[LaVere]

Flint Journal Editorial: Desire to carry guns a sad commentary
by The Flint Journal
Wednesday June 18, 2008, 3:07 PM
Flint Journal extras

• June 14, 2008: Openly carrying their guns, group touts unorthodox beliefs at Burton park
For shock value, it would be hard to upstage the gun-rights group that went openly "packing" to a picnic in Burton recently.

Everyone who hears of it is bound to react, whether favorably or with dismay but never indifference. Fret as gun-control advocates might, none can deny the legality of the provocative display this group of about 16 carried off at Kelly Lake Park. Burton police, who searched for a legal grounds that would have allowed banning the gathering, concede the group was within its rights as long as weapons were visible and in their holsters. There were no incidents.

Legalities being acknowledged, the proud "packers" should feel some sensitivity for other park users who do not share their enthusiasm for handguns, or who might feel downright threatened by the sight of civilians displaying guns so casually.

But those who are put off should prepare, as more such gatherings seem likely. Thousands of activists are finding fellowship throughout the nation, getting acquainted online at www.opencarry.org. Face-to-face meetings are bound to follow.

The gun-carriers to Burton make the favorite point of enthusiasts -- that society has nothing to fear from law-abiding gun owners trained in the safe use of their weapons, while safety is critically compromised by the criminal element, which possesses guns illegally and keeps them unregistered and hidden.

By contrast, the Kelly Lake Park picnic emphasized the desire to be ready to protect one's self and loved ones in a sometimes broken, violent society. Open carrying of guns theoretically can stave off assaults before they happen, or if necessary at least provide protection if there is an assault. Picnic organizers say public education was a driving motive, as people should get used to the sight of guns carried lawfully, rather than react by calling police.

People who exercise the right to carry a gun unconcealed see their reasoning as compelling, if not irrefutable, but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree. The crying shame is that our society has sunk to the state where it is necessary to say so.


Link to the article.. http://tinyurl.com/6s58dg (http://tinyurl.com/6s58dg)

[Robby]

Just today, I received a newsletter from one of the org. that I am a member of. Calling for a July 4 OPEN CARRY. Makes me wonder what will happen if it occurs nation wide.

If your for open carry, there is a date and a challenge to carry openly.

[ArmedBear]

People who exercise the right to carry a gun unconcealed see their reasoning as compelling, if not irrefutable, but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree. The crying shame is that our society has sunk to the state where it is necessary to say so.

Uh, since when did "respect to others who disagree" mean that you shouldn't do what you have a right to do, as long as you aren't actually hurting anyone?

You oughtn't be rude to other people.

But some people don't like dogs. Is it disrespectful to them that I walk mine down the street on a leash? Am I obligated to give up my right to use the sidewalks my taxes pay for, because they don't care for dogs?

Some people don't like ethnic minorities much, either. Does the reporter figure that, say, African-Americans ought to show some respect for people who don't like them, who feel downright threatened by their presence, and just stay the hell out of public places? Would it be appropriate to ban a law-abiding, peaceful assembly of African-Americans (say, a wedding reception in the park) because they make some of the townsfolk uncomfortable?

[MinnMooney]

A very similar post appeared just last week and got slightly heated. You have just opened another can of worms with this one.
Let's see where it goes.

Just for the record, I'm not in favor of open carry for myself even though it's legal in Minnesota. I figure that those who carry unconcealed are exhibitionists to a degree and want things to happen "Right Now". They want to desensatize the public to the fact that carrying is legal and a good thing. I prefer the slower, more sincere approach of having the public see that resposible gun owners/carriers protect themselves and others thru articles about real-life events.

[Robby]

I wish the media, was as good as you would like it to be! But from most of the alledged main stream media you will only get the sensational, and brutal story, that makes the shooters the bad guy's IMHO.

[mbt2001]

"...but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree."

By this idiots own logic, the "freedom of the press" would be a joke. It would have no teeth, and more often than not be running copy with blank pages for fear of offending those that "disagree".

[MinnMooney]

Ya know Robbie, I thought that the media would be pro bad guy and anti legal-carry-guy when "Shall issue" started being the law of the land several years ago but that just hasn't materialized. I've seen several articles about people who have defended themselves and have carry permits where the article was neutral. They didn't even hint that the permit carrier was doing anything improper or illegal. The articles have been factual and neutral. If I'm wrong, show me a few negative articles written about permit holders.

I read one article (in the past 5 years) about a carry permit holder who took revenge on a bouncer who tossed him out of a bar. The guy went home, retrieved his pistol and came back and shot the bouncer. The article made very little about the fact that the BG was a permit holder.

[Robby]

Minnmooney, I know some parts of the country, you do see a fair report of incidents. But I am afraid it is more of a minority report than we could hope for.

[Werewolf]

I figure that those who carry unconcealed are exhibitionists to a degree and want things to happen "Right Now".Some maybe but most do it because it is either:


The only legal way to carry
The most comfortable way to carry
A deterrent to predators


They want to desensatize the public to the fact that carrying is legal and a good thing. I prefer the slower, more sincere approach of having the public see that resposible gun owners/carriers protect themselves and others thru articles about real-life events.
And how is the public supposed to see that? They don't know that their peers are armed and ready to act. They assume all the rest are as unarmed as they are.

Articles about real life events? And where are these to be found? Not in the MSM at least not on any regular basis.

Sorry - but the best way to get the public used to citizens going armed is for citizens to go armed.

[ArmedBear]

Robby didn't say anything about a "permit holder".

The article above finds a way to make the people with guns into the "bad guys", for "not showing respect". It could have made the people who felt threatened into the "bad guys" for having an issue with law-abiding people who were doing nothing wrong and hurting nobody. The author chose the former.

Without making any judgment about what the author should have done, it's quite clear what he did do, which was to find a way to depict the people with guns as the "bad guys."

[Robby]

ArmedBear, Exactly!! They were saying open carry threatened, showed no respect, and scared the sheep and their lambs.

[dm1333]

MinnMooney,

I disagree with you on two things. People who open carry aren't necessarily exhibitionists. I can think of plenty of places and circumstances where a person would need to carry a gun on their hip and have a need for that gun as a tool. I also don't believe that your approach is any more or less sincere than that of somebody who is carrying openly.

[GunTech]

Unformed cops carry openly and few seem to be concerned. We've just been conditioned that it is normal for certain classes to carry openly.

[MDMadrid]

Open carry is illegal in South Carolina:banghead:

[Jamie C.]

I prefer the slower, more sincere approach of having the public see that resposible gun owners/carriers protect themselves and others thru articles about real-life events.

Which has more of an impact on you, reading about something or seeing it first-hand, for yourself?

The general public reads a lot of stuff that goes in one ear (eye?) and out the other. However, when they start seeing things in their own neighborhoods, without any ill effect... well, that tends to carry some weight.

Or at least that's been my observation, here in my own little corner of the world.


J.C.

[JesseL]

Legalities being acknowledged, the proud "packers" should feel some sensitivity for other park users who do not share their enthusiasm for handguns, or who might feel downright threatened by the sight of civilians displaying guns so casually.

I feel bad for the sufferers of all sorts of mental illnesses, but I'm not live my life worrying that I might trip over someone's pet psychosis.

[geekWithA.45]

How, exactly, would I demonstrate my sensitivity to someone who believes I oughtn't own or carry a gun?

By not carrying or owning a gun?
By only carrying it concealed?
Or perhaps I should furtively cover it up whenever I see wide eyes?

[MDMadrid]

who might feel downright threatened by the sight of civilians displaying guns so casually

The only way to make those people feel more comfortable is to educate them...

[Jamie C.]

The only way to make those people feel more comfortable is to educate them...

Or make 'em walk around with a bag over their heads, so they won't see anything "disturbing". :rolleyes:

( Hey, they can be considerate too, y'know. :p )


J.C.

[ArmedBear]

How, exactly, would I demonstrate my sensitivity to someone who believes I oughtn't own or carry a gun?

That's precisely the problem. There's no acceptable remedy, that doesn't involve having your rights infringed by people who have no right to do so.

Somehow, I think the reporter would have responded differently to efforts to ban a monthly picnic by the Hispanic College Honor Society because people who saw all those young brownish people in matching t-shirts and "felt like" they were a gang...

Still, I don't resent resent the people who "feel threatened" by something unfamiliar. My dog often responds that way, too. However, the possible remedies that don't involve their own psychology aren't really acceptable.

Anecdote :) :
It reminds me of a time when my wife and I were moving from a tiny apartment where we were living while waiting for a 6-month escrow on a condo that was a really good deal. Our neighbor below us, who stayed up late yacking on a cell phone in the yard nightly, complained that we were often stomping around making too much noise at 5:30 AM (I weighed 235 lbs. then, and we started going to the gym every day, before work.)

My response: "Uh, Melissa, a few things. One, you're always making it hard to sleep, yacking on your phone late at night, but I've never complained because that's just how it goes. A lot of us live around a small courtyard and you have the right to talk on the phone if you want. Two, maybe you should grab the upstairs unit since we're leaving. Three, we're MOVING OUT right now anyway."

Her: "Blah blah blah," repeating her complaints.

Me: "Well, we're MOVING OUT today. What do you want me to do, here?"

Her: Repeats again...

Me: "Melissa, I'm sorry, but we are leaving anyway. WHAT DO YOU WANT out of this conversation?"

Her: Looks frustrated. Can't think of anything to say.

[JesseL]

Or make 'em walk around with a bag over their heads, so they won't see anything "disturbing".

Y'know, we call these people 'sheep' sometimes but maybe calling them horses would be more appropriate?

http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/Horse_with_blinders_small.jpg

[MinnMooney]

Articles about real life events? And where are these to be found?

I have read several in the Mpls. Star/Tribune and on our local TV news programs. They have reported the incidents fairly and w/o bias.

The slow and steadfast method will last longer & have a deeper and more profound impact than some flash-in-the-pan exhibitionists.

[scottfrmga]

"He wore his gun outside is pants for all the honest world to feel"
I see nothing wrong with open carry and I support it 100%. The days of being made ashamed of doing what is protected by the 2nd is at an end. I say that it is long over due.
carry em if you got em

[JesseL]

The slow and steadfast method will last longer & have a deeper and more profound impact than some flash-in-the-pan exhibitionists.

I really wish you'd knock off calling open carriers 'exhibitionists'. Unless you're a genuine psychic, it's presumptuous and more than a little offensive to claim that you know so much about the internal motivations of others.

Most of us don't care about attention. Even when there is an open carry 'event' the goal isn't to be noticed, it's to make a step toward open carry becoming unremarkable and below the average person's notice.

Where I live, it's a moot point since OC is already below the average person's notice. If I was an exhibitionist looking for attention, I'd be sorely disappointed. I like to be comfortable, to carry a large gun, and to deter violent encounters before they happen. The reaction of the average person on the street doesn't figure into it.

[Jamie C.]

...more profound impact than some flash-in-the-pan exhibitionists.

And you know it's "flash-in-the-pan" and not a growing, on-going trend... how?

Enough people start doing it, and it might actually become commonplace again.

Also, even for all those articles and such you mention, it'll never gain acceptance if people don't actually start doing it instead of just talking and reading about it.


J.C.

[dm1333]

Armed Bear,

The joys of apartment dwelling! My upstairs neighbor is a 95 lb woman who walks like a herd of elephants. She also doesn't understand why I get upset when she starts vacuuming her apartment at 11 pm.

[Henry Bowman]

People who exercise the right to carry a gun unconcealed see their reasoning as compelling, if not irrefutable, but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree. The crying shame is that our society has sunk to the state where it is necessary to say so.The same has been said about blacks and gays. Some people just don't know their place. :rolleyes:

[Sniper X]

MinnMoney I must respectfully disagree with your assesment of open carry and the mental state of those who do it. I myself did open carry because it was the only legal way till CCW was passed here in the state of NM. I don;t OC anymore except when hunting, but would if for some odd reason, CCW was repealed. I in fact was asked by quite a few cops to "cover it up" while OC before CCW.

I also think that it is THE best deterent to crime in some places because any civillians first thought is that you might be a cop. Second is probably not to disturb you because you have a gun.....

I am glad CCW has passed here so I don't have to worry about "uncomfortable people" who see me carrying a gun.

[MinnMooney]

as per JesseL : I really wish you'd knock off calling open carriers 'exhibitionists'. Unless you're a genuine psychic, it's presumptuous and more than a little offensive to claim that you know so much about the internal motivations of others.

I'm sorry that you are so thin-skinned. Here is the definition that I am going by when I used the terminology.

Exhibition : an exhibiting, showing, or presenting to view.

Exibitionist : one who exhibits views or items.

I'm not a psychic and I believe that the definition precisely fits. You may be taking the term to be durogatory whereas it's strictly a descriptor. I do not mean any disrespect for those who OC. I just think it's not the way to make carrying more embraceable.

[LaVere]

Send the editor a letter
letters@flintjournal.com
Reference:
Flint Journal Editorial: Desire to carry guns a sad commentary
by The Flint Journal
Wednesday June 18, 2008, 3:07 PM
Flint Journal extras

[ArmedBear]

That's not what the word means, MinnMooney.

Merriam-Webster has two definitions:
1 a: a perversion in which sexual gratification is obtained from the indecent exposure of one's genitals (as to a stranger) b: an act of such exposure

2: the act or practice of behaving so as to attract attention to oneself

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exhibitionist

If you don't mean that, perhaps another word that means something different would be a better choice. If you do mean that, then go ahead and say so.

Your definition would apply to "exhibitor", but most certainly not to "exhibitionist."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/en%3Aexhibitor

Further note: with time, it seems that the sexual meaning of a word usurps all other meanings, often literally, and definitely metaphorically. See definitions for "erection", "gay" etc. That means that, metaphorically, the use of the word "exhibitionist" implies at least a metaphorical perversion.

[JesseL]

MinnMooney:

Merriam-Webster defines exhibitionist thus (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exhibitionist):
1 a: a perversion in which sexual gratification is obtained from the indecent exposure of one's genitals (as to a stranger) b: an act of such exposure

2: the act or practice of behaving so as to attract attention to oneself

Whether as a sexual perversion or just attention seeking, I hope you can see that most people will understand 'exhibitionist' to be more than a little pejorative.

Addendum:
Heh, looks like ArmedBear beat me to it.

[MDMadrid]

The slow and steadfast method will last longer & have a deeper and more profound impact

In case you have not noticed..."gun acceptance" is getting worse over the years (dating back to the founding of our country) the slow steadfast method is not working!

[ArmedBear]

My buddy John's daughter is an incredible stripper. Man, I love to go over on weekends just to watch that girl strip.

...and of course by that I mean she can field-disassemble and clean an AR-15 really quickly and efficiently...:neener:

Strip - To partially disassemble a firearm for cleaning.

Stripper - One who prepares a firearm for cleaning.

:evil:

[MarcusWendt]

I figure that those who carry unconcealed are exhibitionists to a degree and want things to happen "Right Now". .

Don't ya just hate that? People actually want their rights and they want them now. Freaking rebels!!!!

[AndrewGWU]

Although open carry is questionably legal here in NC, I think I am going out to puchase a good owb holster for my favorite handgun and see what happens.
This is not to be an exhibitionist or anything, I just think it would be more comfortable to open carry than shove the darn thing in my wast band.

[ArmedBear]

This is not to be an exhibitionist or anything, I just think it would be more comfortable to open carry than shove the darn thing in my wast band.

That was my story, too, but I still had to plea-bargain my way out of the indecent-exposure charge...:evil:

[divemedic]

I prefer the slower, more sincere approach of having the public see that resposible gun owners/carriers protect themselves and others thru articles about real-life events.

Translation: Just sit here and do whatever you are told. Maybe one day they will decide to be kind and give you your rights back.

http://www.msn101.com/content/emoticons/Sheep_VCRFEN.gif

[belus]

"...but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree."By this idiots own logic, the "freedom of the press" would be a joke. It would have no teeth, and more often than not be running copy with blank pages for fear of offending those that "disagree".

I really hope you, or someone local, writes a letter to this effect.

[MinnMooney]

I got my definition from my good ol' trusty The American Heritage Dictionary (hard copy) New College Edition - copyrighted 1967. This is the book that I've had since I entered college.

If you want to argue over the meaning of the word..... you lose. I have spelled out what I mean by the use of this word so if you come up with another meaning (of which there are several) then you are arguing a moot point. I'm NOT calling anyone a sexual pervert or one who flaunts their genitals. Geez............ how to really get off the true subject! I think that this thread is dead to me from now on so go ahead and post your moot remarks.

[Soybomb]

Legalities being acknowledged, the proud "packers" should feel some sensitivity for other park users who do not share their enthusiasm for handguns, or who might feel downright threatened by the sight of civilians displaying guns so casually.

I have no enthusiasm for children but it seems like it would be terribly rude for me to ask everyone in the park to leave them at home because I don't like them. I wonder if the journalist would extend this same "courtesy" to people who are disturbed by public displays of affection from homosexual couples.

Talk about the pinnacle of "I am the center of the universe" thinking.

[Daemon688]

You know we just had a similar thread like this locked today.

Here's the jist of arguments:

1. People who feel the need to carry openly are just posturing to show how manly and tough they are. They are really just making up for personal inadequacies.

Comment: This belief is the one that irks me, especially on a "pro-gun" community like THR. It's the exact same argument any anti-gunner would use about gun ownership in general. Gee wilickers you must be one of those types who cling to guns and religion........

2. I like have the element of surprise, that's why I think open carry is bad. The only people who know I carry are those closest to me.

3. I see nothing wrong with open carry. It's more comfortable, has a potential deterrent effect, and provides educational opportunities to the public.

[HK G3]

I would post the "look at me, I'm an attention... word that rhymes with bore" picture, but I'm pretty sure that would be against the ToS.

But that's what I feel these events are - exhibitionist cries for attention. You want to desensitize the public? Open carry by yourself at the local bank or super market and just go about your business as you normally would. Ask your buddies to do the same when they go by themselves.

But by organizing an event and getting a bunch of guys with guns strapped to their belts to hang out at a traditionally family-oriented locale for the sole purpose of open-carrying just screams out, "LOOK AT ME PEOPLE!!!"

I live in AZ, where open carry is really not too big of a deal until you start going to areas where young adults generally hang out, and I believe OC should be legal and constitutionally protected in the entire US. However, events like these just seem counterproductive.

I remember a conversation I had at my family's dinner table awhile ago when I met with them for the summer break, where my younger brother was talking about his friend who was freaked out when he saw a guy walk into a sandwich place with a gun on his belt, and openly wondered what kind of person would OC, and immediately came to the conclusion that it was solely the domain of rather unsavory individuals. I'm sure, however, that if he routinely saw people going about their daily routines with a pistol on their belt, it would no longer be a big deal to him, and he'd essentially be desensitized to it. But if he had seen a large group of people doing it at first, it would probably have been a much bigger deal to him.

If someone has arachnophobia, you don't stick 12 tarantulas on them during the first session of therapy. You have to gradually expose them to their fear, and hoplophobes have to be treated in the same fashion.

At any rate, I usually prefer CCW to OC. The only time I OC is at gas stations extremely late at night, and I use a tactical thigh holster during that time for increased shock value. I figure late at night in a gas station, there's an increased risk of criminal activity, and they could get the drop on me pretty easily if I were paying for the gas or looking inside for something, and then my CCW wouldn't be as useful. With the gun easily visible, and my being a tall and fit person with a short haircut, it may cause the average crook to assume law enforcement, and just leave in search of a different locale.

[ArmedBear]

But if he had seen a large group of people doing it at first, it would probably have been a much bigger deal to him.

I'm not sure. He might have thought, "Well, I guess it's no big deal around here. Whatever." It's hard to say what he might have thought.

I know that, if it's common for a hiker to have a gun in an area, people won't pay much attention. But if one out of 50 people has a gun, he might seem more "unsavory."

That said, I don't know what is the right way to do things. I'm not necessarily advocating these "events". Personally, I think that there would be other ways to "make a statement" that could have a strong positive message built into them, instead of just hanging out at a park.

However, the reporter's lamenting the fact that these people can't be banned from the public park is not acceptable, either, to me.

for increased shock value

So you're guilty, too. Or not. See, your intentions are not bad. But how can you be sure that someone else's are bad, when yours are not?

[JesseL]

MinnMooney,

Language evolves and what words are commonly understood to mean changes. It's a fact of life (unless you propose government control of language like they have in France) and if you want to be understood, you'll have to try to keep up. You don't call people that look happy 'gay' anymore, you don't call people of sub-saharan african descent and you probably shouldn't call someone an exhibitionist unless you mean to imply that they're a pervert or attention hound.

And get yourself a new dictionary.

[HK G3]

So you're guilty, too. Or not. See, your intentions are not bad. But how can you be sure that someone else's are bad, when yours are not?

Fair enough. I suppose the difference (in my mind) is that I am only doing it when I am going to what is normally a very isolated area, with maybe one other person there, as opposed to trying to find a densely populated locale to show off. In most cases, no one is even around to see that I have a gun, and that's the best case scenario, in my mind anyway.

[Deanimator]

Uh, since when did "respect to others who disagree" mean that you shouldn't do what you have a right to do, as long as you aren't actually hurting anyone?
No doubt he similarly believes that Blacks, Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, handicapped people, etc. ought to stay in the shadows to avoid offending the "sensitivities" of bigots who don't like THEM either.

The bizarre thing is that I'd bet my life savings that the author considers himself a "liberal"...

[ArmedBear]

LOL

Yeah, maybe he thinks women should wear burqas, too, to avoid tempting men who have taken a vow of chastity.

Where, exactly, does it end?

[Deanimator]

But that's what I feel these events are - exhibitionist cries for attention.
You mean like when a bunch of us here in Ohio counter-demonstrated a Million Mom March event against legal CCW? Nobody was packing, but how's that ANY different? We were seeking attention for the right to CCW. Shouldn't we have just individually spoken to random people in random places in favor of CCW? Or perhaps not at all?

If you're ashamed of what you believe in, why bother to believe in it?

If you're ashamed of your rights, why have them?

If we're going to be intimidated by the "feelings" of those diametrically opposed to gun ownership and self-defense, why not just turn in our guns at the next buy-back and not even ask for compensation? I'm sure that will give those who hate us and our rights a much more positive opinion of us. Of course by that time, we won't BE "us"...

[JesseL]

trying to find a densely populated locale to show off.

What makes you think that's anyone's intention?

I open carry everywhere I legally can; not to show off, but simply because it's the way I prefer to carry.

[Huddog]

Well another "journalist" doesn't like gunowners especially those who carry open, anyone here suprised?

[ranger335v]

"I figure that those who carry unconcealed are exhibitionists to a degree and want things to happen "Right Now". "

I doubt the accuracy of that appraisal. I rarely open carry but when I do it's because of the difficulty or discomfort of carrying conceled.

My appraisal of those who are uncomfortable with people who open carry have been conditioned to fear guns, in and of themselves, by the "liberal" media in their effort to end the possesion of ALL private guns, period. On the other hand, if the masses come to see open carry in their daily lives and all in normal safety, the media would soon have a harder time convincing the fearful that those fears are valid.

Refusing to allow the media whinners to win their silly arguments may help the cause of truth, not hurt it.

[Deanimator]

HK G3
By the way, that's a very interesting handle. You seem to be very publicly proclaiming an interest in that firearm. You DO realize that a LOT of people are frightened and intimidated by that firearm, DON'T you? Do you own one? If so, WHY? Couldn't you "hunt" with something less controversial, say a single shot break open shotgun? And why do you need to "hunt" AT ALL? Don't you know that there are thousands of people in this country opposed to hunting? Haven't you given ANY consideration to THEIR "feelings"? Are you seeking attention? WHY? Wouldn't it be better to call yourself "Vegan Pacifist"? Wouldn't that assuage the fears of others that you stir up by referring to yourself by using the name of a weapon of war?

I won't refer to you the way you referred to the open carry people, but your motivations strike me as being clearly identical to those which you attribute to them.

Try to display some sensitivity in the future.

[jlbraun]

For shock value, it would be hard to upstage the gay-rights group that went openly holding hands to a picnic in Burton recently.

Everyone who hears of it is bound to react, whether favorably or with dismay but never indifference. Fret as family advocates might, none can deny the legality of the provocative display this group of about 16 carried off at Kelly Lake Park. Burton police, who searched for a legal grounds that would have allowed banning the gathering, concede the group was within its rights as long as there was no nudity. There were no incidents.


Funny how bigots are all the same.

[Golden Hound]

I will never understand how SO many people are okay with COPS having guns, concealed or not, but when mere civilians do it, all of a sudden it's something scary and evil. Look, I'm not anti-cop, and most of the LEOs that I know are very good guys who I trust. But the police badge does not automatically confer upon its wearer the status of some kind of superhuman god who is above all other people. All it means is that that person passed the police training. Let's not kid ourselves, cops can be huge screw-ups. Sometimes they shoot the wrong person by accident. Sometimes they shoot themselves by accident. ("I'm the only person in this room qualified to...BAAANNGGG!!!") Some of them don't receive enough training on their weapons, and are clumsy or out of shape. Some of them are racist, some of them are corrupt, some of them are just downright horrible people. And most of them are good. In other words, they're like the population of regular people.

But people see that police uniform and all of a sudden they put all their trust in that guy with the gun, and have no problem whatsoever with it. Those same people would recoil in horror at someone who is open-carrying.

[Poor East Texan]

Open Carry would be so cool! I could have a honkin' big 1911 and not have to hide it!

But the same people who would freak if they knew there was a gun in my truck would have heart attacks if I had it on me!

[Standing Wolf]

For shock value, it would be hard to upstage the gun-rights group that went openly "packing" to a picnic in Burton recently.

I believe I'd be a trifle more shocked by the average gang murder, of which we have dozens daily in the United States.

Leftist extremists have no perspective on reality.

[trinydex]

wow that's some serious flawed logic.

i don't go check out the dag park cuz i'm not that into dags, but i don't tell people to get rid of their dags.

[Big45]

I OC when I can for sheer comfort, I couldn't care less who sees me.

[romma]

Burton police, who searched for a legal grounds that would have allowed banning the gathering, concede the group was within its rights as long as weapons were visible and in their holsters.

Darn those rights!! Imagine police and public officials trying to conjure up excuses to infringe the rights of fellow Americans because certain people disagree with them..


What a sad image..

If my mother were alive and pro-gun, she would face this group and tell them "shame on you"!

[jrfoxx]

ArmedBear said very well, in posts 3 and 10, exactly what I think, feel, beleive, and would have said, yet did it beter than I could have. Kudos to ArmedBear for yet another well ststed, accurate, logical, post(s).

[Daemon688]

I've carried openly before, but 99.99% of the time I carry concealed.. I was wearing my suit and it was a hot and humid day. I took off my suit coat and went into a couple of stores to pick up a few things from wallyworld and gander mountain. Was I looking for attention? No. But I guess to an observer like you, in this instance I must be an attention hure. Comming from a guy who likes to go on late night trips to the gas station with a tactical thigh holster on him. :neener:

I'll carry concealed because I agree with the idea that the element of surprise is a good thing and it's also a good thing not to have the police called on you for "man with a gun". But there are instances such as my situation above where it wasn't about showing off, teaching the public, etc. but about me being comfortable.

[theotherwaldo]

I know a number of people that are terrified of dogs or cats.

Should this lead to a ban on unconcealed pets?

Should you have to apply for a leash possession license so that you could walk your dog in public?

Should we consider nation-wide bans on "assault breeds"?

Would we have a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives, and Pets?

-It's for the children - of all ages.

[A-190]

Just used to seeing it and not to concerned.:what:
as regards the fear of others carrying concealed.
Just my take and the speech I give to neighbor hood watch groups.
The fella(or gal) who takes the time to get the proper permit and training required by the state of Oklahoma, is not and has never been the "problem" for society. They are the ones who will habitually obey the law.....I always got a room full of stares and then nods of approval and understanding.
Virtually all CCW will be bonified and up right citizens who are interested in the right reason and not the wrong reason.
Sorry for blathering on so.just saying;)

[Prince Yamato]

You know, of all the things that make me feel threatened by people, a HOLSTERED gun is not one of them. While I personally feel that open carry is more a 1st amendment issue than a second one, it's really not a big deal. I mean, I could see restricting open carry on public transit or something like that, where your hands are occupied and it's easy to grab your firearm, but there's no reason to be fretting about a bunch of people with holstered guns, in the park, at a picnic. I'd be more worried about their littering than their shooting.


Should you have to apply for a leash possession license so that you could walk your dog in public?

Which brings up the point- you have more to fear from some idiot's misbehaved dog than you do from an inanimate object stuffed in a holster.

[A-190]

Its a stronger statement as to the level our country has devolved to that we, all of us, feel compelled to have to carry for self protection.
The anger should be directed towards the absolute lack of control of the population and its relationship to the criminal element.

Dont jump to hard. Im not anti carry. Just amazed at our country's lack of ability to observe the criminal elements and act indecisively with them.

[bnkrazy]

Regarding the article, I'm appalled that the police would attempt to find a way to stop the event from happening. We have a few localities if VA that would do that, but luckily they are few and far between.

I'm curious what those that are opposed to OC would do if you lived in VA. Here, if you enter a restaurant that serves alcohol, you are required to OC as our genius Governor just vetoed a bill that would have allowed CCW.

So, should all of us in VA simply not carry when we go out to eat, or should we just always eat at home? What would you do?

[22-rimfire]

I don't think there should be any laws at all regarding open or concealed carry. The idea that you have to get a permit to doing something bugs me. Permit to add a deck. Permit to burn trash or weeds. Permit to install a driveway. Permit to remodel your house. Permit to mow your grass. Drivers Permit. CCW Permit. Permit Permit Permit...

The right is enumerated in our Constitution. So why do we have to ask permission at all?

I like these demonstrations of our rights. Farmers, minorities, gays, women, abortion activists, etc all do it. We need more of them concerning firearms so that politicians take notice. The majority of the politicians seem to not want to ruffle any feathers. It's a love fest and nothing gets done!!

We also need more people who accept carrying of a firearm as normal. You even get "looks" with knives.

If I could, I'd open carry too. Concealed carry is too much of a hassle.

[Janitor]

While here in Minnesota there seems to be a contingent that carrying should be a super-double secret kind of thing, carrying open is simply unremarkable around here. Just a big *yawn*. I virtually always carry concealed. But sometimes, my concealment is just the jacket or coat I'm wearing. If I end up in a restaurant or market where I take my cover off, then I'm open. Not so much carrying open, just doing a very (very) poor job of concealment.

To date, I've seen roughly zero (plus or minus none) reactions from anyone around me. As I said - it's just unremarkable around here and seems to go unnoticed.

I will never understand how SO many people are okay with COPS having guns, concealed or not, but when mere civilians do it, all of a sudden it's something scary and evil.
Just a nit here (nits are my life - pretty sad, eh?) - the LEO's are civilians also.

[MinnMooney]

As per "22 Rimfire" : I don't think there should be any laws at all regarding open or concealed carry. The idea that you have to get a permit to doing something bugs me. Permit to add a deck. Permit to burn trash or weeds. Permit to install a driveway. Permit to remodel your house. Permit to mow your grass. Drivers Permit. CCW Permit. Permit Permit Permit...

I have pondered this many times and have come to the conclusion that permits is how governments can keep track of every little aspect of our lives. They know if you own boats, guns, cars, pets, a house, land, cabin, septic tank, well, porch, how many bathrooms/bedrooms/etc., if you hunt and/or fish and what types of each that you do through multiple licensing/tags/stamps. We can be profiled down to how haircuts we get a year (cred.cards), miles we drive, income and interests.

That one reason why I believe we should go to the barter system. No records. Money/CCs/checks won't be needed for all transactions. You'd retain a small amount of privacy.

This is off the original post but "22 Rimfire" got me fired up.

[frankcostanza]

Legalities being acknowledged, the proud "packers" should feel some sensitivity for other park users who do not share their enthusiasm for handguns

This is the worst logic I have ever heard. So does the same thing apply to people who want to have a cigarette in the park? Or a gay couple who wants to hold hands as they walk through the park? Shouldn't they feel some sensitivity for me if I don't smoke or becasue I like girls? The truly sad commentary on our society is not the fact that people openly carry a sidearm (which they have done for centuries) but it is the fact that people are so offended by everything. It's a free country. Or at least it used to be...

[raz-0]

People who exercise the right to carry a gun unconcealed see their reasoning as compelling, if not irrefutable, but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree.

Why is it people can never apply that reasoning to themselves?

WHy can't they show respect and stop trying to change the behavior of those they disagree with?

They think it is just common courtesy that they get to trample all over the rights of the gun owners, but it is unthinkable that they should just shut up and ignore their law abiding neighbors who aren't breaking the law.

[JColdIron]

You know, of all the things that make me feel threatened by people, a HOLSTERED gun is not one of them.

Took the words I was going to use ;)

I'd only be concerned about one pointed at me or brandished in a "stand and deliver" situation.

I am always curious when I see someone OC'ing... I want to know what they are carrying!

[ptmmatssc]

People who exercise the right to carry a gun unconcealed see their reasoning as compelling, if not irrefutable, but it is not too much to ask that they show respect to others who disagree.

I was raised that respect is earned , not deserved . I can't show "respect" for anyone that is willing to restrict or nullify MY RIGHTS simply because of their "feelings" or insecurities .

It says a lot that this guy himself is not showing any respect to the gun owners by putting up a stink in the first place .


.

[MiddleAgedKen]

I'm not a psychic and I believe that the definition precisely fits. You may be taking the term to be durogatory whereas it's strictly a descriptor. I do not mean any disrespect for those who OC. I just think it's not the way to make carrying more embraceable.

You enjoy your privilege to keep and bear arms, MinnMooney. I will exercise my right. You may take the statement to be derogatory, whereas it is strictly descriptive.

[Grizzly Adams]

I both OC and CC. I'm not putting on an exhibition when I OC, I'm doing it to be comfortable due to the weather, the weapon I wearing, etc. And because it's my right and it's the law!

As to the media; if we wait for a fair shake from them we'll be speaking some funny sounding language first!

[AlaskaErik]

Legalities being acknowledged, the proud "packers" should feel some sensitivity for other park users who do not share their enthusiasm for handguns, or who might feel downright threatened by the sight of civilians displaying guns so casually.


How about other park users showing some sensitivity for those who open carry?

[Tyris]

Really want to push the boundary with open carry?

dont carry anything as mundane as a 1911, carry something that'll make a statement like this:

OA-93
http://jsgunparts.com/jsstore/images/oly_oa-93.jpg

SIG-556 pistol
http://sigforum.com/movedimages/para/SHOT07/556_pistol_left.jpg

That will make the bed-wetters really soil themselves.

-T

[Poor East Texan]

/\ Me LIKE Sig 556 Pistol!

Me KNOW it's so far out of my grasp!

[divemedic]

In a gathering like this, where people are open carrying to make a political statement, isn't the act of open carrying protected political speech?

[Werewolf]

In a gathering like this, where people are open carrying to make a political statement, isn't the act of open carrying protected political speech?One would think...

However, I imagine that the notion hasn't ever been tested in a court and until it is - well - that's lawyer stuff and I ain't no lawyer.