[Joe D]

The price of lead is now under .80 per lb. This is over a $1.00 per lb lower than it's high. Lead inventories continue to climb. It is time to start putting pressure on the bullet manufacturers to start dropping their prices. If we don't nothing will happen.

[distra]

Yeah, BUT gas @ $4.00. Transporting all that Pb weight now costs almost 2x more over last year. I doubt the bullet prices will drop in reponse to lead prices only. Fuel prices are killing the economy and driving the price of everything up.

[308sc]

Yep agreed Distra....when gas goes up everything you see on the selfs goes up with it. Our society is based upon gas, I mean when you think about it if the US didn't have gas/oil/petroleum during uprising of this nation then our lifestyle would be completely different today, but I am pretty sure there is still alot of profit in ammunition sales...but what can you do? Then again I am only in 10th grade what do I know?

[armoredman]

Time to check that metals plant behind me - they produce many differant leads, including bullet casting material...

[freakshow10mm]

Good luck. My current prices are based on what the lead stock was at the time I bought it. If I lowered my price to reflect the current raw price, I'd lose money. Ammunition sales is profitable, but it's not a get rich scheme. I make ammo for a living.

[308sc]

I know it isn't for smaller commercial loaders like yourself....I was mainly referring to Winchester, Remington, and Federal...etc...
no offense taken?

[bofe954]

Good luck. My current prices are based on what the lead stock was at the time I bought it. If I lowered my price to reflect the current raw price, I'd lose money. Ammunition sales is profitable, but it's not a get rich scheme. I make ammo for a living.

So didn't this also allow you to make more profit as the price rose?

[TAB]

Also don't forget that larage manufactors buy in larage ammounts or on futures. Just becuase the price of lead is cheap today, does not mean its what they paid for it.

[Walkalong]

If we would cut out ALL unnecessary driving for a month it would make them drop the price, but we won't, will we. :)

The certain one party is doing nothing the public likes, good or not, and just begging to give away the election. :banghead:

I don't see bullets coming down any time soon either. We won't quit buying them either. :)

[freakshow10mm]

So didn't this also allow you to make more profit as the price rose?
No, I have a fixed markup for my labor. My price is comprised of cost of materials plus labor in manufacturing them into finished products.

If something costs $2 for the materials and my labor (profit) is $15, then the price is $17. If something costs $4 for the materials and my labor is $15, then the price is $19, and my profit is the same $15 no matter what the materials cost. I don't use the cost multiplier method of determining profit (labor). My labor is a fixed price and the only variable is cost of the materials. I determine my labor charge, shop around for the lowest price for materials, and then use the price guideline above.

I get paid the same no matter what the cost of materials because the labor is the same no matter what the cost is. I still have to smelt the raw metals and mix the alloy and make ingots that fit in my melter, then cast the bullets, size them, lube them, package them, ship them all the while doing QC checks along the way. I do all this whether the price of lead is 15¢/lb or 60¢/lb.

I still have several hundred pounds of lead that I paid 60¢/lb, plus the costs of tin and antimony to alloy it. Both tin and antimony are way more expensive than lead. Tin from the scrapyard is $5/lb.

I have purchased several hundred pounds of lead at 15¢/lb, so when my stash of the more expensive lead is used up and my "cheap" stash is used, I will be lowering my prices to reflect the change in the cost of materials. Once that is exhausted, the price may increase as my cost of materials increases. I don't profit off materials, I profit off my labor. There is no markup on the materials.

[scrat]

I agree with Freakshow to a certain point. He can not lower his prices because of lead prices going down. This is due to the price he paid for the lead that he currently has. His future bullets will be cheaper to make and he will again see profits better than he has seen. So he will be able to lower prices again. OR WILL HE.


Here is what usually happens. Now im not picking on Freakshow its all manufactures. As the price of lead started to increase. Most manufactures were quick to raise there prices. They raised there prices so that when they purchased lead and other raw materials they would not get the huge impact that great. HOWEVER the bullets on there shelves were made by low cost lead. So where do we profit. Where do we get the deals. Sad to say the consumer is loyal to NO ONE. We are going to look to see who gives us the best deal. Thats all were concerned about. Its great that we have known each other for over 20 years. You have made some great profits from me. I have been loyal to you. However now its all about Who gives me the best price for my dollar.



Look at Gas. Most of the gas companies rely on Crude oil from Arab states. these Arab states are hurting us where we feel it the most. In our wallets. Now we all understand that you want to make the most out of us and are charging us the most. Thats understandable. Whats hard to understand is the Gas Stations that sell Gasoline from crude oil that is pumped from the ground of U.S. soil. Why are you charging me almost 5.00 a gallon. So why am i supposed to support american if i am getting had by the american company.

So to all the lead cast bullet manufactures. My dollar goes to lowest price. If you can not give it to me then someone else will. Hopefully China does not start making bullets. However if they do and the price is rock bottom. Well im sure there are going to be be a lot of bullet manufactures closing there doors once and for all.

[rc109a]

So out of a pound of lead, how much of that is actually castable? I mean if I go out and buy 20 pounds of lead, how many 230 grain bullets could I reasonably expect to get?

[scrat]

A lot. it really depends though. usually when you use a 230 grain cast mold the bullets will come out a little higher maybe 234. You gotta do the math there are i believe 7000 grains to a pound. On casting though it really depends on certain things. One how clean the lead is. Why because if the lead is not really clean then you start to cast you will have to flux the lead. When you flux the lead you always loose a little lead then at the same time that dirt is weight. so your loosing some of the raw material weight. One thing i have learned is to do what you need and have time to cast but do the most. Meaning if you can cast 20lbs right now today. Then do it and do it all in one sitting if possible. If you do it a little now a little later then a little later on. every time you do this you need to flux. the fluxing always removes the dirt and contaminents but at the same time removes some of the lead. if you flux really good now then sit and cast you will get more for your buck. Overall though you can get a lot from 20lbs. a lot.

[snuffy]

rc109a, 7,000 grains to the pound, divided by 230 yields 30.43 boolits /pound. Now that's if the lead is the same alloy that the mold was made to use. If it's softer, it will make a heavier boolit. If it's harder, it will make a lighter boolit. So your output as far a boolit count will vary.

Now there's the sprue. That's the excess lead that is poured on the sprue plate, that is sheared off the base of the boolit after it has cooled/hardened. That is returned to the melt at some time to be recast later, but it weighs something and has to be counted. It would be literally impossible to use every last bit of lead from a purchase. When the lead in a casting pot gets below 1/3-¼ full, the boolits start NOT filling out, so more lead has to added.

[coyotehitman]

If we would cut out ALL unnecessary driving for a month it would make them drop the price, but we won't, will we.

Negative, it will make them cut production and the price will remain at equilibrium. OPEC can alter supply to keep the price of gas anywhere they want it, regardless of demand. They will continue to do this until gas hits the point where profit is maximized. If we will pay 8.00/gallon, gas will climb to 8.00/gallon as long as there is enough demand at that price to recognize profits >= 4.00/gallon.

Freakshow, my guess (correct me if I am wrong) is that bullet manufacturers raised prices when they discovered the price of lead was rising, effectively selling the lead that they paid less for at a higher margin to cover replacing the lead at a higher cost. When the price of lead rose, did you continue to sell the inventory you had in stock at less than market value, because you had purchased the lead cheaper? My guess is that most manufacturers raised prices so the consumer subsidized the increase in raw material costs on the front end, now manufacturers who have a surplus of lead want consumers to subsidize the decrease in the value of their raw materials on the back end as well. IMO, it is a win/win for manufacturers and a lose/lose for consumers.

In addition, gas prices are no excuse for not lowering prices. The cost of transportation is a factor in setting price, but when the price of raw materials decreases, the price of the good should follow.

[scrat]

Great post coyotehitman. Which brings back to the off topic if a foreign maker made and marketed cast bullets in the u.s. we can all say we wont jump ship. however eventually we will we will very quickly as the prices will be so cheap that we just could not buy them from u.s. manufactures. I know cost of a lot of products are going up. Then some are going down. problem is that most manufactures have and take advantage of the consumer. Well this consumer is not going to take it anymore.

[freakshow10mm]

So he will be able to lower prices again. OR WILL HE.
Yes, I will.


Here is what usually happens. Now im not picking on Freakshow its all manufactures. As the price of lead started to increase. Most manufactures were quick to raise there prices.
Not me. My prices were based upon my lead prices being 25¢/lb at the time I started my business. When my costs increased, I ate the additional costs for quite some time and finally had to raise my prices when my costs were 60¢/lb.

Where do we get the deals. Sad to say the consumer is loyal to NO ONE. We are going to look to see who gives us the best deal. Thats all were concerned about. Its great that we have known each other for over 20 years. You have made some great profits from me. I have been loyal to you. However now its all about Who gives me the best price for my dollar.
And that is what drives the free market: competition. I encourage "window shopping".

So to all the lead cast bullet manufactures. My dollar goes to lowest price. If you can not give it to me then someone else will.
True and goes the other way too. If you will not be my customer, someone else will.

Hopefully China does not start making bullets. However if they do and the price is rock bottom. Well im sure there are going to be be a lot of bullet manufactures closing there doors once and for all.
I thought about ceasing bullet sales but instead I'm scaling way back. My business is expanding into firearm and NFA manufacturing. Casting isn't hard work but it takes time and I cast by hand. I'm reducing the offerings to just the ones that sell and have hired local help to catch up with orders and to help build stock.

Rc109a, there isn't much scrap in the actual alloy, it's melting the raw materials and removing the contaminants is where the usable reduction occurs. If a caster is using wheel weights (WW) to supplement alloys, a decent figure is 15-20% loss, so 100lbs of WW melts down to about 80-85lbs of usable alloy which is perhaps +95% usable as it is; there will be some loss when fluxing, etc.

Freakshow, my guess (correct me if I am wrong) is that bullet manufacturers raised prices when they discovered the price of lead was rising, effectively selling the lead that they paid less for at a higher margin to cover replacing the lead at a higher cost.
I can't speak for other manufacturer's business practices, but I can say I did not do that. It can be a common price gouging method, but ethically I wouldn't do that. The current price is simply my actual cost for the materials at the time I paid for it plus my labor charge (which is a fixed amount). My price is based on a set quantity of bullets and math carried out for the other quantities. It takes the same labor per bullet so quantity discounts isn't something I offer.

My structure is set up that a customer will purchase only one listed quantity of bullets, say 500ct. This price includes shipping. If said customer orders 1K bullets, there are two shipping charges included in the final price and I take the shipping charge out of the second quantity of 500ct. I do not make profit off of shipping. I make profit off of my labor. The cost of materials and shipping are actual and my labor (profit) is added to that as a final price.

When the price of lead rose, did you continue to sell the inventory you had in stock at less than market value, because you had purchased the lead cheaper?
Yes. My prices remained the same ($65/K shipped for most) until I think it was February when I finally had to make a price adjustment (see above). Currently it looks like about 15-20 orders from now will be dipping into the new stock so the customers that already ordered at the current price will be getting a refund for the difference in the cost of the materials.

My guess is that most manufacturers raised prices so the consumer subsidized the increase in raw material costs on the front end, now manufacturers who have a surplus of lead want consumers to subsidize the decrease in the value of their raw materials on the back end as well. IMO, it is a win/win for manufacturers and a lose/lose for consumers.
Probably might have happened that way. I know Berry's has lost a lot of business with their lead surcharge, which places them as much or even more costly as jacketed bullets.

[distra]

In addition, gas prices are no excuse for not lowering prices. The cost of transportation is a factor in setting price, but when the price of raw materials decreases, the price of the good should follow.

Actually it is. See the manufacture still has to drive to work every day, go on vacation drive or fly, pay employees who drive to work every day...see where I'm going with this. Just because raw materials have dropped does not mean some other factor is not driving the price. You are absolutely correct about OPEC they got us by the short hairs as always. Until we leave the region militarily (and most likely for sometime after that) they will keep turning the screws. I've said from the start of the Iraqi war we should be filling oil tankers and escorting them out of the gulf right to our refineries. Back on topic, I think we'd be hard pressed to find anything we purchase today that is not tied to fuel and energy costs.

[Navy joe]

Probably might have happened that way. I know Berry's has lost a lot of business with their lead surcharge, which places them as much or even more costly as jacketed bullets.

Amen. Back in the good old days(4 years ago) I made very reliable and accurate 9mm Glock loads for $65/1000. Shot about 20,000 of them. The driving force was $29.99/1000 Berry's 115 plated. Now I don't care if Montana Gold is $10/1000 more for 115gr JHP than a Berry's plated. Never going to buy berrys bullets again. Well that and I sent them an e-mail asking for a price quote on 40,000 bullets and never heard from them.

[Dravur]

I honestly wish they taught economics in school nowadays...

The misinformation about the oil industry and OPEC alone is simply incredible. Look up the word fungible in the dictionary. Then look at actual outputs from OPEC vs non OPEC nations. Further the research by explaining where we buy most of our fuel. Then explain why we buy the fuel in this manner.

Look up what currency oil is commonly traded in. Explain how the weakness in the dollar leads to higher gas prices.

Then, as a lark, do a research paper on how speculators smooth out the market volatility.

Then, and the final assignment is.... breakdown the materials/profit/labor costs of 1 gallon of gas... Compare this to 10/15/20 yrs ago. Explain how the gas companies are making "obscene profits". Get the information on how much corporate taxes are paid by the oil industry. Explain why that cost gets added into each gallon of gas as well. Show the profit per unit on a chart over time. Then show who actually does make the most profit from each gallon.

funny thing is.... you can apply most of this to other commonly traded fungible items.... like lead, copper, etc

[freakshow10mm]

Funny how the state makes almost as much money off of a gallon of gasoline that the oil companies do, but the target is the companies. I've heard on Michael Regan's show (Sirius radio) that the oil companies pay taxes into the billions of dollars per year. That is insane.

[Dravur]

the state and fed government make far more on a gallon of gas than does the oil company that sells the product.... that is just in direct taxes. They also have to factor in a 41% corporate income tax.... by the way, that cost is passed on to the consumer....

Silly wabbit, companies paying corporate taxes pass those on to the user, lower the companies earnings or pawn it off in lower wages.... no other way to pay the taxman.

[ForneyRider]

I paid 2$/lb for 30lb in ingots from local lead supplier a couple of weeks ago.

[scrat]

ouch 2$/lb

[Shoney]

oil companies pay taxes into the billions of dollars NO! Consumers pay that tax and all taxes when they buy the product.

I had a successful main street business and got quite an education that they don’t teach in school. I don’t understand freak’s trend of thinking. The first responsibility when you run a business is to make a profit for the business. If he is only charging for his labor, I submit that he is either losing money, or else he is a hobby not a business. After paying myself less than my employees for years, the only profit I made was when I sold the business.

Joe Average on the street does not see the hidden costs of doing business. Costs include lights, heating/air, rent, INSURANCE, interest payment (to self or bank for money tied up in consumables) taxes, licensing, advertising, phone, internet, gift donations (to local, fraternal, social, religious, and other charitable organizations), and a lot more.

Traditional business pricing is complex, but generally it is to base the price of an item on labor + overhead + price to replace consumables for that item, even if the cost of the consumable drops to less than what the price you paid for the consumables in your stock on hand.

With lowering consumable costs, you may have to delay the price roll back or gradually lower them if your cost of the item is high, but the price must come down if you wish to remain competitive. Yes, you loose money, but that generally should have been offset by the profit you made by increasing the price to reflect replacement cost before you had to buy at the higher price.

Other factors that go into pricing are availability of consumables, driving prices up; and prices can be adjusted downward for readily available consumables. If the product is high in the number of quick turns (how quickly the product turns over in inventory in terms of days/week/months/years) it can be priced lower.

Companies who do not follow this practice may have a large market share as prices start to rise rapidly, but as soon as their cheap stock is sold, they will have to buy expensive consumables and sell at high prices. When the high prices fall, they will not be able to lower their prices, will be undersold dramatically, and usually lose profitability and die ugly deaths.

[freakshow10mm]

The first responsibility when you run a business is to make a profit for the business. If he is only charging for his labor, I submit that he is either losing money, or else he is a hobby not a business. After paying myself less than my employees for years, the only profit I made was when I sold the business.
I do make profit. This isn't a hobby, I run a business to make money and that business is making money. I don't have employees, just myself.

Joe Average on the street does not see the hidden costs of doing business. Costs include lights, heating/air, rent, INSURANCE, interest payment (to self or bank for money tied up in consumables) taxes, licensing, advertising, phone, internet, gift donations (to local, fraternal, social, religious, and other charitable organizations), and a lot more.
I operate out of my home. My overhead is quite low.

[RustyFN]

I grew up in the SF Bay Area. Back in the early 80's we built the modules for the Alaska pipeline. The weekly payroll for the electrical contractor I worked for was $5,000,000 per week. Now figure in all of the other trades it took to build the modules. The project lasted for six months. One of the guys that I went through the apprenticeship with rode the barges to Alaska and helped assemble them. I was told when he got back that once the modules were together and on-line it took the oil company 11 days, no thats not a type-o 11 days to pay off what it cost to build them. So who was it that isn't making much profit?
Rusty

[Dravur]

The fact they could pay that off that quickly means absolutely nothing. Im betting they could pay off the ham sandwich they bought for a driver pretty darn quickly as well. I am guessing they have other expenses than just the pipeline......

In point of fact, the oil companies make about the same amount of profit on a gallon of gas that they did 10 yrs ago, or even longer. You see, when the price of your materials goods goes up, you don't necessarily make more profit, you just have to raise prices to keep up with the cost of the goods, plus you have to make the same amount of profit.

The reason they make alot of money, in the good years, is simply......They sell a crapload of product. Just like McDonalds. they make about 10-15 cents per gallon, compared to the .gov taking 18 cents and the states taking an even larger, if variable chunk.

Now, on that 10-15 cents per gallon, they are also subject to a 41% corporate tax rate.

Now, there are mitigating circumstances. They do make more money when the price is going up... not alot, but some.... I notice the same people who whine about "obscene profits" don't seem to have the same feelings when the oil companies were scraping by with low profits...

Also, there are some subsidies that some oil companies get for drilling etc. These can have an effect.

But, When I see Al Gore plop down half a million ducats to drill a test well, that may be dry or produce very little, I guess I will listen to him. Naw, prolly not.

Now, next lesson, we can get into where the money actually goes..... Other countries, owners of oil wells here, speculators etc. Some might even make it back to the shareholders of oil companies... shocking, ain't it.

Economics can be your friend.

[jacobhh]

I honestly wish they taught economics in school nowadays

Economics requires Math. They have to start there. You're posting to an
educated (by virtue of our hobby/passion/schooling) audience.
Have you ever given a ten, a one and some change to a cashier so you'd
get a five back and see the blank look on their face?
These are our HS grads.

Freakshow, I applaud your efforts to contract your line and target your
customer. Plant and equipment is not the big expense nor is your Pb.
Employee costs are the killer! That is where you're saving the big bucks.
The volatility in copper is probably a big problem for Sierra etc. but I'll bet
employee costs, driven by lawyers and politicians, are keeping them awake
at night.

I believe that if you charge an honest price for your skills, your customers
will continue buying your bullets. Good luck to you Freakshow. Without the
small business folks in the firearms industry our common passtime would be
much less rewarding.

[RustyFN]

The fact they could pay that off that quickly means absolutely nothing. Im betting they could pay off the ham sandwich they bought for a driver pretty darn quickly as well. I am guessing they have other expenses than just the pipeline......
It means something to me. To me it means that they are gouging us being able to pay something that expensive off that fast instead of it taking a year or two or longer. I could pay for the drivers ham sandwich, thats not the problem.
Rusty

[strat81]

The oil companies are not gouging. Their profits are high because they sell in volume.

Name three products as ubiquitous as oil. Fuel, wax, solvents, plastics... all of it comes from oil. Fuel is one thing that practically everyone in the country consumes in one form or another.

When you sell a gazillion units of something, you're gonna make some high profits. Put it into perspective... look at the billions of dollars in profits the oil companies make. Now divide that by the 300-odd million people in this country alone (the number should be higher since those are GLOBAL profits being reported). The number works out to a few hundred dollars per person that the oil companies earn in profit. I can live with that because oil makes my life better.

There's a name for being angry at people who make "too much" money: Communism.

[Eagle103]

I find it highly ironic how certain people in Congress parade the oil execs before them as if it's the Nuremburg trials again when THEY are the ones who have created the high prices through all the restrictions on new drilling and refining. If there is a real concern about gouging our some sort of price fixing they should be looking at doing as Teddy Roosevelt did and break them up again to increase competition. I would love to be in an industry that the government essentially puts a cap on the production while demand steadily increases. This whole scenario really isn't all that complicated.

[38 Super Auto]

Quote:
If we would cut out ALL unnecessary driving for a month it would make them drop the price, but we won't, will we.

Negative, it will make them cut production and the price will remain at equilibrium. OPEC can alter supply to keep the price of gas anywhere they want it, regardless of demand.

The one move that we can make as a country is to produce our own energy products from crude and oil shale and fission breeder reactors. OPEC may cut production, but we will be in a better strategic position. Remember the countries in the middle east need a certain amount of revenue to run their theocracies. They wont' simply continue to cut production to facilitate price support - they have to pump some certain quantity of oil everyday to run their country and continue to subsidize worldwide terrorism.

If the US and/or other large countries consumed far less or produced far more energy, it would have similar effects. Increasing energy production is a step the US needs to take to neuter the political power of some of these countries whose primary "product" is crude oil.

[RustyFN]

The oil companies are not gouging. Their profits are high because they sell in volume.
OK let me ask it this way. Do you not think they could lower the price and still make a very nice profit and save the consumer some money in the meantime? I guess that's the point I was trying to make. Can they not be happy with one billion dollars profit instead of one hundred billion dollars profit?
Rusty

[TAB]

Droping the price of oil would do very little to the cost of gas.

majority of the cost is do to refining, storing and transporting.

[Dravur]

It means something to me. To me it means that they are gouging us being able to pay something that expensive off that fast instead of it taking a year or two or longer

wow.... I am at a loss. Logic doesn't seem to work here.

let's see, 25 weeks at 5 million per week is $125m. Now, that is your labor stat. let's forego any other stat like material costs, profit, etc.

oh, by the way, the Pipeline actually cost roughly $8b
When it was completed, the pipeline carried roughly 2m barrels/day
Lately, it is around 1m barrels/day...

So, by your estimates, in the mid 80s, the price of oil was roughly $20/barrel and the daily flow was just about 2m barrels/day.

so, 22m barrels flowed in that 11 day period. The value of the oil was approx $440m. Now, this figure does not include ANY direct or indirect costs.

So, yes, it is possible to cover the costs associated with the electrical work done in 11 days.... All you have to do is suspend laws governing market conditions and costs associated with bringing fuel to the market. But it certainly is possible they had 0 expenses during those 11 days. Magic is fun.

[Dravur]

Droping the price of oil would do very little to the cost of gas.

WHAT?

June 9, 2008, the breakdown on a gallon of gas was as follows....at $4.43/gallon
$3.20 DIRECT cost of the oil....
$.71 refining costs...
$.01 State Underground Storage fee
$.33 State and local taxes <variable by state>
$.18 State excise tax
$.18 Fed Excise tax

The profit, marketing costs, distribution costs are built into the refining costs. This is for a branded gallon in the state of CA.

Unbranded, the marketing, distribution and profit come to $.19 per gallon...

The direct cost of the oil is $3.20 a gallon. So, yep, the biggest hunk of any gallon of gas is the direct mats.

So, dropping the price of oil would do something HUGE to the price of oil.

[strat81]

OK let me ask it this way. Do you not think they could lower the price and still make a very nice profit and save the consumer some money in the meantime? I guess that's the point I was trying to make. Can they not be happy with one billion dollars profit instead of one hundred billion dollars profit?
Rusty
They could, but then they'd be doing a disservice to their shareholders. If you have money in a 401k, IRA, mutual fund, etc. chances are you indirectly own shares of an oil company. As an investor, do you want the managers of the firm you own to earn as much as possible or as little as possible? How would you feel if your boss said, "Rusty, we were going to give you a 15% raise but others feel that's too much. You earned the 15% but we're going to only give you 5% so it's more reasonable."

Would the profits be as obscene to you if ExxonMobil was 10 small companies instead of 1 big one?

The problem with cutting their profits is that that means there is a lower return for shareholders. Investors are concerned with return expressed as a percentage. When returns go down, investors pull their money and put it elsewhere. Why should they earn 5% at a neutered oil company when they can earn 10% at a pharmaceutical company?

The oil industry is no worse than other sectors of the economy such as finance, banking, and pharmaceuticals.

Windfall profits are a slippery slope. If oil companies can make too much money, can't phone companies? Drug companies? Automobile companies?

If the government establishes a threshold and says "if you make more than $9 billion dollars, we're going to keep the rest" what do you think will happen? The company will work it's hardest to make $8.9 billion dollars and work no harder. It leads to inefficient uses of resources, layoffs, plant closures, lack of R&D, etc.

[scrat]

OK Guys all im going to say is one more thing then im done with this thread.


1. We all know a lot more collectivley on reloading than we do about oil. Even with the ones that believe they know about oil and economics. Together we know a lot more about reloading than we do about oil and economics.

2. Im not too sure who said it. However i believe. 100 years ago people in the middle east lived in tents, were covered from head to foot because of the sand and desert climate. They rode on camels, always looked for water, and had many wars against each other. Well I believe a hundred years from now they will be in the same exact shape. As it seems as though they have learned nothing from getting prosperous from oil. However only time will tell.

Now lets stick to Reloading.

[RustyFN]

Magic is fun.
I wish I had that kind of magic.:D

How would you feel if your boss said, "Rusty, we were going to give you a 15% raise but others feel that's too much. You earned the 15% but we're going to only give you 5% so it's more reasonable."
That's exactly what's happening. I canceled vacations, rescheduled vacations, went in early, stayed late and worked a butt load of overtime to make sure the projects that had to be done got done on time. Now me and the guys I work with are getting low evals with not much of a raise because the company needs to save money because of the economy. I won't make that mistake again. Well the stock is going back up so at least the shareholders will make money even if the employees can't. I know where you guys are coming from, it just makes me wonder with everything going up around us when will wages go up.
Look around at everything going on. I live in a small town. I was talking to a guy that repo's cars. He was telling me he repo's 300 car's a month. I would hate to see what the number is in a big city. Look at all of the people that are having their homes foreclosed on, it is getting so bad the gov is looking to step in and try to stop it. The little guy can only take so much of a hit before everything falls apart.
Rusty

[JGAreddog]

A point i don't really see anyone making is: Who says oil actually costs what they say it costs? It is just very hard to believe that an arab in the desert could just simply say "Oh i think i am going to charge everyone more money now" The oil doesn't cost any more to pump today as it did 20 years ago. Its in the same spot, there is probably the same idiot standing there watching the pump do its thing. Yes, they may now charge our government more but you can bet your lucky stars our government is making a huge chunk of price spikes per barrel.

[4v50 Gary]

This has gone way off topic. We talk guns, bullets and ammo, not gasoline & oil.