[icebones]

ive done it, and im shure almost eveybody else has:

picked up a pistol-rail laser sight at a gunshow, or out of a magazine for about 20 or 30 bucks, and the thing comes apart, breaks, dosent hold zero, or is too dim for daylight.:cuss:

does anyone have a good quality laser that will stand up to .45acp recoil?
any brands or models you recomend?

also, this laser has to be pistol rail type, no internal lasermax, no lasergrips.

many thanks.

[EHL]

Lasermax makes a great green laser that is mounted on a rail. I'd get one since the green is superior to the red laser, except that I hate rail mounted lasers since you can never holster them without removing the laser.:cuss:

[Mac Attack]

Crimson Trace.

The lasermax version does not allow for you to set the point of aim, while the CT does. I have a CT for my Glock and it just fits over the grip and activates when I grab it. I can still use my regular holsters as well.

[Robert Hairless]

I've used a Streamlight M-6 railmounted laser/light on .45 ACP and other handguns for several years. It has been discontinued and replaced by the TLR-2, which I think should be even better and more durable.

It costs about $299. If I could find a railmounted laser for $30 that works I'd buy a few of them instead. I can't.

[icebones]

are you talking about the lasermax "lasergrip copycat"

or the rail mounted lasers.

also, Fobus makes holsters made for lights/laser equipped handguns.

or you could order some kyndex and make your own holsters.

i seen the green laser EHL was talking about, but it was about $200 i think, i have no problem paying that much for a good product, but if i shell out 200 buck of my hard earned cash, for ANYTHING it has better work.

[icebones]

correction... lasermax rail mount GREEN laser MSRP is $399.99:cuss:
the "not as cool" red laser is abut $189 oh well, it can be set for pulse mode, like the internal lasers they sell.

i paid $500 for my Glock 30...

[wally]

At the power levels allowed for these things none will be easy to see in daylight. But you are buying them for bad light I assume.

I have to wait for a very grey day to practice with my CTC lasergrips, but then this is really only to verify zero periodically as dry fire practice is where the lasers really help, the $20 clip ons work great for this so they are worth having for this purpose.

For CCW, IMHO the laser grips or laser guide rods are the only viable option -- but the lack of adjustment in the laser guide rods makes POA/POI too much of a crap shoot for the price.

For a night stand gun or open carry, the rail mounts are fine, but Every pistol I have with a rail I'd like better without it!

--wally.

[M2 Carbine]

picked up a pistol-rail laser sight at a gunshow, or out of a magazine for about 20 or 30 bucks, and the thing comes apart, breaks, dosent hold zero, or is too dim for daylight.

Yes, I have a box of those cheap lasers. Total waste of money.
Lasers are for low light (inside) and darkness. I have a very bright (expensive) green laser that can be seen in daylight but I still prefer iron sights in sunlight.

also, this laser has to be pistol rail type, no internal lasermax, no lasergrips.

I like the Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light so well I bought 5 of them. I have them on everything from a Ruger 22/45 to two 12ga shotguns.
Talk about tough.:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/IthacawithTLR2andBSA.jpg


You said no laser grips but the Crimson Trace will stand up to the 45 and then some.
I have the CT on two Kimbers and it's a great combination.

For instance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CT7to40yards.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KimberCovertlaser.jpg

[The_woodsman]

I have an Insight Technologies X2L that is superb. I haven't mounted it on anything but a .22 at this juncture, but since I have a new TLR-1 for the .22 now, the X2L is going on my Kimber - I do not expect it to fail though.

The problem with the X2L however is that you cannot run the laser only - the light comes on with or without the laser...So you will waste batteries if you use the combo in the daytime.

The laser on this unit is only visible at about 25Y during the daytime.

[rcmodel]

20 - 25 yards is it for any legal red laser in broad daylight.

And it gets worse in trees & underbrush.

They are just very hard so see in sunlight regardless of the brand or price.

rcmodel

[SCGirl]

I have crimson trace laser grips on my 1911...love them!

[SiG357]

I have a TLR-2 on both my Shotgun and Pistol. No problems so far.

TLR-2 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=79094&d=1212028770)

[Zoogster]

I have never understood the expense of firearm lasers. The exact same laser components for a use other than a firearm can be a fraction of the cost. Put in a case that mounts to a firearm and it is suddenly worth several times as much?

Most pointer lasers have 2 main criteria that you can judge thier quality on.
Power level, and what wavelength on the spectrum they are.

The cheap red lasers are of a higher wavelength closer to the infared spectrum usualy around 670-680nm. The quality red ones are closer to the orange spectrum, like 615-635nm. Some are in between.

Many cheap lasers will put a range rather than state the exact wavelength, for example 630-680nm.
A comparison of a cheap red diode and one in the nicer wavelength at the exact same power level will have the one closer to orange spectrum appear several times brighter and highly visible during daylight hours as a red dot. The cheap one would be hardly visible more than a few feet in the sunlight even at the same power levels.

Since the power levels on lasers designed for pointing applications are legaly limited by the FDA, the easiest way to get a much brighter one is in a better wavelength. It obviously is better on battery life than one with just more power too.


As I mentioned many of the cheaper quality ones give a range as their stated wavelength that overlaps both good quality and cheap, rather than state thier specific wavelength. That is a legal way to sell crap. Obviously it would be false advertising to state a specific good quality wavelength and then sell a different cheaper wavelength.

Then of course there is the green lasers. The human eye is most sensitive to green light because it is right in the middle of the visible light spectrum. So a green laser will appear brighter for a given power level than others. However they can be several times more expensive than one of the quality red diodes, without being significantly better.

Another thing is how the laser operates. Many pulse at a rate the eye does not see because it is an easier design (long detailed explanation) and improves battery life. However since the laser is technicaly only on for a fraction of the time you see it with pulsing (even though it appears constant to the eye), it is actualy not as bright as a laser that is a continous beam rather than a pulse. This is totaly different than a visible "pulse" feature on some. That is a deliberate feature, what I am talking about is how the laser creates light in normal operation.

Since most people do not know the difference in red lasers, most red lasers sold are in the cheaper wavelengths. Some are in an intermediate wavelength. The market for the quality lasers in in the 615-635nm range is smaller now with green lasers, and products designed for people with more money tend to be the green and blue lasers now.
The red lasers sold to the market looking for a cheap product are in the cheap 670-680nm range. So as you see the best red laser range is the least common laser wavelength on the market because most of the market is at one extreme or the other.


Then the optics determine how well it stays a tiny dot and for what distance. A nice laser spectrum with a crappy lens will still spread out to a much larger dot at a distance and be less visible and less precise as a result.
This relates to beam divergence. For pointing applications you want very little beam divergence.

Someone selling a high quality laser product will usualy list the details of the laser used. Someone marketing a product using a lower quality laser obviously has little reason to be specific on what components are inside.
If the product is not very specific on what laser and the exact wavelength and power level, then you must wonder why.
Most products use low quality lasers, but the higher quality red ones really don't cost much more, so if consumers knew the difference manufacturers would have incentive to use the nicer ones. Unfortunately the target market of most red laser products does not know the difference, so the laser with the highest profit margin is used.

[Thumper_6119]

I really like the Crimson Trace units. Nice review, M2!

[RustyShackelford]

The Lasermax and Crimsontrace lasergrip models lead the lasersight industry in the US market. They are not 100% but are very well made. Avoid the cheap gun show crap. Off brands and low cost add ons never work well. :rolleyes:

It would be nice if CT had a well designed green light laser system. I know CT markets a IR model for some "limited" users, :cool:, but does not have a super bright green lasergrip for sale in the USA yet. The small Lasermax unit is cool but fits on pistol rails.

www.lasersights.com www.crimsontrace.com

RS

[XDKingslayer]

I always seem to be the lucky one with gun show crap. I bought a cheapy gun show laser to test for a buddy that has macular degeneration and is going blind.

I slapped it on my XD-45GAP just to see if he could see it and how well he could shoot with it and the darn thing holds zero just fine.

[RustyShackelford]

For the record, I did buy a $5.00 black nylon 4" barrel size ambi revolver holster that I took out of a barrel in 1988. I still use it, :D.

But really watch out for rip-offs! ;)

[EHL]

Getting a laser is great. I have both kinds of the two best brands. I have a lasermax guide rod for my 1911 government, and a crimson trace grip laser for my Kimber Ultra Eclipse. They both have their pros and cons, but they are both very hard to see in daylight for more than 7 or 10 feet away.:scrutiny: I noticed that in both websites they strongly recommend getting a good set of iron sights since there will inevitably be many times that the laser is useless. However, both lasers are extremely visible at night or low light conditions. THey would be invaluable in a gun fight in low light. Since most confrontations statistically are in low light conditions, i.e. night time, you are getting you'r money's worth investing in these fine products.
+1 on not buying cheapo, crappo lasers at gun shows or the cheapo novelty magazines :barf:($30 specials). THey're junk. Invest in either lasermax or Crimson Trace, both are quality products.
By the way, I love the TruGlo Tritium/Fiber optic iron sights on my 1911's.:) Both of them are fitted with these great sights.:D

[10-Ring]

Crimson Trace makes real quality stuff for j-frames to 1911s ;)

[velocette]

I have a Crimson Trace laser sight on a Kimber compact .45 and on a S&W 640. Both are over a year old both work just fine. In full daylight beyond about 15 feet they are not usefully visible. In less than full daylight they are just what I wanted. The Kimber .45 has Tritium nite sights along with the laser, just to cover all bases. I do practice with all three available options.
I would certainly buy the CT laser sights again.

Roger

[coda323]

EHL, how's that guiderod laser?

[Zoogster]

However, both lasers are extremely visible at night or low light conditions. THey would be invaluable in a gun fight in low light. Since most confrontations statistically are in low light conditions

Do keep in mind a laser works both ways, arguably better for the person without the laser. Shooting at a laser beam pointed in your general direction is one of the easiest shots you will ever take. Your target is a glowing dot that is brighter than the one they are trying to make appear on you. even before they get the laser on you, the source of the laser will be a bright glowing dot you can instinctively see immediately.

Have someone point a laser in your general direction and you will see that even your peripheral vision picks up up immediately from hundreds of yards away. I honestly could not think of an easier target to see in low light than the source of a laser.

That is not to see it is not valuable in some situations. A mutual gunfight where both people are armed with firearms though is not one of them imho.

[EHL]

EHL, how's that guiderod laser?
I honestly favor it over the Crimson Trace. (barely) It's a great laser! In fact, you can find the laser easier on a similiar colored background easier than you can with the Crimson Trace. The reason is because of the pulsating laser that the Lasermax has while the Crimson Trace has a solid dot. According to Lasermax, they opted for this pulsating dot since they found, in their studies, that people's eyes caught the pulsating dot faster than a solid one. I have to concur with their findings when I compare the lasers side by side, the pulsating dot is easier to focus on when they are both against backgrounds that would normally hide or camoflage the color.(browns, reds, etc..) THe only downside to the Laser Max is that the batteries are a pain in the rear to buy (order them online)and are somewhat pricey. :cuss:($10 for one pack) Where as the Crimson Trace, you can just go down to Wal mart and buy some replacements for under $5.:) That being said, I still prefer the laser max since I can: 1. keep my choice of grips on it, 2. Don't have any trouble with my ambi safety (had to file my Kimber's down), 3. Don't have to worry about holsters being able to accept my gun with the laser on. Although many outfits make their holsters to accept guns with CT grips on, there are just as many if not more that don't make their holsters with these grips in mind.
I wish lasermax would make a guide rod laser for my 3" kimber, cuz I'd switch out my CT's for another Lasermax.
Do keep in mind a laser works both ways, arguably better for the person without the laser.A mutual gunfight where both people are armed with firearms though is not one of them imho.
I think there are more pros than cons for having a [good] laser on your firearm. You mention that it's an easy target for somebody who might be gunning for you. Well, that would be true if you were at some distance from each other. However, since most confrontations occur within 15 feet, the issue of "easier target" is really moot. At 15 feet any person who does not require a seeing eye dog will be able to see you with or without a laser. The advantage, it would seem would go to the person is obviously going to be faster in both presenting and, if needed, accurately uses their weapon. I add the second clause "if needed" since the majority of self defense uses for firearms generally ends without the need to even discharge the weapon. This is because most perps are not looking for a "fair fight", they want the easiest target possible, and a person with a gun is not an easy victim. On top of that, lasers on a firearm tend to have a psychological effect of further intimidating BG's since they realize that if the dot is on them, the fight one trigger pull away from ending. Several Law Enforcement agencies are actually spending the money to arm their police with lasers since they have also 1. improved their hit ratio, and 2. ended possible violent confrontations without needing to resort to deadly force.
THe issue of giving away your location is a good one, but it can be mitigated by simply either, taking pressure off the switch to turn off the laser, or hitting the switch that will also turn off the laser if you are trying to be stealthy and not give away your location. There are obvious shortcomings to a laser, and you mentioned them, but I believe the benefits far outway any forlorn possibilities of making for an easier target.

[M2 Carbine]

Zoogster
Do keep in mind a laser works both ways, arguably better for the person without the laser. Shooting at a laser beam pointed in your general direction is one of the easiest shots you will ever take. Your target is a glowing dot that is brighter than the one they are trying to make appear on you. even before they get the laser on you, the source of the laser will be a bright glowing dot you can instinctively see immediately.


You are assuming that the person using the laser doesn't know what they are doing.
Someone that shines the laser around like a flashlight needs some training in the proper use of the laser. In other words all they know about using a gun mounted laser they learned from the movies.:D

In most cases the laser shouldn't be activated until the gun is being brought on target. Meaning if you are going to use the laser as an aiming point you have at most a second to identify, aim and fire. Of course this means that you have to be far above the average shooter in low light and dark shooting.

Even being slowed down by age I can fire in under two seconds within identifying the target. Even weak hand point shooting from the hip.
So a young fellow that knows how to properly use the laser will put a bullet in you a split second after you see the laser.

Crimson Trace laser on a 2 inch S&W J Frame, fired at night.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CTlefthand15shots.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/38timedlaser.jpg

[Titan6]

I guess I can jump on the CT band wagon as well. Just be sure to get one with button in the front and not the side. The one on the side is too hard to shoot well. All of mine out of the box shoot to point of aim 100% of the time at 50 meters. My daily work weapon has one and it gets banged around a lot and still functions fine.

The cheap stuff does not work well on any firearm with high recoil. Much of it was designed for Airsoft type guns and they have adapted them to firearms. On a low recoil weapon (does not include any pistol over .22 I know of) they work well enough.

I have a variety of lasers and find green light lasers to be vastly superior to red light lasers. A good quality one can actually illuminate a small room quite well and even dazzle those in it.

So far as the constant word I hear about lasers working against you by giving you away and making you an easy target.... Let us examine this a little.

- When are you going to shoot first from a concealed position? I say probably not likely. The military does but the military has IR lasers which are many times better than visible light lasers for a variety of reasons. With visible light lasers you certainly can leave it off until it is time to use it, by merely not squeezing the grip.
- If you are in a gun fight will someone really have the composure to think "1-green light, 2-obviously a laser, 3- shoot there" and then stare down the laser beam to shoot you? Keep in mind if they are shooting at you they already know where you are anyway. If you are shooting the muzzle flash will make the laser disappear. and if you did your part, they will have a hard time returning fire anyway.

[RustyShackelford]

I'd say the use of lasergrips or any green/red laser on a duty weapon is really meant for certain limited conditions. Holding subjects at gunpoint, IDing a target, aiming, etc. A bad guy/criminal could see or maybe able to know your location depending on several factors but I'd rather risk that small chance for the benefits of using a lasersight in a real CQB incident.
These events are very very fast and to think your laser will be seen is really not as important as a fast accurate shot, ;).

As many weapons/tactics instructors say;

"Speed's fine, but accuracy is final." :D

[ultradoc]

I have the Crimson Trace laser sights and they are expensive but I am happy with them.

[Disaster]

Have someone point a laser in your general direction and you will see that even your peripheral vision picks up up immediately from hundreds of yards away. I honestly could not think of an easier target to see in low light than the source of a laser.


Maybe that would make a difference with two snipers, aiming at each other from cover, but it has very little relevance in a typical handgun confrontation.

A handgun confrontation will be quick and close. Whoever can hit more accurately and quicker will have the advantage. A laser is a huge advantage in quick target acquisition...especially in low light.

Short of learning how to effectively point shoot...which some people will never do, and which requires lots and lots of practice, a laser is the best way to beat your opponent to the target. This is one of the reason you don't see them allowed in competitions. If they were allowed, you'd see everyone using them.

The other neat thing about lasers is they are a great teaching tool. They are very effective at showing muzzle movement when dry firing. They are effective at training you to point shoot. Point at target...press on laser...adjust to center...rinse and repeat. Soon you will find when you turn on that laser you are on the target....and it didn't take thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo to get there.

As far as what you get for the price, decent lasers are expensive. I have a $80 laser on one gun that is adequate, but the first one's switch failed and the second one's cover keeps walking off. The Crimson Trace has been perfect...but it should be, at the same cost as an inexpensive handgun!

[Cannonball888]

Lesson learned: Lasers that aren't junk cost more than 20-30 dollars.

[A/C Guy]

does anyone have a good quality laser that will stand up to .45acp recoil?
any brands or models you recomend?

also, this laser has to be pistol rail type, no internal lasermax, no lasergrips.
Streamlight has a lifetime warranty on their rail mounted lasers. You only get what you pay for.

For $30, you get junk that breaks. Quality costs $$$$

[Kayback]

I have a set of slightly older Crimson Trace grips for my 1911, and it's fired hundreds of rounds.

It is a fairly niche accessory, but I want it for those thimes it will work. Especially when you factor in the times and places most SD shootings will occur. I've set mine up so it is slightly above my front sight, so I can see my irons and my laser if I'm shooting properly.

10 meters rapid
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Kayback/IMGA0043.jpg

This was one weekends shootings. It's +/- 160 rounds fired with the CTC. There was another 120is fired with the Aimpoint, which was the Aimpoints only outing ever. The grip mounted rail should have been on the left hand side, it interferred with ejection.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Kayback/DSCN0693.jpg

I can't even tell you how many rounds my laser has fired and it is still going strong. It also holds it's zero perfectly when you remove the grips. Mine gets a new set of grips of every time I feel like it, but it gets carried with the CTC's.

KBK

[coda323]

I finally got my Wilson and I was surprised when they also packaged a set of crimson trace laser grips. What kind of grip can I expect from these things? I can get the sweatiest hands and I would rather not sacrifice any control.
thanks.

[R&J]

I like Crimson Trace for revolvers and 1911's, but not for Glocks. We currently own only Glock pistols--a G17, G19 & G21.

I've had excellent service from the LaserMax guide rod laser in my G21, as Judy has with the same type LaserMax in her G19. We're talking thousands of rounds on both guns. The laser is convenient, accurate, and durable.

I'm presently putting a new LMS-UNI-G (UNI-GREEN) through its paces. The green laser dot is visible in broad daylight, and appears many times brighter than red under all conditions. The beam is not traceable inside my home, day or night, but it is traceable outdoors, in the evening air, as it illuminates suspended particles.

The UNI-GREEN is a clever design, as it can be used on multiple weapons, and has an integral light rail of its own. Pretty slick! The whole rig, with batteries, weighs an ounce! Because of its ability to be mounted multiple weapons, the UNI-GREEN and UNI-MAX have fully sdjustable windage and elevation.

*****

Think about it. There's two ways to collimate a laser designator...

1) Sweet Spot: The laser is set to converge with the bullet at a distance predetermined by the shooter--the sweet spot. The laser will be offset (POA) more or less, inside or outside the sweet spot (POI). This is the only way to set up the laser/light combos, where the laser emitter is far from the bore axis.

2) Parallel Beam or Offset: If the laser sits close to the bore axis, it is set up to run parallel to the bullet's path, out to practical pistol ranges. The offset--say it's a half inch--is a known value, and is ignored or compensated for by the shooter. This is how the LaserMax guide rod lasers are set up, since the laser emitter is so close to the bore axis.

Both approaches work.

*****

LaserMax Makes Five Laser Models For Handguns:

I'm not employed by, nor do I represent LaserMax. But I have owned two of their guide rod lasers for better than two years, and am very pleased with them.

Since I'm a bit of a geek, I've kept abreast of what LaserMax has been up to. I'm presently breaking in a new UNI-GREEN, green-beam laser.

Currently, LaserMax offers five laser designators for handgunners to consider:

1) LaserMax Internal Guide Rod Laser: One for nearly every Glock pistol made, many 1911's, and the popular XD series, LaserMax replaces your gun's OEM guide rod, offering a completely inboard laser designator that has zero impact on gun ergonomics. It works perfectly with most holsters, and does not require an accessory rail. Mounted very close to the gun's bore axis, collimation is unnecessary.

2) Uni-Max Rail-Mounted Laser: Slips directly onto your Glock's accessory rail, and with an integral rail of its own, still allows the mounting of almost any weapon light. Uni-Max can be used on multiple weapons, including rifles and shotguns.

3) Uni-Green, Uni-Max Green Laser: Similar to the standard Uni-Max, but with an ultra bright green laser that can be used in broad daylight. For those wishing a day and night laser designator on the same platform,
Uni-Green is an excellent accompaniment to either of the above lasers,

4) Sabre: The latest laser designator from LaserMax, is a frame-mouted beaver tail-style, grip-activated laser for Glock pistols. Featuring a master on and off switch, Sabre holds zero with each battery change.

5) J-Max: For J-frame S&W wheel guns! The laser emitter, while clear of your index finger, is aligned closely to the gun's bore axis, and accepts most any holster.

I know that at least one or two of these models is offered in infrared, to LEOs and military...

You can surf the net for your best price, but availability changes daily. While they're not among the cheaper lasers out there, a new LaserMax UNI-MAX can be had for well under $200.00 delivered.

https://www.lasermax.com/cat_info.php?id=114

--Ray