First Person Shooter Thoughts


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Nightcrawler
August 24, 2003, 05:46 AM
I like first person shooters. Actually, right now they're the only kind of computer games I play.

However, I like some more than others. My favorites are not necessarily the most realistic ones, but I like story-driven shooters. Ones where you can do things besides run around and kill badguys.

(Though that has its own merits.)

One of the biggest beefs I have about them, though, is the weapons you see in many of these games. While a game doesn't have to be super-realistic to be fun, I don't like games where the badguys can take and inordinate number of hits. Oftentimes games will do this for "balance", and "gameplay", but coming from the "one shot, one kill" school of thought.

Games that have bugged me like this?

-Deus Ex: The one sore spot in an otherwise great game. Took no less than SIX hits from the (supposedly 7.62x51mm chambered) carbine to drop a badguy.

-Medal of Honor: Three hits from the M1 Garand to kill your typical Nazi. I don't know of too many guys that'll take a .30-06 through the sternum at 10 feet and shrug it off. Must be those aryan supermen... In any case, the bolt action rifles killed with one shot because their rate of fire was slower.

-Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Granted, a game like this isn't going to be super-realistic to begin with, but come on, it shouldn't take three or four 7.92mm Mauser rifle rounds to drop an unarmored Nazi at close range (with center-of-mass hits).

Games that have been good in this regard:

-Rainbow Six 3: Granted, this is supposed to be a "super realistic" shooter, but one or two shots will usually do it, if you hit the torso.

-Hitman 2: One of the few games where bullets overpenetrate; I like it.

One thing I have to wonder about, though. In some mods for games (especially the Rainbow Six games) you end up with a huge variety of weapons, which is cool, but can a computer game actually model the practical differences between .40S&W and 9mm? 10mm and .45? FMJ and JHP?

The only way I could think of to do it would be to, I don't know, have one round be more likely to incapacitate given a hit at the same range at the same location. For instance, a 10mm would have, say, a 70% chance of incapacitation assuming a center of mass hit at 10 feet, where as a 9x19mm would have only a 50% chance.

Just some early morning ramblings.

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TheeBadOne
August 24, 2003, 07:18 AM
In CounterStrike the weapons have different hit values, and different penetration values. The .50 Desert Eagle is the only pistol that penetrates walls, doors to still cause harm. Harm through a wall/door is less than without.

Nightcrawler
August 24, 2003, 07:22 AM
That's one thing I was really disappointed that they didn't include in Rainbow Six 3: firing through walls. I mean, I'm armed with a FAL (of course), and I can't peg a guy hiding behind a sheet metal fence?

A few games have firing through walls. One Unreal Tournament mod, Tactical Ops, had it to a limited extent...

NewShooter78
August 24, 2003, 08:32 AM
I play on PS2, and the one realistic game when it comes to being shot (one shot one kill) is SOCOM Navy Seals, but only on the expert level. You can pretty much drop anyone with one well placed shot, if it is in the kill zone and not a shot to the leg or arm. The drawback is that it only takes one or two shots to kill you as well.

standingbear
August 24, 2003, 09:40 AM
nightcrawler..an not only that,on the medal of honor series..if you throw a grenade and a dog is running about,it will pick the durn thing up and drop it at your feet,the nazis feet or scamper about till it goes off.counterstrike is a good one,people have found ways to cheat an it spoils the fun for the rest of the players.the day of defeat mod for half life is fair..its ww2 weapons and realistic as it gets.

Wanderer
August 24, 2003, 09:41 AM
Counter Strike is actually good in this regard. An AK is hard to control in full auto, 9mm's usually just wound, a .45 USP is better than the Glock 9mm, and a sniper rifle will kill with one shot.

Hkmp5sd
August 24, 2003, 09:54 AM
MOH - The sniper rifles are one-shot anywhere in the body kills. The 1911 is way underpowered.

Battlefield 1942 - More realistic than most. Sniper rifle hits in non-vital areas do not kill you. Concussions from explosions throw you through the air, but don't necessarily kill you. I've been blown on the roof of some otherwise impossible to get to buildings and had an excellent platform for sniping.

I really like the ability to hop in a tank, boat or even aircraft and use it for both transportation and battle. The average ground pounder won't be able to climb in a fighter and take off, but it does make the game more fun.

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City None of the firearm are realistic, but the game is a blast. Once you get bored with the basic game, you can edit the config files for the various vehicles and weapons and make things interesting. Set the car weight on the police cars to 100 pounds and they roll over when trying to turn corners. Jack the speed up on boats, helicopters and the Dodo.

Hitman 2 Love it except I wish the story line left you as a badguy taking assignments to shoot people along the lines of GTA.

Rainbow Six 3 Still in the early stages.

Iain
August 24, 2003, 10:00 AM
Another vote for Hitman 2, except the rather unrealistic ability to use certain handguns to flip people 20ft through the air. Shotgun is wonderful and the movement on the scope of the sniper rifles is a nice touch. Our hero is able to take a lot of rounds though.

Camel
August 24, 2003, 10:13 AM
Half-Life - I just like blasting aliens.

Max Payne - Not super-realistic but more than most games. You die almost as quick as the BGs. And Bullet-time is the coolest feature Ive seen in an FPS.

Americas Army - Online only but pretty realistic as these things go. You won't get Desert Eagles (Or any pistols) just Army-issue weapons and whatever you can scavenge from OpFor. Hardly any cheating as the Army and Punkbuster take care of it fairly quick. Bullet penetration through doors is very realistic, it counts in about 50 angles and such and I dont pretend to understand it.

AK103K
August 24, 2003, 10:34 AM
I like MOH Frontline (PSII) the best so far as far the firearm aspects go. The workings of the weapons reflect pretty close to actual guns. I've heard the complaints of the three round hit with both the .30 and 7.92 guns, but if you really look at the hits, were they really solid hits or were they a peripheral shots on a moving target? MOH also allows pretty realistic leads at various ranges on moving targets and reflects hits the same. I think if you really make a good hit, it reflects it with a "drop" where as if it was a marginal hit, the target will stagger and you have to keep hitting it. The suppressed .22 is also pretty realistic as to power, and accuracy due to the suppressor. The shotgun is also peretty accurate in hits, power, and range respects. The submachine guns reflect pistol power and full auto control issues and hits at range and rounds fired in one burst, etc. My only real bitch is not being able to "shoot thru" things, such as doors and walls, but hey, its a game. :) I think they had some pretty good advisors in the weapons department. Its a fun addictive game.

Justin
August 24, 2003, 11:04 AM
The only way I could think of to do it would be to, I don't know, have one round be more likely to incapacitate given a hit at the same range at the same location. For instance, a 10mm would have, say, a 70% chance of incapacitation assuming a center of mass hit at 10 feet, where as a 9x19mm would have only a 50% chance. Yeah, but then you run into the problem of debating whether caliber x is more effective than caliber y. Seems to me it'd be better to accurately map out where on the enemy model a shot is going to be a kill or a wound. In other words, a head shot always kills, COM has a very very high probability, and hits in the extremities simply wound. A lot of games do this already, but then mess it up by trying to fight the caliber debate all over again and assign a certain amount of 'stopping power' to them.

AK103K
August 24, 2003, 11:13 AM
Seems to me it'd be better to accurately map out where on the enemy model a shot is going to be a kill or a wound. In other words, a head shot always kills, COM has a very very high probability, and hits in the extremities simply wound.

The problem here is, nothing is a "guaranteed" anything. Head shots or COM hits dont always mean a one shot instant kill. What might kill one may not kill another, so its more realistic to just keep shooting reguardless of what you "think" your hits should be doing. Just be glad you get to try again if you screw up. :)

BHPshooter
August 24, 2003, 11:45 AM
Can I interject something here?

What really bugs me about video games is that whenever you need to reload (with a few exceptions), the magazine is replaced and the action is worked, whether the gun is empty or not. The action never locks back when empty.

As I said, there are exceptions to this, as with the pistol in Halo. When you're empty, the slide locks back, the magazine is replaced, and the slide release is used. When you're NOT empty, the magazine is replaced.

Of course, I've still yet to see a game where you can have 8 (or whatever) in the mag and one in the chamber, but I suppose I'm just getting really anal retentive. :uhoh:

But Medal of Honor sure is fun. :D

Wes

Gewehr98
August 24, 2003, 11:55 AM
I really enjoy using the Redeemer when I find it. I fire it from a hidden position, orbit around the top of the map, then dive down onto unsuspecting players from the opposite side. :)

cool45auto
August 24, 2003, 12:45 PM
Hkmp5sd, how do you reconfingure the files for Vice City? I'm playing it on PS2 by the way.

I play MOH: Frontline a lot. I think you guys are right, if its not a good solid hit the BG's just shrug it off. I try to use the sniper rifles and go for head shots as much as possible. I love the way the weapons are portrayed. Very realistic looking.

Double Maduro
August 24, 2003, 01:23 PM
I have played a lot of MOHAA and Spearhead and have talked to many people that run the servers.

In MOH or Spearhead you can set the power of the weapons. In some servers the "Home team" has set one of the weapons for one of the teams to be more effective, and all of the weapons for the opfor to be less effective. Ever notice that on some servers the clan that runs it are all using smg's and are on one side?

By the way, I think that the term kill is kind of misleading, what they mean is "incapacitated". There aren't to many people that can take a 30-06 to the leg or arm and still remain effective combatants.

I do have a problem with being able to hit someone across the map with a 1911 however. I played on one server where the BAR had 300 rounds and fired at the rate of a minigun. The weapons can be tweaked to some really bizarre settings.

Most of the servers that have a good realism mod have addressed many of these issues.

I have never seen a dog in either AA or Spearhead, must be someones mod.

I have recently been playing Battlefield 1942 and I think it pretty much sucks. Most of the time it is impossible to tell where incoming fire is coming from. Most of the people just want to fly around and try to drop bombs on stuff. Those that don't want to fly jump into tanks and run around. This is a game that is designed for teamwork. Not many people work as teams. It is almost impossible to get someone to be an engineer or a medic. And no one wants to be infantry and run around on foot.

If you guys want a good AA or Spearhead server go to

204.0.127.11 for Spearhead
204.0.127.12 for AA

and give them a try.

We run scanners so don't bring any cheats with you and please don't use dialups. The servers kick high pingers. We also don't allow any foul language, racism or dirty names. These are good, clean, fun servers and we welcome anyone that wants to play a good clean, fun, game.

CYA there,
DM

Valkman
August 24, 2003, 01:33 PM
Ghost Recon is another good one, especially as the sniper. Then there's one scenario where there's alot of "trap zones" where if you go in there you bring lots of BG's down on your head. So I take a guy with a silenced M4 and sneak around and pick everyone off - lots of fun!

I love all the Rainbow 6 games, Half-Life and still have a special place in my heart for my first first-person shooter, DOOM! :D

Hkmp5sd
August 24, 2003, 01:40 PM
Hkmp5sd, how do you reconfingure the files for Vice City? I'm playing it on PS2 by the way.

Dunno on the PS2. With the PC version, you can open the .cfg files with any text editor manually make changes or download one of the interface programs that lets you make the adjustments.

agricola
August 24, 2003, 02:07 PM
lol

this thread came around at least twice on TFL :D

Battlefield 1942: great game, unfortunately cheats are managing to find a foothold here (anyone whos seen the "superman" feat knows this). Teamwork does suck, but one of the rewarding aspects is that the lone wolf sniper can rack up tens of kills by targetting the plane campers, especially on the El Alamein / Gazala / Bocage maps. CTF is also far, far better than Conquest. The best server is found by setting a filter for "bred" (under name) and "ctf" (under gamestyle) - agri can be found as "venerable bede" there on the 48 player CTF server that I cannot spell.

BF does have really great support from EA though, especially as its free-to-play once you buy the game.

Operation Flashpoint: quite simply, the best game ever made with regards to war - think BF1942, but with modern tanks, APC, MICV, anti-aircraft, helos, planes, masses of guns and explosives, huge (as in tens of miles) maps, plus open-ended in terms of how you achieve the mission. Need to avoid a roadblock? Well, nick a civilian bike from a house and go dirtbiking through a forest, or snipe the roadblock guys while your special forces comrades ambush the reinforcements with mines/LAWs/Carl Gustavs/satchel charges, or just run away from it, or run to the nearby helo base, kill the guards and steal a Hind. There is no excuse not to have it, especially now its much cheaper than when it came out.

MOHAA: aside from the Omaha Beach level, I was really disappointed with this.

Morrowind: not a FPS, but I love it anyway.

Telperion
August 24, 2003, 02:15 PM
Things that bother me about the state of PC FPS:

1. You always know exactly how rounds are in your magazine. Granted, one can count, but it is harder when people are shooting back at you. Or, I guess special operators have better training than me. :)

2. When doing a mag change, ammo gets re-allocated to your new magazines as if rounds were like water you can pour between different containers. Having two half-filled 30 rounders is not the same as a full mag and an empty one, and it takes significant time to convert from one situation to the other.

3. Static maps. I hate it when some guy figures out just after a game starts, if he moves to a specific location, fires his grenade launcher at specific pixel in the sky, at the right time, he can hit the opposing team half-way across the map as they are deploying themselves. He can't actually see the opposing team, so the only way he knows this is via trial and error. It would be cool if terrain features were subtly and randomly altered every round. This way, the game would test tactical fieldcraft a little better.

Zundfolge
August 24, 2003, 02:35 PM
I've been spoiled by Infiltration (http://infiltration.sentrystudios.net/) ... if nothing else because it uses actual iron sight aiming instead of the goofy floating crosshair.

I just wish the development team would get the latest version finished (its only over a year late). Also a well developed singler player campaign would be real cool too.



pipsqueak, most of your complaints dissapear in Infiltration.

Moparmike
August 24, 2003, 03:49 PM
I am a huge fan of MOH, I have been playing it since it first came out on PS1.

PC:

MOHAA: My major beef about this one is the retardation of the people you have to protect. They all have "superman" complex and a glass jaw. (i.e. the tank crew you have to protect: "Dum de dum, I am going to go shoot at that tank with my garand...") The cool part is that you can shoot them out of frustration and it doesnt hurt them.:D :rolleyes: Like previously mentioned, the 1911 is seriously underpowered, yet the suppressed Luger is deadly anywhere on the opponet, even with "sniper"-like shots.:scrutiny:

Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast: Great game. Desann is easily defeated if you know how, but it takes timing and luck. Really fun gripping Stormtroopers and dropping them off the nearest cliff, or using them as human sheilds. Imperial Officers are just as Recto-Cranially inverted as on the movies. I want a Yoda-go-midevil-on-your-imperial-a$$ cheat :D :cool: .

TFC: Good game, but I imagine that if a bazooka hit me from any distance, I would be dead.

Can you change the .cfg files on GTA III too?

DigMe
August 24, 2003, 04:34 PM
Max Payne - Not super-realistic but more than most games. You die almost as quick as the BGs. And Bullet-time is the coolest feature Ive seen in an FPS.

Camel,

Last I looked Max Payne was third person.

brad cook

the_redstar_swl
August 24, 2003, 05:01 PM
to Thefumegator
i have found a PC game that is called soldier of fortune II
when you use the 1911a1 it sets the mag ammo at 8+1 be cos the GG loads a Round and then he loads the mag

my favorite fps games are rite now:
counter-strike
the Battlefield 1942 Secret Weapons of WWII Demo
XIII demo
and Freedom fighters

MAKOwner
August 24, 2003, 05:32 PM
MOH - The sniper rifles are one-shot anywhere in the body kills. The 1911 is way underpowered. Not true in multiplayer anyway, extremity hits do not kill in one shot with any of the available multiplayer weapons


The easy fix for Mohaa weak weapon damage stuff is to play on realism mod servers only. There are different realism mods, with different levels, and then there are custom ones. You'll see abbreviations for the mods in the server name, CKR, CHR, MPSH, etc. Just find a good clan server that has settings you like and stick with it. That makes the games much more enjoyable, most of the mods have the rifles set much more appropriately (and all at the same levels usually, unlike in the stock game where weapons of the same caliber even were drastically different), one hit in the chest usually kills, if it doesn't one more anywhere else certainly will. The SMGs can kill in 2-3 hits so burst fire is effective, the MGs are very effective, etc. Makes all the difference in the game. However, it still has it's problems. Most of the weapons are too accurate when you're running, there is not shouldering of your weapon, etc.

The game that looks to be the answer to this is Call of Duty, coming out in a month or so. It is made by most all the crew responsible for Mohaa (apparently they all quit and formed a new company...) This one looks much better. There is iron sight aiming, ie right clicking to use the weapons sights for long range (and unlike AA or similar with just a 2d image of the sights, you actually use the sights on the weapon model with the correct POV (unlike Infiltration which has the sights too far away)). Tthere is also a spreading crosshair when not aiming that looks like it makes shots on the run much more realistic, there is going prone, etc. All in all it looks very similar to mohaa only obviously upgraded in the graphics, with even better attention to realism. Hopefully everything pans out. If you go to www.gamespy.com and look around for their previews on CoD, they have a recent gameplay video that lasts a couple minutes, around 40 megs. Gives you a real feel for the game, looks awesome IMO... Also seems to have more weapons than mohaa or spearhead (the Bren I believe it is is shown later in the gamespy video I mentioned...) {EDIT - here's the link to the video if anyone is interested, hosted on fileplanet so you'll have to wait in line... http://www.fileplanet.com/files/120000/129186.shtml }


Raven Shield would be the greatest game out bar none if it had blasted iron sight aiming and not that lame zoom... It just reallu ups the level of the feel of immersion when you actually have to aim without a magical dot on the screen...

Nightcrawler
August 24, 2003, 11:13 PM
Justin: Problem is, if one caliber doesn't perform any different in the game than another, what's the point of having different calibers?

Hkmp5sd
August 25, 2003, 06:26 AM
Not true in multiplayer anyway, extremity hits do not kill in one shot with any of the available multiplayer weapons

Really? Guess that means I'm a better shot than I though. :)

dinosaur
August 25, 2003, 08:01 AM
N64`s 007 although dated, is one of the best FPS` ever made. You could adjust the vulnerability of the BGs to almost invincibility. It`s been awhile since I played it but the weapons power varied quite a bit too. There was one semi auto pistol (not the Golden Gun) you picked up from the BGs that was not only powerful, but loud as heck. One shot kills were common while the issued PPK took multiple shots unless you made a head shot.

The M16 was powerful but one of my favorite weapons was the throwing knife. It took a bit of practice but for silent kills it was fun. With enough practice even long distance throws were effective.

Wanderer
August 25, 2003, 08:18 AM
If you're gonna play on the N64, pick up Perfect Dark. There is nothing like taking cover behind a box and pushing it closer to the bot you're fighting while returning fire to the bot behind you. Halo is good, but the "Assault Rifle" (yeah, they still say it in the 2500's) which is chambered in 7.62 take multiple hits to take anyone down, including Grunts. I usually trade my rifle for a sniper rifle and use my pistol for close to mid-range combat. :rolleyes: I can't wait for the Battle Rifle in Halo 2, It has a longer range and more accuracy including a scope, and looks semi-auto. :evil:

Devonai
August 25, 2003, 09:35 AM
The most realistic weapons handling that I've seen would have to go to Firearms for Half-Life (http://www.firearmsmod.com/).

Let's say you're using the M16A2. You'll start with a 30-round magazine, one in the chamber, 29 in the mag. But if you hit reload, you will replace the magazine with a full one for a total of 30+1. The magazine with 29 rounds gets shuffled to the rear (it will be the last one). Each partial magazine is saved, even if it only has one round in it. Only empty magazines are discarded.

Furthermore, if you have two partially full magazines, you can merge the contents. This takes a few seconds, but will top off at least one of the magazines and/or discard whichever one becomes empty.

The same goes for all rifles, shotguns, and pistols, with the exception of the Benelli M1 (tube loaded) and the Colt Python (speed-loaded).

Bolts and slides all lock back after the last round, with the exception of the H&K G3 and MP5, which include animations of your character manually locking the charging handle to the rear.

My only gripe about this mod is that body armor is unrealistically effective. If damage was more like Day of Defeat, it would be more enjoyable and result in less "Rambo-ing."

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