What rifle did he use (British)


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nutty7462
June 11, 2008, 11:14 PM
What was the standard issue rifle for the British army during the 60s? Probably mid to late 60s? He said they called then SLRs, but didn't know anything beyond that.

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Limeyfellow
June 11, 2008, 11:17 PM
The SLR (short for Self Loading Rifle) is the British version of the FN Fal. It is cut with an inch pattern, so it is a little different from many countries. Australia and many others commonwealth countries used the same.

Robert
June 11, 2008, 11:18 PM
You are right on the SLR. If am not mistaken the SLR was British Army speak for what we know as the FN/FAL. Of course it would have been the inch model not the metric. But then again I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

Dienekes
June 11, 2008, 11:20 PM
FAL SLR L1A1. Spent a little time with some Aussies in an exotic land once carrying one.

Nice rifle. I probably ought to own one.

MTMilitiaman
June 11, 2008, 11:20 PM
Yes, it was the Self-Loading Rifle or SLR, which was a version of the Belgian FN FAL that was very popular during that time period and into the 70s and even the 80s. It was called the "Right Arm of the Free World," for this reason. I believe the British used the inch pattern instead of the metric pattern receiver that was more popular. The rifle was so popular and adopted by so many countries that the British, armed with SLRs, fought Argentinans armed with SLRs when they retook to islands. Pretty much the only difference was the the British version lacked the capability to fire fully automatic (not uncommon among battle rifles), while the Argentine version could.

Think 7.62x51mm gas operated, air cooled, short piston, tilting block firing from, typically, a detachable 20 round magazine.

Coronach
June 11, 2008, 11:26 PM
What they said. The SLR, aka L1A1, aka FN-FAL, aka Right Arm of the Free World. In the running for best battle rifle EVAR, and still in widespread use today in several corners of the world.

Mike

GunTech
June 12, 2008, 12:55 AM
SLRs we in used as late as the Falklands, where FAL fought FAL. The L1A1 was adopted around 1957, and served until replaced by the SA80 in 1985. Unlike the FAL, the L1A1 was semi-automatic only, with no provision for fully automatic fire.

uk roe hunter
June 12, 2008, 04:43 AM
the slr soldiered well into the 90's with some arms. the sa80 (L85a1)was issued piecemeal to the infantry first up then to other units. I used the SLR between 1988 and 1992. i found it accurate, super reliable, very tough. The replacement i carried round west belfast was flimsy, unreliable, more accurate upto 300 yards but the magazine used to drop off, it would only cycle 4 or 5 rounds before packing up.
we used to do a defensive battle simulation where a section of men would be in a fortified position and the targets, that fell when hit, advanced in waves from 600 metres.
I was an experienced shot as a lad and and my job in this exercise was to knock down the far away targets. I used to nail them, i loved it. the rifle used to get so hot i couldn't hold the forend with a bare hand.I use to hold the sling near the swivel. My rifle just never seemed to stop.
when doing FIBUA (urban fighting) the rifle was good for knocking doors down etc. My training sgt was a naval gunfire observation officer. He went up tumbledown with the Scots guards. He was , as part of a special unit, issued with an M16 but changed back to an SLR. He told me that with the 7.62 weapon if you hit the enemy they went down and stayed down whereas sometimes it took 4 shots from the 5.56.
I liked it. It was an awesome rifle in skilled hands in the defensive battle it was envisaged for it would have been commanding.

uk

everallm
June 12, 2008, 09:22 AM
One thing that tended to differentiate the SLR/L1A1 from most other weapons of the time was that at a (relatively) early stage the weapon was issued with 4X optical sights, the SUIT (Sight, Unit, Infantry Trilux).

Another solid, squaddie proof piece of kit I used to love. If you ran out of ammunition it acts as a very effective club.....8-)

nutty7462
June 12, 2008, 04:45 PM
Good info. Thanks! I was hoping that they didn't cost so much. Would have liked to have been able to get him one. Maybe someday.

matt87
June 12, 2008, 06:27 PM
If you're in Britain, dream on.

BruceB
June 12, 2008, 11:21 PM
Actually, the L1A1 (British nomenclature for their FAL) DOES have full-auto capability. requiring very little in the way of mods to fire full-auto. Years ago, the L1A1 was very common in Canada, and they all had the "safety sear" which is essential to FA function.

Knowing a good bit about the rifle from my Canadian Army service (Canada was the first country to put the inch-pattern FAL into production and service), I found that all I needed for FA was a suitably-modified beer can pull tab..... hey, I SAID it was "years ago"!

With the little piece of aluminum installed in the trigger-sear assembly, I had reliable full-auto function at about 800 rpm, but ONLY full-auto, and the thumb safety was non-functional. I judged the firing rate by comparison to my MG42 and Bren MGs, one faster at 1200 rpm and the other slower at about 500-600 rpm. A full-auto 10-pound 7.62 NATO is a handful, but firing from supported prone allowed reasonable effectiveness to maybe 100 yards in 3-round bursts on man-silhouettes. A BAR bipod mounted on the flash suppressor also steadied things quite nicely, adding a couple of pounds out front.

It was fun, but certainly not practical.

HoosierQ
June 13, 2008, 10:05 AM
Did Springfield Armory not make one of these for awhile. They don't seem to today. I thought they wanted to do for the FN-FAL what they still do for the M-14 in the way of the M1A.

uk roe hunter
June 13, 2008, 11:07 AM
i doubt it FN are belgium, or is it belgique? do springfield make browning stuff? if they do they might

Float Pilot
June 13, 2008, 04:44 PM
Springfield Armory imported a semi auto version of the FN made in South America. I had a couple. Nothing to write home about, but they worked. Mine were metric pattern guns and not the Inch pattern SLR. Both were traded for M-1As which were Much more accurate than the South American FAL types.
FAL type rifles were made in various countries via license.

El Tejon
June 13, 2008, 04:55 PM
nut, it was called the "mechanical musket". Who is the "he" that you reference? Family, friend, crazed ex-Squaddie living in your basement?:D

Nice rifle. I probably ought to own one.

Dek, if you buy one, you have to post a photo of you running around with your knees up and then saluting palm up!:D Right then, run like the clappers to the gun store.:p

Did Springfield Armory not make one of these for awhile.

Fellow Hoosier, yes, they did. Called it the SAR-48. I had friends in the '80s that owned them. Decent weapons.

I doubt it FN are belgium, or is it belgique? do springfield make browning stuff? if they do they might

FN is based in Belgium, but make stuff in different places, even Souf Cackalacky. The FNs that Springfield Armory marketed were South American receivers finished up in Illinois.

Nolo
June 13, 2008, 05:11 PM
I heard the FAL was extremely reliable except in sand. Since I'm sure there are people here who've used an FAL in adverse conditions, can you tell me more?

Deer Hunter
June 13, 2008, 05:14 PM
The stock FAL had a little trouble in the sand (what rifle doesn't, to a degree?). Most problems were fixed by adding sand cuts to the receiver.

Nolo
June 13, 2008, 05:17 PM
sand cuts
I've seen those, how do they affect accuracy?

Deer Hunter
June 13, 2008, 05:40 PM
As far as I know it didn't affect the accuracy. Don't take my word for it, though. Check the FAL Files to be sure.

everallm
June 13, 2008, 06:14 PM
The sand cuts were/are shallow diagonal milling in the surface of the bolt carrier.

Has no affect on the accuracy at all, just allows sand to be moved away from the action and reduce the possibility of binding.

Limeyfellow
June 13, 2008, 11:07 PM
The sand cuts work really well and don't effect accuracy. They also have a variable gas system, and you can just up the power to keep the fal soldiering on.

DSArms is probably your best bet for a new Fal nowadays, but many FALs built with an Imbel reciever are fine rifles.

I love them.

Nolo
June 13, 2008, 11:08 PM
What is the inherent accuracy of the FAL like? I've heard tilting blocks are innacurate.

Limeyfellow
June 14, 2008, 12:38 AM
The same as any other battle rifle typically. 2-4 MOA. I seen some shoot better. Mine normally does 2 inches at a 100 yards. Some of the crappier builds such as Century Frankenfals may have a little less accuracy.

They do have wonderful ergonomics though in my opinion.

Nolo
June 14, 2008, 12:48 AM
Well, the M1A will get 1 MOA, if I remember correctly.
And the G3 has the PSG version, which can get lower than 1 MOA (and is really heavy).
I was moreso talking about the action, not individual rifles.

cameron.personal
June 14, 2008, 12:48 AM
All this talk about FALs and not one person posted a pic???

Here is a 2008 version of the "Right Arm of the Free World"

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/c2008pictures/Metal/ALL/DSAFALLeft.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/c2008pictures/Metal/ALL/DSAFALRight.jpg

Limeyfellow
June 14, 2008, 01:21 AM
Well, the M1A will get 1 MOA, if I remember correctly.
And the G3 has the PSG version, which can get lower than 1 MOA (and is really heavy).
I was moreso talking about the action, not individual rifles.

So will an accurised Fal, but most aren't built that way.

A standard grade M1A or a military M14 and generally are in the in the 2-4 MOA range, and even today the military acceptance grade for M14 and M16s is 4 MOA. A high quality build Fal and the right ammo could drop down to 1 moa, though you spending the same sort of money you would on a match national m1a. It would be a bit unfair of course to compare national match rifles with a standard grade build.

Ignition Override
June 14, 2008, 02:08 AM
Sidetrack on this general topic. Caliber questions etc.

Maybe our DOD can someday trade a whole warehouse of AR-15s for some British/Aussie/Euro FN FALs if they are still functional.

Wouldn't the large round be much better keeping the insurgents' heads down and going through thin obstacles with the ability to still penetrate? My Russian 7.62x54R (steel core), with each shot, went through both sides of a large oxygen cylinder. Would an AR do that?
Many combat veterans prefer the 7.62 caliber and point out how the DOD would lose face if it tried were to discuss this. Maybe if this one winds down fairly soon, they could order quite a bit+spare parts. Are the still-popular M-14s only used by snipers?
Don't the M-14s and FALs function much better with Asian sand and grit than AR-15s? an Iraq veteran described the dust as talcum powder and aircraft have to be specially protected. Not only engine intakes but various 'bleed air' systems and pitot-static (airspeed, ivsi, altimeter: even engine 13-stage bleed air comparison for pack auto shut-off) functions etc are quite vulnerable. My company's equipment was quite vulnerable enough (here) to maint. outsourcing and its 'well-camouflaged' follies. So maybe ARs function ok outside when the wind blows over there? I have the impression that the enemy's AKs and the SKS rifles will still shoot under almost any conditions.

I am not qualified to question what many veterans seem to prefer. Maybe toes are stepped on, and am a relative novice with guns
(certainly no {yet} hunting or combat experience), but we are talking about American lives along with allied troops' lives (and those of the 'host country')
Maybe it is best to carry much more of lighter, thinner ammo. Many Vietnam vets call the AR "the Mouse Gun". Some prefer the AK-47.
Much of this on 'Warrifles' etc.

Nolo
June 14, 2008, 02:18 AM
The thing is, 7.62 NATO's great and all, but it's too damn big. To many, 5.56 is too damn small. You need something in the middle.
Which is pretty much what the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are trying to do.

Limeyfellow
June 14, 2008, 02:20 AM
Maybe our DOD can someday trade a whole warehouse of AR-15s for some British/Aussie/Euro FN FALs if they are still functional.



Unfortantly they were all shot out and falling to pieces decades ago. Those that were in better condition were sold off.

Wouldn't the large round be much better keeping the insurgents' heads down and going through thin obstacles with the ability to still penetrate? My Russian 7.62x54R (steel core), with each shot, went through both sides of a large oxygen cylinder. Would an AR do that?

Not really. The 5.56mm NATO is going to put you down with shot placement the same as any other round. There are tales from WW1 of soldiers complaining how the 30-06 doesn't have any real stopping power too. Now it might have some problems going through some of the houses in Iraq, but so do many 20mm rounds have problems. Plus it allows far more rounds to be carried and far easier to be aimed and keep on target.

Many combat veterans prefer the caliber and point out how the DOD would lose face if it tried were to discuss this. Maybe if this one winds down, they could use them plus the same ammo required by the still-popular M-14s.
Don't the M-14s and FALs function much better with Asian sand and grit than AR-15s?

Many prefer the M16 too. Heck you be lucky to even come across an M14 in Iraq. It is kind of a rare sight no matter how much hype you hear about it. As for dealing with the grit, the 40 years of improvement on the Ar-15 has really helped with that. Of course I yet to hear who these many veterans crying for the M14 are. We also have to realise the Ar-15 of today is quite different from the one carried in early Vietnam.

Ignition Override
June 14, 2008, 02:25 AM
Please delete duplication, 'computer freeze confusion'.

Ignition Override
June 14, 2008, 02:33 AM
Thank you for the diplomatic responses to a late-bloomer's (always bumbling) quest for the big picture.
Nolo-even Ruger has built a Mini in 6.8, as you may be well aware of (maybe Wolf will produce such low-price ammo).

It's good to be better informed on our troops' main rifles. Believe the M-14s went to certain select units in Afghanistan.

My Mini 14, 30 (and SKS) are keeping our general area truly safe from floating insurgent grapefruits and Taliban melons.

Ever vigilant (Semper vigi-).

nutty7462
June 14, 2008, 02:40 AM
"he" is a friend/mentor.

SMLE
June 14, 2008, 03:13 AM
I own a Springfield SAR-48. It is built on an Imbel receiver. It is as accurate as any stock military semi-auto I have fired, M1, M1A, H&K 91.

woodybrighton
June 14, 2008, 06:14 AM
SLR didn't break and you could always have giggles if there was a yank on the range by winding the gas down to maximum so maximum recoil:evil:
but 120 rounds as standard load not good :(

matt87
June 14, 2008, 09:21 AM
120 rounds? I heard it was 80 (3 mag changes). Either way, a bit lacking.

I understand there are a lot of SLRs sitting in the back of the larger armouries, along with L4 Brens, BHPs, Stirling SMGs etc. Turns out, since we have emergency conscription and a small standing army (even counting the Weekend Warriors) we don't have that many L85s, L86s or Minimis on hand. That'd be great fun; issueing a whole load of Johnny Joblesses half-worn-out SLRs and a few hundred rounds of that hot-loaded RG 7.62 intended for machineguns, and telling them 'enemy are over that hill. You run at them, and draw their fire.' Quite the credible emergency defence plan huh? :uhoh:

woodybrighton
June 14, 2008, 11:09 AM
think the decent SLR's got given to sirea leoane see the west side boys
everything else got scrapped:(
fired 7.62 taken from link though an SLR not a problem.
might have a problem in some 9mm pistols firing 9mm meant for smgs though

everallm
June 14, 2008, 07:13 PM
When I had less waist and more waistline and had to schlep the L1A1 the official hot to trot warrie load was 5 or 7 magazines of 20 (depending on how relaxed your 58 pattern mag pouches were) plus at least 100 round belt for the GPMG.

If your section or platoon commander gave you the "things may go pear shaped" look you would then beg, borrow or steal a spare respirator case and load another 6-10 load of 20 round boxes in.

If in doubt more ammo, more water..........

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