[Newton]

I mean you name it, 38 Super is now downloaded to the old .38ACP type specs, our 9mm, .380ACP, and .32ACP ammunition is incredibly weak when compared to European stock such as S&B, Dynamit, or Fiocchi.

Don't even get me started with Santa Barbara .380ACP versus something like American Eagle .380.

Bottom line, I think our factory ammunition, outside of specialist manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore and Double Tap is now downloaded to the point that shooters have to step up in caliber to get the desired performance (or load their own).

Is it just me, or is it the lawyers who have achieved this "failsafe" ammo situation?

[jdc1244]

Not sure but that’s why I use mostly S&B or my reloads.

[Hoppy590]

probibly liability of people shooting it out of poor condition guns

everythign in life interconnects. if the companys loose a case because some nudge shot off a 38+P in his beat old .38 and hurt himself companies will try to protect themselves

[Old Fuff]

Is it just me, or is it the lawyers who have achieved this "failsafe" ammo situation?

In Europe handguns are proof fired by the government, and if a damaged pistol got that way through shooting heavy loads the gun owner isn't going to get to first base with a lawsuit if the pistol in question has the right proofmarks.

In this country the gunmakers sometimes proof fire their products, and sometimes not. If a lemon blows up some lawyer will likely try to sue the ammunition maker into the ground.

Ya' darn right they load on the light side... :banghead:

[TAB]

The lawyers are not the only ones to blame, the bean counters are just as guilty.

[Brass Rain]

New, from the makers of Speer Gold Dot, Gold Dot Lite! Same price but with half the power! Buy it today!

[BigBlock]

I guess that just makes a good niche for companies like buffalo bore. I am rather annoyed that the hottest .44 Mag I can find locally is 240 grain/1100FPS. That's hardly more than a .44 special. :rolleyes:

[Pat-inCO]

Bottom line, I think our factory ammunition, outside of specialist manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore and Double Tap is now downloaded to the point that shooters have to step up in caliber to get the desired performance (or load their own).

Is it just me, or is it the lawyers who have achieved this "failsafe" ammo situation?
As stated above - old - guns in circulation. Would you trust a 100 year old gun with +P loads? I wouldn't.

If you want something in full power, try a 10mm. The Hornadys are real ground pounders.

[chris in va]

Unscrupulous lawyers.

[Catherine]

I am NO expert but here goes. I think that some of it is due to people's stupidity in putting strong/newer ammunition in a weaker or older firearm where it was not meant to be used in. I think it is LIABILITY in this society where people are 'suit happy'. I think it is the bean counters and insurance companies. I think it is due to many, many reasons.

I was told that 38Special PLUS P should only be shot in a firearm that said: 38Special Plus P or 357Magnum.

I was told that the older/weaker model 38Special handguns were not strong enough to take the PLUS P ammunition. That goes for some of the OLDER model hand guns in other calibers too.

I trusted what I read, the gun company's ammo suggestions, what the older men in the 'shooting industry' told me, what my well known, local, family owned gun store man told me, etc.

There are some pretty strong loads out there from factory ones to 'hand loads' if one is so inclined. My husband knows about 'loading' and is careful on his loads for his firearms and mine. I don't want big boomers or someone who loads something that is not loaded right or loaded properly for that specific firearm NO matter what some folks like or think. I have seen bigger loads for guns that could safely hold those 'loads' too!

I want a load to be safe for the specific firearm and for myself so my gun does NOT blow up on me.

I saw a blown up gun once in real life not just pictures at my old club. It was not a pretty sight. The man was not hurt badly, blinded or killed. It was after the fact too... after a club meeting.

Catherine

[RyanM]

I've complained about it before, but I've noticed that most autopistols are undersprung to match the ammo. Especially .40 S&Ws. Seriously, why do companies insist on using the same recoil springs for their 9mm and .40 cal pistols?

The more I mess with my Glock, the more I become positive that the legendary ".40 kaboom" is because the 9mms and .40s use the same spring weight. I'm going to take some fired primer photos and post them in a few minutes.

There they are. Left 4 are from a Kahr MK40 with the factory recoil spring. Holy crap, am I glad i got a 24.5 pound recoil spring for that. Never actually bothered to look at the primers before. Middle 4, Glock 23 with TIG welded barrel and the factory recoil spring, on a tungsten guide rod. Right 4, Glock 23 with TIG welded barrel and a 22 pound ISMI recoil spring, on a tungsten guide rod.

Actually, when you take all the market factors into account, steadily weakening ammo and recoil springs makes sense.

Joe Schmoe reads about the latest uber tacticool 12mm magnum, and decides he's gotta have it. "Very reliable and easy to operate," the gun rag review said, "and very controllable recoil (http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-SRHAlaskan454/MVC-021F.jpg)." So Mr. Schmoe buys the gun, and he can barely rack the slide! Takes it to the range, and the recoil dislocates both shoulders! And the gun stovepipes every other round!

End result after many letters of complaint: the ammo company's going to download the cartridge and the gun company is going to weaken the recoil spring, to resolve both difficulty racking the slide, and limp-wrist malfunctions.

[Beagle-zebub]

Well, for at tleast some cartridges, there was the chance that the same load could be loaded into something that couldn't handle it. Supposedly 9mm Luger was keyed back a little bit because of surplus pistols having weak recoil springs; there is also the case of .38 Super now being .38 Super +P, so as to keep people in loading it into old .38 ACP pistols. .357 magnum is probably not what it used to be in part because of what it did or allegedly did to J- and K-frames. I have to think that .44 magnum calmed down after the umpteen-thousandth gotta-have-it type found it was much more than he could handle.

Of course, I'm sure the lawyers and bean-counters did their share, too. ;)

[unspellable]

European ammo is not aways up to par either. I shoot 30 Luger and the Fiocchi stuff runs about 200 fps below par and will not reliably cycle the action. Several other Fiocchi hand gun loads are reputed to be weak also.

[Old Fuff]

Just how do you define, “older gun?”

The Old Fuff finds this to be an interesting question, because during his youth he bought as brand new, some of the handguns that are now referred to as being older. Obviously some things other then firearms get older…

Even the hottest of today’s Plus-P loads is not likely to blow up a post-World War Two quality handgun, but they can and will shorten they’re life expectancy, and this is particularly so with earlier aluminum framed models.

Many pre-World War Two revolvers didn’t have heat-treated cylinders before the First World War, or shortly thereafter, and some never did. Most pocket automatics of the early and middle 20th century didn’t have heat-treated slides, barrels or frames.

Then there are 19th century revolvers that were made in the black-powder era, but will still chamber and fire current day ammunition.

In 1901 the U.S. Army purchased 1000 Model 1899 .38 revolvers from Smith & Wesson. I have the 142nd one that was made. This revolver is now 107 years old, but I could fire Plus-P or Plus-P-Plus cartridges in it. Obviously I won’t. But it is because someone out there might, that keeps the ammunition companies cautious. In the Old Fuff’s book a Plus-P .38 Special is called a .357 Magnum. :scrutiny:

[loneviking]

In the Old Fuff’s book a Plus-P .38 Special is called a .357 Magnum.

If you say so! It sure ain't what I call 357, and the '38 special' has been downloaded to absolutely anemic levels. For years, all I've shot has been my dads '38 special' handloads with 5 grs of (I think) Unique,with 156 gr. semi-jacketed hollowpoints or wadcutters, out of a Colt 357 with a 6" barrel.

I'm qualifying Sat. for my CCW permit, and they won't let anyone use reloads. So, I wandered down to Wally World and picked up a box of Remington 38 spcl., and then to the range. Load up, pull trigger--bang, but almost no recoil. WTH? Two more rounds, same thing. I checked the box, and yep, it's 38 spcl. all right but the recoil is about like shooting a 25 auto! I'm used to rounds with some ooomph behind 'em! Needless to say, I'm going to keep on reloading for any future needs and leave the wimpy stuff to someone else...

[SaxonPig]

I have been debating and arguing about this for years.

Some people call me crazy or a liar when I say that factory ammo (at least in many calibers I have observed) has been reduced in velocity. But I know that it has. I have tested old and new lots of ammo and the chronograph doesn't lie. I have also compared old specification sheets with current ammo and it's obvious that velocities have been lowered.

I'm sure this was done on advice of counsel for liability reasons.

As for the 38 Special +P, my reaction to this load is a big raspberry. A 125 at 925 hardly qualifies as a high performance 38 let alone a 357 Magnum. I consider factory +P to be a good plinking load. Way too underpowered for me to carry for SD use.

[Old Fuff]

If you say so! It sure ain't what I call 357, (Referring to Plus-P .38 Special).

You misconstrued what I met. When I want something more then ordinary .38 Special I often move up to .357 Magnum, and skip the .38 Special loadings that are in between. But when I do that I pick a revolver that’s appropriate for the cartridge. On the other hand if I do go with a Plus-P .38 load it will be in a .357 Magnum revolver. Doing so insures there will be no negative effects on the gun.

[loneviking]

You misconstrued what I met. When I want something more then ordinary .38 Special I often move up to .357 Magnum, and skip the .38 Special loadings that are in between. But when I do that I pick a revolver that’s appropriate for the cartridge. On the other hand if I do go with a Plus-P .38 load it will be in a .357 Magnum revolver. Doing so insures there will be no negative effects on the gun.

Yep, I'll agree with that! I had a Colt Diamondback 38, 4" barrel that didn't hold up well to those hot loaded 38's. I'll stick with a .357 for firing 38 +p's---I'm just surprised at how little recoil there is out of the standard 38 special.

[Old Fuff]

To continue: I also favor the .44 Special, mostly in a Taurus model 455 snubby. Much of what the .357 Magnum has is lost in a short barrel. Not so with the .44 which is expanded before it leaves the bore. A 5-shot/mid frame/3" barreled .44 Special would find much favor with me.

[unspellable]

Beware of factory specs for ammo. They are notorious for inflated numbers.

One example: Winchester 30 Luger. Factory claims 1220 fps from a 4.5 inch barrel. Ain't no way you're gonna close to that even with a six inch barrel.

I did some cyilinder gap tests with some 44 Mag factory loads. 240 gr at 1100 fps from a six inch barrel isn't exactly a full house 44 Mag load.

[Old Fuff]

Well for those that distrust the performance of factory ammunition there is a solution: Load your own. Handloading isn't difficult, and what you assemble is what you'll get.

Of course you can't sue the ammunition maker though... :scrutiny: :D

[Ske1etor]

Of course you can't sue the ammunition maker though...

Sure you can, but it would look silly running back and forth across the courtroom...

[Old Fuff]

Well under those circumstances you couldn't lose... :) :) :)

But you couldn't win either... :( :( :(

You would though, get to see things from the ammunition manufacturer's point of view. :banghead:

[FranklyTodd]

I'm sure this was done on advice of counsel for liability reasons.

I don't know how you are "sure" of that - I rather think it's driven by the market, not lawyers. I don't see a great reduction in liability because you tone down your powder, as long as it was within specs to start with. As technology has allowed manufacturers to make (and people have demanded) lighter guns (polymer, scandium alloy, etc.), I think ammo has shifted in response.

It's nice to see a Tim Taylor-esque give me more power and more recoil thread! (insert the man grunting he does on Home Improvement - I don't know how to spell it...).

I've never had anyone shoot my 13oz M&P340 with even factory .38s and then complain that it shoots too softly, let alone after firing .357s through it! :evil: Usually it's people on THR telling me it's too light, and if a gun kicks that hard it's worthless, etc. Phooey on them! Yes it stings w/.357s, but I can get off second shots just fine. I like the power-to-carryability! :neener:

I like variety - hence 9mm for most of my autos, and .357 for my revolvers. Soft shooting std. 9mm (for practice), +P for me for carry, and +P+ available for those that want even more. Same thing with .38 (for practice), +P for many to carry, .357 "short barrel" for me, and full-house .357s for those that want even more.

I prefer the variety be available from the factory. I may reload someday, but not anytime soon. As long as mfg. don't inflate their numbers, I don't see that much of a problem... There seems to be both hot and cold ammo available at most calibers...

Best to all, stay safe!

Todd

[XDKingslayer]

Unscrupulous lawyers.

Negative.

It's unscrupulous judges that let these lawsuits happen in the first place. The buck stops at the fat guy in the black robe...

[Phil DeGraves]

It's only weak when you are BEHIND the muzzle...

[unspellable]

SAAMI specs can get goofy too. 9 mm Luger SAAMI max pressure is 32,000 while for the 30 Luger the max is 28,000 The thicker barrel walls make the 30 caliber barrel weaker? (It should be noted that the original DWM factory load for the 30 caliber Luger carbine ran 40,000, so it's not a weak action.)

[ZeSpectre]

Is it just me, or is it the lawyers who have achieved this "failsafe" ammo situation?

Well I can remember at least two recent threads I've read where someone asked the question "Can I bore out my .38 Special to take .357 Magnum?"

I think that pretty much answered the question.

[Defensory]

Posted by RyanM:
The more I mess with my Glock, the more I become positive that the legendary ".40 kaboom" is because the 9mms and .40s use the same spring weight. I'm going to take some fired primer photos and post them in a few minutes....Actually, when you take all the market factors into account, steadily weakening ammo and recoil springs makes sense.

Just about all Glock kaBOOMS occur with significantly overpressure rounds, almost always homemade handloads/reloads and commercially remanufactured ammo. Glocks rarely kaBOOM when using factory ammo.

"4. Why do kB!s occur in these Glock models?

Reports compiled by Speir from various independent laboratories are inconclusive as to one single cause for the catastrophic failures.

There do, however, appear to be several contributing factors which collectively may induce catastrophic case failures:

* Firing out of battery. Most Glocks will do this to some degree, especially those improperly maintained.

* Significantly overpressure rounds. These occur mostly in homemade reloads or in commercially remanufactured ammunition, but have occurred in factory ammunition as well.

Unsupported chamber

* Lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp of all large caliber (.40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) Glock pistols."

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

[bakert]

It's only weak when you are BEHIND the muzzle...
Phil DeGraves has a point. Today's weak ammo is killing people and stopping situations every day:)

[Sicari]

S&B has always tested slow for me, althought it's been a while.
Nice ammo though.

[Medusa]

Talking about 9x19mm ammo, the Fiocchi, Geco and Dynamit have been weak for my CZ75B - they doesn't seem to slam the slide to the back, thus the slide won't return to battery, so I have to push the last 2 mm-s with thumb. It doesn't happen with every round, but several times per 50 rnd box.

When using S&B FMJ this issue has never come up, maybe it has something to to with the fact that both the weapon and ammo is Czech?.

Anyway, other ammo I use is Swedish M/39B (6.75 g bullet, thrown out of the barrel at max 420 m/s).

It has a extra ordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39
Tests have shown up to 65 layers of kevlar (so it's supposed to punch through most pistol vests), I've personally shot this round through 5 mm thick steel wall of a train cabin, so no worries for this round being too weak. But I should keep a small supply of CZ spares in the drawer.

[ClarkEMyers]

Run some Winchester 9x23 over the sky screens. Rumor has it that handloads with say 88/90 grain bullets will blast the throat of a 9x23 much as the .357 Maximum did for revolvers so balance is an important element in a load.

Rumor also has it the CorBon/Barnes bullet 9x23 is deliberately loaded to a lower velocity - matches the .38 Auto +P - because the performance on gelatine is the standard and more penetration would hurt agency acceptance.

Just possibly better balanced ammunition is the result of bullets that expand reliably at lower speeds.

Then too simple changes in ammunition have unexpected consequences. Paul Weston wrote up a personal Python used as a range gun for public safety training with a very high round count and negligible wear - but it wasn't with the 125 grain loads that led to the L frame.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Imagine, if you will the days of .38-44 rounds. Horrors! A hot-loaded cartridge the exact same size and shape as the .38 Special! Nothing between your standard Mk 1 Mod 0 idiot and a potentially blown up gun except for a different headstamp and a little grey matter between the ears.

I will say that not all rounds have gotten weaker. I'm shooting 9mm +P+ rounds at velocities that would have been unheard of 30 years ago, except for Super Vel loadings. The lowly .38 Special, on the other hand, has done nothing but get lowlier and lowlier. It seems like every few years, the pressure ceiling for .38 loads drops another 500-1000 CUP.

[Peter M. Eick]

What is interesting to me is that a 158 grn 38/44 round Chrono-ed by Phillip Sharpe in 1937 did 1130 with 6.6 grns of Unique, presumably out of a 6.5 Outdoorsman.

That is pretty close to or exceeds what some factory "357 magnum" rounds do out of my 6" python in 2008.


Now how did the 357 Magnum get "neutered" over those 71 years??? I think the correct answer has been stated several times above.

[another okie]

I notice you're discussing handgun loads. If you look at reloading manuals you will see that most rifle loads are about the same as they were thirty years ago.

As far as handgun loads, I doubt it's lawyers. It's engineers. They have come up with better ways to measure pressure and they made some scary discoveries, especially in calibers such as .44 special.

[zxcvbob]

Maybe bullets have gotten so much better that they don't require as much energy? Couple that with the popularity of lightweight guns with aluminum frames, and perhaps there's less market for zombie-stomper factory ammo. (there are boutique ammo makers that still provide it if you're willing to cough up the $$)