Your kit for safari in "The Lost World"


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sixgun_symphony
January 13, 2003, 04:12 AM
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Lost World" TV Series (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/lostworld/)


It's 1920, and you have been hired to go on an expedition to "The Lost World".

What is your kit? (Remember it's 1920)

I would take a Winchester M1895 chambered in .405 Winchester and a Colt New Service revolver chambered in .45 Colt.

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rick458
January 13, 2003, 04:48 AM
A nice Holland and Holland in .470 Nitro Express, and Colt SAA in.45 Colt and Many Many rounds and food medical equipment
and nice Chikas for the cold night.:D

El Tejon
January 13, 2003, 08:22 AM
What about a double 8 bore? Lizards are slow bleeders.:D

Lone Star
January 13, 2003, 08:30 AM
We did this one at The Firing Line, and we kicked it around at www.lostworldtv.net and I had a blast thinking about it.

Alas, on TFL, most of our replies came from people who refused to keep the 1920 date in mind. Many wanted to bring machineguns, not likely to be allowed a civilian expedition to South America. We discussed where the Plateau is, and I think it's most likely in Brazil or Venezuela; the syndicated TV show never says. (Don't confuse the series with the several movies based on the book.)

My gun choices ranged from a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector Second Model .44/40 to an M&P .38 of their make, to a Colt M1911 .45 like Lord Roxton and Ned Malone carry on the show when they aren't using Webleys, to a Colt SAA .45 Colt with 7.5 inch barrel. (Prof. Challenger on the show uses a 5.5 inch bbl. SAA).

My rifles would be a 7x57MM (.275) Rigby, a Winchester .44/40 M92, a H&H .375 Magnum, and a H&H or Westley Richards .500 double. Keep in mind that Sasha Siemel was operating in Brazil at that time, and in, "Tigrero!", he noted the prevalence of Winchester and Smith & Wesson .44's... so we could get ammo resupply in .44/40, at least. (Up until we took the canoes upriver past the end of civilization.)

Hey: I just thunk a thought! Remember the first two episodes, that they showed also as a separate movie? The guide said that he was only taking the expedition upcountry because someone in Manaus was trying to kill him, and he had to get out of town. So, it does seem to be set in Brazil. (The guns are much better in later episodes.) (Note Rachel's S&W New Departure Safety Hammerless .38, among others.)

I offered to write an article publicizing the series, covering the guns, and the Reeves-Stevens couple (who are the primary script writers) frequent the board mentioned above, but no one came forward to put me in touch with a prop man who could talk about which guns they use and why. The interviews with the stars were useless; Will Snow said he doesn't know anything about guns. He just points them and shoots them when and where the director says to. (Rachel Blakely, who plays Marguerite, DOES know how to use a whip, and she fences. Can you believe that this foxy babe was a bouncer in a Sydney night club before she became an actress?) And someone has shown Jennifer O'Dell how to hold a knife in her role as Veronica. We're trying to set up an interview (online) with a prop man, similar to those done with several stars. Peter MacCauley (Challenger) will post an interview this month. See the board for details.

If you like this swell fantasy/adventure series that has won the hearts of an even more loyal audience than did the original "Star Trek", get over to www.lostworldtv.net and join us. Members reside in about eight countries. For the forums (where we discuss all sorts of things besides the show), hit the "Message Boards" button on the main display when the screen comes up. And if you have video capability, watch the scene where Jen does her fight sequence that will later be dubbed in with a dinosaur fighting her. That gal can act a lot better than I at first gave her credit for, and all the Lost World cast seem like very nice people, which isn't often the case with actors. Jen and Rachel are even close friends who shop/lunch together and are learning to sew while the show is on hiatus. Most women stars seem to detest one another as competition...

By the way, later this month negotiations should be well underway as to whether we'll see a 4th season. The Reeves-Stevenses post a weekly news update on this most Thursdays.
Oh: Rachel posts on the board (very occasionally) as "Bubba", which is an Aussie form of "Baby"; what her boyfriend calls her. Jen frequently browses the board, and is said to be very sophisticated with computers. Not bad for a California blonde...

End of "Lost World" commercial.

Oh: in addition to your local listings, "The Lost World" appears on TNT at 6:00 AM Central Time in the USA, Monday-Friday.

Lone Star
("Explorer" on the "Lost World" board)

GhostShooter
January 13, 2003, 09:41 AM
Um..everybody knows that dinosarus weren't around till the mid 90's http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/scared.gif (Jurassic Park) DUHhttp://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/ban.gif

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

GhostShooter
January 13, 2003, 09:43 AM
.

JMLV
January 13, 2003, 12:38 PM
I think that mostly the arms used by will snows caractor are excellent. Especially the boig bore double rifle and the bolt gun.
I really like the nickeled webleys but would prefer a pait of nickled 24's in 44 special myself (loaded with elmers 44 "Special" loads of course. Thanks for the additional info on the series I have been having trouble finding it of late. great show. So far I have managed to get 4 versions of the made for tv movie on tape. Including one 4 hr epic from A&E. The neartest are the two different versiond of the TV series pilots. In the first will snow's caractor is evil and a villin, in the second he is as seen on the series. kinda neat seeing the two views.

Lone Star
January 13, 2003, 06:52 PM
Actually, the crew on the show have used quite a few guns. Will Snow usually has a bolt action. I think I've seen a Sako Safari Grade, a CZ ZKK, a sporter made on the M1914/1917 Enfield or Remington M30 action (the safety catch is distinctive) and several characters have used SMLE sporters, including Marguerite.

Sometimes, Marguerite has a hammerless Webley .38 in lieu of her usual S&W break-top, and a number of actors have used Mk. IV Webley .38's as well as Will's white-butted .455's. He loaded one in an episode that showed a closeup, and he had the correct .455 ammo, too.

Next time they show the episode, "Trophies", where the bad guys capture Veronica, look at the head bad guy's rifle. It's one of the .303's.

We have a theory that the rental house sends over different guns at different times in the current filming season, according to what they have on hand and what the rental fees are. That's why the same guy who captured Veronica had a Ruger Blackhawk instead of the correct Colt SAA. But if the Reeves-Stevenses can set up an interview with the property master, I plan to ask about this.

Don't forget to check in at the official site and read the archived interviews with the stars and watch for Peter's interview in the next week or two. The interviews are filed in the forum, "Treehouse News" and they're good. The stars were unusually generous with their time, and were very gracious. Rachel Blakely was just learning to use a computer, and struggled a bit, so she came back and answered additional questions after the official interview was over.

You can help us decide one of the perennial questions that we kick around from time to time: which of the three gals (Veronica, Marguerite, or Finn) is the hottest?

Lone Star

Owen
January 13, 2003, 07:06 PM
machine guns were totally available in the 20's, and not all that expensive. I want a Colt Monitor! (was that out yet?) The perfect tool for labor relations!

Owen

Lone Star
January 13, 2003, 07:11 PM
Owen, would the Brazilian govt. authorize you to bring in a submachine gun? Back then, who knows; the type was just appearing, and they may not have regulated it yet.

One guy above wanted S&W M24's, a gun not made until after WWII! He'd have had to rely on Triple Lock or Second Model Hand Ejectors if he wanted a S&W .44 Special in 1920, and Elmer Keith hadn't publicized his handloads yet...

See? This topic can be tricky, and you have to THINK what was out in 1920...

Lone Star

NotQuiteSane
January 14, 2003, 12:31 AM
I'd take one of the better WWI tanks.

NQS

Uncle Ethan
January 14, 2003, 12:52 AM
I would take a Colt New Service in 44-40 and either a Rem 1914 Enfield customized or a Mauser customized in .416 . I'm not sure what knife would be best to skin out my trophies.:D

mack
January 14, 2003, 01:35 AM
Easy, and yes I am one of those "bad" people who must ruin things by bringing up machine guns. However the question is what would you bring to deal with Dino's and assorted bad guys.

Since, I would put a premium on staying alive, and since if I could afford to mount an expedition, I could also afford to bribe/pay gratuities to any brazilian or south american official that needed to have his palm greased, I would bring in those weapons that seemed most useful to ensuring my survival.

In 1920 those weapons would be:

1911's - best combat/personal defense weapon around - not for use against dino's but useful against man sized creatures and man - if a rifle isn't handy - available after 1911

BAR's - nothing like a man portable machine gun in 30-06 - with 20 rounds a mag on tap - and 10 or more mags ready to go - available after 1918

and of course your primary Dino weapon the Ma Duece - 50 cal. belt fed machine gun, available after 1918 - remember don't wander beyond the firing range of your Ma Duece


when it is eat or be eaten - demand the very best - and at that time the best were the firearms of John Moses Browning.

Andrew Wyatt
January 14, 2003, 01:39 AM
I'd have a Model 70 in .30-06 with 220 grain bullets, a 1911, and my PH would be carrying a Colt monitor.

Lone Star
January 14, 2003, 08:38 AM
Andrew-

You can't have that Model 70: not introduced until 1937.

And your porters deserted just before you took the balloon up to the plateau, if you guys watch the series. Who's going to carry a .50 caliber Browning? In the balloon? I wouldn't even want to lug one up into Veronica's treehouse, although it would have been useful in several episodes, once there.

The BAR makes some sense, if you could carry scads of ammo. By the way, Prof. Challenger is probably reloading with black powder that he created on the Plateau. Well, Lord Roxton was actually shown reloading ammo in the Treehouse, but George makes the powder. I think they're low on smokeless ammo. How well would a BAR work with black powder?!

As for knives, the men carry English style Bowies. I*XL and Wm. Rodgers would have been excellent brands. How Veronica is supposed to have that Fairbairn-Sykes is never explained...but similar daggers surely existed long before the F-S appeared.

Lone Star

MP-44
January 14, 2003, 09:10 AM
Mannlicher Schoenaur 1903 6.5X54 using 160 gr solids & a DWM 1917 Artillery Luger, shoulder stock/holster, standard mags & snail drum. Also wouldn't mind a smuggled in case of WWI grenades.

Roger C
January 14, 2003, 05:46 PM
You're going to run out of ammo (or at least primers, if you're reloading with homemade black powder) some time. How long has that show been running now..... :p

AZTOY
January 14, 2003, 06:13 PM
gatling gun :neener:
45 LC
470 Nitro Express
http://www.gatlinggun.net/images/left_angle_rear.gif

sixgun_symphony
January 15, 2003, 02:14 AM
Since reloading with homemade blackpowder is being used, I would probably bring along a Winchester 1873 and Colt SAA chambered in .44WCF.

I will also bring in a big British 4 bore rifle. A big ouch to shoot but better than becoming a snack for some carnivorous dinosaur.

http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/images/4bore_part1_p1p20v5no4.jpg
A 500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland compared to a 4-bore.

Return of the 4-bore Part One (http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/4bore_part01_01.htm)

Lone Star
January 15, 2003, 08:17 AM
Sixgun Symphony-

I LOVE that photo showing the relative size of the double rifles! Your comments have been among the most practical yet.

As for running out of primers, I guess that Prof. Challenger may have found a way to reprime them, if he can make fulminate of mercury. (George is one of the most eminent scientists of his day; it's amazing what the scriptwriters have him capable of making. Hey: for all I know, he makes SMOKELESS powder.)

I want to see which questions the fans ask Peter McCauley in his interview this month. If you want to join the fan site, they can tell you how to submit a question for the interview, which Mr. M. will grant from his home in Christchurch, N.Z. (Not all the actors are Aussies; Jen is a Californian, and David Orth is Canadian, as is Michael Sinelnikoff, who played Dr. Summerlee in the first season.)

The expedition has been on the plateau for three years now, I think. Three TV seasons, for sure. A fourth season is still being discussed, apparently depending largely on how much tax credit the Australian govt. will grant. That's a hot topic on the board.

As for a Winchester .44/40, I chose the M92 over the M73 because it's stronger, it would take late factory loads not recommended for the M73, and because I like its looks and handling better. But if someone wants a M1873, at least it's a valid choice....

I rummaged for old ammo info, and have concluded that factory ammo in .44/40 was probably loaded much closer to specs in the old days. Mike Venturino chronographed current lots (and his handloads) for a couple of his books, and the round is now pretty anemic, as is usually the .45 Colt. I guess the manufacturers are afraid of old guns...

This is a good thread. I posted a link on it at the "Lost World" board, and got some good response. Some ladies there said their husbands would love this board, and some members there have given The High Road a look. Maybe some will join us here. It will surely be the only POSITIVE gun info that many of those people will ever see, as they normally see guns discussed only in a negative context in the general media.

Lone Star

Pappy John
January 15, 2003, 10:13 AM
Never mind SHOOTING that 4 bore . I'd be more concerned with who could CARRY it all day.

Jack19
January 15, 2003, 12:37 PM
Kit for The Lost World:

1. Someone who's a slower runner than I am.
2. Something in a fully auto 50 cal. for cold blooded, neurologically slow, 5-12 ton meat eaters. Less than that and you're a snack.

Uncle Ethan
January 15, 2003, 12:46 PM
That was a fantastic link- thank you !! I am supposed to build a 45-70 double rifle out of a 12guage side by side that has a greener crossbolt using inserts put into the bores of the shotgun. I can't wait until my son gets home from School today to let him read the double rifle article. Thanks again. Ethan

Sean Smith
January 15, 2003, 02:11 PM
As far as handguns go, you'd probably want a commercial Colt Government Model, factory customized (which they did a good bit of back then) and nickel plated (yes, an authentic handgun finish well before the turn of the century) to avoid rust. Handguns would only be even considered for runty critters or people.

As for long guns, I dunno, other than "Bigger is Better." :evil:

I'd think BARs would DEFINITELY be in the mix, along with some autoloading shotguns.

Lone Star
January 15, 2003, 06:14 PM
Selection of a handgun wasn't done with dinos in mind, except for maybe some of the smaller raptors, so well dubbed in in later seasons that you'd swear the special effects creatures were real!

Main handgun uses are for snakes, people (there are a lot of hostiles there), and small game such as agouti, capybara, etc. up to whitetailed deer at close range. Crocodiles and caimans would be vulnerable to a powerful pistol, too, at attack distances. (Yes, there are American and Orinoco crocodiles, and they are dangerous!)

I like the nickel finish in theory, and John Roxton wears a pair of nickled Webley Mk. VI .455's in the last season's shows. But I don't like nickel guns' look, and the older ones I've seen mostly have freckled finishes. Don't how durable nickle finishes were back then. Sure, they were around: Bat Masterson ordered a nickle Colt SAA back in the 1880's...

What I WISH I could choose is the M1926 version of the S&W .44 with the enclosed extractor rod, as in the Triple Lock, but not as likely to fail to close completely if muddy, and with heat-treated cylinder, which the Triple Lock didn't have. Of course, I've never really gotten a revolver muddy...I sometimes wonder what those British troops in WWI were doing to cause their S&W's to gum up. Maybe just not too diligent in cleaning them. Most wouldn't have known much about guns until drafted.

Lone Star

sixgun_symphony
January 16, 2003, 04:01 AM
The nickel finish for handguns makes alot of sense.

On DA revolvers, I know that the Colt New Service would not have the problems that the S&W .44 has with mud getting into the enclosed ejector rod. The Colt New Service has an open ejector rod, thus avoiding the problem. I think its why the Brits bought so many of them in WWI & WWII.

A .455 Webley is a good gun too. Not as powerful as a .45 Colt or .44 Special, but its a good manstopping caliber.

I decided on the Colt SAA over the Colt New Service when I thought about blackpowder being necessary. Better to use a gun designed for blackpowder than to gum up the works on a modern smokeless powder gun. Since I will also have a carbine, I will chamber the Colt SAA in .44/40 to match for ease of logistics.

Perhaps the team should be equiped with 1873 or 1894 Winchester carbines with every fourth man issued a big 4 bore double rifle. Perhaps a SxS double Shotgun to one or two persons as well.

faustulus
January 16, 2003, 04:14 AM
extra pairs of shorts :)
and a BAR

Lone Star
January 16, 2003, 07:29 AM
I've owned two Colt New Service models, and liked them. But I doubt that the enclosed ejector rod on the M1926 and later S&W's would be a problem. Heck, it's on most of their Magnums, etc. and is widely favored by people who carry guns in deep wilderness. The problem, if it really was one, is that the tightly fitted THIRD LOCK on the Triple Lock was said to clog with mud or dust in the trenches of WWI. I really think that was 90% due to poor maintainance by users, but I think I recall that the Triple Lock does require the crane to be pressed home with a little extra effort to force the extra locking bolt home. So, I chose the Second Model, which has no barrel lug.

Britain did buy some Colt .38 Official Police revolvers in WWII, but bought far more S&W .38/200's, so they clearly had no problem with Second Model Hand Ejectors; just the Triple Lock. They bought no new .455's in WWII, although existing ones were used.

I don't think the expedition really ever expected to be gone so long that they'd run low on ammo. But when they got trapped on the Plateau, they'd eventually run out of cartridges. (Of course, Finn has her crossbow, and I guess she or George makes extra bolts for it.)

By the way, the Peter McCauley interview on the "Lost World" board is set for Jan. 25 in North America; check the Treehouse News, which is posted for this week. Mr. McCauley will actually be interviewed on Jan. 26 in New Zealand, so people on that side of the International Date Line will need to consider that.

Explorer

denfoote
January 16, 2003, 07:56 AM
I'd get the space aliens to give me one of their directed energy weapons!!! :evil:

JMLV
January 16, 2003, 08:45 AM
on the N frame smith 44 specials. 2nd model hand ejectors (the ones without the triple lock was what I was refering to. In nickle.
elmers 44 loads were being discussed among then 44 associates during the 20's and 30' among a bunch of 44 ca;liber enthousists. We call them Elmers loads becouse he published them first. Sorry I was'nt clear enough the first time. :D
heck I want s pair of 629's now just for fun!

Lone Star
January 16, 2003, 04:07 PM
denfoote-

You liked that episode, eh? I love the closing shot, with the spaceship rising above the jungle, just as the T-rex rears up and roars: a contrast of the primitive and the future worlds.

Didn't much care for the dress the aliens put Veronica in, though. I like her usual outfit more! Which reminds me: some on the official TLW board have suggested that Finn needs a new outfit. I thought that as Veronica's sort of adopted younger sister, and having only the one outfit in which she arrived from the future, "V" might help Finn make herself a jaguar skin (but slightly briefer) version of her own duds. Opinions? Naturally, the ladies who are the bulk of the membership at the official board thought that was prety exploitative, but look at how they gasp over John Roxton taking off his shirt when he does!

Lone Star

s&w 24
January 17, 2003, 02:31 PM
after carful thought I would select a brace of 5.5" blued colt SAA's frome the custom shop in 401 winchester self loading and a winchester 1910 carbine in 401 with a 700 nitro express dbl for back up fit with an extra 12 bore set of bbl's. I might consider a rifle in a newton cartrige (333/338) if they were around but I think they didn't come out untill the 30's.

Lone Star
January 18, 2003, 08:07 AM
S&W 24:

The .700 Nitro Express is a recent Holland & Holland creation. The biggest you could get then was the .600, and I doubt it would really be more practical than a .500, which is quite effective for its size, said to be definitly more potent than the .450-.475 class. The .577 and .600 are quite heavy, and kick like the Democrats did when they lost the election...and control of Congress!

I doubt if a Colt SAA can handle .401 Winchester ammo. Anyone here really KNOW? I don't even have a round to measure.

Oddly, I do have a book by a British officer stationed in India in the 1920's who used a .351 Winchester auto, even on panther and boar. Don't recall if he also shot tigers with it. Pretty marginal, but I guess he shot a lot at jungle ranges. He definitly used a .470 on some tigers.

Oh: Speaking of vintage S&W's, the S&W forum (www.smith-wessonforum.com) in the thread on revolvers from 1857-1945 has photos of a splendid and very rare .38/44 Heavy Duty special ordered in .45 Colt about 1938. (Roy Jinks mentioned that 12 of these were made.) The rosewood (?) grips on this gun are gorgeous. I can't post there because they won't accept accounts with Hotmail or AOL, but I lurk, and this gun is worth a look. Check it out. Pity the .38/44 hadn't arrived by 1920. I'd sure think about it. The .357 Magnum in its early years leaded bores too much, but the guns were lovely...
Lone Star

s&w 24
January 20, 2003, 03:21 PM
that shows how much I know about doubles(near nothing).I picked 401 over 351 on the basis of home made powder being used later on. The 351 win is very similar to 357 mag and I know that 357 mag SAA's were produced so I assumed that with a realy smart smith you could do it. (if a guy can take two 9mm lugers and make it into one 45 acp then making a "stretch" 401 would be simple).

P.S. thats a way nice 38/44

sixgun_symphony
January 21, 2003, 01:06 AM
If you want a carbine & revolver kit that use the same ammo, then you want .38WCF or .44WCF. Especially if you are loading with blackpowder.

A nice big British made double rifle in 4 bore or 8 bore is what I would tote for the dinosaurs.

Lone Star
January 21, 2003, 09:01 AM
I'll take the .500 over the four and eight bore BP rounds, thanks. I note that professional elephant hunters and explorers were glad to make that exchange once smokeless powder became established. More penetration, more velocity, smaller and lighter rifles...

Sure, the .38/40 and .44/40 would be the logical sixgun/rifle complemetary rounds. That's why I chose that .44/40 S&W Hand Ejector and the Winchester M92. Siemel found that combo very effective in Brazil about the time that the Challenger expedition took place in the TV show. By the way, S&W provided Siemel with examples of their .357 and .44 Magnums when those guns came out, and I think he killed jaguar with both, as well as with his spear and Winchester.

Lads, I've sad news. Looks as if, "The Lost World" series is being cancelled. You can read the details on the official board, but the gist of it is that some distributors, mainly outside the USA, felt that syndication rights weren't secure enough to invest the money needed for future shows. It seems that there may be a TV movie or two, to let the fans reach closure, after being left hanging at last season's final episode. Pity: it was a fine show for adventure/ sci-fi fans...the board will be up until at least September, so check there for news.

Fans of Rachel Blakely can catch her in a wholly unrelated role as a naval officer in "Assault On a Queen", a TV movie due in the US next month. I believe. It supposedly involves a terrorist attempt to seize a cruise ship. German and UK viewers say it's a good show, and that Rachel gets lots of screen time. (They've already seen it.)

Lone Star

Glamdring
May 30, 2003, 04:44 PM
A 5 shot .577 Bland Revolver (about the size of a short barreled Redhawk uses cut down 577 NE brass).

If two rifles:

7x57 Mauser with solids and softs

577 NE single

If one rifle:

404 Jeffrey

Dr.Rob
May 30, 2003, 08:26 PM
Lets see.. aside from the obvious Colt New Service .45, a good stout mauser actioned magazine rifle in.375, a .416 rigby for heavier game, and a BAR back in camp to repel boarders! Oh and lots of grenades. And Laura Croft. :)

I think we covered this to death at TFL.:scrutiny:

Glamdring
May 31, 2003, 10:54 AM
Dr.Rob I think we covered this to death at TFL.

Some threads can never die, even if you use garlic and wooden stakes!:D

Lions, tigers, and BEARS oh my! :eek:

Mike Irwin
May 31, 2003, 12:09 PM
1 Flobert rifle.

5 Flobert BB caps.

No need for overkill here.

T.Stahl
May 31, 2003, 01:36 PM
Enfield No.1 Mk.IIIs - for the ususal critters
Sharps in .45-120 or .50-140 - for the larger ones
Pump-action in 12ga - for the flying ones
1911s, Lugers or C96s - for the small ones

Uh, and, when did JMB invent the .50cal M2? ;)

winstonsmith
May 31, 2003, 01:58 PM
I believe it was 1918 T. Stahl.

T.Stahl
May 31, 2003, 03:04 PM
Too bad that, at that time, there were no decent cross-country vehicles on which you could mount an M2. And carrying one plus tripod and ammo is not a real option. :rolleyes:

natedog
May 31, 2003, 04:03 PM
panzershreck

telomerase
May 31, 2003, 11:20 PM
There were recoilless guns in 1918 (invented by an American officer named Davis). They worked by firing a counterweight of shot, like today's Armbrust (except that the Armbrust uses plastic chips for safety). Just the ticket for dino (and the shot charge will take out any caveman mobs in the other direction). There were also rocket guns, invented by the same Goddard who was later ridiculed for claiming that liquid-fueled three-satge rockets could go to the Moon.

As far as "regulations" against full-auto weapons in 1920 (??)... the Lost world is in the plateaus of Guyana. It's still completely wild there. And remember, full-auto wasn't illegal in the US until the Franklin Roosevelt years. Private citizens had machine guns for decades. Try to get a grip on historical reality, guys; Americans weren't always pathetic slaves of the State. (I guess they weren't always pathetic TV-watching dorks, either.... but I've baled hay and I like watching "The Lost World" better.) -Telomerase

Mute
June 2, 2003, 02:49 PM
Just give me that blonde in the loin cloth. Well, that and maybe a nice .416 Rigby.

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