[dgray64]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k241/dgray64/100_2553.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k241/dgray64/100_2554.jpg

Look closely. This is a .40 S&W round. The case looked good when I reloaded it. The problem is that I was using a new-to-me powder dispenser and the lock screw either worked loose or I didn't tighten it (I think it was the last).

I was loading 170 gr lead wad cutters with 4.5 gr of Tight Group. It was a hot day, but I had a fan going and didn't recheck my powder weight as I usually do every 10 to 20 rounds. After about 250 rounds, I noticed that the case seemed to have more powder in it than I started with. I checked the weight and found that I had loaded many with at least 5.4 gr of powder.

I tried 5 each in two of my pistols and though the recoil was stout, there were no mishaps. The next day after thinking about the situation for a long time and looking at the recommended recipes where my 4.5 was max, I decided to fire a few more and then decide what to do.

I fired off 4 and got splattered in the face with debris. The XD40 locked open on a new round trying to enter the barrel. I looked and found the outside of the casing in the barrel. I checked the gun carefully after removing the case and found no damage, Thank God.

After unloading 250 rounds, I fired off the 7 rounds that wouldn't give up their bullets in my CZ40B without mishap. Then I fired off 10 of the reworked rounds with good accuracy and low recoil. While picking up my brass, I ran across the head of the cartridge. I was really lucky or blessed.

When I shot off the rest of the heavy rounds, I used goggles over my glasses for extra protection.

The lessen...? Know your equipment. Check your equipment. Check your powder charge regularly while reloading. It could happen to you!

Dave :confused::scrutiny::banghead:

[scrat]

Wow thats pretty scary

[BullsEye10x]

Out of curiosity, which powder measure were you using?

[Mike 56]

I am glad you are ok. A story like this is a good reminder. We can all get a little careless once in a while.

Mike

[Griz44]

The price for perfection is unabridged diligence. Now we understand why the radio, tv, beer should be left behind while we ply our trade....

[strat81]

was loading 170 gr lead wad cutters with 4.5 gr of Tight Group. It was a hot day, but I had a fan going and didn't recheck my powder weight as I usually do every 10 to 20 rounds. After about 250 rounds, I noticed that the case seemed to have more powder in it than I started with. I checked the weight and found that I had loaded many with at least 5.4 gr of powder.

I tried 5 each in two of my pistols and though the recoil was stout, there were no mishaps. The next day after thinking about the situation for a long time and looking at the recommended recipes where my 4.5 was max, I decided to fire a few more and then decide what to do.

So you knew they were significantly over max but you shot them anyway???

Well, at least you're not hurt. I'm not sure if you're religious, but you have a guardian angel.

[kingpin008]

I was thinking that too. I don't really know much about reloading yet, but 5.4 seems like quite a jump from 4.5, especially when 4.5 is the MAX load.

And even more than that, you kept shooting after you were taking debris and blowback in the face?

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I would hate to share a range with you. Dodging shrapnel from KB'd guns isn't fun.

[FlyinBryan]

i loaded 200 45acp rounds the other day and had a few primer misfeeds during the session.

after thinking about it for a while i wondered if it were possible that i raised the ram more than once on any rounds while fighting with the primer feeder.

i then posted a thread titled "double charge in a kimber 1911" just to get an idea of what the outcome could be if my primer feeder did in fact cause me to double charge one of them.

i pulled all 200 and found them to be ok.

i am now quite a bit more aware of the ram movements and charge levels in each round.

glad you didnt lose any digits or eyeballs or worse.

[dougader]

No way I'd knowingly fire a .9 grain overload in 40 S&W with a fast powder like TiteGroup. Glad you're ok. I've seen blown cases before but never one where the entire base of the case was separated like that.

[SASS#23149]

No way I'd knowingly fire a .9 grain overload in 40 S&W with a fast powder like TiteGroup

+1
Sounds like an invitation to disaster to do this.imho

[wuchak]

It's mistake likes this that bullet pullers were made for. Start pulling and checking from the last one loaded until you get to good ones. After 2 or 3 good ones in a row you can stop pulling.

I don't think your decision to shoot more of them and then decide was a very good one. Fortunately you are ok but I would rethink that strategy next time. The "jump then look" method is not a good one when it comes to anything firearms related.

[dgray64]

And even more than that, you kept shooting after you were taking debris and blowback in the face?

To set the record straight, the 7 or eight that I shot after the exploding bullet was done after I had pulled all the bullets and reloaded them. This group wouldn't give up the bullet because they were steel cased. That was the reason I chose to shoot them. The steel case is stronger than the brass case.

As far as the shooting of a few after I had found that they had excess powder, that's part experimentation and part the reliability of the dispenser. My old Lee dispenser always leaked powder and never threw two charges of the same weight which is why I went to the Lyman dispenser. It's totally uniform and doesn't leak....but you have to remember to tighten the set screw. My fault.

I know all this is food for thought and ridicule, and I knew it would be the case when I put up the new thread, but you guys are shooters and you need to be safe and you need to learn from incidents like this one. I've been shooting a long time and loading for a little over a year and have enjoyed it. Have I made mistakes? Sure. Will I quit? No way. I will just try harder.

The worst thing about the hot charge was using a lead bullet since I got some leading in my barrel that I had to work hard to remove.

Dave :eek:

[Doug b]

dgray64 fans blowing across a scale will give phoney readings.

[wuchak]

The steel case is stronger than the brass case.

You mean nickel plated right? The nickel plated isn't any stronger. It's just slicker and some feel it feeds more reliably.

The only steel cases I've seen are not reloadable with home equipment. I've never seen steel cases for ammo directly available to the handloader for this reason. There is no difference in strength between the two. If they made the steel as thick as the brass the steel would be much stronger but the steel cases are noticeably thinner and are very easily crushable because they are so thin.

[seektruth]

Wow. Overcharged and shot 'em anyway? I hope you'll never do that again.

[seektruth]

wuchak- I don't know if there are reloadable steel cases in .40sw, but there are some in 45acp. Wolf 45acp is boxer primed. I've reloaded them after inspecting carefully. I haven't tried more than on reload, but I know that people have.

[dgray64]

"[You mean nickel plated right? The nickel plated isn't any stronger. It's just slicker and some feel it feeds more reliably.

The only steel cases I've seen are not reloadable with home equipment. I've never seen steel cases for ammo directly available to the handloader for this reason. There is no difference in strength between the two. If they made the steel as thick as the brass the steel would be much stronger but the steel cases are noticeably thinner and are very easily crushable because they are so thin.]"

These were steel, Wolf casings. I really like Wolf ammo. They say that the steel casing is hard on the ejector, but I haven't had any problems and the cases reload well.

Dave :)

[rcmodel]

What pictures?

rcmodel

[strat81]

I don't think anyone is trying to ridicule you, dgray. However, your post is full of instances of bad technique.

but I had a fan going
As mentioned, this can distort the readings on your scale.

didn't recheck my powder weight as I usually do every 10 to 20 rounds.
This is a major issue, especially with new equipment (your new measure) or equipment that was recently adjusted (changing disks, rotors, etc.).

I checked the weight and found that I had loaded many with at least 5.4 gr of powder.

I tried 5 each in two of my pistols and though the recoil was stout
Firing ammo that is known to contain overcharges is Very Bad and downright reckless.

The next day after thinking about the situation for a long time and looking at the recommended recipes where my 4.5 was max, I decided to fire a few more and then decide what to do.
So you went and fired some more overcharged cases, even after experiencing "stout" recoil. Good thing the stout recoil did not send the slide into your face.

I fired off 4 and got splattered in the face with debris. The XD40 locked open on a new round trying to enter the barrel. I looked and found the outside of the casing in the barrel.
Finally, some physical proof of problems.

I checked the gun carefully after removing the case and found no damage, Thank God.
Thank god the gun was okay, or thank god you still had 10 fingers and both eyes with no horrible burn marks on your face?

After unloading 250 rounds, I fired off the 7 rounds that wouldn't give up their bullets in my CZ40B without mishap.
Ack! Firing MORE of these cases???? Craziness! How much did those 7 rounds cost you? Let's say you loaded them with some expensive Barnes TSX bullets and VV powder and they are $1.00 each. So you risked disfigurement and a trip to the ER for $7.00. My co-pay for a doctor's visit is more than that, forget about ER and surgeon's bills.

When I shot off the rest of the heavy rounds, I used goggles over my glasses for extra protection.
What about your hands? Your face? Other people around you?

These were steel, Wolf casings. I really like Wolf ammo. They say that the steel casing is hard on the ejector, but I haven't had any problems and the cases reload well.
You were loading cases that no reputable source has ever deemed to be safe for reloading? Ouch.

You are lucky.

Please, step back from the reloading bench and re-examine your procedures and mindset. You not only risked your gun, but your hands, eyes, face, and the safety of others. Had this been a rifle cartridge that had an extra ~20% of powder in it, it could have been catastrophic.

And for what? A few cents per case (brass vs. steel) and a few more cents for bullets and powder?

I know this all sounds harsh and it is not my intent to offend you. However, new reloaders need to be aware of the many mistakes that were made and the glaringly unsafe practices you employed.

[DEDON45]

DUDE! I wouldn't have shot those things.... in a small case, with fast powder like that, almost a grain over... KB waitin' to happen... or at least a significant shortening of the gun's life. I've seen a BHP in .40 blown up in a similar situation... somehow it didn't trash the frame or barrel, or slide, but the internal just fell out of it. The guy had it Magnafluxed and Browning put it back together for no (or very little) charge... he did tell 'em how it happened too.

Don't get me wrong, if it was .9 over in say, a .44 Mag load that's right at max, and I had a sturdy revolver like a Ruger or Freedom Arms, I'd probably touch one off... but that's a whole different animal. Well, maybe I would... or maybe I'd be a fraidy cat and be pulling those bullets!

[Dirtypacman]

All I can say is please head the advice of this board. You were lucky you did not have a different outcome.

I loaded up 60 rounds of 38 and found I had used the wrong recipe. I am pretty sure I could have been ok shooting them but why the hell do I want to risk it. I pulled apart every one of them and redid them. Sure it ate up some extra time that could have been used at my bench or at the range but better safe then sorry.

[Griz44]

I think you need a new hobby. Say - whiffle ball or badmitton - something you cannot hurt yourself doing.

[Navy joe]

There's really not much High Road to say about this one. You know you have bad loads, pull the trigger anyway, one blows up, you pull the trigger some more because you can't get the bullets out of crap cases any sane person wouldn't have reloaded in the first place. I guess your face is less important than 7-8 crappy cases, a few lead bullets and 40 some grains of powder? Your decision making processes make it doubtful you should be around guns or reloading.

[EddieCoyle]

You shouldn't be reloading steel. You shouldn't shoot rounds that are loaded 20% over max.

You really need to read a book about this stuff.

This, of course, is assuming you're not a troll who's just posting here to get a rise out of people.

[fireflyfather]

Many people have experimented with reloading steel cases and reported back here. I have never done it myself, but it can certainly be done. The problems with reloading steel are twofold: 1. It's harder on your dies and will wear them out more quickly. 2. Steel cases are more prone to complete failure without warning than brass ones (Brass will show signs of metal fatigue/wear sooner).

There's nothing catastrophic about reloading steel cased ammo once or twice, provided you aren't loading 20% over max loads. I certainly wouldn't want to load a high pressure round like the .40 in a heavily reloaded steel case.

The problem here wasn't the cases. It was the severe overcharge and a nonchalant attitude about safety. The proper procedure for testing charges above max is to place the firearm in a fixed mount or in an old tire (provided it has a stock), and use a string to pull the trigger...FROM BEHIND COVER. Nobody else should be on the firing line either. Treat it like you would a small grenade, because that's what it potentially could be. Also, don't count on the gun ever being the same again, either.

[evan price]

I load 180 lead TC with 4.7 of Titegroup. That's totally max and actually above because it's lead.

5.4 of TG? Eeep...!

After all is said and done- if the XD had Kaboomed, even a little, what would you be feeling right now? Spend $479 to find out your reloads were a series of process mistakes? Would reloading still be a bargain?

What if it was worse, and people call you "Lefty One-Eye" for the rest of your life?

[Chuck Dye]

...shot off the rest of the heavy rounds...

*sigh*

I am so glad I shoot on my own property and no strangers set up next to me.

[Afy]

Thank god you're safe.

This is why I weigh every charge in every case.

[alsaqr]

First three laws of reloadng:

1. Attention to detail.
2. See #1
3. Do not fire your obvious mistakes.

[Okiecruffler]

Cheese and Rice, I'm dumbfounded after reading that. I've been known to load into the red and creep abit from there, but to pull the trigger on loads that I know to be grossly over charged? I guess I'm more attached to my fingers than some people.

[cpttango30]

Now explaine to me why you did this? You make a mistake that is ok with me. You then fail to pull all the bullets and start over fixing your mistake. You then knowingly go out and shoot your over max loads.

What on gods green earth were you thinking. "Well I got money if my gun blows my stinking hand off." "Been wanting a nose job I guess an SD-40 is the same as a plastic surgon."

I am not going to say what I want to say because I am sure it would get me axed from The High Road.

[strat81]

Fireflyfather, please point me to a reputable source that says reloading steel cases is perfectly fine.

[TexasSkyhawk]

To set the record straight, the 7 or eight that I shot after the exploding bullet was done after I had pulled all the bullets and reloaded them. This group wouldn't give up the bullet because they were steel cased. That was the reason I chose to shoot them. The steel case is stronger than the brass case.

1. I keep a junk bin on my reloading bench precisely for situations like yours. Every reloader has at one time or another produced unfirable, unsafe ammo. If I can pull the bullets and salvage some components, I'll do it. Otherwise, I trash the bullets. I sure as hell don't fire them.

Since when is a five-cent round worth the chance of blowing up a five-hundred dollar gun, or causing a five-hundred-thousand dollar injury/disability?

Common sense. Do not get into such a penny-pinching mindset with reloading that it causes you to make poor decisions.

2. Steel is not stronger than brass in the capacity in which you describe. In fact, when steel "goes" it goes without warning and can wreak hell on your firearm. There's a reason everyone who knows, uses brass.

As far as the shooting of a few after I had found that they had excess powder, that's part experimentation and part the reliability of the dispenser. My old Lee dispenser always leaked powder and never threw two charges of the same weight which is why I went to the Lyman dispenser. It's totally uniform and doesn't leak....but you have to remember to tighten the set screw. My fault.

I think you need to slow down and start reading your instruction manuals. I've used a Lee powder measure for over 20 years. I "broke it in" per the instructions. To date, it throws the most consistently of any powder measure I have or have had including Dillon and Hornady. It's closest competition is its backup from RCBS.

I know scores of other reloaders with exact same results, because they read, study and learn thoroughly before moving ahead.

I know all this is food for thought and ridicule, and I knew it would be the case when I put up the new thread, but you guys are shooters and you need to be safe and you need to learn from incidents like this one. I've been shooting a long time and loading for a little over a year and have enjoyed it. Have I made mistakes? Sure. Will I quit? No way. I will just try harder.

I'm sorry, but you didn't make a mistake. You did this deliberately. You even gave yourself a day to think about it and then went ahead and did it anyway.

I know of know reloading manual that tells you it's okay to test-fire any round loaded 20% over absolute max. None. In fact, every manual I own, have owned and have read says just the opposite.

You're lucky. Damned lucky. I saw a guy who'd just started reloading (40 S&W) blow up his gun with his hand in it. He lost all function in two of his fingers and his hand lost more than 60% of function. The gun was totalled. That's what happens when you pack 8.5 grains of AA#2 into a 40S&W case with a 170gr JHP, only you have a squib load ahead of it and fire a way overcharged round into a plugged barrel.

He didn't make a mistake. He wantonly disregarded available, pertinent information. He paid the price.

Jeff

[drgrenthum]

dgray
i for one am happy that you posted this. As been pointed out you made alot of mistakes and there was alot of negligence but you did as you intended and opened alot of peoples eyes here. I have been tempted alot of times to skip rechecking the powder thrower, this is a nice reminder that is not such a good idea.

I am happy you are okay and i am sure you have learned your lesson.

[fireflyfather]

Fireflyfather, please point me to a reputable source that says reloading steel cases is perfectly fine.

Richard Lee. Page 38 of Modern Reloading, second edition. I think he might know a *little* about it. If you want more sources, go on over to castboolits.gunloads.com and ask around, or do a search here. Plenty of people have safely reloaded steel cased ammo. It's not the most desirable stuff, but it certainly can be done. The only times it is really practical is when you don't have a source of brass casings. As long as you don't use them too often or with above max loads, it should be fine to reload steel. Do your own homework in the future, eh?

Aluminum cases are not reloadable. Maybe that's what you are thinking.

--Self-edited to remove non-high road response.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yep, a future Darwin Award candidate...figured out that he overloaded cartridges by 20% over max and went ahead and fired a few, then tried some more the next day after he didn't die or get hurt on day 1. What? I guess the extra eye protection made it okay....or not.

Why don't people understand what "max. loading" means in the reloading manuals?

[Halo]

Before I ever got into reloading, I had a college roommate who told me all about his reloading setup back home, and that's what really piqued my interest in reloading. He said he knew a guy who reloaded for his 300 WinMag, and "measured" the charge by using the empty case to scoop powder out of the container. Somehow he managed to get away with this practice for a while, but one day that guy touched off a round and it sent the bolt back into his face and caused a very serious injury with permanent damage. Now I don't know if that story is true, partially true, or total BS, but it certainly seems possible and it stuck with me.

If you have a cavalier attitude toward something potentially dangerous, it's not a question of if, but a question of when it will bite you in the rear.

[Shoney]

Well, I think Mr. Gray should take his lemmons and make lemmonaid. Load up a bunch of those over-max cartridges, and market them as a "Surefire Cure For Constipation".

[strat81]

Richard Lee. Page 38 of Modern Reloading, second edition. I think he might know a *little* about it. If you want more sources, go on over to castboolits.gunloads.com and ask around, or do a search here. Plenty of people have safely reloaded steel cased ammo. It's not the most desirable stuff, but it certainly can be done. The only times it is really practical is when you don't have a source of brass casings. As long as you don't use them too often or with above max loads, it should be fine to reload steel. Do your own homework in the future, eh?

Aluminum cases are not reloadable. Maybe that's what you are thinking.

--Self-edited to remove non-high road response.
Not sure why you got flippant when all I asked for was proof.

I checked my Lee Manual and you are right, he mentions it. My Hornady manual does not. Considering that Hornady manufactures steel-cased practice ammo for LE, this would be a glaring omission on their part.

Can anyone with Speer, Lyman, or Sierra manuals see what they say?

Just because it CAN be done does not mean it SHOULD be done. Plenty of folks load over max without problems but that still does not make it a good practice. There are also the issues of increased die wear and case brittleness with steel cases.

Your other sources are not credible. If you want to use Internet forums as a source, there are probably 20 posts saying not to reload steel cases compared to those that say it's okay.

[DragonFire]

One of the gun magazines last month had an article about reloading steel cases. I'd have to go home a search my shelf to tell you which one though.

The article basically said what's been said here: don't reload them too many time, use moderate loads, and check the cases carefully.

Tone of the article was that it was safe to do, but there was no reason to do it vs using brass.


I don't ever remember reading any reloading manual saying NOT to use steel cases. Considering all the warnings in them, I'd would think they would say if it was even remotely dangerous.

[fireflyfather]

Not sure why you got flippant when all I asked for was proof.

I checked my Lee Manual and you are right, he mentions it. My Hornady manual does not. Considering that Hornady manufactures steel-cased practice ammo for LE, this would be a glaring omission on their part.

Can anyone with Speer, Lyman, or Sierra manuals see what they say?

Just because it CAN be done does not mean it SHOULD be done. Plenty of folks load over max without problems but that still does not make it a good practice. There are also the issues of increased die wear and case brittleness with steel cases.

Your other sources are not credible. If you want to use Internet forums as a source, there are probably 20 posts saying not to reload steel cases compared to those that say it's okay.

*sigh*

Look, you were spreading misinformation, intentionally or not. You seem to have your head screwed on straight, and I am not trying to start a flamethrower war here.

You were loading cases that no reputable source has ever deemed to be safe for reloading? Ouch.

(Emphasis mine)

You are wrong. Reputable sources have deemed them safe, within reasonable limitations. Other sources disagree, but your statement was hyperbole at best, and ignorant at worst.

There are probably many "sources", considering that reloading steel cases is nothing new. People have probably been doing it for at least a generation. I pointed you towards one that was the easiest for me to locate. If you want to claim that Richard Lee is not a reputable source of information on reloading, I cannot help you. I can't tell if that was what you meant in your last post. The reason most of those other manuals probably don't talk about it is because it is not a common, nor economical practice. As I said, it's really only practical in cases where you don't have access to brass cases, or you are involved in a shooting war between third world countries who are using boatloads of surplus boxer primed ammo.

With five minutes research, I found something in one of, if not, the most widely read reloading manuals there is to support my claim. Two minutes with google found an issue in shooting times (May of 2008) on the subject. The information is there, you just have to look.

As for the problems with loading steel cases, I'm pretty sure I mentioned them before you did. I don't think anyone here is claiming that steel cases are an ideal component for reloading, but there's certainly nothing intrinsically dangerous about reloading them, so long as you follow the standard safety precautions for loading that type of case (Please note that the words "perfectly fine" are yours, not mine.) Don't use it more than once or twice, lube the case (even in a carbide die), and don't load them hot. I realize that not everyone believes that reloading steel cases is safe, but by that logic, none of us should reload at all, since reputable sources (gun manufacturers) tell us not to use reloaded ammunition. The reason most of them believe that steel cases are unsafe is that people load them too hot and too often. In other words, they don't follow standard safety precautions.

As for internet forums being reputable sources, generally they are not. However, they are excellent places for doing searches to find primary sources of information which ARE. Anyone who doesn't know that probably shouldn't be reading reloading forums anyway (and this is not a personal dig at you: you obviously already knew this).

Having said that, castboolits.gunloads.com is probably the most comprehensive resource for reloading, and particularly bullet casting & swaging anywhere. Almost everyone there is much more involved in the reloading hobby/business than folks in this forum, by the very nature of bullet casting. Many of the people there are commercial casters & reloaders. They can certainly point you in the direction of the definitive primary sources on most reloading subjects.

Just because it CAN be done does not mean it SHOULD be done. Plenty of folks load over max without problems but that still does not make it a good practice. There are also the issues of increased die wear and case brittleness with steel cases.

The difference is that pretty much everyone agrees that loading over max is (with certain exceptions) unwise. +p loads, firearms designed for higher pressures, and experimental testing with proper safeguards (safety barrier & trigger string) notwithstanding, most folks know this isn't a good idea, and ALL the loading manuals warn against it. Reloading steel does not have even REMOTELY the same amount of safety warnings against it, and most of those warnings are of the "internet forum" variety, rather than published industry writings.

The original post on this thread showed cases that blew because of massive overcharges. Had those cases been charged correctly, they would not have blown up. Where you really get into problems with steel cases are in the realm of bottlenecked rifle cartridges (pain in the butt), metal fatigue from overuse, and wearing out dies. It's really just that simple. If you want more sources, it's out there. Go do some research.

[mswestfall]

The pictures work fine for me RC...

[lgbloader]

Dave,

You kinda asked for the public flogging, Mate. You know, there are a few of the THR crew that live for this. They can get down right mean, nasty and rude. But I have to admit that they are absolutely right this time. Your absolute FUBAR reasoning could have cost you your life or the life of some other person out there enjoying his life and his shooting. Imagine... How could you possibly ever pay that back??? It sucks to say this but I think that it is time for some serious soul searching to see if you are really where you need to be upstairs in countinueing this hobby/way of life.

I mean seriously, Mate, What in the f**k were you thinking???

[evan price]

Wasn't there somebody who was fairly well known in the military-surplus importing and resale industry who put a milsurp rifle bolt through his forehead and killed him not all that long ago?

[fireflyfather]

Dave,

You kinda asked for the public flogging, Mate. You know, there are a few of the THR crew that live for this. They can get down right mean, nasty and rude. But I have to admit that they are absolutely right this time. Your absolute FUBAR reasoning could have cost you your life or the life of some other person out there enjoying his life and his shooting. Imagine... How could you possibly ever pay that back??? It sucks to say this but I think that it is time for some serious soul searching to see if you are really where you need to be upstairs in countinueing this hobby/way of life.

I mean seriously, Mate, What in the f**k were you thinking???

I give the guy some credit: He knew the kind of public burning he was getting himself into when he posted this here, and he posted it anyway. That takes guts. I hope he learned something from this, any maybe someone else does too. Still, a 20% overcharge? Egads.

[strat81]

I'm not spreading misinformation, not matter what your anonymous Internet poster friends say. The cast boolits sight might be somewhat reliable when it comes to cast bullets and maybe commercial reloading. How many commercial reloaders are using steel cases? Georgia Arms doesn't. Black Hills doesn't. None of the gun show sellers around here sell steel-case reloads either.

How come the Lee manual doesn't all of the caveats for loading steels cases? At best, steel appears to be for experienced reloaders only. At worst, they're not reloadable.

I e-mailed Speer about this, here is their response:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff93/stratocaster81/speer.jpg

And from Wolf:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff93/stratocaster81/wolf.jpg

[drgrenthum]

Strat those emails dont necessarily prove anything.

If i was Wolf of course i would tell you NO. First, for liability reasons. If they told you yes and one blew up in your face then you may have a case for litigation. Second, wolf doesnt want you reloading they want you buying more of there ammo.

As for speer she freely admitted you could reload, only that is is not generally done. The reasoning she sited was it was harder to resize. For any avid reloader while it may be PITA its doable.

Her "research" was probably a google search because as she mentioned they dont make steel cases.

[Eljay]

Evan, His name was Glen DeRuter he worked for SARCO in NJ. the rifle was an early Lee Mil-surp I think a Lee Navy, late 1800s early 19s. Not with reloads, the bolt blew back into his forhead, Killed on the spot. A good friend was two benches down at Easton F+G in PA. A very nice Guy R.I.P. Glen

[FlyinBryan]

i would never want to try to reload with steel cases.

i wouldnt want to do that to my dies.


if wolf says they are not reloadable, they are not reloadable.

there is more than one way to look at it as far as claims of wanting you to buy more ammo.

if the guy wanted to sell the first batch to start with, he wouldnt say these have limits that others dont.

at some point you have to take folks at face value.

if wolf says they arent capable, im going to say ok. not think of reasons why he would say it.

if you call a company that uses brass, they will say it can be rreloaded, despite the fact that it means you will buy less from them.

[fireflyfather]

Others beat me to it.

Look, this is probably the worst thread jack I've been a party to in a while. The bottom line is that the OP blew up those cases because he used too much powder, not because they were steel.

The speer lady admitted that it could be done, but generally isn't, because they are HARD TO SIZE. We've already covered that. Wolf says that because if they say they are reloadable, a bunch of people with non-carbide dies are going to be pissed when they screw up their dies, and reloadability just isn't a selling point for steel cases, since you can generally use them only once or twice instead of the 5+ (even up to 20!) times for most brass.

Not much more to be said here. Neither of us is going to convince the other. It can be done, though it generally isn't, because it isn't cost-effective or easy. Your original point was that "no reputable source has ever deemed to be safe for reloading". That isn't true. You can argue that more, or even most sources don't deem them safe, or that it isn't a "good practice", but my original point stands. You were in error, and spreading misinformation. If anyone doubts this, they can do their own research, since it is fairly easy to find. I'm not going to write a doctoral thesis on the subject. I found you two sources, and pointed you to a place where you could find more if you were willing to look and then vet them the way a source should be vetted (examination of individual reputation, credentials and neutral status), not through a, non-engineer, PR/customer service flack sending emails out to who knows who.

Unless you can explain in a technical sense why those cases are unsafe to reload (other than the caveats I and others have already mentioned), all you are doing is relying on authority to argue for you. What is your rationale? Case failure? Damage to internal working of the firearm? Head Separation? Breaking rims on extraction? Primer pocket fit? I doubt this is an issue unless you reload the case too many times or with heavy or over charges.

Egads, seems I've written another essay....*sigh*. I guess I should just quit this thread. The info is now there for others to read if they want/need to know.

[FlyinBryan]

yes, we are relying on authority to argue for us while you on the other hand are endorsing the statements of a ammo reloading authrority,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wait, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,did i just say that?

nevermind

[Galil5.56]

He said he knew a guy who reloaded for his 300 WinMag, and "measured" the charge by using the empty case to scoop powder out of the container. Somehow he managed to get away with this practice for a while, but one day that guy touched off a round and it sent the bolt back into his face and caused a very serious injury with permanent damage. Now I don't know if that story is true, partially true, or total BS, but it certainly seems possible and it stuck with me.


Note, what I am about to write is not recommended, yet is true in certain instances and combinations:

Without knowing the propellant/bullet used, it is impossible to say definitively if he is wrong or right, but I am willing to bet you could scoop a 300 Win Mag case full of 5010, seat a 110 grain bullet and still be way under max SAAMI pressures.

I could cite a bunch of loads using smallish cases, very light bullets, and extremely slow propellants that would probably be bloopers. Now swing around 180 degrees and scoop a case full of Bullseye, add a 200 grain bullet and you now have a bomb. Lots of "Rifle powders" on the fast end would do the same, just not as spectacularly. Ever load Unique in 9mm trying to achieve safe, book max service loads... It comes very close to filling the case with a normal powder drop.

One specification I seem to recall about Trail Boss is the calibers they have data for, if the case is completely filled and a bullet seated, the resulting load will not exceed proof pressures for the cartridge.

[Navy joe]

Then there's the old chesnut about the load book saying 27 grains so the fella counted out 27 grains of powder, put them in the case and was sorely disappointed. I always thought that a fable, but the logic is in no way inferior to that demonstrated in the OP, so maybe it happened. ;)

[strat81]

Yes, your sources are better than mine. It is completely unreasonable to assume that ATK/Speer would have an educated person answering e-mails.

Even if Richard Lee is right, his utterances of steel being reloadable are irresponsible because no mention is made of the special circumstances surrounding steel cases (which we all seem to agree on).

Asking me to prove why they are unsafe is as ridiculous as me asking you to prove why they are safe.

Hopefully the newbies reading all of this will make the smart choice.

[Matt-J2]

Navy Joe, when I first became interested in reloading a few years ago, I actually believed 27gr. meant 27 physical grains of powder. I had been shooting for a bit but I didn't pay attention to bullet weights or any such thing, I just made sure it was the proper ammo type and went on to fire it.
When I did read the bullet weight on the box, I actually thought it was the powder charge.
I've learned a bit since then, thankfully. :)

[fireflyfather]

Even if Richard Lee is right, his utterances of steel being reloadable are irresponsible because no mention is made of the special circumstances surrounding steel cases (which we all seem to agree on).

That is certainly an arguable point. I don't know if it rises to the level of irresponsible, but I certainly feel that he probably should mention those caveats, in the interest in safety. The only defense that immediately comes to mind is limited space/time to fully cover the issue (though two sentences worth of warnings shouldn't take up much time or space), and the information being of limited use to most reloaders.

Yes, your sources are better than mine. It is completely unreasonable to assume that ATK/Speer would have an educated person answering e-mails.

Sarcasm isn't necessary. The Speer lady pretty much admitted that she wasn't really an expert on your question, or at least, her response reads that way to some. I think a published reloading manual from a reloading tool maker (not his employee) is a better source than an email from someone who is working customer service with unknown qualifications.


Asking me to prove why they are unsafe is as ridiculous as me asking you to prove why they are safe.

You were the one making the original statement, therefore burden of proof is upon you. *shrug*


Hopefully the newbies reading all of this will make the smart choice.

I agree 100% that new reloaders shouldn't be trying this. Sometimes, however, I just don't sit idly by when someone makes a gross exaggeration like your original statement.

[TexasSkyhawk]

I'm not spreading misinformation, not matter what your anonymous Internet poster friends say. The cast boolits sight might be somewhat reliable when it comes to cast bullets and maybe commercial reloading. How many commercial reloaders are using steel cases? Georgia Arms doesn't. Black Hills doesn't. None of the gun show sellers around here sell steel-case reloads either.


Sorry, but this is just about where I draw the line.

The old-timers over at Castboolits.com have forgotten more about casting, reloading and shooting than most folks over here will ever learn. You have guys over there that were pioneers in various areas of reloading and handloading, bullet mould making, alloy mixes, powder charges for alloy loads, etc.

They don't need to quote internet or manufacture sources--they can show you the results of of what works and what doesn't firsthand.

As far as Wolf's reply? Hell, no, they're not going to tell you that their casings can be reloaded, and for a variety of reasons.

However, seeing as how Wolf is some of the sorriest so-called factory produced ammo I have ever shot in over forty years anywhere in the world, their credibility as anything even remotely appraoching "expert" is zilch with me.

My own views on reloading steel cases is "I don't want to ever do it." The views of some over at Castboolits (of which I'm a member and spend considerable time) is that our usual resources for shooting and reloading are drying up, getting more scarce, and for sure, getting more expensive. Therefore, best to be prepared to explore new avenues, ways and means to continuing to be able to reload.

I'm not a fan of steel cases for anything. Period. I think they're harder on guns, for sure can be harder on traditional dies, etc.

But who is also to say that Lee or RCBS isn't working on developing full-length resizing dies specifically FOR steel cases?

In the many years I've been reloading, I've found manufacturers of commercial ammo to be not so reliable at providing honest, objective information. The reason for which should be obvious.

Jeff

[Shoney]

On the subject of dipping the 300WinM case into powder. I have done extensive load development in this cartridge, and I would never dip-level-load it.

However, if you look at the data for IMR and H 4831, Retumbo and IMR7828, almost all list compressed loads. Of these the 4831's are around 51-53K psi while SAAMI max is 64K. It appears entirely possible to do the dip-level-load and get away with it. Again, won't do it.

Now lets talk 338WinMag. I did observe a friend dip his 338 cases in IMR4831, level across the top with a knife and stuff/crunch seat a 200 grain bullet in. They were amazingly accurate.

[fireflyfather]

The old-timers over at Castboolits.com have forgotten more about casting, reloading and shooting than most folks over here will ever learn. You have guys over there that were pioneers in various areas of reloading and handloading, bullet mould making, alloy mixes, powder charges for alloy loads, etc.

Oh, and I should add that a lot of them are hardly "anonymous", since they run businesses in the industry and their identities are well known. But I digress.

Whatever cases you are loading, a 20% overcharge is dancing with the devil.