Trying to cut presumed "No CCW @ Sam's Club" off at the pass?


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Green Lantern
June 18, 2008, 06:12 PM
Now AFAIK, there's been no official announcement that Sams is GOING to be posted yet, but I imagine most of us are familiar about what they said after that girl shot herself with her grandmother's (legally CCWd) gun in there:

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8451232

Stewart said as of right now they do not have a policy on concealed weapons, but after this incident, that could change.

"While we don't have a sign posted, I think everyone knows the rules and laws. We are working with police to make changes if necessary," said Stewart.

What stinks about this is, we hardly have the "high ground" here. No one was shot because a crook ignored a "self-defense free" zone - someone was shot because a lawful CCWer got careless...

This brings to mind a time when I called a local gun store to protest their "all guns, including CCW, MUST BE UNLOADED." Most all of the wind went out of my sails when the guy told me WHY they put the sign up - some fools were testing holster fit in the store with LOADED guns, and eventually there was a ND inside the store...

FWIW - I don't actually have a membership there or anything. But I know folks that DO, and I don't fancy them shopping in a "criminal friendly" no-gun posted environment.

I don't know - just call or email them and point out the risks of "posting" are greater than the risks of allowing CCW?

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WayneConrad
June 18, 2008, 06:37 PM
We have all the high ground here. A careless person caused an innocent to be shot. That's hardly any different than a criminal act, and no reason to restrict carry by law abiding citizens. Be mindful of that when writing our well thought-out letters.

Don't cower.

Kentak
June 19, 2008, 05:19 PM
WC--

But, I don't think that's the way the liability lawyers and risk management people think.

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and speculate on what Sam's Club or any other business faced with this decision might be mulling on.

[[We know we have a legal right to post "No Guns" at our stores. We know posting won't prevent criminals from bringing guns in, so posting doesn't affect armed criminal risk expose either way. But, posting will prevent most of the legal concealed carry. That, by definition, will decrease our exposure to liability from negligent, careless, or accidental incidents such as the Grandma-with-gun-in-purse.]]

Legal costs being what they are today, many business may fear liability costs more than loss of gun-people business.

Just some thoughts.

K

zxcvbob
June 19, 2008, 05:35 PM
Don't forget that as a Magistrate, granny could legally carry the concealed weapon in spite of the sign (just like a cop on duty)

Ridgerunner665
June 19, 2008, 06:02 PM
The best way to fight this is by urging CCW'ers to get proper training...and I don't mean the 6 or 8 hour class thats required by most states to get a CCW.

I mean TRAINING...at least a 3 to 5 day class from a competent and capable teacher

Deacon Blues
June 19, 2008, 06:15 PM
Sam's already subjects us to needless searches of our newly acquired goods; a CCW ban might just be the last straw for me. Then again, I'm not so sure that they plan to change anything."While we don't have a sign posted, I think everyone knows the rules and laws. We are working with police to make changes if necessary," said Stewart.To me, this sounds like escape language. Basically, he's saying, "we'll do something (like what?), if we (who is we?) and the police decide that it's necessary (an easily manipulated word) to do anything." Sam's Club and their attorneys are not ignorant; they know that was a freak accident and unlikely to happen again anytime in the near future. What they will be worried about is their public image in the meantime.

Picard
June 24, 2008, 10:03 AM
I worked at a Sam's Club for a summer and there was a lady that slipped on a puddle and broke her foot. I know that's more common than people shooting themselves, so why don't we ban faucets? I mean, without that water, a lot less people would get hurt.

Like someone said earlier, we do have the high ground, and that is that our argument makes sense.

Autolycus
June 28, 2008, 12:50 PM
It wasn't the faucets fault, it was the idiot that let the puddle accumulate.

Robert Hairless
June 30, 2008, 03:57 AM
Don't forget that as a Magistrate, granny could legally carry the concealed weapon in spite of the sign (just like a cop on duty)

Yup. So maybe Sam's Club could post signs prohibiting old lady magistrates from carrying guns legally in Sam's Club, and then the old lady magistrate could ignore the sign and everybody would feel safer.

Is there a signup sheet for stirring up hornets' nests and disturbing sleeping dogs, or is it done on a volunteer basis by anyone with spare time?

Let's see. Green Lantern .... You don't belong to Sam's Club, so you don't shop there. You, therefore, would not even see a "No Guns" sign if it were posted or is posted or isn't posted at a Sam's Club. You also don't know anything more about Sam Club's policies than you've read or imagined. You do know, from what the spokesman said, that they have no sign and are behaving reasonably and are consulting with the police to determine IF it's necessary to have a sign. You also have been embarrassed at least once, from what you yourself say, by putting your foot in your mouth under similar circumstances. Now you want to follow up on that achievement by spreading your magic to Sam's Club. Experience suggests that you are not good at this kind of thing. No learnee?

Green Lantern
July 12, 2008, 09:14 PM
Let's see. Green Lantern .... You don't belong to Sam's Club, so you don't shop there. You, therefore, would not even see a "No Guns" sign if it were posted or is posted or isn't posted at a Sam's Club.

I also don't own anything that the Brady's could label as an "evil sniper rifle" either. So you're saying that I should just keep my gob shut if they start up a PR campaign against them, then? And to hell with the others that DO own them, loved ones or not?

You also don't know anything more about Sam Club's policies than you've read or imagined.

If I have made an assumption in error (based on what I've read on the matter), then perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to the truth?

You also have been embarrassed at least once, from what you yourself say, by putting your foot in your mouth under similar circumstances. Now you want to follow up on that achievement by spreading your magic to Sam's Club. Experience suggests that you are not good at this kind of thing. No learnee?


:scrutiny: :rolleyes:

The gun store/outfitter's had ALREADY posted. Sam's hasn't. Trying to convince someone to take a "gunbuster" down would strike me as being harder than trying to convince them not to put one up in the first place.

Anyway, you haven't a clue as to ALL of my experiences. I've gotten them taken down before. Have you?

At any rate, even before your...interesting input, I figured it best to take a wait-and-see approach.

The Endangered American.
July 12, 2008, 10:55 PM
I don't understand red-blooded Americans tolerating someone dictating their carry policy to them. Seems to me this is settled law in the Second Amendment. "Keep and bear," ("possess and carry") "shall not be infringed." Period.

Yes, store owners have the right to post the "Please Rob Us" signs. If I am to leave my gun in the car, I want to see the credentials of your armed guards you will obviously be providing now that you've made me defenseless.

What!? No guards!? That's why I ignore your sign.

I used to work in a state that permitted some of their subjects to be armed, but there were unnumbered places that had the gun and circle on the front door, and me and my snubbie walked past a lot of them.

One of my favorite bumper stickers says "Free men do not ask permission to bear arms." Here's my carry policy:

If you:
1) do not provide an armed guardian who will fight for my life with the same skill and determination that I would in the event of an attack;
and/or you:
2) will not provide for my family at the same or greater level that I currently do in the event of my death or disability after you've made sure I'm easy prey by not allowing me to have my guns,
then:
you are not in the loop on my carry policy.

I don't ask if I can carry my guns to protect myself and my family any more than I would ask if I can go to work to earn a paycheck to provide for them.

Blackbeard
July 14, 2008, 11:54 AM
What we need is a Castle Doctrine for businesses. Pass a law stating that any business that allows CCW is immune from suits stemming from a customer's abuse or negligence of their CCW.

Green Lantern
July 14, 2008, 10:08 PM
Sounds great to me...though if I'm not mistaken, aren't there several laws like that already on the books?

If not, there ought to be. If so, we need to get the word out...

Robert Hairless
July 14, 2008, 11:06 PM
Anyway, you haven't a clue as to ALL of my experiences.

That's true. All I know is what you've said about yourself.

Airman193SOS
July 15, 2008, 12:27 AM
The best way to fight this is by urging CCW'ers to get proper training...and I don't mean the 6 or 8 hour class thats required by most states to get a CCW.

I mean TRAINING...at least a 3 to 5 day class from a competent and capable teacher

That's a good idea, but fundamentally it is the same as a literacy test for voting. Imagine if you will that some state requires a class like that. In addition to the time requirements which will take people away from their jobs, the possibility exists that the state may only offer it once a year.

Such a barrier to entry qualifies as a de facto ban on concealed carry, yet it remains perfectly legal.

The potential for abuse is too great if it is mandated. We simply have no alternative except to depend on the owner to make responsible decisions.

GrizzlyGraves
August 22, 2008, 12:47 PM
Here's the text of an email I sent the company yesterday and their prompt response. I was quite pleased.

I am a prospective member. I will not be renewing my Costco membership due to their policies that restrict law-abiding citizens from exercising the right to keep and bear arms while shopping in their stores.

Before I become a member of your store I would like to know your company policy on this matter?

Thank you

Dear ***** Graves,

Your Legal right by the Government to carry a concealled weapon is your choice!
Our Company does not go against the law and does not post any signs that state
you can not come in to our clubs with a (licensed concealled weapon.) We want you
to know that it may make some folks feel uncomfortable, but as long as you are willing
to show a legal License to carry a concealled weapon if requested you can shop with Sam's.


Greg Volz
Club Manager #6644
Oakwood Georgia
770-532-8884


Naturally there's no need to point out that if the weapon is properly concealed, there's no way anyone will be made "uncomfortable. But they seem very pro gun and I will definitely be switching stores for my bulk buying. Now if they only sold bulk ammo.

Screw Costco:neener:

Henry Bowman
August 29, 2008, 02:22 PM
What we need is a Castle Doctrine for businesses. Pass a law stating that any business that allows CCW is immune from suits stemming from a customer's abuse or negligence of their CCW.
We have that in Ohio. It protects businesses (whether they allow or prohibit CCW) from liability from the acts of a CHL holder. It does not protect them from liability from hte acts of one who illegally carries. If businesses think about it rationally, it discourages prohibiting CCW.

Neither Costco nor Sam's prohibits CCW in my area.

Stewart said as of right now they do not have a policy on concealed weapons, but after this incident, that could change.

"While we don't have a sign posted, I think everyone knows the rules and laws. We are working with police to make changes if necessary," said Stewart.Legal costs being what they are today, many business may fear liability costs more than loss of gun-people business.

I don't see how Sam's could have any exposure to liability in the present case.

mgregg85
August 29, 2008, 03:10 PM
I'm glad that "no CCW allowed" signs have no legal beaing here in michigan(other than government buildings of course).

I have seen several of these signs at movie theaters and other such places and I just walk on by(though I do tend to spend my money at ccw-friendly places). The most they can do is ask me to leave and have the cops arrest me for trespassing if I refuse.

Zedo
August 30, 2008, 12:30 PM
CostCo on the West Coast has a "no guns" policy. This is a small community with a CostCo, everyone knows everyone else. Mostly we just ignore the store policy.

CostCo's response to me has been "we want our members (it's a membership retailer), to have a safe shopping experience without being intimdated by someone with a firearm.

I pointed out that no one knows if you're carrying a concealed handgun -- and that it's entirely legal; CCW permit holders have been vetted.

firemax
September 10, 2008, 10:44 PM
In regard to a business choosing to ban weapons... in the state of Georgia, a private business may post a "No Guns Allowed" sign, but there is no penalty for CCW carrier if they ignore the sign. The only penalty which you might incur is if they call the police, and you refuse to leave the premises after they ask you to leave. Then you get hit with a "Trespassing" charge.

So, when I see a "No Guns Allowed" sign on a private business, I don't pay it any mind, unless it is a gun shop.

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