for just the reasons I cite in my original post. Do I think it's the "be-all, end-all" of rifle design? No. But it IS the standard arm of our military and that's why every person who believes the the idea of the Citizen Militia should own one. And I'll also offer this article by Oleg as well. http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/423557.html

Don't get me wrong, I'm itching to get an AR. I just think people should use what they can and learn to shoot what they can't.I agree completely. Learn with what you have and can use best. But strive to upgrade your gear to the same standard as Uncle Sam.

Wildfire
June 6, 2008, 12:13 AM
Hey there:
Some years ago I had an AR built for me. .223 .....
May sound funny to some but, I am not NATO governed.
Never will be. So my point here is Ammo is a changeable issue.
I have tested hollow points in my Ar and found that they are very accurate.
Way past any thing an AK or SKS or etc, could possilbly be. And at ranges they are not capable of. Those little 55 grain hollow points are nasty when they hit. I would never choose a shorter range round over the range of the .223... You can carry more ammo. Yes , I have a long range .308 bolt gun and that would do what it is intended to do and do it well. But the older I get the more distance I would like to keep between me and an agressor. (enemy).

Maybe some of the AKs and others would be OK at closer ranges, but I still would rather have what I know.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 12:13 AM
That's when we'll need them most. And what kind of ammunition will we be taking off the "enemy"?
Whatever I can get. It's a case-by-case basis. If that's 7.62x51, then it's 7.62x51. If I can't shoot the thing, my ammo is wasted anyway.
Of course, no one is claiming the AR is hard to shoot. :D
not a sufficient logistics base to support those rifles
There's more .303 in the world than 5.56, I almost guarantee it. And that's with most of it being used up!
But strive to upgrade your gear to the same standard as Uncle Sam.
Have an AR if you can, I agree. It's a must-have rifle. Or at least something similar. But not everyone can.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 12:15 AM
should own one
Owning and using are two different things entirely. Some of us may not be cut out to use an AR.
I know it really ain't my style...

SMLE
June 6, 2008, 12:20 AM
There's more .303 in the world than 5.56, I almost guarantee it. And that's with most of it being used up!In the world? Yes. In the US? That is a good question. As for 7.62x51, that would keep your FAL or HK running for a while, But in a "STHF" situation, whose going to repair this rifles? You would likely wind up with an M16 anyway, even if it's not "your style". Of course an M14/M1A would be in the ballpark for the point I'm trying to make, I'll concede that. And in a SHTF situation, I just might grab an M240.

But the basic point I'm driving at here is that, LOGISTICALLY, the AR is the rifle of choice for the prepared Militia man/woman.

Good Shooting.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 12:23 AM
In the world? Yes. In the US? That is a good question. As for 7.62x51, that would keep your FAL or HK running for a while, But in a "STHF" situation, whose going to repair this rifles? You would likely wind up with an M16 anyway, even if it's not "your style". Of course an M14/M1A would be in the ballpark for the point I'm trying to make, I'll concede that.
You adapt. If adapting lands you with an AR (as it will, most of the time), then that is that. If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely.

SMLE
June 6, 2008, 12:25 AM
You adapt. If adapting lands you with an AR (as it will, most of the time), then that is that. If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely.Well said sir.

Oohrah
June 6, 2008, 12:39 AM
Yep, own the ugly black rifle with multiple mags, cause I can. Nope, not my
1st choice of grab to use. That would most likely be one of my Garands
SKS are kept for ammo that someone else might have. All my semi autos
could be battle or sport rifles, as each caliber is backed by a scoped bolt
gun. The bolts run forever without breakage in your SHTF ideas. Also
ammo in a possible broken down semi auto can be run in them. Bolts also
leave your reloadable brass in a neat little pile!!!:D

Wildfire
June 6, 2008, 12:51 AM
Hey ;
Here is ugly.

Opps , Won't let me put photo on.

dstorm1911
June 6, 2008, 12:55 AM
SMLE "As for 7.62x51, that would keep your FAL or HK running for a while, But in a "STHF" situation, whose going to repair this rifles?"

Why simple........ me of course, they are onea the absolute simplest semi auto battle rifles ever designed..... can ya reset the headspace on your AR in the field without tools? I can with a FAL and a multiplier ;) the really cool part is...... they seldom need repair

jackdanson
June 6, 2008, 01:01 AM
But in a "STHF" situation

I don't know what the Space Technology Hall of Fame has to do with this thread. In the confines of a spaceship I would prefer a knife to a firearm.. especially a .308.

Or wait, did you mean the Saskatchewan Team Handball Federation?

SMLE
June 6, 2008, 01:08 AM
Why simple........ me of course, they are onea the absolute simplest semi auto battle rifles ever designed..... can ya reset the headspace on your AR in the field without tools? I can with a FAL and a multiplier the really cool part is...... they seldom need repair But what if you're cut off from your supply of spares? Granted you can carry several FAL head spacers (I can't remember the exact name of that part, DOH!) in a pocket, but what if you have a more catastrophic failure? And what about magazines. I can't get my FAL to work with USGI M16 mags. AND, not everybody can afford BOTH a rifle AND a large supply of spares and ammunition. If I had the resources of the .gov at my disposal, I might even prefer one of my SMLEs, but I still got myself an AR. I'm still sticking to logistics as the main point here.

Good Shooting.

elmerfudd
June 6, 2008, 02:02 AM
I think that for any kind of SHTF planning you ought to assume that there will be virtually no available spare parts or ammo once things get ugly and what is available will cost a fortune. If parts and ammo are a concern then you ought to stock up on them now while they are available.

I haven't met too many soldiers that would be willing to sell ammunition and parts off their rifles to their potential adversaries. I also don't think US troops are going to willingly leave any weapons or ammunition behind.

SMLE
June 6, 2008, 02:37 AM
I haven't met too many soldiers that would be willing to sell ammunition and parts off their rifles to their potential adversaries. I also don't think US troops are going to willingly leave any weapons or ammunition behind.Hopefully, there would be a significant number of US Troops who would consider us allies instead of adversaries. And if it came to fighting AGAINST the government, there would still be a fair amount of stealing/capturing/salvaging weapons and ammunition.

Here is an expansion on my point here. Under certain circumstances, individuals might well be able to support their favored weapons for quite some time. But what I'm getting at here is that we need COMMONALITY of weapons, ammunition and supplies for larger scale GROUP operations whether in league with the Govt. assisting in national defense and keeping order, or in the event of the civil war that would develop if we had to take up arms against the Govt. The AR15/M16 platform has the largest installed user base, support base and logistics base in the United States. While one person may be able to stash away many thousands of rounds of ammo, the next 10 might barely be able to afford the rifle and 6 magazines to fill their LBE. Working TOGETHER, they can be stronger than the sum of their parts, but ONLY if they have a common weapon system between them. If I stash away a million rounds of .303 British, but only have 3 weapons that use it while my neighbors whom I am depending on for mutual aid and defense only have 30-06es. we're ALL screwed. In a situation like Katrina, it was mostly isolated individuals and families, but I'm talking about a NATIONAL SHTF situation. To me, it's "logistics over ballistics".

86thecat
June 6, 2008, 02:46 AM
If you use the same firearm as the troops around you its sound won't identify you as a target.

If you are carrying 5.56 partitions everyone with fmj will want them.

jackdanson
June 6, 2008, 02:54 AM
Getting in once again before the close...

Bah, the chances of something like this is nil. Rights are taken away slowly, like boiling a lobster...

That said Smelly makes all valid points. With an AR there is no need to stockpile more than a few spare parts.. if it gets to the point of using it you will be able to find spares on the ground or you'll be dead.

I hate SHTF threads, people are overly concerned. If S really hit the F most of us would be dead anyway. People overestimate their ability to fight sitting behind a computer screen.

tntwatt
June 6, 2008, 02:58 AM
"logistics over ballistics".

This is the reason I have AR's Beretta's and Glock's. Millions of available parts in the USA. Do I think they are the best all round weapons? Not necessarily. Do I think I will be able to find parts and supplies for these easier if shtf. Most definitely.

These are basic necessity firearms. That doesn't mean I won't be prepared if 303,308,45, 357 etc... will be all that's around my specific area.

You adapt. If adapting lands you with an AR (as it will, most of the time), then that is that. If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely.

variablebinary
June 6, 2008, 04:41 AM
Any gun is better than no gun IMHO. If there are battles, you'll get a new gun from the dead ASAP or get killed.

The Highlander
June 6, 2008, 05:05 AM
That is unless you have an early arquebus or hand cannon in which case your gun is both inneffective and prone to blowing up on the user.

cracked butt
June 6, 2008, 08:14 AM
Any gun is better than no gun IMHO. If there are battles, you'll get a new gun from the dead ASAP or get killed.

Yep. But if you are in that situation, you'd better be way up on the learning curve on how to run that rifle you just picked up or you'll be dropping it real quick yourself.

WayneConrad
June 6, 2008, 12:31 PM
There is no ultimate Appleseed rifle, because Appleseed is not about gear.

To own the rifleman's quarter mile, you need, what, around 4MOA or so. You, a basic rifle with whatever sights let you see, a shooting sling, and the basics of riflery. Nothing fancier than that. It doesn't take a bench, a match rifle, a specially broken in barrel, hand-loaded ammo, or any tricks.

The most important thing is that you and your rifle can put the rounds inside 4MOA, reliably, from field positions under time pressure.

It doesn't matter at all what rifle it takes you to do that. It really doesn't. It should be one you can afford, is reliable, you can get and have ammo and spare parts for, and that you will practice with.

Once I get the money for it, I'm going to try out the M-14/M1A platform, given lots of GI parts and not "accurized." Seems like a good choice to me. But again, it's not that important.

Mikee Loxxer
June 6, 2008, 12:51 PM
To me it would seem that it is dubious to operate under the assumption that Uncle Sam will extend his resources to supporting the citizen militia. Do you really think if the SHTF that they would start handing out 5.56 to citizens? I would think not. Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.

Deer Hunter
June 6, 2008, 01:44 PM
In SHTF, I'm going to work my ass off to fire as LITTLE as possible, seeing as how I am simply me, and they are many.

If that makes any sense. We quarral and throw around our E-guns all day long and nothing will change. Tools are great to have, but your aptness to adapt and survive, in whatever ways possible far outweighs what you may use as a tool for survival. In these "endtime" fantasies, you will die of starvation, sickness, exposure, infection, etc far before a a bullet completely incapacitates you.

Nolo
June 6, 2008, 02:21 PM
A-men, Deer Hunter!
Survivalist all the way!

Bruenor
June 6, 2008, 02:21 PM
I wouldn't be able to afford an AR15, but I like your thoughts about common rifles/ammo. What about a Saiga in .223? Much cheaper to buy, same price to shoot. Any thoughts? Would this be usable for Appleseed?

Deer Hunter
June 6, 2008, 02:27 PM
Bruenor,

The Saiga .223 is a wonderful rifle that would do well. A pair of tech-sights for it would work nicely on it. I have a POSP scope on mine and get very good accuracy. It's close to your average off-the-rack AR. It would do well for appleseed.

ripper225
June 7, 2008, 02:41 AM
in a SHTF situation, you could pick up rifles just as easily as you could pick up mags of the zombie bodies... as long as you have SOMETHING that you can get started with

azredhawk44
June 7, 2008, 03:08 AM
WayneConrad is right.

The "Appleseed Rifle" is the rifle you have at the moment. The goal of Appleseed is to resurrect the nation of Riflemen... folks who could take any serviceable rifle handed to them on the spot, from an SKS to a NEF Handi-Rifle to an AR to a Berrett .416, and shoot to a 4 MOA standard in order to own the "Rifleman's Quarter Mile."

The "Appleseed Rifle" is a spontaneous creature that exists in spirit more than substance and category...

And above all, the "Appleseed Rifle" is a subcomponent of the "Appleseed Rifleman," a renaissance man that honors the sacrifices of our founding fathers and participates in grass-roots activism of the Soft War so that he is assured he will never have to use his rifle for its true, awful pupose later.

stevelyn
June 7, 2008, 12:01 PM
To me it would seem that it is dubious to operate under the assumption that Uncle Sam will extend his resources to supporting the citizen militia. Do you really think if the SHTF that they would start handing out 5.56 to citizens? I would think not. Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.

It's very likely that when SHTF day arrives, Uncle Sam will be the enemy.

Nhsport
June 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
I understand the appleseed program isn't about gear but teaching you to use whatever you bring and learning the basic skills to better shoot any rifle.
If one has the available funds to purchase an AR or friends that will loan you one I would think it would be a very desiriable choice for the class.
The AR has very good iron sights,It has light recoil and a variety of available stocks to fit many body sizes which along with its light weight would make it more suitable for use by smaller folks than some of the full size mil-surps.
The good accuracy of the stock AR with plain Ball type ammo would lead to better understanding of the fundamental skills being taught . Someone shooting a SKS with surplus ammo will be hampered by a dificult set of sights,a pretty heavy trigger, a stock grip more in line with the typical russian farmer (kind of like grabbing a 2X4) and questionable ammo performance that all leads to minute of pie plate accuracy even in the hands of an experienced shooter.
The AR if available will reward decent shooting skills with decent results. No excuses,Bad performance with an AR is the result of bad performance of the skill sets being taught. Better learned skills will demonstrate better shooting. The cause and effect will be demonstrated more clearly.

gp911
June 7, 2008, 08:39 PM
WHOA!

2 things...

1. If we're scavenging ammo from dead folks serving our gov't after the SHTF can't we scavenge the rifle too? Buy what you want!

b) :D Appleseed is a basic rifleman qualifying course. A good rifle in general will perform if you do _your_ part...

Back to you...

gp911

ROMAK IV
June 7, 2008, 09:57 PM
Please..... So what is the ultimate rifle for an Appleseed shooter or "Citizen Militia"?
Ask the US Army and Marine Corps. It's an AR15 set up as close as possible to an issue M16A2/A4.

Why the AR?
Logistics. That ALL. Plain old logistics. Commonality of ammunition, magazines, parts, accessories, maintenance and support. When GI Joe starts actually packing a SCAR in 6.8 SPC or some other rifle and caliber combo, THEN and only then would THAT rifle be the Citizen Militia's choice.

So what if you think the AR platform sucks? Or that the 5.56mm cartridge sucks?
You're not alone. BUT. As long as the 5.56mm in an AR is the standard issue of the US Armed Forces, that is the rifle and round that the Citizen Militia should have.

That's MY $0.02 worth of free opinion, YMMV.


It's pretty simple to figure out, buy a rifle tha doesn't need "a logistical supply line and get enough ammunition, around 10,000 rounds to provide a prolonged supply. And besides, the merits of an AR-15 rifle and the 5.56 round are more than relevant. Personally, I really don't believe the powers that be, are going to "acivate the civilian militia" and why would they? If a situation is truely "shtf" how are you or anyone else going to know exactly what is going to happen. I don't own an AR but there is nothing basically wrong woth the rifle, although it reqires a certain level of maintenance to keep operating, and if you happen to want one, that is quite okay and even if you don't want one it is wise to know how to operate and maintain one anyway. Me. I prefer a more powerful rifle cartridge and a more robust rifle than an AR. And I don't want to have to rely on dubious logistical support or having to scrounge weapons and ammunition off of the dead. Besides, an AR of the type you describe is illegal to own in certain parts of the country now, most notably California, Garands, M1-A's, and MN's and all manners of bolt action rifles, are not. A Garand is perfect, parts and gunsmithing are quite cheap for what it is, and the government is currently selling the ammunition right now. They are sealed for long storage and they are packed ready to use. For the price of an AR, like you describe, you cold buy a totally rearsenaled Moison Nagant and about 6000 rounds of ammunition. while with the AR, you still haven't een bought the ammunition yet, which is over twice the cost of the 7.62 x 54R.

Ignition Override
June 8, 2008, 12:40 AM
Deer Hunter: Yes.

In the Civil War, mostly because of limited medical/pharmaceutical knowledge (I suppose), the majority of soldier fatalities were due to infection or sickness, instead of the battlefield.

You guys (and a few gals) might enjoy some Internet sites which describe how the Finns beat the Soviets in the long-forgotten "Winter War",
with Soviet-designed rifles, i.e. the Mosin Nagant

Zoogster
June 8, 2008, 05:06 AM
Have you seen what happens to people that group up armed in Iraq?

Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.
Don't forget the checkpoints, and people found with arms had them taken away.
It's very likely that when SHTF day arrives, Uncle Sam will be the enemy.

Most of such a 'war' would be fought with explosives and concealable weapons. If you think you would exchange fire for long before death from above came, you are mistaken.
Hit and run tactics and ambushes. Weapons that are not concealable would have little use most of the time.
Your adversary will also all be wearing body armor and plates that defeat intermediate caliber rifles. So something concealable and capable of defeating the armor while at the same time still doing enough damage to stop the target from returning fire are the requirements.

Many would be in vehicles designed to defeat most civilian owned small arms. You better know how to make shaped charges to disable APCs and armored patrols as necessary.

You need some very heavy hitting concealable small arms when you do face soft targets, because they are well protected.
Such designs are not currently popular, and those that are are generaly NFA items, and the government is well aware of those legaly possessed.

If you really believe you would be walking around with a several foot long rifle when there is checkpoints setup and aircraft and artillery on standby for coordinates you are going to have an explosive reality check.

The ideal firearms will be something under 2 feet long, at least concealable under a coat, and capable of defeating most SAPI plates.
That means energy figures in excess of 7.62x51mm/.308 are the starting point, and it must have those figures from a short barrel. Projectile designs that defeat armor better are also more useful.
Hollowpoints and things designed for use in soft tissue are less effective.
Such a compact arm firing such rounds would also need to be quite heavy to have manageable recoil, or incorporate technology that reduces recoil not common now.


My point is the ideal arm for long range engagements against soldiers in sapi plates is very hard to be mobile with in such an environment. So the most capable and useful arm in such a situation is something very different than most of us are used to. It is not the standard battle rifles people picture, and it is not in the calibers of most battle rifles.


A several foot long rifle is just a good way to be targeted.
You also must stay constantly mobile. Anyone that stays in one place long against superior forces with air support will not last. While mobile you cannot appear obviously armed, and must blend in.
IEDs and ambushes are your friend, open engagements are not. That means small arms are a secondary tool for such a fight, not the primary one.
Such a war lasts a long time, at least until the economy can no longer support the military well enough. That takes many years, and the quality of life for most citizens must get very low before the government is struggling (because the taxes that support them come from such an economy, as do most of the raw materials).

MTMilitiaman
June 8, 2008, 06:50 AM
Don't forget the checkpoints, and people found with arms had them taken away.

If I am given warning beforehand and still don't bug out, why the hell would I ever bug out after?

If there is a serious pending natural disaster or emergency and we are told to leave, then I am packing my crap and leaving, and I am staying off the highways and the freeways to do it. I'll be taking the unpaved single lane country roads back in the sticks where there are so many different roads they'd have to checkpoint that it would basically be impossible.

Logging roads, powerline maintenance roads, train track maintenance roads, state and county roads...they can't put checkpoints on all of them and expect to have enough manpower to make the checkpoints on any of them effective.

And once I get where I am going, we have land with gardens and orchards, wild game, chickens, several generators, solar power with battery banks, an irrigation system, and enough basic medical and health supplies to be self-sufficient for at least a period of several months. In fact, if the disaster is localized and doesn't affect the whole country, I could watch everything unfold on TV while waving at the news camera. I wouldn't even miss the Super Bowl. If it did affect the entire country, it means I watch less TV, and read more.

The worst part is limited internet connection minimizing THR exposure ;)

As for rifles and equipment in general and the AR-15 in particular--I was trained on one. I can shoot one. I qualified 'expert' with one. I know I can keep one running. But I still can't stand the thing. For SHTF situations, I'd rather have an AK than an AR, and rather have an M1A or FAL than my AK. If I run out of ammo or have a catastrophic failure with my primary weapon, we have enough rifles laying around that I could cope, and eventually, I am fine with picking up one of their rifles. If it is an AR/M16, then I am still fairly familiar with it. If not, then I am reasonably intelligent, and have been around rifles long enough that I feel like I could learn, whether it be an SA80, AUG, G36, FAMAS (God forbid we ever get invaded by the French), or whatever the N. Koreans and Chinese are cooking up now days.

As has already been brought up, with proper fundamentals, the equipment is semantics and largely irrelevant. People tend to focus on the arrow and not the Indian. So when they can't hit COM past 50 yards with their AK, they assume it is the rifle, when any halfway competent rifleman can keep most of their rounds from even a 4 to 6 MOA rifle like the Kalashnikov COM out to at least 200 yards. I know I can, because I've done it. If you can't, I say bump fire less, use sights more, and focus on the fundamentals.

[Steps off soap box]

variablebinary
June 8, 2008, 07:15 AM
Get a rifle, and learn to shoot it well...

I know people have romantic images of WWII street to street battles, but in reality one or two men that are really good shots can cause all kinds of havoc and get the hell out of Dodge before the JDAM's are called in.

If there is ever SHTF, most of the idiots running around with multicam, thigh rigs, tricked out AR15's, and Oakleys will get cut in half by locals with deer rifles at 200 yards. Why? because they spent more on gear than shooting and training.

It amazes me how many people spend thousands on gear and about $500 bucks on ammo a year...

Other than that, think small weapons so you can hit hard and move fast, and once again, get the hell out of Dodge before armor rolls over you.

chieftain
June 8, 2008, 07:37 AM
Zoogster!

BINGO BINGO BINGO!

I don't believe the number of folks, particularly ex military, that don't really understand The US Military order of Battle.

You will be lucky to see the Recon unit, troops, Unmanned aircraft, manned aircraft, remote sensors or satellite that locates you.

You might if your lucky, be able to hold off the weapons used to 'fix' you, until the really heavy weapons come in to destroy you.

Remember those wonderful video's of **** meeting our latest whizzbang heavy Intelligent weapon. You will be the guy in the picture. Or meet the wrong end of a Bradly, Abrams or one of those ungodly accurate artillery barrages. Neat stuff, if you ain't on the receiving end.

AS to the AR15/M16/M4 family. Most folks argue logistics to justify or rationalize their choice.

Picking a rifle that has a 6000 round scheduled life, in only it's best manufactured forms, don't sound to bright to me. And frankly the rifles most civilians own, wouldn't last that long in combat conditions.

As to finding combat discards or KIA weapons. You only get to find them if you win the battle. Otherwise the other guys will still be busy, looking for and killing/capturing you.

If I had to go mobile, my CCW full size 1911 (vs and of my SIG's, Glock's, S&W revolvers), which I can maintain and carry parts for, and my XCR which when folded will fit in my pack. No one will know I am carrying a fighting rifle. If I get real worried about finding ammo, I could also get the 7.62x39 conversion, barrel and bolt and be able to scrounge or lay in additional Ammo.

My M1A/M14 M1 Garand are both chambered for 7.62 NATO. My M1A carbine with it's folding stock or either Springfield 03-A3 or US Enfield Pattern 1917 30-06 will do for fighting bolt actions.

Or use my Redneck assault rifle, my Winchester 94 lever.

This kind of fight ain't about rifles and pistols, it's about politics, tactics and strategies.

I don't like either of our Presidential candidates. Hussein is a Socialist at best, and I have known McCain personally for 26 years (yea, first names) and don't like or trust him.

I will probably go McCain out of a total feeling of least worst. The Libertarian, is nothing but a vote for Hussein. I used to laugh at the folks that voted for Peroit and had the bumper stickers that said, "Don't blame me I voted for Peroit", they were the folks that elected AND reelected Bubba Clinton. Clinton was never elected with 50% +1 or more of the vote.

The fight is now in the elections, VOTE. I believe as a strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment, we need to choose McCain as the least worse, and the most 'likely' to place judges that are more apt to interpret the Constitution as written vs as they would have wrote it.

Rant over.

Quick aside. As Zoogster says, carrying a visible rifle away from home, makes you a visible target for everyone. Good guys, Badguys, anyone. If you came through my neighborhood during a period of Natural disaster, or Civil distress, I wouldn't be looking to kindly on you. SHTF situations are about avoidance essentially E&E, not fighting. (I was in Hialeah Florida after Hurricane Andrew in 92, for a short while. I was literally riding 'shotgun'. I am a Florida boy, and I have been through a ton of Hurricanes. But nothing matched the devastation I saw for myself that day. I can only take what I saw on TV, and extend my own experience, into what happened in Louisiana and Mississippi.)

Your day to day CCW should be able to handle these situations, away from home too. Your CCW needs to be more than just comfortable. It needs to be able to do a potential raft of jobs, that a firearm, may be asked to accomplish.

Go figure.

Fred

Nameless_Hobo
June 8, 2008, 11:24 AM
I wouldn't count on receiving spare parts from the government.

You ask for it, they're likely to disarm you at gunpoint.
You try to steal it, they'll shoot you.

Perhaps I'm just bitter, but I just can't see the government changing overnight from hostile to armed citizens, to handing out ammunition and spare parts so civilian militias can go fight the invasion, or put down zombies, or help keep civil peace, etc.

Everyone else has already said, waltzing about with a "baby killing assault rifle" garners too much attention, anyway.

Geronimo45
June 8, 2008, 03:43 PM
In the advent of an invasion of the US, I can't see the government handing out spare parts an ammo to us. They'll be wanting all they have, maybe scouring gun shops and Wal-Marts for more ammo. We'd probably be considered illegal combatants as per the Geneva Convention anyways.

ROMAK IV
June 8, 2008, 04:18 PM
Checkpoints! Please! The US military is not now and has never been large enough to administer that kind of occupation, and therre aren't enough federal agents available either, and at least 1/2, like the military, will be support personnel. I am not discounting the strength of the military, but 200.000 combat troops, is it is possible to muster that many, just aren't going to cut it. Too many assets in the US are soft, which is why it has been so unwise to neglect the US borders. That is not our system of government, no matter what certain politicians believe and want everyone to believe. So you can believe it if you want to, that the government is so strong, it can do what it wants, and if that is the case, you might as well not even try, be the first in line to turn it your guns and rat on your neighbors. Because, you just aren't going to be able to get RPG's and such. So, let's get off that kind of talk before this thread gets shut down. I think it is an interesting and informative topic, so let's get back to it, without the other.

taprackbang
June 8, 2008, 11:09 PM
I went to an Appleseed in OK a few months ago and I used my Mosin Nagant M44. After the shoot was completed, I was in, shall we say, PAIN. But, I wanted to have fun and no one really told me before hand that a LTR was the preferred platform. (Ruger 10/22 w/ Tech Sights) I love the M44 because it is a fire breathing dragon.
The best group I shot that day was standing and aiming for the 100 yard shadow on the upper left of the AQT target. 5 hits!!

chieftain
June 9, 2008, 12:24 AM
I went to an Appleseed in OK a few months ago and I used my Mosin Nagant M44. After the shoot was completed, I was in, shall we say, PAIN. But, I wanted to have fun and no one really told me before hand that a LTR was the preferred platform. (Ruger 10/22 w/ Tech Sights) I love the M44 because it is a fire breathing dragon.
The best group I shot that day was standing and aiming for the 100 yard shadow on the upper left of the AQT target. 5 hits!!

Good shooting!

I used to carry a M14 'at work'. Used it 'at work' a bunch too. I used to shoot expert with Iron sights out to 500 yds. Nothing on earth could get me to trust the widow maker.

But I would probably use my Robinson Arms XCR (folding stock That will disappear in my pack) or my WWII US Postal Meter M1A1 Carbine (the Para stock which is not correct on a Postal Meter but works great. Like the XCR disappears in a pack or other none gun cases), today. Frankly have better optics and stuff on the XCR. M3 and with both on quick release mounts, The AimPoint 3X magnifier too.

I have every attachment except the BUIS (it ain't coming off) on Larue quick attach/detach mounts. White lite and magnifier is kept in the BOB. At home for HD I put the white light on (Surefire 9P with LED replacement head) Even the FG is attached via the Larue Fast on/off system. It works for me. I hope to get my 7.62 conversion kit in a few months. In my case more for access to a greater variety of ammunition than any other reason And that 7.62x39 is cheapest to shoot.

I can't see that far now. 200/300 yards is fine with me and my trifocals today.

I no longer fight the NVA, I now must fight the VA.

Go figure.

Fred

Pigspitter
June 9, 2008, 12:36 AM
If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely. I think the valuable lesson we should take from this is the fact that a Mosin is just as useful without cartridges than with them.

taprackbang
June 9, 2008, 01:01 AM
Rifles:
Mosin Nagant M44(7.62x54R)
Henry H001(.22lr)
Custom Remington 700LTR(.308Win)
Lee-Enfield MkIII (.303British)


I am very tempted to try a Lee Enfield. It sounds like a great rifle.
I heard a guy at a local gun store in Arlington TX. ranting and raving about the K31 Swiss. I think I may eventually plop down the cash for one.

Meanwhile, time to stock up on .308 and 7.62X54r!

See ya.

taprackbang
June 9, 2008, 01:05 AM
Did they let you keep your M14 and take it home as a souvie? :)

SMLE
June 9, 2008, 01:18 AM
I will likely take my Bushmaster A2. Might take my SR-48 too. I would like to put together one of those "LTRs" for fun too, but lack the $$$ :(

H088
June 9, 2008, 01:43 AM
You kill your enemies, you take there gear. Never ending supply.

Also, the US military as a whole would never actively attack or disarm civilians, if it came down to it a good part of the military would break off and join us.

MTMilitiaman
June 9, 2008, 03:52 AM
This whole argument is merely mental masturbation if we are considering fighting a full scale invasion my an organized and properly equipped military force, esp our own, that is willing to bomb civilian targets.

While I think snipers, guerrilla warfare, and IEDs have proven to be plenty effective against even a modern military such as ours, I don't think we currently have the organization or funding to be as efficient as our enemies abroad, nor do I like our chances of winning against a determined adversary. To me, anything that requires me to engage a tank or fighter jet with my M1A means I am just holding out as long as possible. At that point, it's the Warsaw Ghetto, nothing else.

The good news is that very few American service men and women are going to break down American doors and shoot Americans in their own houses, and even fewer are going to drop bombs inside America's towns on civilian targets. At least, that is the current attitude as I perceived it when I was in.

The bad news is that does not account for the UN, very anxiously awaiting the results of our elections to determine the likely success or failure of their persistent attempts at disarming our civilian populace. I don't think it necessarily accounts for power-mongering zealots and thugs in various domestic para-military police organizations who have made it their calling to bust down American doors and shoot Americans, and I certainly don't trust the Chinese or North Koreans, though I feel the threat of invasion by either is pretty much non-existent.

chieftain
June 9, 2008, 04:01 AM
Chieftain

Did they let you keep your M14 and take it home as a souvie?

Don't I wish! They had no sense of humor about the selector either. I offered to put one of the selector locks on it too. No Go.

I now have a pre ban Springfield M1A/M14. Actually it shoots pretty good.

I have a story: I had recently picked up my M1A and was sighting it in at about 400yds. I was prone and talking to my buddy. (we were on private land of another buddies of ours) Anyway I am running my mouth, turn to load a full magazine. I do what I always did in Nam slam the mag on my helmet to set the rounds, and load.

I had forgotten that I didn't have a helmet on. Hurt like hell too!!!

You kill your enemies, you take there gear. Never ending supply.

Also, the US military as a whole would never actively attack or disarm civilians, if it came down to it a good part of the military would break off and join us.

Only if you win the battle. Just cause you got a few of the other guys, don't mean they are going to stand around and watch you strip their buddy. Usually get pretty sensitive about that.

AS to whether our well disciplined troops would or would not follow their orders? Well, I bet the majority would.

After all, how has the civilian world treated them?

I would not put my life or the life of my family on the religious beliefs of other people. You may be right, but I frankly and respectfully disagree with you. I believe most of the troops will follow their orders. Just like the Cops. Most will follow their orders. If you don't believe that, just look at New Orleans, or the Check points the DC police are running right now.

History and facts don't bear you out. US troops have fired on and/or acted on US civilians before, several times. Think WACO. They used IIRC either Reserve or National Guard Choppers in an armed assault. What do you think has changed?

Go figure.

Fred

Tarvis
June 9, 2008, 10:28 AM
I put together a 20" A2 for an appleseed shoot.

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