[rugerfreak]

I mean for point blank---last ditch---better to have a gun than nothing uses??

Will it just bounce off their skull and get just get em PO-ed??

Or will it stop a close-in attack fairly reliably??

Been looking at the mini Beretta's-----local shop has them for a good price---but in 25acp only.

[Tropical Z]

.25acp is an obsolete,inferior cartridge that has NO place in civilized society!

[Bowlcut]

Get a heavy gun....if high point sells a boat anchor...errr...25 get it. So you can chuck it at them very fast and well aimed.

as said about every calaber.... better to have a .25 in hand than a .45 in the truck. a 25 is at best a belly gun. Something close and personal. some say that a well welded knife might be better but bahh. .25 at contact range, pointed up into the chest cavity would tear up something. beyond 5 yards, i wouldnt bother very much. and always aim for soft tissue with small bullet rim fires.... more likely to do stopping damage than a head shot

[AZ Husker]

There really is no practical use for it. You'd be better off with .22lr, but today there are so many quality tiny guns in so-so calibers. Don't sell yourself short. Even in the heat of Arizona I carry a .45 concealed daily. If you wait until it's point blank range, you'll never be able to deploy it anyway.

[Voodoo]

I don't see anyone here lining up to take volunteer head shots with one! :rolleyes: Where are all the tough guys now?!?!? :neener:

That being said...

I do occasionally clip-draw my Jetfire IWB when I walk the dog at night (when my attire will not accomodate my j-frame or Mustang). It is small, and has been utterly reliable for over 500 rounds. FWIW, it's a great accompaniment to the pepper spray, Sebenza, and Surefire that make up my dog walking gear.

[10-Ring]

I'm glad I have my Jetfire for those times anything bigger is out of the question.

[sanchezero]

25acp---is it really that bad??

It's worse. More people have been killed by blanks.

:p

[Josey]

Hey Every single person that I have ever seen shot with a 25 ACP has received a free parting gift. An autopsy. 25 ACP kills.

[WonderNine]

I do occasionally clip-draw my Jetfire IWB when I walk the dog at night (when my attire will not accomodate my j-frame or Mustang).

Hard to imagine not being able to conceal a Mustang at night...walking a dog...

I was wondering. Does anybody know....is there a *mmMmm* HOT or +P load for .25 out there anywhere?

You would think it could really be loaded hotter than a .22lr wouldn't you? Something like that wouldn't be so bad in a Jetfire sized package. And we all know that the Jetfire is an extremely reliable gun.

[sanchezero]

Josey, those are people that were already dead and used for ballistic testing in the name of science.

:neener:

[JPM70535]

From a personal perspective, I would rather have a 25 ACP than nothing, but I would stay away from head shots, heres why. Once upon a time, (No this is not a fairy tale) there was a barroom shootout at the "Dew Drop Inn" between 2 highly intoxicted patrons. One was armed with a 9mm SNS ad the other with a similar quality piece in 25 cal. When the smoke cleared, the owner of the 9mm had missed while Wyatt Earp and his trusty hog leg had planted one right between the running kights of his opponent. The only indication that this occurred was a small blue dot directly over his nose.

To shorten the story, when the local Police arrived and arrested both entlemen involved, the owner of the 3rd eye proceeded to attack his adversary, requiring 3 good sized officers to restrain him. Once restrained, the entrance wound was discovered and trasportation to the local ER was instituted. X rays showed the bullet had failed to completely penetrate the skull and was remolved by the MD with a pair of tweezers and the wound covered with a bandaid. Both participants were booked in and jailed after they kissed and made up. So much for the 25 as a weapon of choice, and one more side note. The distance at which this shootout took place was arms lengrh, with a total of 6 rounds expended IIRC. There were no witnesses as all 125 other patrons were in the rest room at the time and saw nothing.

[tbeb]

I have seen .25's ricochet off an automobile oil filter. However, a .25 ACP is better than nothing. I've owned a couple Beretta .25's and they both were very reliable. I didn't like the magazine release which was located on the grip. Once or twice I accidentally pushed it while firing.

For the money I'd buy a used, older Charter Arms Undercover .38 revolver. You can buy one in excellent condition for $150. Another $15 or so (shipping included) will get you a Mika pocket holster. This combo is bigger than a mini Beretta, but holster disguises outline of revolver.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

The .25 ACP stinks as a personal defense round!:uhoh:

You would be better off with a good sling-shot, firing tiny
ball bearing's.:rolleyes:

Seriously, I'd rather have a small quality .22LR
semi-auto; than a .25 ACP of comparable size. But,
that is just my take on the situation~

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A, Life Member

[Double Naught Spy]

Is the .25 acp really that bad as a last ditch effort? Well, there is a reason you are calling it a last ditch effort and it is not because it is very good for self defense.

At what point does the .25 acp become the last ditch effort? My guess this would be the last ditch effort after repeatedly stabbing your attacker with a pencil that has now broken. At least the pencil is a larger diameter and gets better penetration.

I do no understand the fascination with 'last ditch effort' and 'better than nothing' guns. These are considerations at the crappy end of the scale to be considering for self defense. When the chips are down, do you really want your 'last ditch effort' and 'better than nothing' guns? Basically, at that point, what you are saying is that you have a gun that you know isn't too good, but you have it anyway because when you get to this point, either you are dead or the gods will smile on you and those terrible little pea shooters (WARNING: Not good for shooting peas) will magically become effective defense guns.

If you are going to make a last ditch effort, should it no be with a very powerful weapon? After all, if you last ditch effort fails, you die, so what not choose something really good for the job. There is a reason atomic bombs are deployed last and it is a good reason.

Ala Dan mentioned a .22 lr being better. That is probably true with the one exception of rimfire versus centerfire. The .25 is centerfire.

What sucks about the .25 or .22 as last ditch sorts of guns is that they carry the same lethal force legal liabilities as bigger guns without the same power. So you have all the risk without all the benefit.

[Chipperman]

I have a .25 Colt that I carried when I could not conceal a real gun. I felt better with it than without it. It was the smallest gun I had and could easily go into a pocket when IWB was not possible.

Remember that in some cases showing the gun may be enough to stop an encounter. An attacker most likely will not see a .25 and say, "Go ahead and shoot." If you do have to shoot, repeat as needed until one actually does do some damage. Six or seven rounds COM is not going to make your body happy. Yeah, maybe some will not penetrate far, but at least a couple will cause a problem.

Now I have a Seecamp in .32 and feel much better about it. It's about the same size as the Colt and .32 is a much better cartridge. Now I don't carry the little .25 at all. If I had a gun the same size that was in .380 or 9mm I'd like that even more.

[gbelleh]

Lets not get too carried away here, the .25 is certainly lethal. Of course it's not the best choice for a defensive gun, but it is still extremely dangerous to be in the way of a .25 round.

Sure, many a .25 has bounced off a skull, but .25 has been successfully used in plenty of self defense situations too.

My point is just that although it's not the ideal choice for defense, the .25 ACP is not a toy and needs to be treated with the same respect as a .45.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Here's the limited chronograph data I have on .25 ACP. The average velocities listed are based on 10-shot averages.

.25 ACP (Beretta 950):

Winchester 50 gr FMJ : 805 ft/sec, ES: 60, SD: 21
Hornady 35 gr XTP: 996 ft/sec, ES: 73, SD: 24

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p7c9971db8fe85ab1b6de609d0bd6b1ec/fc1aa55a.jpg
This 35-gr. Hornady XTP in .25 ACP was fired into water from a Beretta 950. The recovered bullet was 0.39 x 0.38 x .25"tall. While this is "impressive," I think it's still a caliber not to be counted upon unless there's some overriding reason...like I cannot run and there's nothing else available. That said, I'm familar with a case in which a felon armed with a knife was shot one time (heart) with 50-gr FMJ and dropped when shot and died. I am also familar with quite a few other incidents where folks absorbed a .25 or two and were released from the hospital in a matter of hours. It really depends on what's hit, but I just don't trust this caliber to do but minimal damage with FMJ and have penetration concerns if an expanding round is used.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid64/p4a70e2146184ada9f4abde3c1a7514aa/fc018b1d.jpg
Here's the expanded .25 compared to an expanded .45 ACP Winchester 230-gr Ranger T load, RA45T. Were I required to actually carry something in the super small pistols, I think I'd try one of the little .32's or .380's, if reliable.

Best.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Fiocchi FMJ's "feel" like they're a little stronger. I've fired them through a wood 2X4 in my garage a few times. I do think European ammunition is loaded a little hotter than domestic ammunition.
After a close examination of the 2X4, I've always thought that a reliable little Jetfire full of Fiocchi FMJ's would be better than my pocket knife.<shrug> I've got a lot of little pistols. (Big ones, too.:) ) There's a place for Jetfires. (And I don't mean the trash can! :) ) Although I always choose my Seecamp or NAA Guardian for a "walking the dog" gun, I wouldn't feel too bad about taking my Jetfire. I probably wouldn't have to shoot anyway. I've got a BIG Dalmatian and a HUGE Lab/Great Dane mix and they BOTH take a dim view of strange men. For some reason, my Dalmatian wouldn't let a plumber in the house a couple of weeks ago. I figured the Dalmatian might know something I didn't so I kept my hand on the .32 H&R Mag revolver that was in my pocket the whole time that guy was here.

KR
P.S. Look at the occupation line in "Josey's" bio. I think he ought to have a pretty good handle on this subject.

[444]

I am having a hard time envisioning what you could be wearing where a .25 ACP was the ONLY thing you could conceal. I regularly carry a S&W Model 60 in a pocket holster in a pair of shorts with a T-Shirt. I suppose if you were wearing a speedo, you couldn't hide a J-Frame, but then you couldn't hide a .25 either. Even if you were wearing shorts with no shirt you could stick a J-Frame in the front pocket.
I have seen a number of people shot with .25s. My experience is about the same as Stephen's; some were DRT, others laughed it off. I have seen at least two instances of the infamous failure to penetrate the skull. This really isn't a whole lot different than other handgun calibers I guess. Sometimes they work great, sometimes not.
I personally woudn't even entertain the notion of carrying a .25 ACP for self defense. I own a couple of them. They are cute, I like to take them out once in awhile and fire them; but I wouldn't stake my life on them.

[C.R.Sam]

I've posted it before, doin it again.

Maby 3 yrs ago, close to me.

Party 1 and party 2 having a verbal arguement.
Party 1 esclates the situation by shooting party 2 with 25 ACP.
Party 2 takes exception to this and nails party 1 tween the runnin lights with .45 ACP.
Both die.
Party 1 died instantly.
Party 2 died a little later.

25 was fatal. But not a stopper.
.45 ended the fight right now.

Sam

[Johnny Guest]

- - -But certainly better than NOTHING.

I'd certainly rather have a Ruger, Colt, High Standard, or Browning .22 autoloader stoked with high speed ammo than a .25 auto, if I needed to defend myself. For one thing, it is far easier to make good hits with them.

Other side of the coin, it is about as easy to carry a compact 9x19 mm pistol than one of the above sport .22s. No one makes a truly reliable .22 rimfire the size of a Baby Browning, Bauer, or Bernardelli .25. I believe this has much to do with the design of the cartridge - - the skinny, rimmed .22, and the (almost always) jacketed .25 bullet.

All those .25s were designed long ago. We now have some truly compact, larger caliber pocket autos. My KT P32 is lighter, little larger, and certainly more powerful than my old Bauer .25. But, Back In The Day, 30 years ago, the little stainless Bauer was about the best one could do for utter compactness. I bought a set of RCBS dies, handloaded for it, and practiced often.

While I agree about the folly of hitting the forehead with a 50 gr. FMJ, with a decent .25 and some organized practice, two-inch groups at ten feet are pretty easy. That same bullet, pushing 800 fps, entering the orbitl socket, can really ruin an assailant's whole weekend.

FWIW . . . .

Johnny

[sanchezero]

With the advent of the small 9mm pistols (esp the Kahrs) it seems like a moot point anyway.

If you could have a 9mm only a tiny bit bigger than your Jetfire in .25 AbsolutelyCannotPenetrate wouldn't ya feel a bit happier?

:D

[CWL]

Folks, with anything this 'dinky' in caliber, I would humbly suggest FMJ only as penetration is very important.

[Voodoo]

...and it seems many of you are...:D

When my dog gets in the mood to take me for a walk in the middle of the night, I usually just go in whatever I happen to be wearing (I'm not very modest - can't you tell?!?!?) . That being said, I don't know about you guys, but none of my PJ's or boxers have pockets on them. That's why my Jetfire has a Clipdraw on it. The only thing that isn't clipped to me is my Surefire G2, which hangs around my neck on a lanyard.:)

FWIW, I use to have a P32 with pocket clip I use to tote around. For concealed carry, it was awesome. But I had reliability issues with it and sold it off to someone who was willing to live its shortcomings.

[WonderNine]

.25ACP....

MUCH better than a pellet gun :D

[clubsoda22]

hell, i've seen a 9mm not penetrate. Guy was shot in the hip and we could see the bullet sticking out when we cut off his pants. Fell out during the ride to the hospital.

.25 is better than a harsh word. Out of the 1% of social situations you have to shoot, it's a low probability that the guy is whacked out on PCP. Bad GUy sees gun, runs. your .25 had a no shot stop.

[Sox]

I used to think the .25 was ok until I read a post over on another site where the guy was hunting hogs with a .40SW. That just got me to thinking. Now a mad charging hog is one thing, and a determined bad guy another. Both are dangerous right Now! I bet you wouldn't pull that .25 out on the hog now would you. I don't look at the .25 or smaller guns the same after that post. Thats just me though. Thinking guns will intimidate is way dangerous. Good shootin.

[444]

Sox, I have had that same revalation several times. Once I was standing out in public somewhere and I noticed a guy standing there not far from me. And he was REALLY a big guy. Like the size of a NFL lineman. I was carrying a Kel-Tec .32 ACP at the time. The guy was minding his own buisness but for some reason I thought to myself, if that guy suddenly attacked me and I had to shoot, would the .32 do the job ? As has been mentioned countless times, it might. But I had no confidence in it at all while I was looking at this guy.
Another time I was elk hunting. I was sitting in a depression that pretty much hid me from view, but I had a great vantage point for a small area where a number of trails came together. I saw a lot of animals while I was sitting there for several days. One morning I hear a loud crashing through the woods. It sounded like a man walking through the woods and breaking everything in his path, stepping on every fallen limb. Out of the woods comes a beautiful cininmon colored bear. It started sniffing around and gradually came closer and closer. I realized that it was going to eventually come right to me. When it got about 10 yards away, I stood up and started waving my arms at it. It stood up, looked at me like I was some kind of idiot and very slowly walked off the way it came. As the bear was slowly coming toward me, I was a little bit nervous. This is a big animal and if it wanted to, it could tear me apart. I couldn't out run it...... In my hands at the time was a .50 muzzleloader. I knew I could take the bear with it if I need to, but I would have to be cool under pressure because I would get only one shot. This time however, I knew I had enough gun to make me feel comfortable.

[444]

It isn't about the hog or bear getting shot, it is about your mindset and confidence level when you are staring death in the face. If you have no confidence in your weapon, your response might not be the same.

[clubsoda22]

If all i had was a .25 and i was attacked by someone who was linebacker size, I know exactly what i'd do, point at his throat and pull the trigger untill it went click. If you are a good shot, i promise you you'll make a stop.

Personally, I don't like the .25 because it won't penetrate a skull. I know i'm good enough for a quick headshot, and the only thing i'd be concerned about would be it not penetrating the skull. I like my bersa .380. I know it's not a manstopper like a .45, but If i put it in between the eyes i KNOW the Corbon screamers will penetrate and no matter how much crack and PCP is in the guys system, he WILL drop.

I've said this before, the smaller caliber you carry, the better you have to be in the accuracy department. If you carry a .380, you have to know you can get headshots, neck shots, and upper torso. If you pack a .45, you hit the perp just about anywhere, you will mess him up, bigtime.