[280PLUS]

but i'm not familiar with the different types.

what i'm looking for is something where i don't have to spend a lot of $ on equipment and find tuning but still achieve decent results

i've been thinking i want a remmy 700vs in .308 for this purpose, thinking it would be a good all around choice.

now i'm hearing .308 is not the best round for competition (or at least "benchrest")

would anybody mind giving me a brief run down on the choices

what are the popular rounds?

for some reason i believe i want to shoot anywhere from 200 to 600 yds

but that would be an uneducated guess on my part

thanx!

m

[Steve Smith]

Do not buy ANYTHING until you are sure of what you want to do.

You need to spend a lot of time researching the different rifle sports, to find out which one is best for you.

You already know I shoot Highpower Rifle. It is a sport in which you shoot iron sighted rifles, (either military or enhanced versions), at distances of 200, 300, and 600 yards, from field positions, with both slow and rapid fire portions of the match. There are some sub-categories that allow for scopes, but they are rarely organized. Highpower really centers around the iron sight. If you are interested in this, I suggest you search THR for "Highpower" and you will find a lot to read. Then if you have questions, you can ask. FWIW, Connecticut has a very strong Highpower program.

There are a lot of other rifle sports, but I am not really sure how popular they are in your area. I am also not the guy to discuss them, as I would probably do a poor job. I know Bogie shoots Benchrest, maybe he'll have some things to say about that.

[gunrunner1000]

figure out what you want to soot CMP is nice to start with most clubs have M 1 Garands they will let you use. AR 15 or Ar 10 is nice
a nice caliber getting alot of people hooked is the 6mm22-250 I build them off the Ar 10 have a couple of bolt rifles too you may want to check out the magizne precision shooting thire web sight is www.precisionshooting.com

[280PLUS]

youre definitely right steve, time to stop and look around somemore

highpower sounds interesting, what is the prevalent round / rifle for this one?

matchgrade bushy in .223?

i have a shorty ak and had considered the match grade upper they offer

i havent spent any $ yet so i'm still not too far gone in any direction on this and may not purchase anything for another 6 months at least

benchrest, so far, sounds to me like the more expensive sport to compete in, but that doesnt mean i'm right about that either.

i'll do the search you recommend and get a little more informed on the subject.

ok, who else likes what kind of shooting out there??

[Steve Smith]

I hate to say this, but I think that Highpower could be equal to Benchrest in cost, when you consider all the gear you accumulate. In HP, the rifles are relatively cheap, but you need some other gear to really "compete." Seems like the rifles themselves are more pricey in BR, but some of the other equipment needs are considerably less. I think I'll get Bogie to come over here and post. Maybe he and I can even come up with a cost comparison.

To answer your other question, the favorite cartridge in Highpower today, is the .223, typically fired from an AR-15 A2 in Service Rifle configuration. There are a myriad of other configurations, action types, sight types, and more, most of which are Match Rifles. There is lots of info about this and what a "Service Rifle" and a "Match Rifle" are in the archives.

If you should eventually decide to do this, don't just go out and buy an upper, because there are specific things you will want on it. Patience.

[280PLUS]

yea, i'll probably stick with my cheapo .22 pistol competitions for now, the rifle stuff is obviously a wee bit more complicated than i originally thought
if you REALLY want to compete succesfully, that is.

plus the guys are after me to get into .45 target but i'm just not crazy about spending all this $, for right now anyways

i'll just keep my eyes and ears open for the time being,

are high power and benchrest the only games around or are there others i could look into?

i guess the best thing to do would be attend a few of these competitions and do a little covert (or not so covert) information gathering

but i kind of had my heart set on that .308 remmy :(

i really wanted to see what i could do with it set up right,

but can't justify the expense if i cant use it for anything else...

i got a line on a good one, from bogie as a matter of fact (bob white and the shooters corner)

from edna white

"$973 for a 700vs with a trued action & glass beaded with an oversized recoil lug" ($913 for laminated stock)

plus they have a used leupold, 6.5x20 vari x III,

the total package was about $1400

isn't there any compo i could use this setup for??

:D

[SRM]

The .308 is the standard cartridge for palma shooting. With a scope, it will be an "F" class rifle.

Palma is shot from prone at 800,900 and 1000 yards. The rifle mentioned will be regarded as a "starter" rifle.

You might want to consider metallic silhouette. MS is shot from standing.

Another option would be hunter class benchrest. Again, your rifle would be regarded as a starter rifle.

HTH....SRM

[Steve Smith]

isn't there any compo i could use this setup for??

Well, there are, but there aren't many, and I don't know of any in the North East. It would work for both NRA Highpower F-Class, and the "Sniper" competitions. Both are pretty rare. I'll be honest with you, there is not much out there for scoped bolt gun competition. That's why I told you to stop in my first post. Yeah, they're good setups, but there's no comp organization.

There are a lot of smallbore venues that I failed to mention, like NRA, International, and Olympic Smallbore Rifle. All will be position shooting with iron sights, and mostly indoors. After the initial investment (mainly the rifle in this sport) your reoccurring costs are very low, in comparison to that of centerfire competition. That, along with the fact that you don't have to go from yard line to yard line (thus incurring more equipment), lowers the investment considerably. Air rifle is even more inexpensive, but you'll still have about $1500 in a good rifle. Ammo is cheap and you never have to rebarrel, though. ;)

If you go to a Highpower competition, don't be surprised if a competitor sets you up with gear so you can shoot that day. Go, ask questions, especially of the Match Director (like "Can I stand here and watch?", so he will hopefully see that you don't have gear. Bingo, you're in, and shooting that day. Bring a lunch.

SRM had a good catch. Silhouette is another you could look into.

Found these things:

Descripiton of Metallic Silhouette: http://www.ssaa.org.au/metalic.html

and a search of wheretoshoot.org showed a good deal of both Smallbore and Rifle Silhouette in CT.

[bogie]

The most important thing to consider - Are there _____ matches in your area?

I'm VERY lucky, in that one of the big benchrest centers AND highpower centers is about an hour's drive away.

Our folks also shoot silhouette - basically any rifle, etc...

If you're into varminting, look at www.benchrest.com.

A _competitive_ rifle will cost you $1,500 and up, your loading gear about $500 and up, and your rests, etc., will run about another $500.

[Steve Smith]

Thanks Bogie.

A brief HP price list:
Gun (Service Rifle) = $1000
Spotting scope and stand = $400 to $800
Coat = $100 to $200
Reloading equip = $200 if you want to go cheap
Glove = $25
Sling = $50

After that you can add as man or as few accessories as you want.

[Dave P]

280, you were looking at: "$973 for a 700vs with a trued action & glass beaded with an oversized recoil lug" ($913 for laminated stock)"


That sounds a bit high to me for what is offered. A new one is about $650, and until you wear out the factory bbl and get a better one (many years!), the truing and bedding won't be noticable or cost effective.

Now Steve has more HP experience than me so I won't argue, but I can shoot my 308 VSSF in a variety of local HP matches (not as much fun as M1/M1A, tho), in the scoped match rifle category. And I am really sure it is only F class when you use supports (bags/bipods) when shooting.

[Steve Smith]

Outside of F Class there is no scoped rifle category in Highpower. Your local club may have a non-award, unofficial category, but that is outside of the realm of HP and your scores are not to be turned in to the NRA.

[280PLUS]

that doesnt sound TOO bad, on the $ anyhow,

FYI, i ran into a guy at the range that was working on a load for his deer rifle, (270 wsm) and we spent a couple of hours with him talking about the nuances of handloading

eg, by sizing the cases just .0005 smaller he gained 70 fps

so to me, i can see where it would be a major investment in time and $ if i wanted to compete effectively and get everything right

the long distance shooting does interest me, but i think steve is right, not too much near me

i do know a couple of guys that go somewhere about 4 hrs from here for 600 yd

thanx for the input on the price too, i have seen them for $650 but thought i was getting a little better rifle for the extra $

i dont really have a problem with a starter rifle (thats what i would be anyhow) cant see spending major dinero on a slicked up super rifle for something i might not continue for one reason or another

i don't necessarily want to win, just represent myself well...

now,,,how glad am i that i asked these questions? :D

[Hutch]

Ditto on the hunter class benchrest competition. I have a 700VS in .308, and have been competitive in our little club competition.

[Steve Smith]

If you learn to shoot a rifle with iron sights, you'll be able to hold your own in a thread like this:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37473

:D

The understanding of rifle shooting is worth the hard work.

[280PLUS]

very interesting , because #1 it tells me if i fool around with rear aperture a little i may be able to bring the front post into focus, which it is not on my bushy, at least not without working at it

but i'm going to put a little $.02 in,

i learned this from one of the top shooters around here

forget sight alignment, it is totally 100% automatic (especially for an experieced shooter) and doesnt need any second guessing, trust it and forget about it.

concentrate instead on a controlled slow smooth trigger pull, even when youre shooting offhand, forget that the sights are all over the target and just execute a clean trigger pull.

there was a computer study done that tracked the poa throughout shot sequences and it showed that the AVERAGE shooter is centered on the target 95% of the time, so the better shooters are the ones that by developing a good strong hold over the years have increased that number to say 97 - 98% and better

it's all in the trigger pull

you may already know this of course but it just amazes me how well it works that i always bring it up in a discussion like that, i didnt want to bump the thread though

and, just so we're on the same page, i was hittting empty shotgun shells set up on the target stands at 50 ft - offhand with a bolt action .22 when i was 12

i'm 46 now, don't know if i can do it anymore, can't see the :cuss: shells...

:fire:

:D

oh, whats the coat about, i mean i have a general idea but where can i find some info on it?

m

[Steve Smith]

Well, if you read the entire thread you will see that both hps1 (another Highpower shooter) and I agree that sight alignment isn't an "automatic" 100% for high-precision, long distance work. It is something that you should pay attention to for each shot. Others here I'm sure will chime in and agree (JC121, Blind Rat, SRM).

[El Rojo]

Here is my experience.

Highpower. Talk about addictive and talk about expensive. The rifle is one thing, but then you need a spotting scope and stand, coat, mat, and glove. There are other things and they were listed before. However, shooting your rifle at 200, 300, and 600 and hitting where you want is lots and lots of fun, plus a confidence builder. If you have the money, Highpower is a fun sport to get into. I use my M1A since I am out here in the PRK. I would love to have a nice AR and use it in highpower, but it ain't happening. You can start in highpower without some of that stuff and just borrow, but you want to have your own. I recommend highpower. It is lots of fun and if you don't have an AR, get one, get one for me since I can't anymore!

Palma. I bought a Remington 700 VS with a Leupold 6.5-20x50 LRT scope (http://home.bak.rr.com/elrojo14/pictures/700prtc4.jpg). I didn't really have a purpose for buying it other than I wanted to. I loaded up some 110 gr. V-max in it and used it for coyotes and squirrels and for shooting little groups on paper. Then I found out there is a 1000 yard range 30 minutes from my house. Now if you have a 1000 yard range 30 minutes from your house, this probably would be the most cost effective "big gun shooting" shooting. You can get a bipod and shoot in the F Class. I really like shooting 1000 yards. Plus you can get into palma which is shooting 800, 900, and 1000. Now the good shooters buy new rifles and shoot open sights. I am not that into that, I like being more practical. This is a fun one to shoot, but agai, a lot of your decision might want to be based on distance to the range.

.22 Matches. If you want to shoot more informal .22 matches, this is probably yhe way to go. I shot a falling playe .22 match a couple weeks ago and it was a lot of fun. And just about any .22 will do, but if you get a trigger job done, it will probably do you a lot of good. There are many variations, it just takes some research to see what is available in your area.

[b]Three gun]/b]. I just recently shot my first three gun match. Three gun involves shooting your pistol, shotgun, and rifle. Some stages are just one, some are shotgun and pistol, some are all three. It varies and it emphasizes some tactical aspects. I found it fun as well.

All of these shooting event should be fun. I did try the highpower silloute once, I wasn't too impressed, but I think it had more to do with some of the people there and the shooting format they were using. Take into consideration the location of the range and how likely you are to get out and go do it. The other thing is if you have some money, buy that Remington 700 VS and go shoot it. Word of caution, the gun you were considering buying sounded awefully expensive. I got mine for $710 out the door, plus about $650 for the Long Range Target scope with side focus for a grand total of $1360. However, for long range you still need an 15 or 20 MOA angled base in order to raise the elevation on your rifle and the rings to match are going to be about $150-$200. Then I bought a HS Precision PRT-25 stock which was $450. I sold the old stock on eBay for $150.

Another suggestion is you go to a match or two with some good quality ammo and see if you can borrow some equipment. I did find that highpower and palma shooters are some of the nicest guys and gals around and are more than willing to help. Just stay safe and they will help you beyond what you might expect for normal human beings.

[280PLUS]

theres this relatively local range thats been "working" on a 500 yd course for a while i guess, maybe i should put my energies toward finishing it for them and maybe trying to get it out to 600 yds.

and go from there... :D

and well, not being a long distance shooter as of yet i'll step back from my standpoint a little, sight alignment is important, theres no doubt about that, but i might stick my neck out just a little and say it might not be quite as important (by just a hair) as a good trigger pull

or put another way, a tiny error in sight alignment will most likely not put you as far away from the X as a bad trigger pull

but thats just IMHO of course

or maybe i should just buy some land and put up my OWN 1000 yd course

"if you build it they will come..."

would you guys come???

;)

[Steve Smith]

New England is a nice place, yeah, I'd come.

BTW, as hps1 said, .007" of sight misalignment = 1 minute of angle for every 100 yards. I think that is for an M1A. It is even less (something like .005"?) for an AR-15. Sight alignment is critical, as is trigger control. However, you can have the trigger control of David Tubb but if your sights are pointed at something other than the target, you're not hitting what you want.

#1 priority is sight alignment and sight picture.
#2 priority is trigger control

[280PLUS]

my feeling is that if youve been shooting the same dependable accurate firearm for some time you develop an "automatic" if you will, feel for the correct sight picture/alignment with it and should learn to trust it,,,

eg. ive only shot the new bushy once offhand so far, at a piece of orange clay bird 100 yds, i was all over the place with the sights but said the heck with it and thought clean smooth trigger pull

i hit the thing,

i couldnt believe it

felt pretty good too

:D

honestly, i see a niche for a nice long range course in this area, i may actually look into it, could be a nice career change going into my later years...i'll let you know when its finished ;)

[Steve Smith]

my feeling is that if youve been shooting the same dependable accurate firearm for some time you develop an "automatic" if you will, feel for the correct sight picture/alignment with it and should learn to trust it,,,

Ok, that part is right. The more you succeed with your rifle, the easier it gets. Many reasons. Learned response. Muscle memory. A programmed subconscious. A great self image. A conscious mind that is operating off of sub conscious knowledge and self image.

I think you guys have some full course matches in New England already.

[Konrad]

Outside of F Class there is no scoped rifle category in Highpower. Your local club may have a non-award, unofficial category, but that is outside of the realm of HP and your scores are not to be turned in to the NRA.

Steve,

Actually that isn't quite true. Look at NRA Highpower Rule 3.3.4 regarding these kind of rifles.

[Steve Smith]

I stand corected on my semantics. Here is the text of the rule:

3.3.4 NRA Any Sight Match Rifle- Same as NRA Match Rifle Rule 3.3
except there is no restriction as to sights. The following restrictions will apply:
(a) No scores fired under Rule 3.3.4 will be reported to NRA, used for
classifications or National Records.
(b) No person firing an any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.4 will be allowed
to compete with any other group of shooters who are also firing. A
competitor using any sight rifle under Rule 3.3.4 will only be eligible
for awards in their own division.
(c) Competitors firing an any sights rifle under Rule 3.3.4 will only fire
in an unclassified match. An unclassified match is a match where no
classification is used and competitors are ranked according to scores.
Unclassified matches may be held as a separate division of a Classi-
fied Match.


In other words, you can shoot with a scope, but you're not competing with anyone, other than other shooters in the Any Sight group. In addition, your scores will not be sent to the NRA nor counted toward your classification.

To clarify what I was trying to say, as far as "category" was concerned, I meant within the Service Rifle, Match Rifle, F-Class, and Palma hierarchy.

Most active Highpower ranges do have an "Any-Any" match once or twice a year. I try to compete in them regulary, as they are usually 3x600 matches. Scope shooters usually get their butts kicked.

[280PLUS]

is that they magnify the movement of the rifle poa on the target making it look worse than with iron sights, causing the dreaded chicken finger at a higher rate.

i understand that when shooting prone everything should be virtually immovable, even though a jerk of the trigger will cause problems even prone

but sitting and standing are different,

there is some unavoidable movement in the rifle,

it tends to make people jerk the trigger when the sights line up dead center

that jerk imperceptibly courses through your whole body whether you realize it or not, and usually contains a blink as well, its ok to blink, (most of us do) but you need to be surprised by the gun so that the blink comes just a fraction of a second after the round leaves the barrel

the better shots have, over years of practice, been able to minimize that poa movement and have also learned not to disturb the hold with the trigger pull.

if you ignore the movement and just make a nice clean trigger pull your goal, chances are you will shoot better

trust your inherent abilities of holding the rifle on target 95% of the time (or better). don't question them, chicken finger is the result of second guessing your abilities

if during your pull you find yourself decreasing the pressure on your trigger or even stopping it completely (total chicken finger) in response to the sights going off center you will not be consistent in your scoring

once you commit to the pull you do not let up, you do not stop, this is how you develop a consistent pull

the only reason for stopping is taking too long to start the pull once you establish your hold (5 sec?)

when i hit that piece of bird, it looked like the sights were no where near the target, thats why i couldnt believe it

again, youve probably heard all this before, but i always put it up because i DID get this from a couple of hours work with a very superior shooter who is kind enough to work with anyone to improve their skills

it also helps to reinforce my own thinking on the subject by writing it out once in a while

he easily added 15 points to my scores with this info (50 ft x .22 pistola)

say from 265 to 280plus :D

words similar to the ones right outta his mouth:

"Forget the target. The target is a report card of how you did on your side of the gun."

[Steve Smith]

I think the thing is this...Once you really get a good trigger pull down, you don't think of it as much. Dry fire plenty and watch your sights very carefully as the hammer falls. If you ever start to get a bad trigger pull, you'l see it immediately.

No offense, but at this point, this conversation is a little beyond you. Depending on what competition you finally decide on, you'll fist have to work out a good position, and then start working on trigger pull, and as you're doing that, you can start refining your hold to the point that you are really paying attention to the front sight and your sight picture. At some point, a good deal of this becomes automatic. I rarely even have to think about pulling the trigger for 600 prone anymore. My brain knows what a good sight picture looks like and the gun goes bang.

[280PLUS]

my brain knows what a good sight picture looks like and it starts the trigger pull

the gun goes bang shortly afterward...

heres something i shot just recently, so you can see the conversation is not over my head that much, ive shot a couple better since this one too BTW

50 ft rapid fire, standing right hand only

all i'm doing in this conversation is adapting pistol shooting to rifle shooting, which is reverse of how i learned. i learned to shoot a rifle first (12) then adapted THAT to pistol at 18

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=401605

fwiw,,,if youre looking in horror at my target over at the august match,,,don't let that fool you,,,

the triple threw me off, i second guessed my abilities, after 3 shots i saw only one hole, i thought i was missing the paper so i adjusted up and down

i'll admit i'm still getting dialed in with it but all i see is the triple and the head shot,,, cause that was intentional, the right flier was at the head too

:D

[Steve Smith]

280, I wasn't trying to insult you and wasn't even looking at a target for reference. All I'm saying is once a person has some experience in the sport, the sight alignment/trigger control situation seems to get clearer, at least it did for me. :)

[280PLUS]

no insult taken, i just want you to know i'm not that much of a noob, just for reference.

i get the feeling you think i'm a total beginner

i may be to the particulars of high power or the like but not to plain old fashioned shootin' ;)

plus i figured youd seen my entry for this months match, makes me shudder but i aint scared to put it up

did you enter? theres still time...

:D

[Steve Smith]

I don't even have the time to go to the range for "fun" anymore. :( I haven't reloaded a single round except for match ammo in almost a year! Haven't shot at the range "for fun" in ages. Now, I have been on a range more than 30 weekends in the last calendar year, and have had a good time, but none have been for casual shooting.

In fact, I plan to put the rife away, and start making a ton of handgun rounds during the winter. Maybe some hot .45 Colts, too. Yeah....

Yeah, I did assume you were a noob. sorry.

[280PLUS]

ive been shooting just for fun all summer, just to relax and get my head screwed on straight for the next season, per the army pistol marksmanship manual

first match is 9/9 and goes on 1 a week for the next 26,

did a trigger job on the mkII over the summer and the above target was the first time shooting it, the last 2 sessions were even more outstanding with it so...

i'm getting pumped!!

like you, time is a big limiting factor for me

one thing i like about .22 is everybody shoots pretty much the same ammo so it takes out one of the variables (good ammo vs bad) (factory vs hand load) and levels the playing field a little

then its just a matter of your pistol and your skills, and although i went the cheaper route, i can benchrest my mk II and shoot 10 rounds at 50 ft that you can cover with a dime, so i'd say it was accurate enough, i sure beat a lot of s&w 41's with it...

:D