Making money reloading????


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elkhuntingfool
June 10, 2008, 10:52 PM
I've run across a few guys who claim they can make money reloading. Obviously they are reloading in bulk because I couldn't imagine a box or two for a neighbor would produce much income.

Anyhow I can't believe it would be a viable business - wouldn't liability insurance be outrageous???

Anyone out here do this for living?? Just curious - not wanting to reload for $$ just find it interesting.

Thanks!

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buenhec
June 10, 2008, 11:03 PM
I know a few people who do it. I have had people ask me to but I really don't want that responsability. Accidents can and will happen.

scrat
June 10, 2008, 11:05 PM
you would need to obtain a federal firearms license. Then you would need a huge insurance policy. Not something you could get into for part time. that would be one of those things you get into all the way or nothing.

AMBASSADOR
June 10, 2008, 11:28 PM
Sounds as if they are illegally manufacturing ammunition,pay attention to these letters B.A.T.F.E.

AMBASSADOR
June 10, 2008, 11:30 PM
Sounds as if they are illegally manufacturing ammunition illegally ,pay attention to these letters B.A.T.F.E.

strat81
June 10, 2008, 11:33 PM
In addition to the ATF and an ammo FFL, you'll need to contend with local laws regarding zoning of businesses.

PowderApe
June 10, 2008, 11:47 PM
plenty of guys do it--- just go to any decent sized local gunshow and there will usually be a booth or two peddling ammo.

My buddy and I picked up some reloads and they were cheaper than store bought. Bulk boxes of 250 loose rounds. They shot "ok"--- that is to say- they went BANG and a slug went downrange... we had a dud and we pulled it apart to do a ballistic "autopsy" and to our surprise- found 3 distinctively different powders inside! Round flake- like Bullseye / Unique type; small flakes like 2400 and extruded rods like IMR rifle stuff!! We opened up another to check it out and it had 4 types!! as above plus little ball type granules kinda like H380.

We pulled the rest of mine apart (300 or so for me) and got rid of the powder. Reloaded the primed case with known good powder and plugged back in the 230 gr FMJ projectile (.45ACPs). Those plinkers shot fine... In the end, at least I got some cheap brass out of the deal

My buddy decided foolishly (but uneventfully) shoot off his remaining 3 boxes of 250 rounds without incident. there were obvious variances in recoil and report tho- and they weren't very accurate and it was tough to tell if it was him, the gun or the ammo but I suspect the ammo. So overall, it wasn't a "deal" but a waste of $$ just to blow em off

Saw the guy at another show and he told me the outfit was sold not long before and he bought it- including inventory- and the he was the new owner. the new guy blamed the old owner! Disavowed any liability and basically said "ToughSh*t"... If something were to happen, I'm sure he'd just fold up shop and bail...

Caveat Emptor!

Simply put: Don't buy other people's reloads.... or at least buy from someone reputable and pay the higher price which includes liability insurance (which is probably pretty high for them, too!)

"License? License??? We don neeed no stinkin' license"

evan price
June 11, 2008, 01:38 AM
If you wish to manufacture ammunition (other than for a Destructive Device) you need an 06 FFL for that. BATFE is really looking for guys who do that, too, and not to give them a pat on the back.

Let me put it this way- there are significant potential problems for an unlicensed manufacturer vis-a-vis the BATFE, not to mention the personal liability resulting from any accident or misuse of the product.

There are always those looking for a quick buck who don't care about liability- but would you seriously want to buy a product like ammo from aguy whose entire business ethic is to say, screw it, if I cock it up I'll just fold up and move away? Makes you real confident in his product!

I always say- I don't shoot other people's reloads.

OLD DOMENION
June 11, 2008, 02:29 AM
In order to sell your ammo. you have to have a Manufacturers License with the BATF. There is also, a MILLION DOLLAR LIABILITY requirement.

The easies way to make a little money is to show the people how to reload and then, rent/let them RELOAD THEIR OWN ammo.

DEDON45
June 11, 2008, 10:47 AM
I might reload a box for a close friend, no charge (I have a friend that also reloads, but he doesn't care to reload small pistol calibers... I'm getting him a carbide die set as a gift here before long!) ... but if anyone wants quantity, my policy is that I'll show them how to do it themselves on my equipment, and encourage them to get their own setup.

MMCSRET
June 11, 2008, 12:48 PM
I have a class 06 and have since 1997, I do load new and reloaded ammo for sale. For the most part it is a hobby that pays for itsself and buys me a gun once in a while. I built up a loyal clientel in my area and some have been with me since the first day I got my license. There is no requirement for insurance in my state for this. When I got my 06 in '97 I had 42 years experience loading ammo and had run production camdex style loading machinery so I had an idea about how to do it right. I load on a Lee Loadmaster and 3 single stage presses. I do not load a lot of any one caliber but I load a few boxes of 142 calibers. All rifle is loaded on the single stage presses and done one at a time. I enjoy it, but when NCIS comes on I go watch it. There is not a television or telephone in the loading room. My biggest and most loyal customers are 3 sheriffs in the surrounding counties. Be careful and it will work. Be very selective of you customers.

strat81
June 11, 2008, 02:07 PM
I load a few boxes of 142 calibers.
That's a lot of calibers. If I could name 50 cartridges, I'd be surprised.

rcmodel
June 11, 2008, 02:13 PM
A State "requirement" for liability insurance, or not.

If someone foolishly blows up a gun somehow and gets hurt, who do you think the guys lawyer is gonna come after first?

I wouldn't reload and try to sell it on a bet, without product liability insurance out the kazoo!

My wife would be very upset with me if we ended up homeless at our age!

rcmodel

strat81
June 11, 2008, 02:16 PM
Rcmodel makes a good point about liability. That also raises the issue of making sure you set up an s-corp or LLC to shield your personal assets.

If someone is disfigured or loses a hand or eye because of your ammo, I don't care WHO it is, they're gonna want money.

zxcvbob
June 11, 2008, 02:19 PM
I wouldn't reload and try to sell it on a bet, without product liability insurance out the kazoo! My wife would be very upset with me if we ended up homeless at our age!

You just incorporate the business, and make sure the corporation has little or no assets. You still get liability insurance, but that's so you can do the right thing for your customers if Something Goes Terribly Wrong, you won't really need it to protect yourself.

All the more reason not to try to go into reloading as a side business. Do it as a hobby for yourself, or go into it like a real business. ("Hybrid model" doesn't work very well) :)

rcmodel
June 11, 2008, 02:23 PM
they're gonna want money.Even if it wasn't caused by your ammo, they are still gonna want money!

Just ask any of the big firearms companies who have been bled almost dry with frivolous lawsuits through the years.

rcmodel

MMCSRET
June 11, 2008, 06:18 PM
On the insurance question, I stated that there was no requirement for it. I did not state that I did not have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I did not state How I was organized, I get the impression that some posters assume a lot of negatives.

strat81
June 11, 2008, 06:28 PM
I get the impression some posters think we're talking about them, when the comments were directed to the OP. ;) :)

gandog56
June 11, 2008, 08:11 PM
And I'll bet all them guys selling them at the gunshows have a license to do so. Non moving targets are easier to hit.

Galil5.56
June 11, 2008, 10:14 PM
Never did it for a living, but 25 years ago while I was in high school, I made a tidy bit of spending money around deer season selling 30/30 and 06 ammo.

Yeah, I guess looking back now it seems "risky", but somehow the world seemed different. For Gods sake we had deer rifles in the cars for after school hunting, not mass shootings, and you could even walk around the neighborhood with a rifle slung w/o people calling the cops.

Not that being careful with liability is a bad move, just that I'm frickin sick of billboard warning labels, integral gun locks, wimpy reloading data, and most of all a lack of personal responsibility, slimy lawyers, and juries in certain areas that let them spew their venom. Not that the "tough sh%t" answer will fly, but I like the sentiment.

evan price
June 12, 2008, 02:34 AM
In a better world, people would realize that stuff happens, that you should know not to stick your arm in a lawn mower with the engine running, without some lawyer sticker telling you not to.

Personal Responsibility!!!!

However, if someone is doing something with a gross disregard for safety and accepted practices of the industry, then they deserve to take responsibility for what they did if it hurts someone else.

borntwice
June 12, 2008, 02:45 AM
Fark the BATF nazis. They are owned by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, in my humble opinion (as is most of the rest of the U.S. government). Ohhh! I said the unthinkable! Oh, well! At least I have an opinion, and my heart pumps red American blood. These people would sell their grandmother to make a buck!

MMCSRET
June 12, 2008, 12:06 PM
When I asked about insurance the general consensus was that it would be impossible east of the Mississippi. However in the Northern Great Plains,ND,SD, MT, and WY and Idaho and Utah, NM and Arizona it could be done relatively easily due to the nature of the product and the very high(proportionately) population % that owns and shoots.

zxcvbob
June 12, 2008, 12:55 PM
The key to making this work is limiting liability. I tried to point this out earlier. Once you do that, insurance is just icing on the cake. They can sue your business (but not you personally) and potentially get a judgement to seize all the assets of the corporation -- but the corporation doesn't have any significant assets so they are SOL.

IMHO that is why you are morally obligated to have some liability insurance, but probably not as high a limit as you might be thinking -- perhaps $1000000? It shouldn't be too expensive.

SSN Vet
June 12, 2008, 02:32 PM
who do you think the guys lawyer is gonna come after first?

First or last....they will only go after the entity/person with deeeeep pockets.

Ever tried to retain a lawyer to sue somebody? It's not quite as easy as Judge Judy might make you think. The only way your going to get a lawyer to spend his time talking to you is if you....

(1) Plop down some significant cash (that you never expect to see again).

or..

(2) Have a reasonable case and an offending party with deep pockets.

When Mr. I. Chase Ambulances, Esq. sees that the "offending" party is Mr. Modest means, he's not going to waste his time taking the case on a percentage. Because.....50% of zero is still zero.

Setting up as an LLC or Corporation. is smart, but even if you don't, you can file for bankruptcy and keep pretty much everything you have.

My wife runs her own business and I set her up as an LLC taxable as an S-Corp. for tax purposes, and to create a means to buy fully deductable health insurance (I can legitimately claim to be her employee, as I'm a registered agent of the LLC and authorized signator on the business checking) as it only takes two people to qualify for group rates.

As far as all the "internet shock and awe" advice about liability insurance. Have you guys ever gone out and bought any. Years ago when I was inbetween jobs, I did landscaping and light excavation to put food on the table. Every customer required proof of liability insurance and I easilly picked up a million dollars in coverage for about $200.

I'll bet ya a DD coffee that both roofers and loggers pay higher rates than Joe Homebody reloading in his basement.

Insurance is all about the numbers and I suspect most gun accidents are easilly attributed to other casues than using reloaded ammo.

There's a certain "Hutspha" required to go into any business and my $.02 is that you either "do it" or you "don't", but don't "play around."

Deavis
June 12, 2008, 07:22 PM
Insurance is all about the numbers and I suspect most gun accidents are easilly attributed to other casues than using reloaded ammo.

Bingo, prove it was the ammo and not a defective firearm.

my heart pumps red American blood

As do many of the equally American hearts that respect the laws the ATF enforces even if they disagree witht hem.

bl4ckd0g
June 13, 2008, 02:41 AM
Landscaping has a far lower customer liability compared to ammunition reloading. At the very worst, you may run over a client's foot with the lawnmower deck, or drop a chainsaw.

I work in the oilfield and professional liability insurance can range from $1200 to $15,000 per year for the self-employed wellsite consultants. I'd imagine that there's a licensing and bonding issue that applies to most trades that will lead to lower insurance premiums.

I'm sure that someone who had a career as a police armorer or hunting guide would have lower premiums than someone starting fresh with 6 months experience.

freakshow10mm
June 13, 2008, 11:19 AM
I'm a licensed type 06 FFL. I am the owner of Freakshow Bullets and Pucker Factor Ammo. In addition to obtaining a FFL and any other state or local licensing or permits, you also need to register with the US State Department under the ITAR regulations. The fee for this is $1,750 per year. It is mandatory, even if you simply manufacture ammunition or components and do not import or export. The law is very clear that ALL ammunition manufacturers need to register. You need to register even if you aren't making ammunition for the military, as ammunition is defined as a "defensive article" even for civilian sporting use. There is no way around it (except R&D purposes and you have to write a letter requesting the exemption).

The penalty is up to $1 million fine and 10yrs in prison.

Liability insurance starts out at $1200 per year. Then you have to pay federal excise tax (11%) on the ammunition you manufacture, unless you make it for a government agency like local LE. Federal LE still has to pay the tax; only exceptions on the federal level are the Department of Defense and the US Coast Guard- everyone else has to pay.

Loading LE training ammunition is the bulk of my business. There is no excise tax and it's a steady paycheck as they train regularly. I supply a few agencies with training ammunition.

freakshow10mm
June 13, 2008, 11:27 AM
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/official_itar_and_amendments.htm

Here is the ITAR regulations. Specifically parts 120, 121, and 123 are specific to whom needs to register. Firearms and parts are Category I defense articles and ammunition/ordnance is Category III defense articles. If you manufacture ammunition for a defense article in Category I, you need to register with ITAR and pay the $1,750 yearly fee. The fee schedule is in 122.3; $1,750 for one year or a "discount of $3,500 for a two year registration.

It's not as simple as getting a $30 FFL anymore.

ar10
June 13, 2008, 11:36 AM
I read in a book somewhere "Only a fool would shoot another mans reloads".
I definitely agree with it.

SSN Vet
June 13, 2008, 11:48 AM
$1,750 per year

:cuss::cuss: Reckin' Freckin' :banghead::banghead:

I read in a book somewhere "Only a fool would shoot another mans reloads".

you trust Ohlin don't you....you ever verified their Q.C.? Talked to a shift supervisor about his "good shop practice"?

"I read in a book somewhere" that people who think "bigger is better" risk learning a hard lesson about corporate cost saving measures.

ohman11
June 13, 2008, 11:57 AM
This got me wondering if you have to be licensed to sell cast bullets. Anyone know?

freakshow10mm
June 13, 2008, 12:02 PM
Yes, you do. The ATF considers it to be ammunition and the State Department considers it to be ammunition components.

As above in my posts, you need a type 06 FFL and register with ITAR. It will run you $30 for the FFL and $1,750 for the ITAR registration. The ITAR registration is not optional, it is mandatory, even for a bullet caster.

SSN Vet
June 13, 2008, 12:31 PM
I just read through most of that ITAR cr@p and it is so braud that it could very conceivably apply to posting a knock of M193 load on the internet.

I'm curious if Lee Precision is paying reg. fees, as they make machinery for the manufacture of ammunition.

or if any of the little guys out there selling cast boolits (the Bullshop comes to mind) are caughing up $1,750/year.

IMHO, the U.S. State Department rots! It's been a bastion of communist and liberals since the early 20th centruy.

wuchak
June 13, 2008, 12:35 PM
I'm with DEDON45. I'll show anyone how to reload and help them pick some equipment to get started. I have helped three friends get going this way. I won't give my reloads to anyone and I would never consider selling them.

SSN Vet
June 13, 2008, 12:37 PM
and one more thing.....

it says manufacture and export....

it say's nothing about selling.

now every guy in the country packing .38 spcl target loads is subject to 10 years in the slammer????

langenc
June 13, 2008, 12:43 PM
Hope you have a nice house!

freakshow10mm
June 13, 2008, 01:36 PM
and one more thing.....

it says manufacture and export....

it say's nothing about selling.

now every guy in the country packing .38 spcl target loads is subject to 10 years in the slammer????
No. If you sell items that others make, you do not register. It also does not include those made for personal, non-commercial use. You as a handloader for your own use are not required to register. Me as a commercial handloader must register.

The industry is split in two about ITAR. Some say it doesn't apply to them (which it clearly does) and don't pay it. A lot of boutique ammo shops and such as well as SOT 2 manufacturers don't pay. Most of the larger companies like Remington, GemTech, Hornady, Dillon are registered with ITAR. I know some large companies that aren't complying with ITAR.

I just read through most of that ITAR cr@p and it is so braud that it could very conceivably apply to posting a knock of M193 load on the internet.

I'm curious if Lee Precision is paying reg. fees, as they make machinery for the manufacture of ammunition.

or if any of the little guys out there selling cast boolits (the Bullshop comes to mind) are caughing up $1,750/year.

IMHO, the U.S. State Department rots! It's been a bastion of communist and liberals since the early 20th centruy.
Again, the ITAR does not apply to dealers. I doubt most cast bullet companies, even the larger ones are paying ITAR. Most people don't even know about it.

The general purpose of ITAR was military weapons and ordnance like missile launch systems, explosives, etc. With the wording, the little guys for the civilian market got swept under the rug.

The major key, which the ATF is trying to figure out, is how is the ITAR enforced. The ATF does not enforce it but does mention it to the manufacturing FFLs to look into it. If the State Department is enforcing it for military companies but pretty much leaving the civilian companies alone, then one might be safe from not complying with ITAR. It's sort of like police will usually not bat an eye if you're driving 5 or 10mph over the speed limit, but do 15mph+ over it and they'll enforce the law. The ATF is trying to get the official word from the State Department as to how it effects FFLs for the civilian market, but the bureaucracy is eating at them too. When they know more, there will be an open letter to FFLs mentioning the ITAR ruling.

cadet3
June 16, 2008, 02:12 AM
Do you include yourself in this group that pays the yearly fee?

freakshow10mm
June 16, 2008, 10:43 AM
I abide by all laws pertaining to my business.

strat81
June 16, 2008, 03:27 PM
Freakshow, how did you find all of this out? The ammo FFL is somewhat common knowledge but I've never heard of ITAR. Does the ATF tell you about it?

What kind of state regs have you had to deal with? Do you operate out of your basement or do you lease/own space in an industrial park? What about State Fire Marshal compliance?

Does SAAMI or NSSF have a brochure or something for this?

freakshow10mm
June 17, 2008, 12:08 AM
No, I learned about it on Silencertalk.com.

No state regulations or local regulations to deal with. The biggest hindrance is zoning. Firearms industry is unregulated in my village so I don't have to worry about that. I can make whatever I want. If I get the type 10 FFL and have my SOT2 tax paid, I can make missiles, grenades, flame throwers, and other destructive devices on my property. The only thing holding me back is money.

I cast bullets in my garage and load ammunition in my office/reloading room on the ground floor in my house. When I begin to make firearms (my FFL is due next week) they will be made between my garage and my office/reloading room.

There is no requirement for State Fire Marshal stuff according to the ATF. They just stated it would be a good idea to write a letter to the local FD explaining the quantities of smokeless powder and primers kept and where they are. I drafted a crude floorplan of my home's ground floor and labeled where they are kept.

To my knowledge SAAMI nor NSSF have any information or literature regarding commercial bullet casting or ammunition loading.

For me, I just needed the FFL and pay the ITAR fee. I have my LLC registered and a state sales and use tax license as well as an FEIN number (you need one for paying the SOT for NFA weapons).

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